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'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

167 points by zeristor 2y ago

krisoft 2y ago
From my perspective water is only at best a proximal cause. The big problem is that if the motor needs replacing five times during a two year waranty period that is a lemon and the manufacurer should give back the money one paid for it.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  I’m not sure how this adds any perspective beyond what’s said in the article?
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  It sounds like a Kaabo e-scooter, a Samsung refrigerator, and most consumer electronics and appliances. Designed to fail because parts = $$$.* * In fairness, Kaabo e-scooters aren't designed, they're thrown together and spaghetti wire is rammed in every crevice without a sensible circuit or terminal diagram.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    So out of the list, Kaabo e-scooters seem to be the only ones where the obsolescence is incidental, instead of planned :).
    - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
      Nawh, Kaabo's are just shit but are also all about selling parts. Unfortunately, very few e-bike repair shops will work on them because they're awful. It's worth noting that 3 of the Kaabo dealers in the US are fly-by-night, shady operations unconcerned with customer service and honesty.
andrewshadura 2y ago
Somehow this is not a big deal across the Channel in the Netherlands. Yet another case of the British not learning from the Dutch?
- _oyks 2y ago
  Do the same bikes magically not fail and have cheaper replacement motors in the fabled Dutch paradise?
  - Kuinox 2y ago
    Well for instance I don't see why an electrical motor would fail on a well designed bike.
  - WJW 2y ago
    Who knows about "the same bikes", but yes in general the e-bikes we have over here are quite reliable.
  - makingstuffs 2y ago
    As someone living in London and travelling to The Netherlands on a regular basis (intending to migrate), I have to say, pretty much everything from public transport to supermarket design seems of a much, much higher standard than its British equivalent. Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a country massively in decline and this transcends down to the quality of goods which we pass as acceptable. The bar of quality seems to have exponentially lowered over the past decade and the effects of such are now rearing their head in our day to day life.
    - dwb 2y ago
      I was born in England, live in London, have a Dutch partner, and also travel to the Netherlands often enough. I agree completely. They have their problems too (from the political to having to tap out on buses), but the overall level of quality and care seems rather higher. The sense of decline and disengagement is strong too. Difficult to say much objective about that (though keep an eye on the turnout in the upcoming general election), but I see it from all political persuasions.
_oyks 2y ago
£700 for a replacement motor? Bloody hell
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  Bosch CX4 motors are a mere £550.
- brippalcharrid 2y ago
  You get this with anything that hasn't been mass-produced at a large scale and commodified for a long time. It's more remarkable that something like a car (or a mobile phone, or a CPU) is cheap than that something like an electric bike motor is expensive. And it could be that this is a poor application for this type of motor technology and that a better type will be developed and that we'll look back on this as an expensive relic that was holding us back.
serf 2y ago
it's not surprising to me that the bosch mid-drives are failing, they're typically placed at an angle that catches all the run off from every tube at the lowest point on the bike (except on recumbents), and the controller is (usually) integrated. mid-drives are great, the gear advantage rocks; the bosch units suck but unfortunately they had so much industry sway that a lot of ebike frames are coming out built around the unit -- which is absolutely unlike any other unit out there aside from vague similarities to the bafang units in the same range -- so it forces replacement with the same garbage, or a total re-engineer of the gear train; a big pain. one thing to be said about the bosch unit : it looks sleek and it integrates well. This is likely a lot of the reason behind the mass adoption, aside from Bosch's presence itself.
- gjadi 2y ago
  My local bike shop said they are all in Bosch because they had better reliability and less issues with their support compared to other companies and because of the commitment to long term spare parts availability.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    > long term spare parts availability. The article says that you can’t get spares, any service requires sending to the factory for repair?
- dgacmu 2y ago
  The gear advantage of a mid-drive rocks but I was quite surprised that I chewed through a rear cassette in under a year / about 1k miles -- a 250W motor + heavy cargo bike + kid passenger + a large and pretty strong rider exert an awful lot of force. And with the assist, I almost never use the larger cogs, so all the wear gets concentrated. (This compares to many, many thousand miles on my road bike.) Still love the thing, though.
  - wyre 2y ago
    I have a friend in your same scenario. I’ve never thought to ask how quickly he goes through cassettes on that bike.
lostlogin 2y ago
I’ve been doing a bit of (non e-bike) riding in poor weather of late, and it’s really surprising just how wet and dirty everything gets. After a wet road ride, every surface is covered in black, greasy dirt. It rots fabric, makes grinding paste in mechanical parts and generally makes everything worse. You need really good seals to keep that crap out.
