17 ms·

How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

408 points by Aaronn 2y ago

23B1 2y ago
I'd be curious to hear about stories of this working in the U.S., if ever.
- promiseofbeans 2y ago
  Sadly, the US doesn't seem to have particularly great consumer guarantees - you just have to rely on warranties given as an extra marketing point by a company. In more developed countries like Australia, NZ, and the UK, warranties last less time than the guarantee offered by consumer law and only exist to try and confuse consumers into not asking for repairs after the warranty expires (but not necessarily the consumer law guarantee)
  - 23B1 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - ktallett 2y ago
      It is a shame that this is needed to be said but in many laws it is true. Employment, consumer, health, and prisoner come to mind.
      - kelnos 2y ago
        The definition of "developed country" doesn't really track those metrics, though. It's more about economy, level of technology and general infrastructure commonly available, etc.
        sofixa 2y ago
        > and general infrastructure commonly available Banking being stuck in the 19th century but with apps, healthcare being generally unaffordable, a near total lack of affordable transit options, etc etc etc
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  From my understanding, small claims court in the US can be particularly effective because sending a company representative there costs more than just refunding the product. However, I suspect that if something breaks out of warranty, you don't have a legal right to get it replaced/repaired.
- zamalek 2y ago
  In the US the consumer would be taken to court instead. /s
  - denton-scratch 2y ago
    "In soviet Russia, party comes to YOU."
- criddell 2y ago
  There have been a few stories on HN over the years of people taking advantage of arbitration that so many companies insist on. Here’s one, but there are others as well: https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbitration/ https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbi...
Tistron 2y ago
Does anyone know whether and how this translates to other places in the world? For me, it's the most interesting with EU/Sweden. We don't have courts like this do we?
- gwd 2y ago
  I've got a friend who claims to have sued dozens of companies in the equivalent in the UK; he called it "Small Claims Court", but perhaps it has a more specific technical name. Here's an example: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/making-a-small-claim/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-syste...
  - seabass-labrax 2y ago
    Apparently they are no longer called 'small claims' officially, but everyone I know still calls them that. The N1 form is to be sent by post[1] and there is also an online version which can be used in some cases[2]. [1]: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65eb13af62ff489bab87b36d/N1_0622_save.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65eb13af62ff4... [2]: https://www1.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility https://www1.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility
- deugtniet 2y ago
  Here you go :-) https://e-justice.europa.eu/42/EN/small_claims?SWEDEN&member=1 https://e-justice.europa.eu/42/EN/small_claims?SWEDEN&member... This link also contains a reference for all other EU member states
  - Tistron 2y ago
    Cool, thank you!
- BoredPositron 2y ago
  The ESCP can be an option. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_small_claims_procedure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_small_claims_proced...
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
I predict that this is going to get more and more common: Companies enshittify their service, hiding behind impenetrable walls of AI chatbots and useless outsourced template-reply service centers, customers respond by taking one attempt to resolve it with the company and then straight to court. If you have a working small claims court system, I can recommend giving it a try. It can be way less frustrating than trying to deal with a company that just doesn't want to.
- gosub100 2y ago
  They're rolling out the arbitration clauses like mad recently though. There was an HN post a few years ago about going to arbitration and winning, so it's not a complete lost cause but I guess the damages would be less.
  - eadler 2y ago
    pre-dispute arbitration agreements is still worse for consumers in almost every possible way: https://arbitrationinformation.org/docs/problems/ https://arbitrationinformation.org/docs/problems/
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
    Arbitration is great for companies for multiple reasons: - it avoids costly class actions in "big" cases - it avoids costly discovery in "big" cases - it avoids sky-high damages claims in extreme cases - it allows small everyday fuck-ups to be handled more cheaply than a court However, I'd argue that for this kind of issue, arbitration isn't necessarily worse. Especially in a clear-cut case, you don't need the court to win, you just need the court to trigger an escalation at the company. Arbitration is good enough for that.
    - gosub100 2y ago
      I admit I'm too lazy to Google, but are arbitration services regulated, so that if they flagrantly refused to rule in favor of a plaintiff in a case where (999/1000) lawyers would agree, can the arbitration service be sent to review the same way a doctor or lawyer could be disciplined? I can't imagine how you could legally sign over the right to sue to an agency that fails to apply basic principles of justice.
thisislife2 2y ago
This is the way. You just need to be patient. Threatening to file a case with the consumer court (India) often gets a better response from big businesses. Though, I am surprised why you are allowed to sue the retailer here (unless they were selling the product under their own brand name)?
- spacebanana7 2y ago
  Many countries place the regulatory burden on the importer/retailer of products to make enforcement easier. It can be difficult to directly sue a foreign manufacturer but importers and retailers tend to have domestic legal entities that can be compelled to attend court appearances etc.
- davidgerard 2y ago
  Because your contract was with the retailer. UK consumer law works the same way.
- RobotToaster 2y ago
  Works the same in the UK. It makes sense that the retailer is responsible for ensuring goods they sell are fit for purpose, especially when many of these laws predate online shopping. Also it would be difficult to sue a manufacturer who isn't in your country.
- Arnt 2y ago
  There are three companies involved (maybe more): The retailer, with which you have a contract, the importer and/or distributor, with which you don't, and the manufacturer, which is in another jurisdiction. Given that the manufacturer is usually somewhere abroad, which company will the legislature pick? There are two options, so I'd be shocked if the lawyers agreed on which option is better to write into the law. https://toroid.org/exide-warranty-nightmare https://toroid.org/exide-warranty-nightmare is an Indian story you might like BTW.
navigate8310 2y ago
I've had good success with tweeting the company and explaining how the problem is still unresolved.
- gabesullice 2y ago
  The court of public opinion :) That system fails unprivileged people though. Even if the "privilege" is "a number of Twitter followers". That's probably why a tradition of more formal courts arose. But they probably worked better when they operated at a communal scale. Think: "walk down the road to the courtroom on the second Wednesday of the month and wait your turn" and if you win, you get to boast about it at the pub for a few weeks: "can you believe ol' Jon thought he could pull the wool over my eyes?! Ha! Shame on him! He had to pay me for two days labor, the bastard!" I wonder how we bring some of that convenience and public shaming back? My sense is that there's not enough personal accountability because the courts and companies are too big for "ol' Jon" to held to account.
- throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
  Can someone explain the downvotes? This is still one way to get satisfaction.
  - hoppyhoppy2 2y ago
    >Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jopsen 2y ago
Asking a warranty repair on a 9 years old oven is a bit of a stretch. I doubt it'd fly in the EU.
- shermozle 2y ago
  The question I ask straight back at you: how long do you think an oven should last?
  - cornel_io 2y ago
    9 years is a lot to expect it to be under warranty...
    - baq 2y ago
      Apparently not in Australia.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        Well there was no court case. Considering the cost of sending a lawyer attend the hearing and the potential risk of creating a precedent, it may simpler and cheaper to send an engineer when someone complains too loudly...
