8 ms·

Used cars retain designs and features more coveted than their replacements

53 points by uptown 2y ago

igor47 2y ago
I bought an EV, so I'm part of the problem. I hate that it's basically a rack of servers on wheels that I don't have root on, and which track my every move.
- tomxor 2y ago
  The neat classic car conversion kits embody what it could be like, an EV drive train without the fully integrated smart infotainment nightmare world that feels like it might randomly try to force feed you peanuts with an articulated arm at any moment while you try to recall where in the touch screen menu hierarchy the AC controls are located - I digress. Unfortunately they are also prohibitively expensive to be of any practical use to ordinary people. I think there are cheaper EVs that don't have so much crap in them, but they unfortunately also tend to have terrible batteries. I suppose that is the reason they are strongly correlated, only the expensive EVs have decent batteries and just like most new expensive ICE cars they tend to be chocked full of the worst and most and complex technology.
Supermancho 2y ago
https://archive.is/vMEub https://archive.is/vMEub
Supermancho 2y ago
If you had to buy a clothes washer recently, top load is better than side load, agitator is better than no agitator, analog buttons or dial is a plus, et al. Old is better than new. The rude design choices have compounded. Nobody needs an app to know what cycle their washer is at. Anyone using a washer, listens for it. When your display goes out, all the functionality is gone. It's just mind boggling. The 2024 Hyundai Tuscon with 10 year warranty (on top of the manufacturer's 2 year warranty) means this will probably be our last car. It has all the best features of 2019 and has very few rude problems - eg turning off the engine and opening the driver door locks the rear doors. That's not helpful.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Anyone using a washer, listens for it I hate laundry. I still have no idea how to do it; I referred to detergent as laundry sauce a few years ago after forgetting the word. (Thank you, subconscious of mine.) The new machines with screens are a nuisance. Apparently to you, somebody competent. But also to those of us for whom listening to one’s washing machine sounds like advice from a laundry Lorax.
  - candiddevmike 2y ago
    Have you considered spending some time to understand how these machines work? I promise you the operational part in the manual that came with them is probably 10 pages long, and designed to instruct folks with an eighth grade reading level how to do laundry.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Have you considered spending some time to understand how these machines work? Yes, and I really don’t care to. I get some joy out of cooking, small mechanical jobs and even doing dishes. I do not from laundry. My point isn’t that people should love or hate laundry. It’s that the modern technology seems to add no value to either the experts nor amateurs. I vastly prefer simple dials and buttons to the ISS docking procedures some appliances demand for socks.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      > is probably 10 pages long I’ve seen one recently. It’s about 60-200 pages long book (multiple languages) worth of legalese. Same with most appliances and child car seats (which is especially cruel when you had a baby, no sleep for days and try to install one).
  - dexwiz 2y ago
    Laundry is not hard. Go watch a YouTube video. When it doubt, sort by color and size, wash on cold, hang dry. Heat can keep things white or dry things faster, but has higher potential to damage clothes. All mass produced clothes of any value have a care tag that at least has symbols, if not outright written Instructions. EDIT: Reading your bio makes me think of someone who has probably never had to do their own laundry.
Panzer04 2y ago
Are these really the problem? I feel like new cars are obscenely expensive right now. Even a basic car can easily run you 30-40k, the same thing a few years used will be <20k, and a few years more <10k (this is in Australia). The difference between a brand new car and a 10 year old car is almost nil in terms of featureset nowadays (if anything, you get more because you can buy a higher end older model for less), every car has all the basics. Cars just got so good over the last 20-25 years that any vehicle in that age range is a perfectly reasonable choice.
- codedokode 2y ago
  Why there are no $3k-$4k cars? I am sure most people need cheaper cars, not electric cars, or AI cars, or cars with mobile app and telemetry. Those are toys for the rich.
  - jjk166 2y ago
    $3000 for a 2000lb car is $1.50 per pound on average after manufacturing, retail. That's absurd. Raw aluminum is nearly that price. The cost of raw materials alone for a typical US car are over $4000 before any labor has gone into it. The only way you're gonna get a $3000 car is if everyone involved with the production from the mine to the dealership is working for pennies.
  - johnea 2y ago
    I'd like a $4K electric car
    - m463 2y ago
      you can get old used leafs or similar I've seen many few year old used tesla 3s ~ $20k
    - desmond373 2y ago
      Ive been playing with the idea for a kit electric car for a while. It would be cheap but still not that cheap. The expensive part is the battery
Baeocystin 2y ago
I love my '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee for everything but the gas mileage. I especially love that everything is under direct button and dial control, and yet somehow its interior doesn't look like that of a 747. If a 26-year-old car can do it, so can modern ones.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  My '85 VW Vanagon/Transporter Westfalia with 80 hp has direct port fuel injection and gets ~25 mpg. I rarely drive it because EVs are so much damn cheaper and less maintenance.
readthenotes1 2y ago
Old is not better than new, better is better. Better is Lane keeping, breaking assist, and backup cameras. Better is physical buttons and cars without spyware. Better is 50 miles per gallon unless tire residue spreading microplastics all over our environment.
- m463 2y ago
  But nowadays it seems there are always faustian bargains. They are carefully calculated to balance evil^h^h^h^h business interests vs convenience
m463 2y ago
20 hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40604916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40604916
daft_pink 2y ago
I don’t want a new car because I don’t really drive anymore. We work remotely and we have two cars that we rarely drive. Meanwhile my friends waited a year to get the car they wanted. I’m not even going to bother going to the dealer to wait for a new Toyota at that rate. Not really motivated to spend much money on something I barely use.
DavidPiper 2y ago