- discreteevent 2y ago
  Do you have full mudguards/fenders?
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    No, and this would help. While it’s commuting, I’m taking a route 3-4x longer than I need and picking off PRs. The fender helped a little, but was also finicky and I didn’t get a lot of value from it. Your point is correct - some better gear would help.
    - pastage 2y ago
      Fenders needs to be big and cover all the way down to the ground back and front. Small fenders help with the worst, but good fenders are really worth it.
  - DANmode 2y ago
    To this point, and especially for certain classes of bikes (fat tire ebikes, for example), not selling it full-fendered is just an insult to your customer.
- vr46 2y ago
  As a biker, cyclist, skater, and ebiker, I’ve settled about various wax-like sprays to keep crap off and out. ACF-50 for the motorbike, various protective wax sprays for the bicycles, Vaseline for skate bearings.
  - etrautmann 2y ago
jsiepkes 2y ago
Friend of mine has a e-bike from cowboy. The thing is 8 years old and has rust and other forms of oxidation on all kinds of places. Meanwhile my 20 year old koga miyata bike (which I also used for 10 years for my commute in all kinds of weather) has no sign of rust anywhere.
- vr46 2y ago
  Are you sure that's not just because it's cadmium plated or packed with other nasties that provided similar benefits? :D The guy that sometimes services my BMW goes on frequent unprompted rants about how the modern bikes corrode so much more easily, etc etc etc. Not once has he looked into why.
s5300 2y ago
[dead]
defrost 2y ago
With The Right Stuff though: LandCruiser 'Mudcrab' driven 7km under water across Darwin Harbour A rag-tag team of engineers, commercial divers and rev-heads have successfully driven a waterproof electric vehicle 7 kilometres under water across Darwin Harbour, in a stunt they claim has broken two world records. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36928038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36928038
- tim333 2y ago
  Video of that https://youtu.be/1TD5uuUAhCY?t=723 https://youtu.be/1TD5uuUAhCY?t=723
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
If it's a Chinese e-bike, it's probably lying about being IPX67. OTOH, Riese & Müller $15k USD e-bikes aren't IPX anything because the Bosch components aren't. If you get it wet, just kiss that money goodbye. Absolutely bonkers.
- 39896880 2y ago
  I’m glad you wrote this. I have one of these, and I love it, but haven’t ridden it in the rain. Now I won’t. I thought it might be okay because, as you pointed out, it definitely wasn’t cheap.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    Here in Switzerland they rent them out (carvelo2go) and they seem to be doing just fine in (rainy) Switzerland.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  I think it really pays to go with an e-bike from an actual bicycle company. The Trek TQ system for example is submersible (IP67) and has a 2-year warranty, same as Bosch.
  - mjevans 2y ago
    Is IP67 safe to wash like a car? Soapy sponge and reasonable hose pressure (not pressure washer) spray?
    - WJW 2y ago
      IP67 means "completely dust proof and submersible up to 1 meter". You can safely hose it down to clean it, pressure washers are probably a bit much.
      - hughesjj 2y ago
        There's actually bespoke pressure washer codes for the IP system, suffixing with a K https://www.polycase.com/techtalk/waterproof-electronic-enclosures/ip66k-rated-enclosures.html https://www.polycase.com/techtalk/waterproof-electronic-encl... That said even ip66 is supposed to be resistant to 'jets' of water, like ~hose pressure. Also, fwiw, I've never seen these used on prebuilt ebike components.
vr46 2y ago
Good to hear this, since it encourages me to stick with the VanMoof I bought in 2019. Fancier, swishier bikes abound, but the VM just keeps on truckin’
- walthamstow 2y ago
  Yeah my VM ES2 from 2019 is still in good condition and riding well. I use it every day. Shame about the company but a former mechanic from the London shop has started his own repair business so hopefully I'll be riding mine for a few more years to come.
pagra 2y ago
I mount a 350€ Bafang motor on my bike five years ago. I use it almost every day to go to work, even on rainy days (and this year is very wet). The display now shows almost 16000km. It never failed, although it's given as NOT waterproof...
- ulnarkressty 2y ago
  Do you also leave it outside to sit in the rain? I found that bringing a bike indoors (regardless of it being electric or not) significantly improves the lifespan of most parts.
  - pagra 2y ago
    It sleeps inside, and parking is protected at work, sure it has some influence
- nothercastle 2y ago
  It’s because you use it daily. If you used it once a month it would rot to hell.
- Huppie 2y ago
  Our experiences differ sadly. My bafang motor has seen a lot of issues in the ~1.5 years I had it. The bike shop (also) claimed rain and mud where a problem and they considered the ~1000 km per month I rode it 'misuse'. I had a good run with electric bikes up until that time (~10 years with a front-hub motor and after that the Bafang) but to be honest I'm kinda glad it died because I've been riding a decent non-electric bike ever since and monthly visits to the bike shop became yearly visits instead.
jeffbee 2y ago
What is going on with that guy's bike. It is like the Canyonero XL Extreme of bikes. What kind of riding is it suited to? You wouldn't pop down to the grocer in a Unimog, right?
- analog31 2y ago