        promiseofbeans 2y ago
        There is already a precedent - the law. These go to court all the time, and the consumer almost always wins, hence why the companies want to avoid the lawyer fees, since they know they'll lose.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        The law is not a precedent. The law is generic and courts deal with specifics.
r4indeer 2y ago
> Now an old fashioned light bulb shouldn't be expected to last a decade, but an oven? Funnily enough, there actually was the Phoebus cartel [1] which sought to reduce the lifespan of incandescent light bulbs to around 1,000 hours and raise prices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
- mratsim 2y ago
  Reminded me of Bastiat's candlestick maker's petition: http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html
- notoverthere 2y ago
  There's also the Centennial Light [1], a light bulb made in the late 1890s. It was first lit in 1901 and it's still alight today. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light
  - Moldoteck 2y ago
    i guess a lot of lights will work a lot longer if powered at such low voltage and not switched on/off like most ppl do, but this would reduce a lot nr of cases where such a light can be used
    - Modified3019 2y ago
      I love incandescent twinkly colored christmas mini-lights, so much that I use them for providing walkable light at night around the doors to the backyard for roommates. They have a warm glow that LED’s just don’t replicate yet, and the filament and glass make them more gem-like. And the twinkle bulbs are truly “random” and also create subtle and pleasing variations in brightness in the whole line, due to voltage fluctuations. Not a single one has burned out in something like 4 years of runtime. Honestly the paint inside the bulbs is going to fade away completely before these things go out. The trick is 2 things: 1. Don’t move them 2. Use a dimmer and run them around 75% power
  - 2y ago
promiseofbeans 2y ago
We've got a similar thing in New Zealand: the Consumer Guarantees Act. The people who sold the broken thing to you can either fix it, replace it, or refund you the cost of it. The decision is unfortunately up to them, so they sadly often replace things rather than fixing them. Consumer NZ is usually used as the independent source for expected product lifetimes: https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/appliance-life-expectancy https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/appliance-life-expectan.... Interestingly, they specify 15 years for an oven, which is more than the company in this article claimed electric ovens should last for.
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  Replacing seems fair enough...eliminates buyers remorse.
  - promiseofbeans 2y ago
    It's not as good for the environment, though. Some companies like Apple try to make up for this by replacing broken devices, then refurbishing and reselling the formerly broken device.
    - pjc50 2y ago
      Hand-repair of mass-manufactured objects is really expensive, unfortunately. Especially in the West, where you require a bunch of scarce resources like "city land" and "human time".
      - dghlsakjg 2y ago
        Not if the manufacturer plans for it. The first macbook I had, you could replace the battery in less than 10 seconds. You could replace a defective ram stick in 5 minutes if you were going slow. The price of service was cheap enough that the guy who sold me the RAM let me watch over his shoulder as he did it for free.
    - consp 2y ago
graemep 2y ago
Similar law in the UK. There is also trading standards who can sometimes help but the small claims court is fairly straight forward. On top of that if you pay with a credit card or any other form of credit specific to that purchase (e.g. a car loan) you also have a claim against the credit provider.
- aembleton 2y ago
  Don't usually need to even go to court anymore as there is a mediation step offered before court. I did this to get a refund for a smartphone that stopped working after a couple of years.
buggeryorkshire 2y ago
Did the same years ago in the UK with an iPod. Was like a week out of the warranty, I tried to argue it was a premium device - nope, denied. Did a claim with MCOL, they waited until the day of the hearing to pony up what I was claiming for, with interest. In the UK the individual gets to choose the venue with MCOL, so they'd have had to send a lawyer to Cheltenham to contest it.
xlii 2y ago
I disagree. I have a similar situation right now. Washing machine is leaking when load is anything bigger than light load. Initial guarantee claim to Whirlpool was sent 8 weeks ago. It's dead, no response from anyone. Under consumer rights shop should refund, but claim is without response for 3 weeks (14 calendar days is upper limit according to EU law + local regulations). Today I was supposed to contact the lawyer, but I figured out that f** this s**. It's weeks of legal battle over 300€. They won. Stress enough isn't worth it. Oven is a different thing though, as I don't think it's as essential as washing machine (and dragging clothes every week for washing). Maybe I should file a claim to refund after it was made, but it's still a net loss. Lesson learned: stay away from manufacturer Whirlpool, don't ever spend a dime on a shop and live on.
- consp 2y ago
  > It's weeks of legal battle over 300€. We are not alike. As soon as it costs them several tens of billable hours (people on phone, someone making appointments, discussions, emails, lawyer doing it's thing etc) I'm all fair game and will definitely spend my time screwing with them simply to make them pay even if I lose in the end. Since I'm going to be frustrated when I'm being screwed over I see no reason not repay that and to act out that frustration in the worst possible way I can manage for the companies involved.
  - calyhre 2y ago
    Same here. It's also possible to buy a new one during the "fight" period, and resell/donate the repaired one after
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
      Why ask for a repair at that point? At that point, demand the purchase price back.
  - xlii 2y ago
    But it also costs me. Conversations with lawyer is 1.5h, preparing documents another hour. I need to keep appliance somewhere, which is a storage cost. Average time to resolution is 8 months. I need to pay lawyer up front, and the costs are going to be returned, but this is yet another process. Initial costs are 200€ to even start, not to mention legal fees. Even a simple form for costs reimbursement has 4 pages and based on requirements would require approximately 2h of gathering receipts, proving communication. If I'd earn 30€/hour (and my rate is much higher), it would cost me around 600€ to get into the process. Anything outside original amount requires follow-up process so another 8 months. Do I want to spend 2 years to get approximately 1000€ in total, during which I have not usable washing machine stuffed somewhere in my apartment? Nope. As for "legal billable hours". Companies of specific size have lawyer on payroll. It doesn't increase the cost for them and they won't blink an eye or even notice. Facebook post will do more damage to them than above stunt, but it won't bring me anything in return. So yes, they win, because my cost is higher than theirs. And I will stress about it, shortening my lifespan and they won't care at all.
divan 2y ago
MHBKD recently made a video on Apple testing lab [1], and one thing he talked about and that was kinda new to me is seeing repairability as a spectrum. I.e. on one side is "indestructible" product and on the other is "perfectly repairable". And that those properties (being hard to damage/destruct and being easy to repair) might be mutually exclusive. In a hindsight it seems obvious, still this video was the first time I've heard this verbalized so clearly. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8reaJG7z-is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8reaJG7z-is
- Rygian 2y ago
  In France, the "Repairability Index" was mandatory since 2021 [1, in French], and will be superseded by the "Durability Index" starting on 2025 [2, in French] [1] https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite [2] https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-durabilite https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-durabilite
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    Is the idea of these indices to encourage buyers to choose more repairable / durable goods? I can remember shopping for a new fridge with my parents as a kid: The energy efficiency labels (mandated by the gov't) made a big difference on their purchasing decisions.
    - miki123211 2y ago
      I'm of the opinion that manufacturers should be required to prominently list the "expected total monthly price" on their packaging, calculated as product_price / months_of_warranty. This basically assumes that the product may break immediately after the warranty expires. Such a price would incentivize manufacturers to make warranties last as long as possible. This encourages repairability where it's economically and physically viable, without the tradeoffs necessary if repairability is mandated by law.
