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Violence for property crime is a bit 18th century, no? I've been robbed, and wanted to inflict violence in the heat of the moment, but cooler heads... prison w

Violence for property crime is a bit 18th century, no? I've been robbed, and wanted to inflict violence in the heat of the moment, but cooler heads... prison would be fine, and you know, civilized.

throwup238 2y ago
Prison in the US is hardly civilized.
- skyyler 2y ago
  Depends highly on the region. Most US prisons look like daycare compared to Japanese prisons, wrt prisoner treatment. (The prisons in the southeast US are an exception to this)
  - throwup238 2y ago
    I don't really mean it in the quality of life sense as prison is pretty awful in most of the world, especially in developing countries. The 13th amendment codifies slavery into our prison system and few things are as barbaric in my mind. It's basically a few small rungs down from sacrificing prisoners to Quetzalcoatl and the rain gods, which is graphic but no more dehumanizing. States with prolific death penalties just skip the religious angle. There was an article on HN recently with a photo of a prison work detail in Louisiana that looked like it was straight out of Django Unchained: https://www.apr.org/news/2024-01-29/prisoners-in-alabama-and-louisiana-sue-over-forced-prison-labor https://www.apr.org/news/2024-01-29/prisoners-in-alabama-and...
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      The photo shows them walking in a line next to a guard that doesn't have to walk? I don't get it. A lot of prisoners get treated badly, but the inherent idea of being forced to do labor doesn't strike me as ridiculous. Just about everybody has to work. Comparing it to sacrifice is stupid.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - kube-system 2y ago
        Most people choose their work. I think the sacrifice comparison wasn't to labor, but to the fact that capital punishment is still practiced in the US.
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        > Most people choose their work. Yes, but it's not nearly as big of a gap as the above comment suggests. Being in prison sucks. If there's forced labor that approaches the same magnitude of unpleasantness, or even worse exceeds it, then that's a huge problem. But if it makes prison mildly worse than zero labor, that's not a tremendous issue. > I think the sacrifice comparison wasn't to labor, but to the fact that capital punishment is still practiced in the US. I can't figure out any way to read the comment that way, unless they rewrote part of it and totally messed up the phrasing.
        seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        The labor could actually make prison mildly less worse, as it breaks up the monotony of doing nothing. There is also often some comp, although way below minimum wage, and you can opt out (most don’t).
        kube-system 2y ago
        Whether or not the work sucks is orthogonal to the many reasons slavery is bad. While inmates certainly don't have freedom, they are still not property of the state, and profiting from their labor is both immoral and presents a huge moral hazard to the broader criminal justice system. > I can't figure out any way to read the comment that way ? The comment literally says: > States with prolific death penalties just skip the religious angle. They're talking about the state putting people to death. Human sacrifice is when it was done to placate the gods. Modern day capital punishment is when the state puts people to death to placate the retributive demands of the people.
    - adolph 2y ago
      > It's basically a few small rungs down from sacrificing prisoners to Quetzalcoatl and the rain gods, which is graphic but no more dehumanizing. The sacrifice would then be laid on a stone slab, a chacmool, by four priests, and their abdomen would be sliced open by a fifth priest with a ceremonial knife made of flint. The most common form of human sacrifice was heart-extraction. . . . The cut was made in the abdomen and went through the diaphragm. The priest would rip out the heart and it would then be placed in a bowl held by a statue of the honored god, and the body would then be thrown down the temple's stairs. . . . The body parts would then be disposed of, the viscera fed to the animals in the zoo, and the bleeding head was placed on display in the tzompantli or the skull rack. When the consumption of individuals was involved, the warrior who captured the enemy was given the meaty limbs while the most important flesh, the stomach and chest, were offerings to the gods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_cultu...
      - deleted 2y ago
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      - deleted 2y ago
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    - Spooky23 2y ago
      Like the guy said, the south is different. Most places, jails are just depressing adult daycare.
- deleted 2y ago
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- fennecbutt 2y ago
  Prison aka confinement is a form of violence. A lot of people consider "when the good guy hits the bad guy it's not violence" no no, it's still violence. Restraining someone against their will is a violent act, it's just an acceptable form of violence (that of course I agree with) used by the "Good" to deal with the "bad" (relative terms ofc)
