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NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode
- yellow_lead 2y agoAre the two other gyros broken?
- solarkraft 2y agoThe others are broken, two theoretically work. They're disabling one to keep as a spare.
- MobiusHorizons 2y agoHubble was down to three working gyros, but one broke. This new single gyro mode, lets them take the other offline so that they can hold it in reserve for when this one breaks
- wongarsu 2y agoBreaking gyros are a recurring issue for Hubble. Hubble has 6 (3 spares, 3 for full operation). They replaced them 3 times with space shuttle missions because they kept breaking. Now Hubble is down to 2 functioning gyros again and we no longer have a space craft with the capability to service satellites. They decided to shut one of the gyros off so they still have a slightly used spare once this one breaks.
- jccooper 2y agoDragon has capability for a Hubble servicing mission. It would need more development than a Shuttle visit, but it's not a huge hurdle since the last visit installed a soft-capture mechanism. (It'd probably cost less than an equivalent Shuttle mission, just due to Shuttle's high launch costs.) SpaceX even prepared a proposal in a Space Act Agreement but NASA declined it recently. Sierra Nevada also has looked at doing it with Dream Chaser. Sure, Hubble's way past its design lifetime, and it can probably limp along for another decade as is, and maybe something besides gyros will fail soon. But also there's no equivalent capability successor that's more than a study, and even if they manage to build HWO or something like it, it won't be operation for at least 20 years. A Hubble servicing mission would be a relatively cheap way to get a decade or two more time on a high-capability instrument.
- nick238 2y agoThe Nancy Grace Roman telescope is a replacement in most respects, though it doesn't have the deep UV capabilities (HST could go down to 115 nm, Roman goes down to 480 nm). Not sure why UV isn't as important to newer telescopes, but if it was as critical to have high-spatial-resolution UV measurements, they'd probably have flown one in addition to Webb and Roman.
- SergeAx 2y agoServicing Hubble require EVA. Does Dragon has an airlock?
- dredmorbius 2y agoOld-school space-walks involved depressurising the capsule. Soyuz, Gemini. Some of the Apollo missions had an EVA during the return transit to recover cameras on the exterior of the Command Module (CM). Those spacewalks occurred on Apollo 15 (see: <https://www.space.com/20565-al-worden-apollo-15-astronaut.html https://www.space.com/20565-al-worden-apollo-15-astronaut.ht...>) and Apollo 9, which didn't land on the Moon (see: <https://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/missions/apollo/apollo_9/ https://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/missions/apollo/apollo_9/>). According to this Stackexchange post, the entire CM was depressurised: <https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/38239/how-did-apollo-15s-depressurization-work https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/38239/how-did-apol...> During lunar landings, EVAs also required full depressurisation of the Lunar Module. Repressurisation took about two minutes: <https://www.nasa.gov/history/alsj/alsj-ECSQuickRef.html https://www.nasa.gov/history/alsj/alsj-ECSQuickRef.html>
- SergeAx 2y agoOkay, can Dragon be depressurized and then repressurized back? Somehow I think it will require a lot of additions to its construction, and also alternative hatch instead of docking module (was already done with transparent dome for Inspiration4 mission.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
- justsocrateasin 2y ago"My kind didn't really slither out of a tidal pool, did we? God, I need to believe you created me: we are so small down here." Lillie Emery What a beautiful image
- shagie 2y agoTangentially related (taking pictures of things on spacecraft with impaired systems for tracking the objective)... https://llis.nasa.gov/lesson/394 https://llis.nasa.gov/lesson/394 > The Voyager 2 scan platform, on which are mounted the spacecraft cameras and several science instruments, is rotated in elevation and azimuth by actuators. Near the end of the Voyager 2 Saturn encounter, the scan platform azimuth actuator exhibited an anomaly. This anomaly was evidenced by the azimuth actuator seizing, causing a scan platform pointing error that resulted in a loss of some data. Through a series of ground commands, the problem was alleviated to the extent that the scan platform could perform its function. ... https://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/27/us/camera-swivel-on-voyager-sticks-while-craft-passes-behind-saturn.html https://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/27/us/camera-swivel-on-voyag... https://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/28/us/swivel-on-voyager-still-misbehaving.html https://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/28/us/swivel-on-voyager-stil... Voyager engineering improvements for Uranus encounter - https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19860063178 https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19860063178 > Finally, engineering improvements made in order to enhance scientific findings at the Uranus encounter are reviewed in detail. The two most important were the increased gyro drift turn rate capability to accommodate image motion compensation for the close fly-by of Miranda and the reduction in spacecraft rates to accommodate increased imaging exposure times without incurring excessive image smear.