      - aembleton 2y ago
Redneck-Tech 2y ago
Absolutely blows my mind how many people have fallen into the trap that is "SMART" devices and "POWER EFFICIENT" appliances. Only to find out just after the warranty runs out that they ultimately invested in a hawt piece of trash. There is no pride in manufactured goods anymore, imho there's not much pride in anything nowadays. Not surprising when a burger engineer at McDonald's makes more money than even an entry level machinist.
- zeristor 2y ago
  Oral B sell a variety of Electric toothbrushes, dependent on the built in Li ion battery. Some of them hook up to a mobile phone by bluetooth to track how you brush. The thing is once the battery dies the £150 toothbrush is useless, it's' sealed so replacing the battery isn't trivial. I think in the battery may last a fair bit longer now. Electric tooth brushes are quite an improvement over a normal tooth brush.
  - Redneck-Tech 2y ago
    Why repair something when the repair's cost more than this years model which boasts more privacy pirating features than the one you currently own? Manual brushing is so retro... just walk through the automated car wash with your mouth open and at the end make sure you smile.
  - tallanvor 2y ago
    There are tradeoffs both ways. A user replaceable battery can extend the life, but it also introduces a way for water to get in and short it out, thereby drastically decreasing the lifespan. But given the overall power requirements for the device, ensuring that the battery is charged appropriately to extend the lifespan is pretty easy. My Philips is over 4 years old now and if I'm traveling for a week I may need to charge it once (never really tried to let it drain fully), and it gets used twice a day.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    I recently had to replace the handle of my Oral B electric toothbrush with a built-in sealed battery. The battery got to the point where it couldn't hold a charge for at least two brushings without it noticeably having its power output diminished. I bought that brush handle in 2009. 15 years of life, and if I didn't mind about the second brush charge I probably could have squeezed another year or two out of it.
sneak 2y ago
Regardless, you should still never ever buy an HP printer. Tell your friends and family.
- theodric 2y ago
  I mean, a LaserJet 4L is still quite a decent printer today. Just don't buy an HP printer that was made in the last 25 years, and you should be fine!
  - criddell 2y ago
    That’s true, but that 4L cost $1200 30 years ago which according to some random inflation calculators works out to about $2500 today. It’s hard to believe that’s a better value than a $100 HP ink jet and a lot of ink.
  - femto 2y ago
    You're being hard on poor old HP. My HP LaserJet 1200 is still going strong, and it was bought only 20 years ago!
greekanalyst 2y ago
The EU gets a lot of heat for many things (and rightfully so), but this is an area where it is actually doing wonders in favor of consumers. Here is the directive adopted by the EU Council to promote the repair of broken or defective goods, also known as the right-to-repair (or R2R) directive: "The directive adopted today enshrines a new right for consumers: the right to have defective products repaired in an easier, cheaper and faster way. It also gives manufacturers the incentive to make products that last longer and can be repaired, reused and recycled." https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/05/30/circular-economy-council-gives-final-approval-to-right-to-repair-directive/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024...
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  The US, the UE and China have wildly different approaches to many important topics, and the fact they are all affecting the entire world has the tendency to break political stale matches and balance things out. It shows that diversity is a good thing, you end up having to compromise no matter how rightful you feel.
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    I'm often guilty of missing mistakes in my own posts, but as a PSA: please proofread your posts, especially if using prediction on a phone. You can edit your post if you do so soon after posting, and sometimes the meaning isn't lost (stale matches -> stalemates) but other times it (subjectively) is. For example I don't know what "rightful" should be here.
    - wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
      I always thought it would be a good idea to have a suggest spelling improvements on social media & forums. Gives a low-key way of improving things without wasting comment space and potentially saving embarrassment. But I’m sure it needs a good ux or otherwise will be abused
      - 2y ago
nijave 2y ago
In the U.S. you can usually file a complaint with the state's Attorney General's office. Sometimes there is a regulatory authority like for utilities or the Consumer Protection Bureau. Usually a complaint gets forwarded to the company which requires some sort of authoritative response (which wastes time and money) so you can have reasonable success there. Same issue as the article explains, it still takes a lot of time on the consumer side (who wants to be without an oven 2 months while they file paperwork and wait)
iandanforth 2y ago
I don't envy Australian's most things but this is one worthy of it.
- hug 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, as an Australian, what is unenviable?
  - cdelsolar 2y ago
    your gigantic spiders
    - inkyoto 2y ago
      Australia's most venomous spiders are actually small. But yes, pretty much everything in Australia will try to kill you: it has world's most venomous snakes, world's most venomous spiders, saltwater crocodiles, sneaky dropbears, dengue fever carrying mosquitoes, world's most venomous jellyfish and sea snakes, and, of course, the IT consultants who will eat one alive.
  - speedgoose 2y ago
    Your pro-coals politicians perhaps. And you don’t drive on the right side of the road.
    - inkyoto 2y ago
      > And you don’t drive on the right side of the road. Well. There is nothing left to discuss then.
  - callalex 2y ago
    The total lack of free speech is pretty messed up. Am I correct that you can’t even have blood come out when someone is hurt in a video game marketed to adults?
    - 2y ago
al_borland 2y ago
My dad usually writes the CEO and has pretty good luck getting issues resolved, with a lot less trouble than a court case.
- xattt 2y ago
  The trick is to figure out the corporate email name format, find out the names of the members of the board and email them.
- account42 2y ago
  I have had succes with that approach as well. Don't expect the CEO to answer of course but whoever gets tasked with it is usually still much better positioned to get your issue resolved than a call center drone.
prmoustache 2y ago
> So you have a reasonable expectation that your appliance will last a reasonable amount of time. So how long is reasonable? FOREVER. Just design them so parts are replaceable and buildable by any third party and provide the documentation.
bartread 2y ago
I mean, litigation is fine and all, but what you can do will vary by jurisdiction. In the past 14 months I've had to deal with two misbehaving insurance companies, one misbehaving utility provider (overcharging), and a few other things as well that I don't really want to talk about here. I did not get to the point of actually having to take legal action but I did have to threaten it in two cases, along with action from the relevant ombudsmen. Nothing like this, or on this scale, has ever happened to me before (once, about thirty years ago, I had to threaten a company with small claims for unpaid wages, but that's it). There are, to an extent, processes you have to follow before you can get to the point where you are within your rights to threaten to throw the legal book at companies. You usually have to have gone through their complaints procedures and got to what you consider an unsatisfactory result. This in itself can take weeks or months of emailing back and forth, phone calls, etc. You gradually escalate your approach, you cover the internet in bad reviews, you contact your local MP and the local media, and so it goes on. Its an exhausting and kafkaesque shitshow and this is with the backing of authorities, such as ombudsmen, who operate with the backing of legislation. I understand why you have to do it: because some consumers are vexatious and dishonest. But it takes too long (elapsed) and it takes far too much time (effort) that could be better spent with family and friends (as an example). I am currently gearing myself up to deal with the other insurance company, who I haven't so far had to threaten with legal action, and file a police complaint due to some new information that's come to light that shows our insurers, and the advice they gave us, in a very bad light. Honestly, I don't know if I can be bothered any more. Taking the actions that I have, well, I wouldn't say they've left us better off, but they've left us much less worse off, because we haven't been taken for mugs... but the cost to my sanity and my soul. I don't know if the juice has always been worth the squeeze. And that, of course, is what these companies bank on: that you'll get tired of it all and stop bothering them. It's extremely scummy behaviour, and frustrates me that I have to get to the point of threatening them with legal action just to get them to do the right thing. I strongly resent being forced to act like an asshole just to get a fair outcome. I welcome any legislation that helps consumers get to a fair outcome more easily, but I also suggest that we need to look at the question of the obfuscatory tactics companies use to force consumers to jump through ridiculous hoops first.