While I'm also in the anti-touchscreen crowd (and depressed to hear that cost reduction is the core reason they've taken over), I think another reason might be that we've been promised for years that cars (EVs in particular) are on the cusp of a technological revolution. Not just in terms of self-driving features, but also single-charge range and price. If you know next year's car is going to be significantly better - and at worst the same price - why would you buy a car this year?
Animats 2y ago
About two years ago,, the CEO of Stellantis was crowing that they were going to crank up their margins to Apple levels with after-sale feature bills. Not hearing that much any more. The "more crap per car" approach backfired. For a while, rather blah SUVs were reaching for US$100,000. That didn't last. Outside the US, which now has a 100% tariff on cars imported from China, electric cars from China are taking over. Nio and BYD have good cars now. Without subscription-based heated car seats.
cut3 2y ago
My small suv from 2015 was $18k, now they are $40k...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Animats 2y ago
To replace a touchscreen, you need knobs, sliders, and switches. They don't need to directly connect to things; they can just talk CANbus like everything else in a car. You just need low-cost, rugged, standard modules for knobs, lights, sliders, and switches. Make them all the same depth and mount them staked into a PC board. Provide the board with a stiffening rail so the thing feels solid if someone pushes hard. The board has one CANbus output that connects to the dashboard bus. No hand-wiring. Only one thing to install during vehicle assembly. Such controls are used in tractors, heavy trucks, and heavy machinery.[1] They just need to be engineered as a volume product. Probably in Shenzhen. [1] https://www.carlingtech.com/digital-switching https://www.carlingtech.com/digital-switching
smitty1e 2y ago
If buyers want features, this implies a demand in the market. If capitalism is {buyer; market; seller} then demand in the market should draw product from sellers. The market is regulated, so wildly unsafe demands should go unmet. But if the market is over-regulated, then an electoral feedback loop ought to trim excessive regulation so that the market can meet demand. Which brings us to the question: why aren't people running for office on a platform of taking pliers and a blowtorch to the Orwellian regulatory thicket?
- itchyouch 2y ago
  Trump runs exactly on that platform. (I was super surprised actually. ) Dave Chapelle had a really compelling point about why people love Trump. (I don't support him, but describing the observation) At the debates, Trump vs Clinton: T: "The govt is corrupt" C: "Prove it." T: "I use all those tricks myself." C: "Well you don't pay taxes." T: "Then change the rules so I pay. But I know you won't because all your political donors also use those same corrupt tricks." C: ... Of course Trump did nothing to actually change the regulations in a meaningful way, but his supporters do feel that he represents their interests far more than the established, lifetime, incumbent congressfolk.
BadJo0Jo0 2y ago
I can somewhat justify the cost of mid and full size SUVs currently, but still hate that you're looking to spend about 40-60k, more if luxury. The "popularity" of the segment has pushed makers to actually put some effort in handling, fuel efficiency, and reliability. The current offerings of this segment is leaps better than majority of the offerings of mid 2010s and older. However, each maker is just slightly missing the mark here and there, and you are pretty much just cross shopping compromises. Unibody or body on frame? Lose physical buttons? Get touchscreen distractions spanned across your entire dash? Half baked infotainment system? Laughable trunk space with the third row up? No fold flat third row? Off-road/overland trim, but barely capable and/or not even a good enough platform to warrant aftermarket support? At the current prices new or used, how long these cars last when taken care of, and being a "bang for buck"/"buy once cry once" kind of person. Nothing has really been compelling enough for me to purchase a 3 row for my spouse. (Nuclear family with kids really close in age that regularly road trip) When it comes to crossovers, compact, and sedans. (Non sport/performance trims) The prices are alright, just find a solid example of something made within the past decade within your budget, take care of it, it takes care of you. The sports car or performance trim segment is where I'm also torn. On one hand, everything is so much faster, capable, and more reliable (debatable) as time goes on. The other, is that the essence of what made older cars of the same segment great is slowly getting neutered out of the overall driving and owning experience.
- itchyouch 2y ago
  Regarding the sports or performance trim, I feel that it's a price anchoring tactic for margin. They painfully neuter the bottom trim to be able to advertise "starting at" with the most top end model. Then they lock all the desirable features behind the higher trims. All of a sudden, the 29.5k base price is a sham and you have the option between the fully loaded 45k car or the more "reasonable" 39.5k car. But the reality is that the buyer just paid an extra 10k for heated leather seats, keyless entry, slightly upgraded speakers, some bigger wheels and a nicer looking front and rear bumper. They understand that there's multiple psychological games to play. Status, reliability, etc... Advertise with the low price, then upsell, upsell, upsell, and use the finance arm to focus on monthly payments. People are definitely tired of these tactics for sure.
oliwarner 2y ago
> designs and features Nah, it's that new cars drop 50% of their value on the first three years. People are fed up setting fire to their cash. The pressures of living costs don't permit it for many. 3-5yo cars are the sweet spot. The depreciation curve starts to flatten. A good clean and it's as good as new.
jmclnx 2y ago
I 100% agree with the article. The expense if new, internet enabled, much higher insurance rates and taxes keeps me in my 17 year old vehicle. In the US anyway, I think the days of the "open road" is slowly coming to an end.
trashface 2y ago
The article claims people are avoiding CVTs, is this true? I found some stuff on reddit, mostly about older nissans being troublesome and some people not liking how it changes the feel of acceleration, but a lot of people say they are fine. I bought a 9 year old honda recently with a CVT and it seems fine to me, I like how it accelerates but I'm not a pedal stomper. I also like that it has a CD player (can still use the CDs transferred from my previous 27 year old car). Minimalist touchscreen helps too, though its too old to show maps from my phone.
- packetlost 2y ago
  CVTs are universally reviled by the people I associate with, but we're all "car people", so it might just be bias. The problem is they only really work in anemic drive-trains because they can't handle high amounts of torque.