- cubefox 2y agoNaive question: Today, smartphones use microscopic gyroscopes based on MEMS (micro-electromechanical systems) technology. Would these also work on Hubble? I suspect they'd work fine in space, perhaps while also being more durable (the failing Hubble gyroscopes were only installed in 2009). Though I guess their precision is not good enough for a telescope.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bordakt 2y agoYou are thinking of the sensor in smartphones, in this case it is a spinning disc that uses gyroscopic torque to rotate the spacecraft.
- cubefox 2y agoSo there are two different technologies that are both called "gyroscope"? One a sensor detecting rotation, the other an actuator inducing rotation?
- olleromam91 2y agoThe sensor you’re describing is usually called an accelerometer.
- cubefox 2y agoNo, accelerometers detect acceleration in linear direction (up/down, left/right, forward/backward), while gyroscopes detect rotation (pitch, yaw, roll). Smartphones have both, to detect all six degrees of freedom. Edit: Apparently, for smartphones, all these sensors are integrated into a single MEMS chip, one sensor for each degree of freedom, three accelerometers and three gyroscopes: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9X4frIQo7x0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=9X4frIQo7x0
- 2y ago
- BurningFrog 2y agoI just think it's sad that they're doing fixes on a 34 year old telescope instead of sending up a new improved model every 10 years.
- moffkalast 2y agoWell the JWST is in fact a thing. Why not keep getting science from the old ones while they're still working? NASA really needs to just fill their telescopes with gyros upon gyros, like just plaster the things with gyros and reaction wheels for 50x redundancy since that's always the mission critical thing that fails first. Or maybe a xenon powered ion reaction control system or something that would last longer then hydrazine.
- gammarator 2y ago> NASA really needs to just fill their telescopes with gyros upon gyros It’s an interesting tradeoff. Missions are designed (and costed) for a nominal mission lifetime; adding more redundancy increases costs. But it’s true that the successful missions tend to stay in operations much longer than their normal lifetime.
- Dylan16807 2y agoThe builtin gyros didn't even reach the original mission lifetime of 15 years. There's a limit to how much redundancy you can put in a satellite, but with how consistently these parts fail it would make sense to put in a lot. If 1% of the Hubble's weight was extra gyroscopes it would have 30-40 of them.
- svachalek 2y agoJWST is an infrared telescope though, which doesn't really replace the Hubble. It is suited for the interesting science of our times though. An upgraded optical space telescope would probably be less groundbreaking but still very valuable to science.
- SiempreViernes 2y agoI think its sad that single use consumerism culture is so pervasive that anyone would actually bemoan a thing as extremely niche as a cutting edge scientific instrument getting over tens years of use.
- barbegal 2y agoThere's a technical description of how the one gyro control system here https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20080023344/downloads/20080023344.pdf https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20080023344/downloads/20... Essentially using other sensors (star tracker and magnetometer) and kalman filtering for sensor fusion.
- zootboy 2y agoVery cool that they were developing the one-gyro control mode all the way back in 2004, and had in-flight tested it by 2008. Seems like they were well prepared for this eventuality.
- pavon 2y agoThat's because this isn't the first time Hubble has been down to two working gyros. It happened before in 1999 (replaced a few months later), and they were worried it would happen again after 2003 when the Shuttles were grounded (actually got down to three/six working before replacement in 2009).
- gclawes 2y agoI wonder if after Polaris Dawn proves out spacewalking from Dragon, SpaceX will develop the capability to repair the Hubble once again. I doubt it'll be from spacewalks on Dragon, given they probably can't support something as big as an MMU (unless they pull a really cool hat trick), but maybe with Starship. I get that at some point it's more worthwhile to launch a new telescope (maybe one of those donated KENNENs from NRO), but Hubble is a big symbol of space exploration, and SpaceX is all about big symbols...
- nxobject 2y agoWho would notice if they just quietly switched Hubble out with its military equivalent? /s
- 2y ago
- Synaesthesia 2y agoThat’s a really spectacular image.
- foxyv 2y agoThis thing went up when I was in Kindergarten! It blows my mind that it's still running.
- jeffrallen 2y agoYou think that's amazing, read up on Voyager!
- unchocked 2y agoMissing from the article: Jared Isaacman offered to fix Hubble for free, and NASA turned him down.
- josefresco 2y ago>It basically seems like the risks involved aren't necessarily worth taking right now, seeing as Hubble is technically doing just fine. *https://www.space.com/jared-isaacman-hubble-space-telescope-reboost https://www.space.com/jared-isaacman-hubble-space-telescope-...
- Log_out_ 2y agoWho needs proper gyros, just give nasa three rumble packs.
- codexb 2y agoIt's pictures like this that seem to make Dark Matter not all that mysterious. It's clear that the galaxy is surrounded by a lot of dust, and you can clearly see that even as you extend outward and the light drops off, there is still a lot of dust that is just not illuminated.