threemux 2y ago
If you're in the US, this method isn't directly available to you (though small claims court is and can work), but most (all?) states have a procedure to complain to the attorney general's office. I've found that companies are willing to play ball when they get a letter on the AG's letterhead.
6510 2y ago
It would be nice to have a public record of time before repairs, the fees and manufacturer estimates before buying. Ideally everything is shipped back to the manufacturer at the end of the life span. Those dates would also be nice to have.
zbrozek 2y ago
I have a Rainforest Automation Eagle 200 radio box that pairs with a PG&E meter to enable real time data egress. The onboard software is brittle and the device fails to boot up completely, though it is responsive to local network requests. Rainforest Automation is uninterested in debugging it and is offering only a discount on replacement hardware. But this is likely a software problem (I suspect failed certificate rotation to connect to their backend) and I don't want to give them more money. I live in California and the right to repair goes live next month. Anybody know how I can use that right to actually get a repair?
- stronglikedan 2y ago
  I would presume it's not retroactive, and would only apply to devices sold after the law went into effect. And perhaps only even devices manufactured before then.
  - ricktdotorg 2y ago
    not so. via[0]: Manufacturers must also make available documentation, parts, and tools for at least three years after the product was last manufactured for products priced between $50 and $99.99 and for at least seven years after the product was last manufactured for products priced at $100 or more, regardless of any warranty periods. The law broadly covers electronic and appliance products, including cell phones, laptops, tablets, and various home appliances, that were manufactured and sold or used for the first time in California on or after July 1, 2021. [0] https://www.sidley.com/en/insights/newsupdates/2023/10/california-becomes-third-us-state-to-join-the-right-to-repair-movement https://www.sidley.com/en/insights/newsupdates/2023/10/calif... edited to add source URL.
elzbardico 2y ago
It depends a lot of how much expensive is the court on your jurisdiction. If you live in a place with some kind of small claims court, where you don't need to hire a lawyer, yes. If not, your only hope is by pooling with other victims in a class action, in the jurisdiction where this exists. Those companies hire a lot of lawyers, have extensive data on customer behavior, court costs and generally know that most people don't have the time and/or the money to sue, and will find that it is more economical for them to just forget the matter and buy a brand new item.
dfxm12 2y ago
I went around and around in circles with the Electrolux call centre worker. "So you think an oven should only last for two years?" To what end? Annoy the people who are responsible for your predicament. Don't take it out on call center workers.
- Terretta 2y ago
  > To what end? The more time you spend with the call center, the more it costs the parent company. They don't like long calls. If your call lasts long enough, it will get reviewed by a manager. Your class of complaint will end up on a tally. Enough of these, and someone does something.
  - catapart 2y ago
    Exactly. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. If it were my business, I wouldn't make shitty decisions and then force an army of phone operators to run my customers around so that no customer could ever have an effect on my company, while only offering up the customer service reps as any kind of interface with the company. You want me not to bother the customer service reps? Give me a different way to interact with the company. But I'm not going to pity anyone who stays at that job (I did my time in customer service; I have the wherewithall to leave every emotion from one call with that caller). Reps should understand that the actual description of the job they are signing up for is "repeat talking points until the customer hangs up and weather their anger, until that point. if within your approved talking points - help with their problem".
  - dfxm12 2y ago
    As one continues to read the article, they'll see that the author "asked to be escalated to a manager who could actually make a decision". This option is more direct and you don't have to accost the call center worker. Some advice to a co-founder, if you make customers waste their time going in circles with the help desk just to get their concerns reviewed, they'll take their business elsewhere.
WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
What types are harm can go their US Small Claims court? For example, does it have to be a monetary loss or can you sue to address recurring issues or force an exit of contract (w/o penalty)?
jvm___ 2y ago
I bought a cool wifi, internet connected picture frame from a thrift store. It had someone else's pictures on it, so I went into the menu and selected "Factory Reset" After that it never booted past the setup pages with a "unable to get token" message. I messaged the company who was very responsive but the end result was that they said it was unfixable and to return it to the store. It was only $8, but I was looking forward to a wifi connected picture frame.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
  At a certain point we have to stop describing these situations as you "owning" something which broke, and instead describe it as you leasing the picture frame from that company for $0 (with an initial upfront cost) and the company failing to holdup on it's side of the deal.
  - kojeovo 2y ago
    Well you do own the physical frame itself. It's more so the "smart" part being leased.
  - fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
    In this case I'd be more inclined to call it planned obsolescence
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Or just a defective product. It sounds like the company didn't even manage to test Factory Reset.
dclowd9901 2y ago
> NSW (and I think all the other states) has a tribunal especially for consumer claims, what used to be the "small claims court" is now the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal, NCAT. It's specifically designed to be low cost and straightforward. You shouldn't need a lawyer and can turn up with your documents. I’ve never actually used small claims court in the US. Curious if those who have can answer if it’s a similar experience?
denton-scratch 2y ago
TFA describes Electrolux as a mid-range manufacturer. I guess that's about right; their products aren't cheap "break-on-day2" crap, but they're not up there with Miele and Bosch. Electrolux is a Swedish company that has quietly bought-up most of the European brands, like Hotpoint and AEG. When you buy one of those brands, you are buying the Electrolux standard of service. The service engineers are a third-party. Last time I looked, there was no contact information on the Electrolux website. And TBH, I think it must be at least a decade since I saw Electrolux-branded products in stores. I think Electrolux' business is like those cheapo Chinese companies that buy up good bicycle brands, and then drastically downgrade the product. So be careful if you're buying white goods in Europe: you could be buying Electrolux in mufti.
ilaksh 2y ago
I think there is a way to resolve this sort of thing. If there are a certain number of tribunal appointments for the same type of issue, it becomes a criminal case for the CEO.
jackvalentine 2y ago
Of note, Australian Consumer Law applies to almost all consumer products and can have very big $$$ implications for selling defective junk: https://legalwiseseminars.com.au/insights/defective-range-rover-nets-record-refund-under-australian-consumer-law https://legalwiseseminars.com.au/insights/defective-range-ro...