  It's hard to guess the use of a bike from its looks. When mountain bikes first appeared, most of the people who bought them intended to ride them on pavement, and perhaps rarely on trails. Likewise most pickup trucks and SUV's are bought for urban passenger use. At the time, the perception was that mountain bikes were just more rugged and comfortable to ride. There was a not inconsequential amount of marketing hype about the condition of roads, and the roads in some areas were in fact pretty crappy. Just due to market timing, MTB's were also where most people first experienced indexed shifting, which did improve the ease of riding a bike. In the case of e-bikes, there's a tendency to get "more bike than you really need" because the marginal cost is acceptable and the motor takes care of the added weight. And from a pragmatic standpoint, the difference may also be mostly aesthetic.
- Toutouxc 2y ago
  It's a regular mountain bike, one of the more offroady kinds — full suspension with generous travel, very nice all-purpose tires (Nobby Nic from Schwalbe), aggressive frame geometry. It is obviously not a commuter bike, but it isn't anything extreme, either.
- miahi 2y ago
  That seems to be a modified bike, with a head tube extension plus lots of random spacers, and lots of accessories. It's probably used as a very comfortable road/gravel bike.
DANmode 2y ago
Wait until they realize what such an environment does to your housing, and health.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  What do you mean?
  - DANmode 2y ago
    > ITV News investigations have found there is a "growing problem with severe mould and damp" throughout the UK, with councils often not dealing with residents' complaints. > Damp problems affect around six per cent of homes in London with serious condensation being the most common form. > Damp and mould were responsible for almost a third (28 per cent) of category one hazards in London councils, more than twice the proportion seen across England as a whole. More: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/damp-and-mould-understanding-and-addressing-the-health-risks-for-rented-housing-providers/understanding-and-addressing-the-health-risks-of-damp-and-mould-in-the-home--2 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/damp-and-mould-un... Downvoters, feel free to explain your position. Being in a place where the air is constantly ~100% water is a con for human health - sorry.
    - bowsamic 2y ago
      The UK is not particularly humid. This is just poor house construction
      - DANmode 2y ago
        The climate in the United Kingdom is defined as a humid temperate oceanic climate. London will barely momentarily touch below 50% humidity in the next 10 days.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
lm411 2y ago
Anecdotally, my wife's Magnum Premium 2 has held up well for 4 years of all weather use in west coast Canada. This includes pulling a cargo trailer or kids trailer year round - salty and sandy slushy snow, pouring rain, sun... For two of the years she hauled him to school everyday, in all weather, and did all of her shopping and errands with the bike. About 100km every weekday. I'll have to look at the odometer sometime and see what it's at. I believe it has a Bafang motor and I think we paid about C$2200 as it was in clearance.
- jameshart 2y ago
  Not casting doubt on your numbers here, but to put some perspective on how much usage that implies: 100km every weekday means literally hours of use every day - we're talking about an e-bike that must average what, 20-25km/h at most? That's assuming you're not in stop-start urban traffic. So four or five hours a day? I guess if you're doing a school run that's 30 mins there and 30 mins back, morning and afternoon, plus another trip to town and back... it all adds up.
  - haiku2077 2y ago
    My cheap ebike dies closer to 33 kph easily
    - jameshart 2y ago
      top speed != average speed
      - haiku2077 2y ago
        That's not the top speed. That's about how fast it goes when I casually ride it on a level bike lane.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Top speed on a Magnum Premium 2 is 45kph. So it really depends on where you’re using it as to the kind of average speeds are reasonable. Average 35+kph and they are under 3h per day. It doesn’t seem that unlikely especially if it’s more like 90km than 100.
mongol 2y ago
I converted my regular bike with a Tongsheng motor. It probably is of less quality than Bosch, but I like the repairability aspects of this approach. Spare parts, instruction videos, modularity and lower price. It looks a bit uglier but has worked well for me so far, about a year of riding at least once or twice per week.
mikhailfranco 2y ago
There is a simple scale for water and dirt ingress, e.g. IP65 for protection from water jets and fine dust: https://www.iec.ch/ip-ratings https://www.iec.ch/ip-ratings There are labs that test equipment and verify the claimed ratings. It should be simple for the bike or motor manufacturers to upgrade their seals by one IP step. Most suppliers provide a significant range of IP coverage in their catalogs. The price difference is probably small. The only issue is that any maintenance on the motors has to respect the seals - understand how to disassemble and reassemble without compromising the join.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  Most ebike motors are air cooled - ie. Outdoor air goes into the motor and flows around the magnets and coils to cool them. Such a design is fundamentally incompatible with being fully water sealed.
  - zarzavat 2y ago
    I feel like there must be some clever solution to this using heat sinks / heat pipes.
    - londons_explore 2y ago