- Laremere 2y agoDust that isn't in light is accounted for, and is a different thing from non-baryonic dark matter. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryonic_dark_matter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryonic_dark_matter
- hagbard_c 2y agoHey SpaceX, here's an idea: put a few of your 'Atlas' robots on one of the upcoming Starship test vehicles - maybe the one where you plan to test in-orbit refuelling since it probably takes a bit of extra fuel to get to Hubble's orbit - and get the thing to meet up with Hubble. Have the robots replace the failed gyros, replace the batteries and whatever other consumables that old relic contains. Have them take back the old parts in Starship so they can be studied. The result would be revived Hubble as well as one of the biggest PR coups imaginable. Or, maybe, one of the biggest hits against human space flight if it turns out robots can do the job well enough not to have to send up their meat-based masters, take your pick.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoWould Hubble fit in Starship for a return flight to ground? Would look nice hanging in the Smithsonian. Flight proven space observatory.
- lupusreal 2y agoWhat even is the point of looking at space if we give up the pretext of sending people there? It just turns into an expensive way to mint PhDs on the taxpayer's dime, studying things which cannot have economic relevance on Earth (which is why they can't be studied on Earth.)
- arlort 2y agoThere's more important things in the universe than those which have economic relevance. In fact studying things which have no apparent economic relevance is one of the best uses of government dime and has been so, to the great benefit of humanity as a whole, for centuries if not millennia
- Laremere 2y agoJared Isaacman and SpaceX already made a proposal to NASA to do a Hubble servicing mission. NASA recently responded with "no thanks". NASA feels the risk of potentially damaging Hubble in some way (eg, gas from thruster getting on a mirror) outweighs the benefits. Basically a high probability of worse performance is chosen to be more favorable than a lower probability of better performance.
- zdragnar 2y agoThis is amazing, though not quite as amazing as how I first read the title (sandwich, not device).
- system2 2y agoWhat will happen when the last gyro is out? Will it spin out of orbit and crash?
- RecycledEle 2y agoIt baffles me that nobody in the US Government can see opportunities and take advantage of them. SpaceX's Starship could house one huge telescope. If I had a say in NASA's appropriations, money would flow into building a Starship-sized telescope for every spectrum we could think of. There are other scientific instruments that Starship can house. It's not too late to start. Congress could appropriate money to build and many Starship-sized instruments as they can come up with. Follow KISS principles and use the same steel Starship is made of instead of carbon fiber where possible. If on-orbit refueling works, Starship can place them on the far side of the moon or at Lagrange points.
- Mr_Minderbinder 2y agoLossless PNG and TIFF versions available from this site: https://hubblesite.org/contents/media/images/2024/026/01J0P4K5EMNAM5M171KN6QKT38 https://hubblesite.org/contents/media/images/2024/026/01J0P4... It's a nice image but it looks like there are some FPN issues.
- datadrivenangel 2y agoThe magic of hot fixes in production.
- madaxe_again 2y agoI’d love to see some actual data on this - what’s the impact on resolution, maximum exposure time, etc.?
- aejm 2y ago“Once Hubble is on target, the steadiness of the telescope in one-gyro mode is almost comparable to that of a full three-gyro complement… Although one-gyro mode is an excellent way to keep Hubble science operations going, it does have limitations, which include a small decrease in efficiency (roughly 12 percent) due to the added time required to slew and lock the telescope onto a science target… If Earth or the moon block two of the fixed head star trackers’ fields of view, Hubble must move further along in its orbit until the star trackers can see the sky and its stars again. This process encroaches upon science observation time. Second, the additional time the fine guidance sensors take to further search for the guide stars adds to the total time the sensors use to complete the acquisition. Third, in one-gyro mode Hubble has some restrictions on the science it can do. For example, Hubble cannot track moving objects that are closer to Earth than the orbit of Mars. Their motion is too fast to track without the full complement of gyros. Additionally, the reduced area of sky that Hubble can point to at any given time also reduces its flexibility to see transient events or targets of opportunity like an exploding star or an impact on Jupiter. When combined, these factors may yield a decrease in productivity of roughly 20 to 25 percent from the typical observing program conducted in the past using all three gyros.“ [0] [0] https://science.nasa.gov/mission/hubble/observatory/design/hubble-one-gyro-mode/ https://science.nasa.gov/mission/hubble/observatory/design/h...
- SoftTalker 2y agoIt was launched 34 years ago with a 15-year expected service life. So that it's still operating at all today is quite an achievement.
- dylan604 2y agoThe impact on Jupiter bit seems strange to me. Unless it's something that just pops up out of nowhere, it seems like we'd have been tracking the impactor for some time to be able to have plenty of lead time for Hubble to use its walker to slowly get into position.