53 points by uptown 2y ago

I bought an EV, so I'm part of the problem. I hate that it's basically a rack of servers on wheels that I don't have root on, and which track my every move.

tomxor 2y ago
The neat classic car conversion kits embody what it could be like, an EV drive train without the fully integrated smart infotainment nightmare world that feels like it might randomly try to force feed you peanuts with an articulated arm at any moment while you try to recall where in the touch screen menu hierarchy the AC controls are located - I digress. Unfortunately they are also prohibitively expensive to be of any practical use to ordinary people. I think there are cheaper EVs that don't have so much crap in them, but they unfortunately also tend to have terrible batteries. I suppose that is the reason they are strongly correlated, only the expensive EVs have decent batteries and just like most new expensive ICE cars they tend to be chocked full of the worst and most and complex technology.

Supermancho 2y ago

https://archive.is/vMEub https://archive.is/vMEub

Supermancho 2y ago

If you had to buy a clothes washer recently, top load is better than side load, agitator is better than no agitator, analog buttons or dial is a plus, et al. Old is better than new. The rude design choices have compounded. Nobody needs an app to know what cycle their washer is at. Anyone using a washer, listens for it. When your display goes out, all the functionality is gone. It's just mind boggling. The 2024 Hyundai Tuscon with 10 year warranty (on top of the manufacturer's 2 year warranty) means this will probably be our last car. It has all the best features of 2019 and has very few rude problems - eg turning off the engine and opening the driver door locks the rear doors. That's not helpful.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Anyone using a washer, listens for it I hate laundry. I still have no idea how to do it; I referred to detergent as laundry sauce a few years ago after forgetting the word. (Thank you, subconscious of mine.) The new machines with screens are a nuisance. Apparently to you, somebody competent. But also to those of us for whom listening to one’s washing machine sounds like advice from a laundry Lorax.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  Have you considered spending some time to understand how these machines work? I promise you the operational part in the manual that came with them is probably 10 pages long, and designed to instruct folks with an eighth grade reading level how to do laundry.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Have you considered spending some time to understand how these machines work? Yes, and I really don’t care to. I get some joy out of cooking, small mechanical jobs and even doing dishes. I do not from laundry. My point isn’t that people should love or hate laundry. It’s that the modern technology seems to add no value to either the experts nor amateurs. I vastly prefer simple dials and buttons to the ISS docking procedures some appliances demand for socks.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    > is probably 10 pages long I’ve seen one recently. It’s about 60-200 pages long book (multiple languages) worth of legalese. Same with most appliances and child car seats (which is especially cruel when you had a baby, no sleep for days and try to install one).
- dexwiz 2y ago
  Laundry is not hard. Go watch a YouTube video. When it doubt, sort by color and size, wash on cold, hang dry. Heat can keep things white or dry things faster, but has higher potential to damage clothes. All mass produced clothes of any value have a care tag that at least has symbols, if not outright written Instructions. EDIT: Reading your bio makes me think of someone who has probably never had to do their own laundry.