408 points by Aaronn 2y ago

23B1 2y ago

I'd be curious to hear about stories of this working in the U.S., if ever.

promiseofbeans 2y ago
Sadly, the US doesn't seem to have particularly great consumer guarantees - you just have to rely on warranties given as an extra marketing point by a company. In more developed countries like Australia, NZ, and the UK, warranties last less time than the guarantee offered by consumer law and only exist to try and confuse consumers into not asking for repairs after the warranty expires (but not necessarily the consumer law guarantee)
- 23B1 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ktallett 2y ago
    It is a shame that this is needed to be said but in many laws it is true. Employment, consumer, health, and prisoner come to mind.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      The definition of "developed country" doesn't really track those metrics, though. It's more about economy, level of technology and general infrastructure commonly available, etc.
      - sofixa 2y ago
        > and general infrastructure commonly available Banking being stuck in the 19th century but with apps, healthcare being generally unaffordable, a near total lack of affordable transit options, etc etc etc
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
From my understanding, small claims court in the US can be particularly effective because sending a company representative there costs more than just refunding the product. However, I suspect that if something breaks out of warranty, you don't have a legal right to get it replaced/repaired.
zamalek 2y ago
In the US the consumer would be taken to court instead. /s
- denton-scratch 2y ago
  "In soviet Russia, party comes to YOU."
criddell 2y ago
There have been a few stories on HN over the years of people taking advantage of arbitration that so many companies insist on. Here’s one, but there are others as well: https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbitration/ https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbi...

Tistron 2y ago

Does anyone know whether and how this translates to other places in the world? For me, it's the most interesting with EU/Sweden. We don't have courts like this do we?

gwd 2y ago
I've got a friend who claims to have sued dozens of companies in the equivalent in the UK; he called it "Small Claims Court", but perhaps it has a more specific technical name. Here's an example: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/making-a-small-claim/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-syste...
- seabass-labrax 2y ago
  Apparently they are no longer called 'small claims' officially, but everyone I know still calls them that. The N1 form is to be sent by post[1] and there is also an online version which can be used in some cases[2]. [1]: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65eb13af62ff489bab87b36d/N1_0622_save.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65eb13af62ff4... [2]: https://www1.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility https://www1.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility
deugtniet 2y ago
Here you go :-) https://e-justice.europa.eu/42/EN/small_claims?SWEDEN&member=1 https://e-justice.europa.eu/42/EN/small_claims?SWEDEN&member... This link also contains a reference for all other EU member states
- Tistron 2y ago
  Cool, thank you!
BoredPositron 2y ago
The ESCP can be an option. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_small_claims_procedure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_small_claims_proced...

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago

I predict that this is going to get more and more common: Companies enshittify their service, hiding behind impenetrable walls of AI chatbots and useless outsourced template-reply service centers, customers respond by taking one attempt to resolve it with the company and then straight to court. If you have a working small claims court system, I can recommend giving it a try. It can be way less frustrating than trying to deal with a company that just doesn't want to.

gosub100 2y ago
They're rolling out the arbitration clauses like mad recently though. There was an HN post a few years ago about going to arbitration and winning, so it's not a complete lost cause but I guess the damages would be less.
- eadler 2y ago
  pre-dispute arbitration agreements is still worse for consumers in almost every possible way: https://arbitrationinformation.org/docs/problems/ https://arbitrationinformation.org/docs/problems/
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  Arbitration is great for companies for multiple reasons: - it avoids costly class actions in "big" cases - it avoids costly discovery in "big" cases - it avoids sky-high damages claims in extreme cases - it allows small everyday fuck-ups to be handled more cheaply than a court However, I'd argue that for this kind of issue, arbitration isn't necessarily worse. Especially in a clear-cut case, you don't need the court to win, you just need the court to trigger an escalation at the company. Arbitration is good enough for that.
  - gosub100 2y ago
    I admit I'm too lazy to Google, but are arbitration services regulated, so that if they flagrantly refused to rule in favor of a plaintiff in a case where (999/1000) lawyers would agree, can the arbitration service be sent to review the same way a doctor or lawyer could be disciplined? I can't imagine how you could legally sign over the right to sue to an agency that fails to apply basic principles of justice.

thisislife2 2y ago

This is the way. You just need to be patient. Threatening to file a case with the consumer court (India) often gets a better response from big businesses. Though, I am surprised why you are allowed to sue the retailer here (unless they were selling the product under their own brand name)?

spacebanana7 2y ago
Many countries place the regulatory burden on the importer/retailer of products to make enforcement easier. It can be difficult to directly sue a foreign manufacturer but importers and retailers tend to have domestic legal entities that can be compelled to attend court appearances etc.
davidgerard 2y ago
Because your contract was with the retailer. UK consumer law works the same way.
RobotToaster 2y ago
Works the same in the UK. It makes sense that the retailer is responsible for ensuring goods they sell are fit for purpose, especially when many of these laws predate online shopping. Also it would be difficult to sue a manufacturer who isn't in your country.
Arnt 2y ago
There are three companies involved (maybe more): The retailer, with which you have a contract, the importer and/or distributor, with which you don't, and the manufacturer, which is in another jurisdiction. Given that the manufacturer is usually somewhere abroad, which company will the legislature pick? There are two options, so I'd be shocked if the lawyers agreed on which option is better to write into the law. https://toroid.org/exide-warranty-nightmare https://toroid.org/exide-warranty-nightmare is an Indian story you might like BTW.

navigate8310 2y ago

I've had good success with tweeting the company and explaining how the problem is still unresolved.

gabesullice 2y ago
The court of public opinion :) That system fails unprivileged people though. Even if the "privilege" is "a number of Twitter followers". That's probably why a tradition of more formal courts arose. But they probably worked better when they operated at a communal scale. Think: "walk down the road to the courtroom on the second Wednesday of the month and wait your turn" and if you win, you get to boast about it at the pub for a few weeks: "can you believe ol' Jon thought he could pull the wool over my eyes?! Ha! Shame on him! He had to pay me for two days labor, the bastard!" I wonder how we bring some of that convenience and public shaming back? My sense is that there's not enough personal accountability because the courts and companies are too big for "ol' Jon" to held to account.
throwaway7ahgb 2y ago
Can someone explain the downvotes? This is still one way to get satisfaction.
- hoppyhoppy2 2y ago
  >Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jopsen 2y ago

Asking a warranty repair on a 9 years old oven is a bit of a stretch. I doubt it'd fly in the EU.

shermozle 2y ago
The question I ask straight back at you: how long do you think an oven should last?
- cornel_io 2y ago
  9 years is a lot to expect it to be under warranty...
  - baq 2y ago
    Apparently not in Australia.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      Well there was no court case. Considering the cost of sending a lawyer attend the hearing and the potential risk of creating a precedent, it may simpler and cheaper to send an engineer when someone complains too loudly...
      - promiseofbeans 2y ago
        There is already a precedent - the law. These go to court all the time, and the consumer almost always wins, hence why the companies want to avoid the lawyer fees, since they know they'll lose.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        The law is not a precedent. The law is generic and courts deal with specifics.