      There is, but weight, cost, etc. BLDC motor design also has a conundrum - most of the heat is made in the motor coils, and they can be designed to get up to about 250C, which makes them easy to cool. However, they are wrapped round thermally conductive steel touching thermally sensitive neodymium magnets which have to stay below ~60C for full performance. So it isn't simply a matter of getting rid of heat - it's a game of preventing heat transfer.
      - InSteady 2y ago
        Weight really isn't such an issue with ebikes. I'm riding around a 62lb clunker, carry a 10lb chain lock everywhere, plus I'm hauling big loads of groceries and other crap. Even an extra 5lbs isn't going to make a big difference, nor would an extra $150 to the purchase price if it means years of added longevity. The engineering challenges make sense. Hopefully it is something that is being actively R&D'd.
jll29 2y ago
"The latest units are protected against dust and splash water, according to protection class IP54, and most error codes caused by magnetic interference disappear on restart." This used of "latest" implies Bosch's engineers initially assumed dust and splash water aren't a thing, so by the sound of it they design indoor bike motors for people who hoover very regularly. It's the second part that worries me more, though: "most" (= not all) error codes disappear on research, i.e. you have to regularly reboot your e-bike, like a 1998 Windows PC? Sorry, I never want to reboot an appliance, because real bikes never required that in the past, so it has been shown it is possible. I never want an e-bike, and I don't like throwing away engines because of the environmental damage. Don't people bike because they want to get fit? If not, get a proper motorbike.
- jadyoyster 2y ago
  > Don't people bike because they want to get fit? People bike because they want to get around. Also, a bicycle is a lot less bulky and more quiet than a motorbike and it doesn't require a license.
- ralfd 2y ago
  > Don't people bike because they want to get fit? In my city people bike because they want to get from A to B. E-bikes are great for that! They enable reasonable fast biking without breaking into sweat (good for commuting) and in hilly areas. First they enabled senior citizens to bike fast and longer. Then came the mountain e-bikes and made it cool. Than the city hipsters. Then family mum and dad zipping their children around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA&t=168s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA&t=168s > If not, get a proper motorbike. Motorbikes are loud and heavy and more expensive. You need a helmet and have to use the road instead of bike lanes. You need a driving license.
  - InSteady 2y ago
    Also insurance, yuck. Plus all that gear so that when you have to lay your bike down because some dipshit driver did something insane up ahead of you you can keep at least some of your layers of skin intact.
stavros 2y ago
I notice that we've been seeing a lot of articles here about how e-bikes have motor problems, how EVs don't sell, how EVs have issues, how they "aren't really green", etc, yet we never see any such articles for ICE cars and motorcycles. I wonder why there's such interest in maligning green ways of transportation.
- nikanj 2y ago
  Why? Because people click & share those articles (”lol see turns out ebikes generate so much waste I’m way more green taking my F250 to work every day”)
  - stavros 2y ago
    Yes, and also because some companies have a vested interest in people taking their F250 to work every day, is my point.
- bgnn 2y ago
  This is only normal and a good thing. Both are adopted as main stream now and they start to age and fail in large numbers, as one would expect. People are disappointed, as one would expect. This will drive the quality up. I don't think there's any intention to malign green transportation. I think there's no return form EVs anymore. Ebikes are a bit ahead of EVs in certain aspects. They had a quick boom, a lot of new brands came up with different models and designs but now most of them are going bankrupt because the sales are slowing down. The main reason is not people don't buy ebikes anymore, but they already bought one! What I find stupid is there are only 3-4 companies producing motors or electronics for ebikes. These parts, as the article points out, are not sourced to customers for repairs. This has to change for more sustainability.
  - stavros 2y ago
    I hope there's no return from EVs, but this "some ebikes had problems" sort of thing is only useful for maligning ebikes, as it doesn't really do much for either owners or prospective buyers. It's true about parts, I'd hope that, given how simple ebikes are, there would be a tendency to use easily-replaceable, off-the-shelf components, but I guess companies do want to design custom parts, as that's where they provide value.
dubeye 2y ago
hmm just an extra data point. I've ridden my 2018 bike in wet Scottish winters, across spring rivers, and summer beaches in summer, and it's been fine. could be luck of courser
elzbardico 2y ago
Do manufacturers really test the stuff they sell nowadays?
rjh29 2y ago
In Japan almost everyone uses non electric fixed gear bikes and it seems to work okay. They are dirt cheap too (under $100)
RobinL 2y ago
The article provides zero insight beyond anecodes. The fact a a specialist ebike repair company sees lots of broken ebikes tells you practically nothing about the frequency of problems. The anecdote about 5 failures in a warranty period sounds a bit suspicious and if true is probably a combination of bad luck and extreme usage, or possibly a design flaw in a specific bike model. It's also from a forum post from 5 years ago . That said, as a Bosch ebike owner myself, I'd love to see some decent stats on reliability of different systems. Had no problems myself so far and love it.

