8 ms·

Every time I see something like this, I'm a bit sad, that we live in a world where tablets (especially iPad M4) have comparable performance to most laptops, but

Every time I see something like this, I'm a bit sad, that we live in a world where tablets (especially iPad M4) have comparable performance to most laptops, but we still cannot run a general purpose OS (macOS/Linux/Windows) on them. Tablets are surely capable of running VSCode, Docker, VMs, etc. locally, and from UX standpoint, VSCode is basically Chromium, so experience would be the same if these tools ran directly on device.

infotainment 2y ago
Agreed; Apple’s restrictions on the iPad should be illegal, IMO. It’s ridiculous how crippled they are, and all in the name of making sure people feel compelled to also buy a laptop.
- theshrike79 2y ago
  I agree, but we should also make restrictions on smart TVs and gaming consoles illegal too. Both the Xbox and PS5 are 100% commodity hardware, not being able to run our own software on it is a really weird limitation. One that people even on HN have accepted while simultaneously ragging on Apple's "walled garden".
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Actually that is not the case with XBox, you can have your own applications there without rooting it. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devk...
    - codetrotter 2y ago
      But can you use the Xbox itself to locally develop and run your own software? Or do you still need to use another computer or an online service via web browser?
    - ach9l 2y ago
      And you can say "Actually that is not the case with iPad, you can have your own applications there without rooting it." have you heard of Xcode? still... you are missing the point, you can't even use an iPad to properly code for iPad
    - BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
      That is the exactly the same weak, crippled, sandboxed bullshit that Apple gives you for your iPad. OP wants to run an OS on these devices, not that.
  - rezonant 2y ago
    If you just changed "but" to "and" you'd get your point across with less a sense of whataboutism. Yes, all platforms should be free. Personally it feels like devices that are marketed as general purpose have a higher expectation that people can use them for general purposes, but it is definitely true that any device you purchase should allow you to run whatever software you want on it.
  - rfoo 2y ago
    Yeah, that's why I refuse to buy PS5, iPhone and iPad. I have a Switch though, thanks to Nintendo's incompetency on locking it down.
  - zakki 2y ago
    Are you going to bring your Smart TV and PS5 for VSCoding anywhere and anytime?
    - codetrotter 2y ago
      There are many people who can’t afford to buy both a computer and a PS5 and some of them choose to buy PS5. Would be nice to let those people use the PS5 hardware for what it is really capable of, including being able to run a desktop OS on it.
      - vundercind 2y ago
        The number of people who can so barely afford a PS5 that they can’t also afford a computer (these are a hell of a lot cheaper than a PS5), but are willing to screw with their PS5 in ways likely to mess it up in one way or another (if only making gaming impossible without further tinkering) is approximately zero.
  - steve1977 2y ago
    But you know these restrictions when you buy the device. Same with the Apple ecosystem. So why make it illegal?
    - franga2000 2y ago
      Because it's an artificial limitation to make the company more money, at the expense of customer experience and the environment (yes, locked-down hardware is also a sustainability issue!). Ideally, companies would exist to serve the public and so such selfish anti-consumer behaviour would be illegal. Unfortunately, they don't and current law seems to affirm that.
      - mosselman 2y ago
        I’d also like to be able to run anything on an iPad. But I know I can’t so I don’t buy it. I find this notion that companies should do what we want ridiculous. You know the features and capabilities upfront or you can at least and then you can decide to buy or not.
        franga2000 2y ago
        There are many problems with the "just don't buy it" argument. Mainly, that often times, the alternatives have huge unrelated down-sides. Apple makes the best tablet hardware by a large margin, but it's totally locked down. If I want a good tablet, I have bo real alternatives.
        scarface_74 2y ago
        So even though as a user you have alternatives, you don’t want to buy one of those alternatives so Apple should make exactly what you personally want?
        franga2000 2y ago
        No, I'm saying that Apple is so far ahead of the competition and this market is so hard to enter, that they essentially have a monopoly in the category "tablet computer that isn't shit". And no, it's not that they should make what I want, it's that they should not prevent me from using their device in a way that I want.
- arijun 2y ago
  My fear is that such a regulation would end up being a net negative for the consumer. Apple would protect MacBook sales in other ways, e.g. crippling iPad hardware. Genuine question: if it was a net negative, would that still be worth it in your eyes?
- unsupp0rted 2y ago
  Companies should be able to make whatever device they want. I use iPhone/iPad when I want to be fairly confident that nobody's actively screenshotting my every move.
  - DaSHacka 2y ago
    Being able to install any OS onto your hardware would let you avoid running an OS that screenshots your every move in the first place
    - unsupp0rted 2y ago
      The more doors you open intentionally, the more doors become open unintentionally. If I wanted a device that allows installation of any OS, I would buy one. Companies like “Honor” are already doing a good job of cloning Apple’s UX. Go right ahead… nobody’s stopping manufacturers from making fully hackable phones.
- can16358p 2y ago
  I get your point, especially given the enormous power of the hardware and capabilities, but there is no surprise here: their hardware, their software, and you know what you are buying (it's not like it was open then it was remotely locked down) so everyone agreed at the time of purchase. What part of this can be made illegal?
  - nicoburns 2y ago
    Anything can be made illegal. I agree it's tricky to create a general rule here. My suggestion would be to require bootloaders to be unlocked such that custom operating systems can be installed on it (and yes this could apply to smart TVs, games consoles, etc too). That wouldn't get it us macOS, but it would get us Linux and incentivise Apple to provide macOS too.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  So should it also be illegal for game consoles not to run a general purpose OS? The Apple displays also run a version of iOS, should it also be illegal for them not to run full versions of iOS? I have some sympathy for the argument about side loading, the inability to have alternate app stores etc and the things that the EU is addressing haphardly. But saying the government should mandate that Apple must support MacOS on iPads is a bridge too far.