r4indeer 2y ago

> Now an old fashioned light bulb shouldn't be expected to last a decade, but an oven? Funnily enough, there actually was the Phoebus cartel [1] which sought to reduce the lifespan of incandescent light bulbs to around 1,000 hours and raise prices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

mratsim 2y ago
Reminded me of Bastiat's candlestick maker's petition: http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html
notoverthere 2y ago
There's also the Centennial Light [1], a light bulb made in the late 1890s. It was first lit in 1901 and it's still alight today. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light
- Moldoteck 2y ago
  i guess a lot of lights will work a lot longer if powered at such low voltage and not switched on/off like most ppl do, but this would reduce a lot nr of cases where such a light can be used
  - Modified3019 2y ago
    I love incandescent twinkly colored christmas mini-lights, so much that I use them for providing walkable light at night around the doors to the backyard for roommates. They have a warm glow that LED’s just don’t replicate yet, and the filament and glass make them more gem-like. And the twinkle bulbs are truly “random” and also create subtle and pleasing variations in brightness in the whole line, due to voltage fluctuations. Not a single one has burned out in something like 4 years of runtime. Honestly the paint inside the bulbs is going to fade away completely before these things go out. The trick is 2 things: 1. Don’t move them 2. Use a dimmer and run them around 75% power
- 2y ago

promiseofbeans 2y ago

We've got a similar thing in New Zealand: the Consumer Guarantees Act. The people who sold the broken thing to you can either fix it, replace it, or refund you the cost of it. The decision is unfortunately up to them, so they sadly often replace things rather than fixing them. Consumer NZ is usually used as the independent source for expected product lifetimes: https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/appliance-life-expectancy https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/appliance-life-expectan.... Interestingly, they specify 15 years for an oven, which is more than the company in this article claimed electric ovens should last for.

Ylpertnodi 2y ago
Replacing seems fair enough...eliminates buyers remorse.
- promiseofbeans 2y ago
  It's not as good for the environment, though. Some companies like Apple try to make up for this by replacing broken devices, then refurbishing and reselling the formerly broken device.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    Hand-repair of mass-manufactured objects is really expensive, unfortunately. Especially in the West, where you require a bunch of scarce resources like "city land" and "human time".
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      Not if the manufacturer plans for it. The first macbook I had, you could replace the battery in less than 10 seconds. You could replace a defective ram stick in 5 minutes if you were going slow. The price of service was cheap enough that the guy who sold me the RAM let me watch over his shoulder as he did it for free.
  - consp 2y ago

graemep 2y ago

Similar law in the UK. There is also trading standards who can sometimes help but the small claims court is fairly straight forward. On top of that if you pay with a credit card or any other form of credit specific to that purchase (e.g. a car loan) you also have a claim against the credit provider.

aembleton 2y ago
Don't usually need to even go to court anymore as there is a mediation step offered before court. I did this to get a refund for a smartphone that stopped working after a couple of years.

buggeryorkshire 2y ago

Did the same years ago in the UK with an iPod. Was like a week out of the warranty, I tried to argue it was a premium device - nope, denied. Did a claim with MCOL, they waited until the day of the hearing to pony up what I was claiming for, with interest. In the UK the individual gets to choose the venue with MCOL, so they'd have had to send a lawyer to Cheltenham to contest it.

xlii 2y ago

I disagree. I have a similar situation right now. Washing machine is leaking when load is anything bigger than light load. Initial guarantee claim to Whirlpool was sent 8 weeks ago. It's dead, no response from anyone. Under consumer rights shop should refund, but claim is without response for 3 weeks (14 calendar days is upper limit according to EU law + local regulations). Today I was supposed to contact the lawyer, but I figured out that f** this s**. It's weeks of legal battle over 300€. They won. Stress enough isn't worth it. Oven is a different thing though, as I don't think it's as essential as washing machine (and dragging clothes every week for washing). Maybe I should file a claim to refund after it was made, but it's still a net loss. Lesson learned: stay away from manufacturer Whirlpool, don't ever spend a dime on a shop and live on.

consp 2y ago
> It's weeks of legal battle over 300€. We are not alike. As soon as it costs them several tens of billable hours (people on phone, someone making appointments, discussions, emails, lawyer doing it's thing etc) I'm all fair game and will definitely spend my time screwing with them simply to make them pay even if I lose in the end. Since I'm going to be frustrated when I'm being screwed over I see no reason not repay that and to act out that frustration in the worst possible way I can manage for the companies involved.
- calyhre 2y ago
  Same here. It's also possible to buy a new one during the "fight" period, and resell/donate the repaired one after
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
    Why ask for a repair at that point? At that point, demand the purchase price back.
- xlii 2y ago
  But it also costs me. Conversations with lawyer is 1.5h, preparing documents another hour. I need to keep appliance somewhere, which is a storage cost. Average time to resolution is 8 months. I need to pay lawyer up front, and the costs are going to be returned, but this is yet another process. Initial costs are 200€ to even start, not to mention legal fees. Even a simple form for costs reimbursement has 4 pages and based on requirements would require approximately 2h of gathering receipts, proving communication. If I'd earn 30€/hour (and my rate is much higher), it would cost me around 600€ to get into the process. Anything outside original amount requires follow-up process so another 8 months. Do I want to spend 2 years to get approximately 1000€ in total, during which I have not usable washing machine stuffed somewhere in my apartment? Nope. As for "legal billable hours". Companies of specific size have lawyer on payroll. It doesn't increase the cost for them and they won't blink an eye or even notice. Facebook post will do more damage to them than above stunt, but it won't bring me anything in return. So yes, they win, because my cost is higher than theirs. And I will stress about it, shortening my lifespan and they won't care at all.

divan 2y ago

MHBKD recently made a video on Apple testing lab [1], and one thing he talked about and that was kinda new to me is seeing repairability as a spectrum. I.e. on one side is "indestructible" product and on the other is "perfectly repairable". And that those properties (being hard to damage/destruct and being easy to repair) might be mutually exclusive. In a hindsight it seems obvious, still this video was the first time I've heard this verbalized so clearly. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8reaJG7z-is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8reaJG7z-is

Rygian 2y ago
In France, the "Repairability Index" was mandatory since 2021 [1, in French], and will be superseded by the "Durability Index" starting on 2025 [2, in French] [1] https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite [2] https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-durabilite https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-durabilite
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  Is the idea of these indices to encourage buyers to choose more repairable / durable goods? I can remember shopping for a new fridge with my parents as a kid: The energy efficiency labels (mandated by the gov't) made a big difference on their purchasing decisions.
  - miki123211 2y ago
    I'm of the opinion that manufacturers should be required to prominently list the "expected total monthly price" on their packaging, calculated as product_price / months_of_warranty. This basically assumes that the product may break immediately after the warranty expires. Such a price would incentivize manufacturers to make warranties last as long as possible. This encourages repairability where it's economically and physically viable, without the tradeoffs necessary if repairability is mandated by law.
    - aembleton 2y ago