Panzer04 2y ago

Are these really the problem? I feel like new cars are obscenely expensive right now. Even a basic car can easily run you 30-40k, the same thing a few years used will be <20k, and a few years more <10k (this is in Australia). The difference between a brand new car and a 10 year old car is almost nil in terms of featureset nowadays (if anything, you get more because you can buy a higher end older model for less), every car has all the basics. Cars just got so good over the last 20-25 years that any vehicle in that age range is a perfectly reasonable choice.

codedokode 2y ago
Why there are no $3k-$4k cars? I am sure most people need cheaper cars, not electric cars, or AI cars, or cars with mobile app and telemetry. Those are toys for the rich.
- jjk166 2y ago
  $3000 for a 2000lb car is $1.50 per pound on average after manufacturing, retail. That's absurd. Raw aluminum is nearly that price. The cost of raw materials alone for a typical US car are over $4000 before any labor has gone into it. The only way you're gonna get a $3000 car is if everyone involved with the production from the mine to the dealership is working for pennies.
- johnea 2y ago
  I'd like a $4K electric car
  - m463 2y ago
    you can get old used leafs or similar I've seen many few year old used tesla 3s ~ $20k
  - desmond373 2y ago
    Ive been playing with the idea for a kit electric car for a while. It would be cheap but still not that cheap. The expensive part is the battery

Baeocystin 2y ago

I love my '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee for everything but the gas mileage. I especially love that everything is under direct button and dial control, and yet somehow its interior doesn't look like that of a 747. If a 26-year-old car can do it, so can modern ones.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
My '85 VW Vanagon/Transporter Westfalia with 80 hp has direct port fuel injection and gets ~25 mpg. I rarely drive it because EVs are so much damn cheaper and less maintenance.

readthenotes1 2y ago

Old is not better than new, better is better. Better is Lane keeping, breaking assist, and backup cameras. Better is physical buttons and cars without spyware. Better is 50 miles per gallon unless tire residue spreading microplastics all over our environment.

m463 2y ago
But nowadays it seems there are always faustian bargains. They are carefully calculated to balance evil^h^h^h^h business interests vs convenience

m463 2y ago

20 hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40604916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40604916

daft_pink 2y ago

I don’t want a new car because I don’t really drive anymore. We work remotely and we have two cars that we rarely drive. Meanwhile my friends waited a year to get the car they wanted. I’m not even going to bother going to the dealer to wait for a new Toyota at that rate. Not really motivated to spend much money on something I barely use.

DavidPiper 2y ago

While I'm also in the anti-touchscreen crowd (and depressed to hear that cost reduction is the core reason they've taken over), I think another reason might be that we've been promised for years that cars (EVs in particular) are on the cusp of a technological revolution. Not just in terms of self-driving features, but also single-charge range and price. If you know next year's car is going to be significantly better - and at worst the same price - why would you buy a car this year?

Animats 2y ago

About two years ago,, the CEO of Stellantis was crowing that they were going to crank up their margins to Apple levels with after-sale feature bills. Not hearing that much any more. The "more crap per car" approach backfired. For a while, rather blah SUVs were reaching for US$100,000. That didn't last. Outside the US, which now has a 100% tariff on cars imported from China, electric cars from China are taking over. Nio and BYD have good cars now. Without subscription-based heated car seats.

cut3 2y ago

My small suv from 2015 was $18k, now they are $40k...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Animats 2y ago