pjmlp 2y ago
Many devs are also to blame, there are enough hybrid laptops around to pick from, so basically they are voting with their wallet validating that this kind of workarounds are acceptable.
prmoustache 2y ago
Can't UTM allow you to do just that albeit in a VM?
- lxgr 2y ago
  Not in the App Store, and I believe on recent iOS versions not even with reasonable performance (due to a lack of JIT and/or hardware virtualization support, I believe). Even if it’s possible, the point is that iPad OS really feels like it’s intentionally holding back the power user experience for the sake of being more accessible to new users in a way that e.g. macOS doesn’t.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    From what I understand it is in AltStore which is installable without another device in UE and still installable running AltServer on a separate computer. Annoying I understand. But fairly easy to anyone motivated to get it. As for the performance they say: "The lack of hardware virtualization on Apple A-chips means that even for ARM code we must re-compile it with JIT. Therefore performance would never reach the levels possible with KVM. There is also no support for GPU virtualization so that means no DirectX or OpenGL. This makes most modern games non-playable." I guess it would be at least good enough to run an IDE, git and have terminal access provided any serious compilation is done remotely and not locally. And might even be good enough to run some lightweight containers. EDIT: seeing that on ios 14 devices it needs to be jailbroken, so I guess it is best used on "obsolete" models.
    - tannerellen 2y ago
      The Altstore they are referring to is the sideload version, not the EU store that was just released. This requires a computer to install the IPA file. Once you install UTM using this sideloading method the only way to activate JIT to make UTM useable in any meaningful way is to be on the same local network as a computer with SideJitServer installed and running. Then you can use an emulated OS and drain your battery super fast. Long story short UTM is not currently a solution. Apple either needs to allow JIT for all apps or SideJitServer needs to do the impossible and figure out a way to activate over a remote connection.
sebtron 2y ago
Or even smartphone-sized devices (not saying "smartphone" because of the expectations for those in terms of battery life and telephony). With keyboard in my backpack I could have a legit pocket-size general purpose computer. I am keeping an eye on Starlabs new intel-based linux tablet [1], I am curious what the reviews will be like once it finally ships. [1] https://starlabs.systems/pages/starlite https://starlabs.systems/pages/starlite
- enceladus06 2y ago
  The iPhone 15 pro could be a general purpose computer, but Apple doesn’t want that. Imagine plugging your phone into a Lightning dock and then it is running full macOS or Ubuntu in a vm, with Bluetooth keyboard and mouse support. This is possible from a hardware perspective (look at Samsung dex), and would actually bring innovation to the smartphone market, but we allow Apple/google/friends to lock down our hardware bc of profits.
steve1977 2y ago
> Every time I see something like this, I'm a bit sad, that we live in a world where tablets (especially iPad M4) have comparable performance to most laptops, but we still cannot run a general purpose OS (macOS/Linux/Windows) on them. Sad Surface Pro noises…
madeofpalk 2y ago
The M4 iPad Pro is the fastest computer Apple sells right now.
- black3r 2y ago
  Only if all you care about is single core performance. Macbooks with M3 Pro and M3 Max beat M4 in multi-core performance because they have more cores.
More-nitors 2y ago
this people will definitely pay a big premium to get: a surfacebook with M4 chip with macOS
- bartekrutkowski 2y ago
  While not exactly the same, it will be close enough for Apple not to do it - it's called MacBook Air and it will be out with M4 soon enough (I guess). Back in they day they had 11" MacBook line and I loved it, wish they'd bring it back.
  - diffeomorphism 2y ago
    I guess with the dell xps 13 having tandem oled now, this might arrive eventually. However, right now the screens are big differentiators between the ipad pro and macbook air.
alexpc201 2y ago
Apple sees the iPads as art creation devices. You may well argue coding is an art, but not for Apple.
- goosedragons 2y ago
  This is baloney. Here's a literal quote from their iPad Air "Why iPad" [0] page, "iPad is so versatile, it’s more than up to any task." They market them as do anything devices with art as a option. Hell that same page even talks about building your coding skills in Swift Playground although who knows what you're supposed to do when you advance beyond that level? I guess in Apple's mind buy a Mac? https://www.apple.com/ipad-air/why-ipad/ https://www.apple.com/ipad-air/why-ipad/ And of course, they call out the iconic, but complete bullshit, "there's an app for that" with many tasks not in fact having an app for that.
kkapelon 2y ago
I use a Surface Pro with VScode and it works the same as a desktop. Since it is so light, I now take it with me at conferences/vacation instead of a full laptop. I have given full presentations on stage that include a live demo with VScode and a local K8s cluster. It just works.
cultofmetatron 2y ago
I'm praying the next generation of arm laptops running windows arm won't have locked own bootloaders preventing me from installing linux.
helpfulContrib 2y ago
[dead]
nicoburns 2y ago
It boggles my mind that Apple don't release an iPad that runs macOS. It would sell like hotcakes. And with the M series chips they have already developed the technology to have multiple securely segregated OS's on the same device (so they could have it run iPad OS too if they wanted to).
- xnyan 2y ago
  The answer seems obvious to me, ipad running macos would then compete with the mac. It’s the same reason apple does not release a laptop with a touch screen.
- skydhash 2y ago
  MacOS on touchscreen is not that great (think graphics tablet). So you’ll still have to bring a keyboard and a mouse/trackpad everywhere. I’d rather see they make it more convenient to run your own software. It’s either 99 usd a year or 7 days installation.
  - nicoburns 2y ago
    They already sell a case with a keyboard/touchpad
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