s1artibartfast 2y ago
are you kidding? Serious theft could easily result in death by lynching in the early 20th century, and in some places, later.
ajhurliman 2y ago
How would you handle it? Give them a stern talking-to?
- saagarjha 2y ago
  The comment you replied to provides an alternative.
  - fastball 2y ago
    So they steal from you, and then you get the privilege of your tax dollars paying for their room and board. I dunno, I can see why some people might not be chuffed to bits by that solution.
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      You are welcome to avail yourself of this free room and board anytime you like.
      - fastball 2y ago
        Indeed, but I am uncertain how that relates to my point.
        saagarjha 2y ago
        Describing prison as "free room and board" is absurd. People are not going there by choice. They are there because we as a society say they should be there, and we pay for that as a society. Every attempt to not do that (e.g. by charging people for the cost they impose on the judicial system) has turned out to be an exploitative nightmare. Are you also upset that people steal and therefore your tax dollars need to go towards policing?
        fastball 2y ago
        I didn't say "free room and board" – you did. You also said that going to prison isn't a choice, but also that I can choose to go to prison whenever I want, so which is it? Someone in a sister thread suggested sharia law and chopping off hands, so clearly there are other alternatives besides "society pays for prison" and "the criminal pays for prison". And yes, I am upset that people steal and that this causes more of my tax dollars to go to heightened policing. Why wouldn't I be? Presumably the only people that are not upset about that are criminals and potentially the police.
teitoklien 2y ago
Crime should not be tolerated, criminals thrive on society’s indulgence in being ‘understanding’.
- consumer451 2y ago
  Man, it sounds to me like a few users in this thread wouldn’t mind some good ole Sharia Law. Can’t steal if you don’t have a hand!
  - teitoklien 2y ago
    Why do you immediately think of it as that violent ? , Not tolerating the crime, involves arresting the person, and penalizing them with fines and other consequences for a while, and then if possible work on improving their living standards and help them get a job to get out of a life of crime. Not tolerating crime does not mean shooting people up or inflicting wounds on them, why should it be that extreme ? , either inflict wounds on people or let them go free with misdemeanor charges ? It just kills the conversation and scope to actually fix this rise in crime mess, that is spreading everywhere.
    - spost 2y ago
      Your two sibling comments are currently "Why is the comfort of the aggressor more important than the comfort of the innocent victim?" And "Yes." The assumption that some people in this thread are in favor of violence seems to be borne out.
    - nucleardog 2y ago
      > Why do you immediately think of it as that violent ? , Not tolerating the crime, involves arresting the person, and penalizing them with fines and other consequences Different branch of these threads: > So they steal from you, and then you get the privilege of your tax dollars paying for their room and board. I dunno, I can see why some people might not be chuffed to bits by that solution. If we’re going to make sure we get appropriate vengeance, and we’re not going to pay to incarcerate them… what do we have left? Physical punishment? Slavery? Unless bankruptcy of a person (without any assets to begin with) alone is a sufficient punishment for these crimes, I’m all out of ideas on where this could go. You may not be who he was referring to, but the people he was referring to certainly seem to be present.
IshKebab 2y ago
I don't think they were suggesting that violence is the preferred option. But I don't think there's any country where law enforcement cares about bike theft, so prison isn't really an option. Edit: I found a great article about that for the UK here: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle-magazine/justice-cycle-theft https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle-magazine/justice-cycle-theft > Ministry of Justice records show that in the five-year period between June 2017 and June 2022, just 159 people (out of roughly 350,000 bike theft cases) were found guilty of bike thefts and only two of these were given immediate custodial sentences. The police could do way more, but it's easier to victim blame ("register your bike, use two locks, etc.")
fennecbutt 2y ago
I suppose you're yet to realise that violence pretty much underlines everything we do, the whole structure of our society. Its really unfortunate but it's true, peer through the thin veneer of society and it's just violence. "It's all violence?" "Always has been"
mikrotikker 2y ago
It's not just property theft. It's the victimisation and predation of a community. Violence is a universal language that the predators can understand innately.
seany 2y ago
There has to be some kind of personality distribution thing here with how people view this kind of thing. My general take is "I'm attacked, _especially_ if I'm with family; just shoot them. There isn't even a quibble in my head.