Redneck-Tech 2y ago

Absolutely blows my mind how many people have fallen into the trap that is "SMART" devices and "POWER EFFICIENT" appliances. Only to find out just after the warranty runs out that they ultimately invested in a hawt piece of trash. There is no pride in manufactured goods anymore, imho there's not much pride in anything nowadays. Not surprising when a burger engineer at McDonald's makes more money than even an entry level machinist.

zeristor 2y ago
Oral B sell a variety of Electric toothbrushes, dependent on the built in Li ion battery. Some of them hook up to a mobile phone by bluetooth to track how you brush. The thing is once the battery dies the £150 toothbrush is useless, it's' sealed so replacing the battery isn't trivial. I think in the battery may last a fair bit longer now. Electric tooth brushes are quite an improvement over a normal tooth brush.
- Redneck-Tech 2y ago
  Why repair something when the repair's cost more than this years model which boasts more privacy pirating features than the one you currently own? Manual brushing is so retro... just walk through the automated car wash with your mouth open and at the end make sure you smile.
- tallanvor 2y ago
  There are tradeoffs both ways. A user replaceable battery can extend the life, but it also introduces a way for water to get in and short it out, thereby drastically decreasing the lifespan. But given the overall power requirements for the device, ensuring that the battery is charged appropriately to extend the lifespan is pretty easy. My Philips is over 4 years old now and if I'm traveling for a week I may need to charge it once (never really tried to let it drain fully), and it gets used twice a day.
- vel0city 2y ago
  I recently had to replace the handle of my Oral B electric toothbrush with a built-in sealed battery. The battery got to the point where it couldn't hold a charge for at least two brushings without it noticeably having its power output diminished. I bought that brush handle in 2009. 15 years of life, and if I didn't mind about the second brush charge I probably could have squeezed another year or two out of it.

sneak 2y ago

Regardless, you should still never ever buy an HP printer. Tell your friends and family.

theodric 2y ago
I mean, a LaserJet 4L is still quite a decent printer today. Just don't buy an HP printer that was made in the last 25 years, and you should be fine!
- criddell 2y ago
  That’s true, but that 4L cost $1200 30 years ago which according to some random inflation calculators works out to about $2500 today. It’s hard to believe that’s a better value than a $100 HP ink jet and a lot of ink.
- femto 2y ago
  You're being hard on poor old HP. My HP LaserJet 1200 is still going strong, and it was bought only 20 years ago!

greekanalyst 2y ago

The EU gets a lot of heat for many things (and rightfully so), but this is an area where it is actually doing wonders in favor of consumers. Here is the directive adopted by the EU Council to promote the repair of broken or defective goods, also known as the right-to-repair (or R2R) directive: "The directive adopted today enshrines a new right for consumers: the right to have defective products repaired in an easier, cheaper and faster way. It also gives manufacturers the incentive to make products that last longer and can be repaired, reused and recycled." https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/05/30/circular-economy-council-gives-final-approval-to-right-to-repair-directive/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024...

BiteCode_dev 2y ago
The US, the UE and China have wildly different approaches to many important topics, and the fact they are all affecting the entire world has the tendency to break political stale matches and balance things out. It shows that diversity is a good thing, you end up having to compromise no matter how rightful you feel.
- Y_Y 2y ago
  I'm often guilty of missing mistakes in my own posts, but as a PSA: please proofread your posts, especially if using prediction on a phone. You can edit your post if you do so soon after posting, and sometimes the meaning isn't lost (stale matches -> stalemates) but other times it (subjectively) is. For example I don't know what "rightful" should be here.
  - wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
    I always thought it would be a good idea to have a suggest spelling improvements on social media & forums. Gives a low-key way of improving things without wasting comment space and potentially saving embarrassment. But I’m sure it needs a good ux or otherwise will be abused
    - 2y ago

nijave 2y ago

In the U.S. you can usually file a complaint with the state's Attorney General's office. Sometimes there is a regulatory authority like for utilities or the Consumer Protection Bureau. Usually a complaint gets forwarded to the company which requires some sort of authoritative response (which wastes time and money) so you can have reasonable success there. Same issue as the article explains, it still takes a lot of time on the consumer side (who wants to be without an oven 2 months while they file paperwork and wait)

iandanforth 2y ago

I don't envy Australian's most things but this is one worthy of it.

hug 2y ago
Out of curiosity, as an Australian, what is unenviable?
- cdelsolar 2y ago
  your gigantic spiders
  - inkyoto 2y ago
    Australia's most venomous spiders are actually small. But yes, pretty much everything in Australia will try to kill you: it has world's most venomous snakes, world's most venomous spiders, saltwater crocodiles, sneaky dropbears, dengue fever carrying mosquitoes, world's most venomous jellyfish and sea snakes, and, of course, the IT consultants who will eat one alive.
- speedgoose 2y ago
  Your pro-coals politicians perhaps. And you don’t drive on the right side of the road.
  - inkyoto 2y ago
    > And you don’t drive on the right side of the road. Well. There is nothing left to discuss then.
- callalex 2y ago
  The total lack of free speech is pretty messed up. Am I correct that you can’t even have blood come out when someone is hurt in a video game marketed to adults?
  - 2y ago

al_borland 2y ago

My dad usually writes the CEO and has pretty good luck getting issues resolved, with a lot less trouble than a court case.

xattt 2y ago
The trick is to figure out the corporate email name format, find out the names of the members of the board and email them.
account42 2y ago
I have had succes with that approach as well. Don't expect the CEO to answer of course but whoever gets tasked with it is usually still much better positioned to get your issue resolved than a call center drone.

prmoustache 2y ago

> So you have a reasonable expectation that your appliance will last a reasonable amount of time. So how long is reasonable? FOREVER. Just design them so parts are replaceable and buildable by any third party and provide the documentation.

bartread 2y ago

I mean, litigation is fine and all, but what you can do will vary by jurisdiction. In the past 14 months I've had to deal with two misbehaving insurance companies, one misbehaving utility provider (overcharging), and a few other things as well that I don't really want to talk about here. I did not get to the point of actually having to take legal action but I did have to threaten it in two cases, along with action from the relevant ombudsmen. Nothing like this, or on this scale, has ever happened to me before (once, about thirty years ago, I had to threaten a company with small claims for unpaid wages, but that's it). There are, to an extent, processes you have to follow before you can get to the point where you are within your rights to threaten to throw the legal book at companies. You usually have to have gone through their complaints procedures and got to what you consider an unsatisfactory result. This in itself can take weeks or months of emailing back and forth, phone calls, etc. You gradually escalate your approach, you cover the internet in bad reviews, you contact your local MP and the local media, and so it goes on. Its an exhausting and kafkaesque shitshow and this is with the backing of authorities, such as ombudsmen, who operate with the backing of legislation. I understand why you have to do it: because some consumers are vexatious and dishonest. But it takes too long (elapsed) and it takes far too much time (effort) that could be better spent with family and friends (as an example). I am currently gearing myself up to deal with the other insurance company, who I haven't so far had to threaten with legal action, and file a police complaint due to some new information that's come to light that shows our insurers, and the advice they gave us, in a very bad light. Honestly, I don't know if I can be bothered any more. Taking the actions that I have, well, I wouldn't say they've left us better off, but they've left us much less worse off, because we haven't been taken for mugs... but the cost to my sanity and my soul. I don't know if the juice has always been worth the squeeze. And that, of course, is what these companies bank on: that you'll get tired of it all and stop bothering them. It's extremely scummy behaviour, and frustrates me that I have to get to the point of threatening them with legal action just to get them to do the right thing. I strongly resent being forced to act like an asshole just to get a fair outcome. I welcome any legislation that helps consumers get to a fair outcome more easily, but I also suggest that we need to look at the question of the obfuscatory tactics companies use to force consumers to jump through ridiculous hoops first.