infotainment 2y ago

Agreed; Apple’s restrictions on the iPad should be illegal, IMO. It’s ridiculous how crippled they are, and all in the name of making sure people feel compelled to also buy a laptop.

theshrike79 2y ago
I agree, but we should also make restrictions on smart TVs and gaming consoles illegal too. Both the Xbox and PS5 are 100% commodity hardware, not being able to run our own software on it is a really weird limitation. One that people even on HN have accepted while simultaneously ragging on Apple's "walled garden".
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Actually that is not the case with XBox, you can have your own applications there without rooting it. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devk...
  - codetrotter 2y ago
    But can you use the Xbox itself to locally develop and run your own software? Or do you still need to use another computer or an online service via web browser?
  - ach9l 2y ago
    And you can say "Actually that is not the case with iPad, you can have your own applications there without rooting it." have you heard of Xcode? still... you are missing the point, you can't even use an iPad to properly code for iPad
  - BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
    That is the exactly the same weak, crippled, sandboxed bullshit that Apple gives you for your iPad. OP wants to run an OS on these devices, not that.
- rezonant 2y ago
  If you just changed "but" to "and" you'd get your point across with less a sense of whataboutism. Yes, all platforms should be free. Personally it feels like devices that are marketed as general purpose have a higher expectation that people can use them for general purposes, but it is definitely true that any device you purchase should allow you to run whatever software you want on it.
- rfoo 2y ago
  Yeah, that's why I refuse to buy PS5, iPhone and iPad. I have a Switch though, thanks to Nintendo's incompetency on locking it down.
- zakki 2y ago
  Are you going to bring your Smart TV and PS5 for VSCoding anywhere and anytime?
  - codetrotter 2y ago
    There are many people who can’t afford to buy both a computer and a PS5 and some of them choose to buy PS5. Would be nice to let those people use the PS5 hardware for what it is really capable of, including being able to run a desktop OS on it.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      The number of people who can so barely afford a PS5 that they can’t also afford a computer (these are a hell of a lot cheaper than a PS5), but are willing to screw with their PS5 in ways likely to mess it up in one way or another (if only making gaming impossible without further tinkering) is approximately zero.
- steve1977 2y ago
  But you know these restrictions when you buy the device. Same with the Apple ecosystem. So why make it illegal?
  - franga2000 2y ago
    Because it's an artificial limitation to make the company more money, at the expense of customer experience and the environment (yes, locked-down hardware is also a sustainability issue!). Ideally, companies would exist to serve the public and so such selfish anti-consumer behaviour would be illegal. Unfortunately, they don't and current law seems to affirm that.
    - mosselman 2y ago
      I’d also like to be able to run anything on an iPad. But I know I can’t so I don’t buy it. I find this notion that companies should do what we want ridiculous. You know the features and capabilities upfront or you can at least and then you can decide to buy or not.
      - franga2000 2y ago
        There are many problems with the "just don't buy it" argument. Mainly, that often times, the alternatives have huge unrelated down-sides. Apple makes the best tablet hardware by a large margin, but it's totally locked down. If I want a good tablet, I have bo real alternatives.
        scarface_74 2y ago
        So even though as a user you have alternatives, you don’t want to buy one of those alternatives so Apple should make exactly what you personally want?
        franga2000 2y ago
        No, I'm saying that Apple is so far ahead of the competition and this market is so hard to enter, that they essentially have a monopoly in the category "tablet computer that isn't shit". And no, it's not that they should make what I want, it's that they should not prevent me from using their device in a way that I want.
arijun 2y ago