Violence for property crime is a bit 18th century, no? I've been robbed, and wanted to inflict violence in the heat of the moment, but cooler heads... prison would be fine, and you know, civilized.

throwup238 2y ago

Prison in the US is hardly civilized.

skyyler 2y ago
Depends highly on the region. Most US prisons look like daycare compared to Japanese prisons, wrt prisoner treatment. (The prisons in the southeast US are an exception to this)
- throwup238 2y ago
  I don't really mean it in the quality of life sense as prison is pretty awful in most of the world, especially in developing countries. The 13th amendment codifies slavery into our prison system and few things are as barbaric in my mind. It's basically a few small rungs down from sacrificing prisoners to Quetzalcoatl and the rain gods, which is graphic but no more dehumanizing. States with prolific death penalties just skip the religious angle. There was an article on HN recently with a photo of a prison work detail in Louisiana that looked like it was straight out of Django Unchained: https://www.apr.org/news/2024-01-29/prisoners-in-alabama-and-louisiana-sue-over-forced-prison-labor https://www.apr.org/news/2024-01-29/prisoners-in-alabama-and...
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    The photo shows them walking in a line next to a guard that doesn't have to walk? I don't get it. A lot of prisoners get treated badly, but the inherent idea of being forced to do labor doesn't strike me as ridiculous. Just about everybody has to work. Comparing it to sacrifice is stupid.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - kube-system 2y ago
      Most people choose their work. I think the sacrifice comparison wasn't to labor, but to the fact that capital punishment is still practiced in the US.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        > Most people choose their work. Yes, but it's not nearly as big of a gap as the above comment suggests. Being in prison sucks. If there's forced labor that approaches the same magnitude of unpleasantness, or even worse exceeds it, then that's a huge problem. But if it makes prison mildly worse than zero labor, that's not a tremendous issue. > I think the sacrifice comparison wasn't to labor, but to the fact that capital punishment is still practiced in the US. I can't figure out any way to read the comment that way, unless they rewrote part of it and totally messed up the phrasing.
        seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        The labor could actually make prison mildly less worse, as it breaks up the monotony of doing nothing. There is also often some comp, although way below minimum wage, and you can opt out (most don’t).
        kube-system 2y ago
        Whether or not the work sucks is orthogonal to the many reasons slavery is bad. While inmates certainly don't have freedom, they are still not property of the state, and profiting from their labor is both immoral and presents a huge moral hazard to the broader criminal justice system. > I can't figure out any way to read the comment that way ? The comment literally says: > States with prolific death penalties just skip the religious angle. They're talking about the state putting people to death. Human sacrifice is when it was done to placate the gods. Modern day capital punishment is when the state puts people to death to placate the retributive demands of the people.
  - adolph 2y ago
    > It's basically a few small rungs down from sacrificing prisoners to Quetzalcoatl and the rain gods, which is graphic but no more dehumanizing. The sacrifice would then be laid on a stone slab, a chacmool, by four priests, and their abdomen would be sliced open by a fifth priest with a ceremonial knife made of flint. The most common form of human sacrifice was heart-extraction. . . . The cut was made in the abdomen and went through the diaphragm. The priest would rip out the heart and it would then be placed in a bowl held by a statue of the honored god, and the body would then be thrown down the temple's stairs. . . . The body parts would then be disposed of, the viscera fed to the animals in the zoo, and the bleeding head was placed on display in the tzompantli or the skull rack. When the consumption of individuals was involved, the warrior who captured the enemy was given the meaty limbs while the most important flesh, the stomach and chest, were offerings to the gods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_cultu...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    Like the guy said, the south is different. Most places, jails are just depressing adult daycare.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
fennecbutt 2y ago
Prison aka confinement is a form of violence. A lot of people consider "when the good guy hits the bad guy it's not violence" no no, it's still violence. Restraining someone against their will is a violent act, it's just an acceptable form of violence (that of course I agree with) used by the "Good" to deal with the "bad" (relative terms ofc)

s1artibartfast 2y ago

are you kidding? Serious theft could easily result in death by lynching in the early 20th century, and in some places, later.