167 points by zeristor 2y ago

From my perspective water is only at best a proximal cause. The big problem is that if the motor needs replacing five times during a two year waranty period that is a lemon and the manufacurer should give back the money one paid for it.

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
I’m not sure how this adds any perspective beyond what’s said in the article?
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
It sounds like a Kaabo e-scooter, a Samsung refrigerator, and most consumer electronics and appliances. Designed to fail because parts = $$$.* * In fairness, Kaabo e-scooters aren't designed, they're thrown together and spaghetti wire is rammed in every crevice without a sensible circuit or terminal diagram.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  So out of the list, Kaabo e-scooters seem to be the only ones where the obsolescence is incidental, instead of planned :).
  - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
    Nawh, Kaabo's are just shit but are also all about selling parts. Unfortunately, very few e-bike repair shops will work on them because they're awful. It's worth noting that 3 of the Kaabo dealers in the US are fly-by-night, shady operations unconcerned with customer service and honesty.

andrewshadura 2y ago

Somehow this is not a big deal across the Channel in the Netherlands. Yet another case of the British not learning from the Dutch?

_oyks 2y ago
Do the same bikes magically not fail and have cheaper replacement motors in the fabled Dutch paradise?
- Kuinox 2y ago
  Well for instance I don't see why an electrical motor would fail on a well designed bike.
- WJW 2y ago
  Who knows about "the same bikes", but yes in general the e-bikes we have over here are quite reliable.
- makingstuffs 2y ago
  As someone living in London and travelling to The Netherlands on a regular basis (intending to migrate), I have to say, pretty much everything from public transport to supermarket design seems of a much, much higher standard than its British equivalent. Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a country massively in decline and this transcends down to the quality of goods which we pass as acceptable. The bar of quality seems to have exponentially lowered over the past decade and the effects of such are now rearing their head in our day to day life.
  - dwb 2y ago
    I was born in England, live in London, have a Dutch partner, and also travel to the Netherlands often enough. I agree completely. They have their problems too (from the political to having to tap out on buses), but the overall level of quality and care seems rather higher. The sense of decline and disengagement is strong too. Difficult to say much objective about that (though keep an eye on the turnout in the upcoming general election), but I see it from all political persuasions.

_oyks 2y ago

£700 for a replacement motor? Bloody hell

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
Bosch CX4 motors are a mere £550.
brippalcharrid 2y ago
You get this with anything that hasn't been mass-produced at a large scale and commodified for a long time. It's more remarkable that something like a car (or a mobile phone, or a CPU) is cheap than that something like an electric bike motor is expensive. And it could be that this is a poor application for this type of motor technology and that a better type will be developed and that we'll look back on this as an expensive relic that was holding us back.

serf 2y ago

it's not surprising to me that the bosch mid-drives are failing, they're typically placed at an angle that catches all the run off from every tube at the lowest point on the bike (except on recumbents), and the controller is (usually) integrated. mid-drives are great, the gear advantage rocks; the bosch units suck but unfortunately they had so much industry sway that a lot of ebike frames are coming out built around the unit -- which is absolutely unlike any other unit out there aside from vague similarities to the bafang units in the same range -- so it forces replacement with the same garbage, or a total re-engineer of the gear train; a big pain. one thing to be said about the bosch unit : it looks sleek and it integrates well. This is likely a lot of the reason behind the mass adoption, aside from Bosch's presence itself.

gjadi 2y ago
My local bike shop said they are all in Bosch because they had better reliability and less issues with their support compared to other companies and because of the commitment to long term spare parts availability.
- ornornor 2y ago
  > long term spare parts availability. The article says that you can’t get spares, any service requires sending to the factory for repair?
dgacmu 2y ago
The gear advantage of a mid-drive rocks but I was quite surprised that I chewed through a rear cassette in under a year / about 1k miles -- a 250W motor + heavy cargo bike + kid passenger + a large and pretty strong rider exert an awful lot of force. And with the assist, I almost never use the larger cogs, so all the wear gets concentrated. (This compares to many, many thousand miles on my road bike.) Still love the thing, though.
- wyre 2y ago
  I have a friend in your same scenario. I’ve never thought to ask how quickly he goes through cassettes on that bike.

lostlogin 2y ago

I’ve been doing a bit of (non e-bike) riding in poor weather of late, and it’s really surprising just how wet and dirty everything gets. After a wet road ride, every surface is covered in black, greasy dirt. It rots fabric, makes grinding paste in mechanical parts and generally makes everything worse. You need really good seals to keep that crap out.