My fear is that such a regulation would end up being a net negative for the consumer. Apple would protect MacBook sales in other ways, e.g. crippling iPad hardware. Genuine question: if it was a net negative, would that still be worth it in your eyes?
unsupp0rted 2y ago
Companies should be able to make whatever device they want. I use iPhone/iPad when I want to be fairly confident that nobody's actively screenshotting my every move.
- DaSHacka 2y ago
  Being able to install any OS onto your hardware would let you avoid running an OS that screenshots your every move in the first place
  - unsupp0rted 2y ago
    The more doors you open intentionally, the more doors become open unintentionally. If I wanted a device that allows installation of any OS, I would buy one. Companies like “Honor” are already doing a good job of cloning Apple’s UX. Go right ahead… nobody’s stopping manufacturers from making fully hackable phones.
can16358p 2y ago
I get your point, especially given the enormous power of the hardware and capabilities, but there is no surprise here: their hardware, their software, and you know what you are buying (it's not like it was open then it was remotely locked down) so everyone agreed at the time of purchase. What part of this can be made illegal?
- nicoburns 2y ago
  Anything can be made illegal. I agree it's tricky to create a general rule here. My suggestion would be to require bootloaders to be unlocked such that custom operating systems can be installed on it (and yes this could apply to smart TVs, games consoles, etc too). That wouldn't get it us macOS, but it would get us Linux and incentivise Apple to provide macOS too.
scarface_74 2y ago
So should it also be illegal for game consoles not to run a general purpose OS? The Apple displays also run a version of iOS, should it also be illegal for them not to run full versions of iOS? I have some sympathy for the argument about side loading, the inability to have alternate app stores etc and the things that the EU is addressing haphardly. But saying the government should mandate that Apple must support MacOS on iPads is a bridge too far.

pjmlp 2y ago

Many devs are also to blame, there are enough hybrid laptops around to pick from, so basically they are voting with their wallet validating that this kind of workarounds are acceptable.

prmoustache 2y ago

Can't UTM allow you to do just that albeit in a VM?

lxgr 2y ago
Not in the App Store, and I believe on recent iOS versions not even with reasonable performance (due to a lack of JIT and/or hardware virtualization support, I believe). Even if it’s possible, the point is that iPad OS really feels like it’s intentionally holding back the power user experience for the sake of being more accessible to new users in a way that e.g. macOS doesn’t.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  From what I understand it is in AltStore which is installable without another device in UE and still installable running AltServer on a separate computer. Annoying I understand. But fairly easy to anyone motivated to get it. As for the performance they say: "The lack of hardware virtualization on Apple A-chips means that even for ARM code we must re-compile it with JIT. Therefore performance would never reach the levels possible with KVM. There is also no support for GPU virtualization so that means no DirectX or OpenGL. This makes most modern games non-playable." I guess it would be at least good enough to run an IDE, git and have terminal access provided any serious compilation is done remotely and not locally. And might even be good enough to run some lightweight containers. EDIT: seeing that on ios 14 devices it needs to be jailbroken, so I guess it is best used on "obsolete" models.
  - tannerellen 2y ago
    The Altstore they are referring to is the sideload version, not the EU store that was just released. This requires a computer to install the IPA file. Once you install UTM using this sideloading method the only way to activate JIT to make UTM useable in any meaningful way is to be on the same local network as a computer with SideJitServer installed and running. Then you can use an emulated OS and drain your battery super fast. Long story short UTM is not currently a solution. Apple either needs to allow JIT for all apps or SideJitServer needs to do the impossible and figure out a way to activate over a remote connection.