ajhurliman 2y ago

How would you handle it? Give them a stern talking-to?

saagarjha 2y ago
The comment you replied to provides an alternative.
- fastball 2y ago
  So they steal from you, and then you get the privilege of your tax dollars paying for their room and board. I dunno, I can see why some people might not be chuffed to bits by that solution.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    You are welcome to avail yourself of this free room and board anytime you like.
    - fastball 2y ago
      Indeed, but I am uncertain how that relates to my point.
      - saagarjha 2y ago
        Describing prison as "free room and board" is absurd. People are not going there by choice. They are there because we as a society say they should be there, and we pay for that as a society. Every attempt to not do that (e.g. by charging people for the cost they impose on the judicial system) has turned out to be an exploitative nightmare. Are you also upset that people steal and therefore your tax dollars need to go towards policing?
        fastball 2y ago
        I didn't say "free room and board" – you did. You also said that going to prison isn't a choice, but also that I can choose to go to prison whenever I want, so which is it? Someone in a sister thread suggested sharia law and chopping off hands, so clearly there are other alternatives besides "society pays for prison" and "the criminal pays for prison". And yes, I am upset that people steal and that this causes more of my tax dollars to go to heightened policing. Why wouldn't I be? Presumably the only people that are not upset about that are criminals and potentially the police.

teitoklien 2y ago

Crime should not be tolerated, criminals thrive on society’s indulgence in being ‘understanding’.

consumer451 2y ago
Man, it sounds to me like a few users in this thread wouldn’t mind some good ole Sharia Law. Can’t steal if you don’t have a hand!
- teitoklien 2y ago
  Why do you immediately think of it as that violent ? , Not tolerating the crime, involves arresting the person, and penalizing them with fines and other consequences for a while, and then if possible work on improving their living standards and help them get a job to get out of a life of crime. Not tolerating crime does not mean shooting people up or inflicting wounds on them, why should it be that extreme ? , either inflict wounds on people or let them go free with misdemeanor charges ? It just kills the conversation and scope to actually fix this rise in crime mess, that is spreading everywhere.
  - spost 2y ago
    Your two sibling comments are currently "Why is the comfort of the aggressor more important than the comfort of the innocent victim?" And "Yes." The assumption that some people in this thread are in favor of violence seems to be borne out.
  - nucleardog 2y ago
    > Why do you immediately think of it as that violent ? , Not tolerating the crime, involves arresting the person, and penalizing them with fines and other consequences Different branch of these threads: > So they steal from you, and then you get the privilege of your tax dollars paying for their room and board. I dunno, I can see why some people might not be chuffed to bits by that solution. If we’re going to make sure we get appropriate vengeance, and we’re not going to pay to incarcerate them… what do we have left? Physical punishment? Slavery? Unless bankruptcy of a person (without any assets to begin with) alone is a sufficient punishment for these crimes, I’m all out of ideas on where this could go. You may not be who he was referring to, but the people he was referring to certainly seem to be present.

IshKebab 2y ago

I don't think they were suggesting that violence is the preferred option. But I don't think there's any country where law enforcement cares about bike theft, so prison isn't really an option. Edit: I found a great article about that for the UK here: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle-magazine/justice-cycle-theft https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle-magazine/justice-cycle-theft > Ministry of Justice records show that in the five-year period between June 2017 and June 2022, just 159 people (out of roughly 350,000 bike theft cases) were found guilty of bike thefts and only two of these were given immediate custodial sentences. The police could do way more, but it's easier to victim blame ("register your bike, use two locks, etc.")

fennecbutt 2y ago

I suppose you're yet to realise that violence pretty much underlines everything we do, the whole structure of our society. Its really unfortunate but it's true, peer through the thin veneer of society and it's just violence. "It's all violence?" "Always has been"

mikrotikker 2y ago

It's not just property theft. It's the victimisation and predation of a community. Violence is a universal language that the predators can understand innately.

seany 2y ago

There has to be some kind of personality distribution thing here with how people view this kind of thing. My general take is "I'm attacked, _especially_ if I'm with family; just shoot them. There isn't even a quibble in my head.