- temptemptemp111 2y ago[dead]
- EncomLab 2y agoPretty incredible what they are able to do with a i486!
- bongodongobob 2y agoIs it though? All you'd need to control some gyros is a microcontroller. I can't imagine it'd be more than a couple hundred lines of code implementing a PID controller or something. In fact, you could probably do it with standalone controllers, some sensors and relays.
- ramon156 2y agoOkay, now add in the fact it can practically never fail in any condition
- kevvok 2y agoHell, even the JWST is powered by the same CPU as the first iMac running at half the speed
- tanbog45 2y agoWe used to get quake and Warcraft running on them from memory. It was - is! - a great chip.
- pezezin 2y agoQuake was the first game to make heavy usage of the FPU and thus require a Pentium. You could run it on a 486 DX, but the performance would be atrocious.
- Freebytes 2y agoI had a hard time getting Doom to run on my 486. I only had something like 4MB of RAM if I recall correctly so I had to restart my computer, edit the AUTOEXEC.BAT to remove options that I would use to load Windows, and then boot back into DOS to launch DOOM each time I wanted to play it to get that last bit of memory I needed. Then, when I wanted to run Windows, I had to edit the HIMEM.SYS stuff to get it running again. (I was a teenager with no Internet access. I have no idea how I figured out this stuff or where I got information from.)
- tonetegeatinst 2y agoNASA has such a tiny budget in comparison to other stuff....so they really have to stretch that money as far as they can, and especially considering spacecraft....its a very unforgiving production environment. Am I making a joke about deploying in production? Yes, yes I am. But I also know NASA really does the best they can and I am amazed at the insane work and effort that they do to make sure spacecraft they send actually work.
- fallingknife 2y agoThere's a billionaire who has offered to do a repair mission. NASA considers this too risky to let some random guy go up there and fix it. If they worked together on a plan I feel like they could get this done in a way that reduces the risk, but it seems like they just don't want to.
- dotnet00 2y agoIt's worth adding that the proposal was mainly for reboosting the telescope, which can still be done later if needed. Trying to EVA and work on Hubble would be very risky right now with Dragon since you have to vent the entire capsule first, and this creates all sorts of optics contamination risks. They're also balancing this against upcoming technologies, possible cost reductions and the much improved capabilities of ground based telescopes due to advanced adaptive optics.
- fallingknife 2y agoCouldn't they vent the capsule well before docking with Hubble? I assume the contamination comes from venting the capsule nearby the telescope.
- dotnet00 2y agoThey could, but it might be considered risky or maybe outright not possible with the current design, since the EVA hoses would be different from the ones normally used within the capsule. It isn't that the problems can't be solved, just that NASA doesn't think it's worth working on just yet. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if they're hoping to get government funding so that they can be the controlling party (vs a private mission, where, ultimately, they have to compromise with the specific things Isaacman would be willing to fund and within the timeline within which he's willing to keep funding).
- qrush 2y agoIn case anyone just wants the download: https://science.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/hubble-ngc1546-stsci-h-p24026a-f-4032x3701-1.jpg https://science.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/hubble-n...
- system2 2y agoI thought NASA was using Drupal, not WordPress.
- jagger27 2y agoHubble is such a productive piece of an equipment. What a shame there has been only one pointing outwards all these years.
- LeifCarrotson 2y agoIt's a sad state of affairs that we as a society have only been able to prioritize sending up one single Hubble, while the US alone has sent up several dozen equivalent KH-9 and superior KH-11 satellites to look at Earth for classified military purposes. I know there are other space-based telescopes (James Webb being larger and superior, others being much smaller and more specialized than Hubble) and lots of ground-based telescopes. I don't dispute that keeping an eye on Soviet missile development and other spy satellite tasks was and is an important mission that has significant, immediate consequences for our species than the informative and gorgeous photos of space that the Hubble mission produces. I'm just disappointed that the combination of human nature and politics makes this a reasonable outcome.
- mturmon 2y agoIt's not quite that bad. Hubble is primarily optical wavelengths. The other Great [space-based] Observatories are in IR, X-rays, and gamma rays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Observatories_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Observatories_program The notion of grouping them as "Great Observatories", AFAIK, came circa the mid-1980s, after Hubble was already getting underway in earnest.
- aaronblohowiak 2y ago*were, for spitzer and Compton
- system2 2y agoJWST took 20 years to build. Could be many more but still not bad at all.
- 1970-01-01 2y ago>What a shame there has been only one pointing outwards all these years. Let's not forget that initially it was considered a massive failure. There simply was no way for NASA to build another in the 90s. What's truly remarkable is how the ROI went from unknown, to negative, and then was a massive long-term success.
- jgalt212 2y agoScott Manley recently did a video on Hubble's single gyro mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra2IpumLMfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra2IpumLMfs