discreteevent 2y ago
Do you have full mudguards/fenders?
- lostlogin 2y ago
  No, and this would help. While it’s commuting, I’m taking a route 3-4x longer than I need and picking off PRs. The fender helped a little, but was also finicky and I didn’t get a lot of value from it. Your point is correct - some better gear would help.
  - pastage 2y ago
    Fenders needs to be big and cover all the way down to the ground back and front. Small fenders help with the worst, but good fenders are really worth it.
- DANmode 2y ago
  To this point, and especially for certain classes of bikes (fat tire ebikes, for example), not selling it full-fendered is just an insult to your customer.
vr46 2y ago
As a biker, cyclist, skater, and ebiker, I’ve settled about various wax-like sprays to keep crap off and out. ACF-50 for the motorbike, various protective wax sprays for the bicycles, Vaseline for skate bearings.
- etrautmann 2y ago

jsiepkes 2y ago

Friend of mine has a e-bike from cowboy. The thing is 8 years old and has rust and other forms of oxidation on all kinds of places. Meanwhile my 20 year old koga miyata bike (which I also used for 10 years for my commute in all kinds of weather) has no sign of rust anywhere.

vr46 2y ago
Are you sure that's not just because it's cadmium plated or packed with other nasties that provided similar benefits? :D The guy that sometimes services my BMW goes on frequent unprompted rants about how the modern bikes corrode so much more easily, etc etc etc. Not once has he looked into why.

s5300 2y ago

[dead]

defrost 2y ago

With The Right Stuff though: LandCruiser 'Mudcrab' driven 7km under water across Darwin Harbour A rag-tag team of engineers, commercial divers and rev-heads have successfully driven a waterproof electric vehicle 7 kilometres under water across Darwin Harbour, in a stunt they claim has broken two world records. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36928038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36928038

tim333 2y ago
Video of that https://youtu.be/1TD5uuUAhCY?t=723 https://youtu.be/1TD5uuUAhCY?t=723

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

If it's a Chinese e-bike, it's probably lying about being IPX67. OTOH, Riese & Müller $15k USD e-bikes aren't IPX anything because the Bosch components aren't. If you get it wet, just kiss that money goodbye. Absolutely bonkers.

39896880 2y ago
I’m glad you wrote this. I have one of these, and I love it, but haven’t ridden it in the rain. Now I won’t. I thought it might be okay because, as you pointed out, it definitely wasn’t cheap.
- ornornor 2y ago
  Here in Switzerland they rent them out (carvelo2go) and they seem to be doing just fine in (rainy) Switzerland.
jeffbee 2y ago
I think it really pays to go with an e-bike from an actual bicycle company. The Trek TQ system for example is submersible (IP67) and has a 2-year warranty, same as Bosch.
- mjevans 2y ago
  Is IP67 safe to wash like a car? Soapy sponge and reasonable hose pressure (not pressure washer) spray?
  - WJW 2y ago
    IP67 means "completely dust proof and submersible up to 1 meter". You can safely hose it down to clean it, pressure washers are probably a bit much.
    - hughesjj 2y ago
      There's actually bespoke pressure washer codes for the IP system, suffixing with a K https://www.polycase.com/techtalk/waterproof-electronic-enclosures/ip66k-rated-enclosures.html https://www.polycase.com/techtalk/waterproof-electronic-encl... That said even ip66 is supposed to be resistant to 'jets' of water, like ~hose pressure. Also, fwiw, I've never seen these used on prebuilt ebike components.

vr46 2y ago

Good to hear this, since it encourages me to stick with the VanMoof I bought in 2019. Fancier, swishier bikes abound, but the VM just keeps on truckin’

walthamstow 2y ago
Yeah my VM ES2 from 2019 is still in good condition and riding well. I use it every day. Shame about the company but a former mechanic from the London shop has started his own repair business so hopefully I'll be riding mine for a few more years to come.

pagra 2y ago

I mount a 350€ Bafang motor on my bike five years ago. I use it almost every day to go to work, even on rainy days (and this year is very wet). The display now shows almost 16000km. It never failed, although it's given as NOT waterproof...

ulnarkressty 2y ago
Do you also leave it outside to sit in the rain? I found that bringing a bike indoors (regardless of it being electric or not) significantly improves the lifespan of most parts.
- pagra 2y ago
  It sleeps inside, and parking is protected at work, sure it has some influence
nothercastle 2y ago
It’s because you use it daily. If you used it once a month it would rot to hell.
Huppie 2y ago
Our experiences differ sadly. My bafang motor has seen a lot of issues in the ~1.5 years I had it. The bike shop (also) claimed rain and mud where a problem and they considered the ~1000 km per month I rode it 'misuse'. I had a good run with electric bikes up until that time (~10 years with a front-hub motor and after that the Bafang) but to be honest I'm kinda glad it died because I've been riding a decent non-electric bike ever since and monthly visits to the bike shop became yearly visits instead.

jeffbee 2y ago

What is going on with that guy's bike. It is like the Canyonero XL Extreme of bikes. What kind of riding is it suited to? You wouldn't pop down to the grocer in a Unimog, right?