sebtron 2y ago

Or even smartphone-sized devices (not saying "smartphone" because of the expectations for those in terms of battery life and telephony). With keyboard in my backpack I could have a legit pocket-size general purpose computer. I am keeping an eye on Starlabs new intel-based linux tablet [1], I am curious what the reviews will be like once it finally ships. [1] https://starlabs.systems/pages/starlite https://starlabs.systems/pages/starlite

enceladus06 2y ago
The iPhone 15 pro could be a general purpose computer, but Apple doesn’t want that. Imagine plugging your phone into a Lightning dock and then it is running full macOS or Ubuntu in a vm, with Bluetooth keyboard and mouse support. This is possible from a hardware perspective (look at Samsung dex), and would actually bring innovation to the smartphone market, but we allow Apple/google/friends to lock down our hardware bc of profits.

steve1977 2y ago

> Every time I see something like this, I'm a bit sad, that we live in a world where tablets (especially iPad M4) have comparable performance to most laptops, but we still cannot run a general purpose OS (macOS/Linux/Windows) on them. Sad Surface Pro noises…

madeofpalk 2y ago

The M4 iPad Pro is the fastest computer Apple sells right now.

black3r 2y ago
Only if all you care about is single core performance. Macbooks with M3 Pro and M3 Max beat M4 in multi-core performance because they have more cores.

More-nitors 2y ago

this people will definitely pay a big premium to get: a surfacebook with M4 chip with macOS

bartekrutkowski 2y ago
While not exactly the same, it will be close enough for Apple not to do it - it's called MacBook Air and it will be out with M4 soon enough (I guess). Back in they day they had 11" MacBook line and I loved it, wish they'd bring it back.
- diffeomorphism 2y ago
  I guess with the dell xps 13 having tandem oled now, this might arrive eventually. However, right now the screens are big differentiators between the ipad pro and macbook air.

alexpc201 2y ago

Apple sees the iPads as art creation devices. You may well argue coding is an art, but not for Apple.

goosedragons 2y ago
This is baloney. Here's a literal quote from their iPad Air "Why iPad" [0] page, "iPad is so versatile, it’s more than up to any task." They market them as do anything devices with art as a option. Hell that same page even talks about building your coding skills in Swift Playground although who knows what you're supposed to do when you advance beyond that level? I guess in Apple's mind buy a Mac? https://www.apple.com/ipad-air/why-ipad/ https://www.apple.com/ipad-air/why-ipad/ And of course, they call out the iconic, but complete bullshit, "there's an app for that" with many tasks not in fact having an app for that.

kkapelon 2y ago

I use a Surface Pro with VScode and it works the same as a desktop. Since it is so light, I now take it with me at conferences/vacation instead of a full laptop. I have given full presentations on stage that include a live demo with VScode and a local K8s cluster. It just works.

cultofmetatron 2y ago

I'm praying the next generation of arm laptops running windows arm won't have locked own bootloaders preventing me from installing linux.

helpfulContrib 2y ago

[dead]

nicoburns 2y ago

It boggles my mind that Apple don't release an iPad that runs macOS. It would sell like hotcakes. And with the M series chips they have already developed the technology to have multiple securely segregated OS's on the same device (so they could have it run iPad OS too if they wanted to).

xnyan 2y ago
The answer seems obvious to me, ipad running macos would then compete with the mac. It’s the same reason apple does not release a laptop with a touch screen.
skydhash 2y ago
MacOS on touchscreen is not that great (think graphics tablet). So you’ll still have to bring a keyboard and a mouse/trackpad everywhere. I’d rather see they make it more convenient to run your own software. It’s either 99 usd a year or 7 days installation.
- nicoburns 2y ago
  They already sell a case with a keyboard/touchpad

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]