threemux 2y ago

If you're in the US, this method isn't directly available to you (though small claims court is and can work), but most (all?) states have a procedure to complain to the attorney general's office. I've found that companies are willing to play ball when they get a letter on the AG's letterhead.

6510 2y ago

It would be nice to have a public record of time before repairs, the fees and manufacturer estimates before buying. Ideally everything is shipped back to the manufacturer at the end of the life span. Those dates would also be nice to have.

zbrozek 2y ago

I have a Rainforest Automation Eagle 200 radio box that pairs with a PG&E meter to enable real time data egress. The onboard software is brittle and the device fails to boot up completely, though it is responsive to local network requests. Rainforest Automation is uninterested in debugging it and is offering only a discount on replacement hardware. But this is likely a software problem (I suspect failed certificate rotation to connect to their backend) and I don't want to give them more money. I live in California and the right to repair goes live next month. Anybody know how I can use that right to actually get a repair?

stronglikedan 2y ago
I would presume it's not retroactive, and would only apply to devices sold after the law went into effect. And perhaps only even devices manufactured before then.
- ricktdotorg 2y ago
  not so. via[0]: Manufacturers must also make available documentation, parts, and tools for at least three years after the product was last manufactured for products priced between $50 and $99.99 and for at least seven years after the product was last manufactured for products priced at $100 or more, regardless of any warranty periods. The law broadly covers electronic and appliance products, including cell phones, laptops, tablets, and various home appliances, that were manufactured and sold or used for the first time in California on or after July 1, 2021. [0] https://www.sidley.com/en/insights/newsupdates/2023/10/california-becomes-third-us-state-to-join-the-right-to-repair-movement https://www.sidley.com/en/insights/newsupdates/2023/10/calif... edited to add source URL.

elzbardico 2y ago

It depends a lot of how much expensive is the court on your jurisdiction. If you live in a place with some kind of small claims court, where you don't need to hire a lawyer, yes. If not, your only hope is by pooling with other victims in a class action, in the jurisdiction where this exists. Those companies hire a lot of lawyers, have extensive data on customer behavior, court costs and generally know that most people don't have the time and/or the money to sue, and will find that it is more economical for them to just forget the matter and buy a brand new item.

dfxm12 2y ago

I went around and around in circles with the Electrolux call centre worker. "So you think an oven should only last for two years?" To what end? Annoy the people who are responsible for your predicament. Don't take it out on call center workers.

Terretta 2y ago
> To what end? The more time you spend with the call center, the more it costs the parent company. They don't like long calls. If your call lasts long enough, it will get reviewed by a manager. Your class of complaint will end up on a tally. Enough of these, and someone does something.
- catapart 2y ago
  Exactly. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. If it were my business, I wouldn't make shitty decisions and then force an army of phone operators to run my customers around so that no customer could ever have an effect on my company, while only offering up the customer service reps as any kind of interface with the company. You want me not to bother the customer service reps? Give me a different way to interact with the company. But I'm not going to pity anyone who stays at that job (I did my time in customer service; I have the wherewithall to leave every emotion from one call with that caller). Reps should understand that the actual description of the job they are signing up for is "repeat talking points until the customer hangs up and weather their anger, until that point. if within your approved talking points - help with their problem".
- dfxm12 2y ago
  As one continues to read the article, they'll see that the author "asked to be escalated to a manager who could actually make a decision". This option is more direct and you don't have to accost the call center worker. Some advice to a co-founder, if you make customers waste their time going in circles with the help desk just to get their concerns reviewed, they'll take their business elsewhere.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago

What types are harm can go their US Small Claims court? For example, does it have to be a monetary loss or can you sue to address recurring issues or force an exit of contract (w/o penalty)?

jvm___ 2y ago

I bought a cool wifi, internet connected picture frame from a thrift store. It had someone else's pictures on it, so I went into the menu and selected "Factory Reset" After that it never booted past the setup pages with a "unable to get token" message. I messaged the company who was very responsive but the end result was that they said it was unfixable and to return it to the store. It was only $8, but I was looking forward to a wifi connected picture frame.

beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
At a certain point we have to stop describing these situations as you "owning" something which broke, and instead describe it as you leasing the picture frame from that company for $0 (with an initial upfront cost) and the company failing to holdup on it's side of the deal.
- kojeovo 2y ago
  Well you do own the physical frame itself. It's more so the "smart" part being leased.
- fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
  In this case I'd be more inclined to call it planned obsolescence
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Or just a defective product. It sounds like the company didn't even manage to test Factory Reset.

dclowd9901 2y ago

> NSW (and I think all the other states) has a tribunal especially for consumer claims, what used to be the "small claims court" is now the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal, NCAT. It's specifically designed to be low cost and straightforward. You shouldn't need a lawyer and can turn up with your documents. I’ve never actually used small claims court in the US. Curious if those who have can answer if it’s a similar experience?

denton-scratch 2y ago

TFA describes Electrolux as a mid-range manufacturer. I guess that's about right; their products aren't cheap "break-on-day2" crap, but they're not up there with Miele and Bosch. Electrolux is a Swedish company that has quietly bought-up most of the European brands, like Hotpoint and AEG. When you buy one of those brands, you are buying the Electrolux standard of service. The service engineers are a third-party. Last time I looked, there was no contact information on the Electrolux website. And TBH, I think it must be at least a decade since I saw Electrolux-branded products in stores. I think Electrolux' business is like those cheapo Chinese companies that buy up good bicycle brands, and then drastically downgrade the product. So be careful if you're buying white goods in Europe: you could be buying Electrolux in mufti.

ilaksh 2y ago

I think there is a way to resolve this sort of thing. If there are a certain number of tribunal appointments for the same type of issue, it becomes a criminal case for the CEO.

jackvalentine 2y ago

Of note, Australian Consumer Law applies to almost all consumer products and can have very big $$$ implications for selling defective junk: https://legalwiseseminars.com.au/insights/defective-range-rover-nets-record-refund-under-australian-consumer-law https://legalwiseseminars.com.au/insights/defective-range-ro...