analog31 2y ago
It's hard to guess the use of a bike from its looks. When mountain bikes first appeared, most of the people who bought them intended to ride them on pavement, and perhaps rarely on trails. Likewise most pickup trucks and SUV's are bought for urban passenger use. At the time, the perception was that mountain bikes were just more rugged and comfortable to ride. There was a not inconsequential amount of marketing hype about the condition of roads, and the roads in some areas were in fact pretty crappy. Just due to market timing, MTB's were also where most people first experienced indexed shifting, which did improve the ease of riding a bike. In the case of e-bikes, there's a tendency to get "more bike than you really need" because the marginal cost is acceptable and the motor takes care of the added weight. And from a pragmatic standpoint, the difference may also be mostly aesthetic.
Toutouxc 2y ago
It's a regular mountain bike, one of the more offroady kinds — full suspension with generous travel, very nice all-purpose tires (Nobby Nic from Schwalbe), aggressive frame geometry. It is obviously not a commuter bike, but it isn't anything extreme, either.
miahi 2y ago
That seems to be a modified bike, with a head tube extension plus lots of random spacers, and lots of accessories. It's probably used as a very comfortable road/gravel bike.

DANmode 2y ago

Wait until they realize what such an environment does to your housing, and health.

bowsamic 2y ago
What do you mean?
- DANmode 2y ago
  > ITV News investigations have found there is a "growing problem with severe mould and damp" throughout the UK, with councils often not dealing with residents' complaints. > Damp problems affect around six per cent of homes in London with serious condensation being the most common form. > Damp and mould were responsible for almost a third (28 per cent) of category one hazards in London councils, more than twice the proportion seen across England as a whole. More: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/damp-and-mould-understanding-and-addressing-the-health-risks-for-rented-housing-providers/understanding-and-addressing-the-health-risks-of-damp-and-mould-in-the-home--2 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/damp-and-mould-un... Downvoters, feel free to explain your position. Being in a place where the air is constantly ~100% water is a con for human health - sorry.
  - bowsamic 2y ago
    The UK is not particularly humid. This is just poor house construction
    - DANmode 2y ago
      The climate in the United Kingdom is defined as a humid temperate oceanic climate. London will barely momentarily touch below 50% humidity in the next 10 days.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

lm411 2y ago

Anecdotally, my wife's Magnum Premium 2 has held up well for 4 years of all weather use in west coast Canada. This includes pulling a cargo trailer or kids trailer year round - salty and sandy slushy snow, pouring rain, sun... For two of the years she hauled him to school everyday, in all weather, and did all of her shopping and errands with the bike. About 100km every weekday. I'll have to look at the odometer sometime and see what it's at. I believe it has a Bafang motor and I think we paid about C$2200 as it was in clearance.

jameshart 2y ago
Not casting doubt on your numbers here, but to put some perspective on how much usage that implies: 100km every weekday means literally hours of use every day - we're talking about an e-bike that must average what, 20-25km/h at most? That's assuming you're not in stop-start urban traffic. So four or five hours a day? I guess if you're doing a school run that's 30 mins there and 30 mins back, morning and afternoon, plus another trip to town and back... it all adds up.
- haiku2077 2y ago
  My cheap ebike dies closer to 33 kph easily
  - jameshart 2y ago
    top speed != average speed
    - haiku2077 2y ago
      That's not the top speed. That's about how fast it goes when I casually ride it on a level bike lane.
- Retric 2y ago
  Top speed on a Magnum Premium 2 is 45kph. So it really depends on where you’re using it as to the kind of average speeds are reasonable. Average 35+kph and they are under 3h per day. It doesn’t seem that unlikely especially if it’s more like 90km than 100.

mongol 2y ago

I converted my regular bike with a Tongsheng motor. It probably is of less quality than Bosch, but I like the repairability aspects of this approach. Spare parts, instruction videos, modularity and lower price. It looks a bit uglier but has worked well for me so far, about a year of riding at least once or twice per week.

mikhailfranco 2y ago

There is a simple scale for water and dirt ingress, e.g. IP65 for protection from water jets and fine dust: https://www.iec.ch/ip-ratings https://www.iec.ch/ip-ratings There are labs that test equipment and verify the claimed ratings. It should be simple for the bike or motor manufacturers to upgrade their seals by one IP step. Most suppliers provide a significant range of IP coverage in their catalogs. The price difference is probably small. The only issue is that any maintenance on the motors has to respect the seals - understand how to disassemble and reassemble without compromising the join.