To replace a touchscreen, you need knobs, sliders, and switches. They don't need to directly connect to things; they can just talk CANbus like everything else in a car. You just need low-cost, rugged, standard modules for knobs, lights, sliders, and switches. Make them all the same depth and mount them staked into a PC board. Provide the board with a stiffening rail so the thing feels solid if someone pushes hard. The board has one CANbus output that connects to the dashboard bus. No hand-wiring. Only one thing to install during vehicle assembly. Such controls are used in tractors, heavy trucks, and heavy machinery.[1] They just need to be engineered as a volume product. Probably in Shenzhen. [1] https://www.carlingtech.com/digital-switching https://www.carlingtech.com/digital-switching

smitty1e 2y ago

If buyers want features, this implies a demand in the market. If capitalism is {buyer; market; seller} then demand in the market should draw product from sellers. The market is regulated, so wildly unsafe demands should go unmet. But if the market is over-regulated, then an electoral feedback loop ought to trim excessive regulation so that the market can meet demand. Which brings us to the question: why aren't people running for office on a platform of taking pliers and a blowtorch to the Orwellian regulatory thicket?

itchyouch 2y ago
Trump runs exactly on that platform. (I was super surprised actually. ) Dave Chapelle had a really compelling point about why people love Trump. (I don't support him, but describing the observation) At the debates, Trump vs Clinton: T: "The govt is corrupt" C: "Prove it." T: "I use all those tricks myself." C: "Well you don't pay taxes." T: "Then change the rules so I pay. But I know you won't because all your political donors also use those same corrupt tricks." C: ... Of course Trump did nothing to actually change the regulations in a meaningful way, but his supporters do feel that he represents their interests far more than the established, lifetime, incumbent congressfolk.

BadJo0Jo0 2y ago

I can somewhat justify the cost of mid and full size SUVs currently, but still hate that you're looking to spend about 40-60k, more if luxury. The "popularity" of the segment has pushed makers to actually put some effort in handling, fuel efficiency, and reliability. The current offerings of this segment is leaps better than majority of the offerings of mid 2010s and older. However, each maker is just slightly missing the mark here and there, and you are pretty much just cross shopping compromises. Unibody or body on frame? Lose physical buttons? Get touchscreen distractions spanned across your entire dash? Half baked infotainment system? Laughable trunk space with the third row up? No fold flat third row? Off-road/overland trim, but barely capable and/or not even a good enough platform to warrant aftermarket support? At the current prices new or used, how long these cars last when taken care of, and being a "bang for buck"/"buy once cry once" kind of person. Nothing has really been compelling enough for me to purchase a 3 row for my spouse. (Nuclear family with kids really close in age that regularly road trip) When it comes to crossovers, compact, and sedans. (Non sport/performance trims) The prices are alright, just find a solid example of something made within the past decade within your budget, take care of it, it takes care of you. The sports car or performance trim segment is where I'm also torn. On one hand, everything is so much faster, capable, and more reliable (debatable) as time goes on. The other, is that the essence of what made older cars of the same segment great is slowly getting neutered out of the overall driving and owning experience.

itchyouch 2y ago
Regarding the sports or performance trim, I feel that it's a price anchoring tactic for margin. They painfully neuter the bottom trim to be able to advertise "starting at" with the most top end model. Then they lock all the desirable features behind the higher trims. All of a sudden, the 29.5k base price is a sham and you have the option between the fully loaded 45k car or the more "reasonable" 39.5k car. But the reality is that the buyer just paid an extra 10k for heated leather seats, keyless entry, slightly upgraded speakers, some bigger wheels and a nicer looking front and rear bumper. They understand that there's multiple psychological games to play. Status, reliability, etc... Advertise with the low price, then upsell, upsell, upsell, and use the finance arm to focus on monthly payments. People are definitely tired of these tactics for sure.

oliwarner 2y ago

> designs and features Nah, it's that new cars drop 50% of their value on the first three years. People are fed up setting fire to their cash. The pressures of living costs don't permit it for many. 3-5yo cars are the sweet spot. The depreciation curve starts to flatten. A good clean and it's as good as new.

jmclnx 2y ago

I 100% agree with the article. The expense if new, internet enabled, much higher insurance rates and taxes keeps me in my 17 year old vehicle. In the US anyway, I think the days of the "open road" is slowly coming to an end.

trashface 2y ago

The article claims people are avoiding CVTs, is this true? I found some stuff on reddit, mostly about older nissans being troublesome and some people not liking how it changes the feel of acceleration, but a lot of people say they are fine. I bought a 9 year old honda recently with a CVT and it seems fine to me, I like how it accelerates but I'm not a pedal stomper. I also like that it has a CD player (can still use the CDs transferred from my previous 27 year old car). Minimalist touchscreen helps too, though its too old to show maps from my phone.

packetlost 2y ago
CVTs are universally reviled by the people I associate with, but we're all "car people", so it might just be bias. The problem is they only really work in anemic drive-trains because they can't handle high amounts of torque.