londons_explore 2y ago
Most ebike motors are air cooled - ie. Outdoor air goes into the motor and flows around the magnets and coils to cool them. Such a design is fundamentally incompatible with being fully water sealed.
- zarzavat 2y ago
  I feel like there must be some clever solution to this using heat sinks / heat pipes.
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    There is, but weight, cost, etc. BLDC motor design also has a conundrum - most of the heat is made in the motor coils, and they can be designed to get up to about 250C, which makes them easy to cool. However, they are wrapped round thermally conductive steel touching thermally sensitive neodymium magnets which have to stay below ~60C for full performance. So it isn't simply a matter of getting rid of heat - it's a game of preventing heat transfer.
    - InSteady 2y ago
      Weight really isn't such an issue with ebikes. I'm riding around a 62lb clunker, carry a 10lb chain lock everywhere, plus I'm hauling big loads of groceries and other crap. Even an extra 5lbs isn't going to make a big difference, nor would an extra $150 to the purchase price if it means years of added longevity. The engineering challenges make sense. Hopefully it is something that is being actively R&D'd.

jll29 2y ago

"The latest units are protected against dust and splash water, according to protection class IP54, and most error codes caused by magnetic interference disappear on restart." This used of "latest" implies Bosch's engineers initially assumed dust and splash water aren't a thing, so by the sound of it they design indoor bike motors for people who hoover very regularly. It's the second part that worries me more, though: "most" (= not all) error codes disappear on research, i.e. you have to regularly reboot your e-bike, like a 1998 Windows PC? Sorry, I never want to reboot an appliance, because real bikes never required that in the past, so it has been shown it is possible. I never want an e-bike, and I don't like throwing away engines because of the environmental damage. Don't people bike because they want to get fit? If not, get a proper motorbike.

jadyoyster 2y ago
> Don't people bike because they want to get fit? People bike because they want to get around. Also, a bicycle is a lot less bulky and more quiet than a motorbike and it doesn't require a license.
ralfd 2y ago
> Don't people bike because they want to get fit? In my city people bike because they want to get from A to B. E-bikes are great for that! They enable reasonable fast biking without breaking into sweat (good for commuting) and in hilly areas. First they enabled senior citizens to bike fast and longer. Then came the mountain e-bikes and made it cool. Than the city hipsters. Then family mum and dad zipping their children around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA&t=168s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhzEnWCgHA&t=168s > If not, get a proper motorbike. Motorbikes are loud and heavy and more expensive. You need a helmet and have to use the road instead of bike lanes. You need a driving license.
- InSteady 2y ago
  Also insurance, yuck. Plus all that gear so that when you have to lay your bike down because some dipshit driver did something insane up ahead of you you can keep at least some of your layers of skin intact.

stavros 2y ago

I notice that we've been seeing a lot of articles here about how e-bikes have motor problems, how EVs don't sell, how EVs have issues, how they "aren't really green", etc, yet we never see any such articles for ICE cars and motorcycles. I wonder why there's such interest in maligning green ways of transportation.

nikanj 2y ago
Why? Because people click & share those articles (”lol see turns out ebikes generate so much waste I’m way more green taking my F250 to work every day”)
- stavros 2y ago
  Yes, and also because some companies have a vested interest in people taking their F250 to work every day, is my point.
bgnn 2y ago
This is only normal and a good thing. Both are adopted as main stream now and they start to age and fail in large numbers, as one would expect. People are disappointed, as one would expect. This will drive the quality up. I don't think there's any intention to malign green transportation. I think there's no return form EVs anymore. Ebikes are a bit ahead of EVs in certain aspects. They had a quick boom, a lot of new brands came up with different models and designs but now most of them are going bankrupt because the sales are slowing down. The main reason is not people don't buy ebikes anymore, but they already bought one! What I find stupid is there are only 3-4 companies producing motors or electronics for ebikes. These parts, as the article points out, are not sourced to customers for repairs. This has to change for more sustainability.
- stavros 2y ago
  I hope there's no return from EVs, but this "some ebikes had problems" sort of thing is only useful for maligning ebikes, as it doesn't really do much for either owners or prospective buyers. It's true about parts, I'd hope that, given how simple ebikes are, there would be a tendency to use easily-replaceable, off-the-shelf components, but I guess companies do want to design custom parts, as that's where they provide value.

dubeye 2y ago

hmm just an extra data point. I've ridden my 2018 bike in wet Scottish winters, across spring rivers, and summer beaches in summer, and it's been fine. could be luck of courser

elzbardico 2y ago

Do manufacturers really test the stuff they sell nowadays?

rjh29 2y ago

In Japan almost everyone uses non electric fixed gear bikes and it seems to work okay. They are dirt cheap too (under $100)

RobinL 2y ago

The article provides zero insight beyond anecodes. The fact a a specialist ebike repair company sees lots of broken ebikes tells you practically nothing about the frequency of problems. The anecdote about 5 failures in a warranty period sounds a bit suspicious and if true is probably a combination of bad luck and extreme usage, or possibly a design flaw in a specific bike model. It's also from a forum post from 5 years ago . That said, as a Bosch ebike owner myself, I'd love to see some decent stats on reliability of different systems. Had no problems myself so far and love it.