10 ms·
Breathwork supports emergence of altered states of consciousness
- Argonaut998 2y agoFYI: Not all breath-work is hyperventilating.
- unrealp 2y agoThe study that has been mentioned talks about Holotropic Breathwork and Consciously-Connected breathwork are. I have worked with CCB.
- colechristensen 2y agoI wonder what other effects this has on the body. The signaling around CO2 levels does a lot to cellular respiration everywhere, not just the brain (think krebs cycle, etc).
- smeej 2y agoThere's a product out, Freespira, that does breath work training monitored by a nasal cannula, to help people who experience panic attacks. The theory is that such people are chronic hyperventilators, so their blood CO2 is too low for the parasympathetic nervous system to operate correctly. It didn't end up being a good fit for me, but if a person's PTSD comes from discrete events rather than a continually unsafe environment in early childhood, I think they'd have a better experience. (My parasympathetic nervous system never learned how to operate correctly, but if someone else's did and its function got interrupted later, I think their experience would be different.)
- rendx 2y agoInteresting! Thanks for the pointer.
- plaguuuuuu 2y agoStrange side note. I've tried n-acetylcysteine as a supplement/medication, the weirdest thing about it is that I felt like I needed to breathe less often. And like I was breathing manually - which you are also doing now, ha. I wonder if it helps with panic attacks.
- AnthonBerg 2y agoThis makes immediate sense to me after having stumbled upon some of the academic literature on N-acetylcysteine. There are results on it being anti-anxiety, yes. Tons and tons of results; Wide scope. Pulmonary and neurobiological. The wildest paper imo: “N-acetyl cysteine reverses bio-behavioural changes induced by prenatal inflammation, adolescent methamphetamine exposure and combined challenges” – https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-017-4776-5 https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-017-4776-5 It’s just an… :exploding-head: paper. There are also studies that check if humans fall into or out of various psychiatric disorder diagnostic criteria. Yes, NAC is anti-anxiety. And! NAC is clearly and obviously mucolytic. Slime-dissolving. Its use as prescription and OTC medicine in my country is—I think, so far—exclusively as a lung-slime dissolver to help people breathe better.
- ajb 2y agoIt's a very interesting paper. However, it's in rats, so among other things the timescale is very compressed compared to humans: we are taking about three NAC reversing changes 1-2 months later
- AnthonBerg 2y agoAh, indeed, I would like to add that I’d never expect anything fully “the same” to happen in us. Nonetheless, it does work!, tons of more studies out there. It’s wild to me that this substance—sold OTC as a mucolytic!—can have an impact like that in an animal model, and the molecular biology mechanisms of how it happens that the study shows are… well, yes, :exploding-head:
- mjklin 2y agoRoss and Carrie covered this on their podcast back in 2017, they had out of body experiences I believe. Link: https://ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2017/10/21/ross-and-carrie-high-perventilate-holotropic-breathwork-edition https://ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2017/10/21/ross-and-c...
- rqtwteye 2y agoHolotropics has been around for quite a while and some yoga pranayamas also can lead to altered states. I have to admit I find mushrooms easier to deal with.
- hackernewds 2y agoAn ascetic will tell you that a purer experience of spiritual connection is something you can control and remember afterwards.
- foobiekr 2y agoYou remember mushrooms after.
- Traubenfuchs 2y agoAhhh yes, the bespoke, organic, pesticide free high of the true people. Why struggle when 10-20€ worth of ketamine will make you glide through impossible (un)existence for an hour or so. Elitism and snobbism in spirituality and meditation circles is real!
- FrustratedMonky 2y agoSpiritual Elitism Aside. One method is adjusting CO2/O2 levels. And if Yoga, you are moving and there are body/mind connections, even weight lifters can experience this. Even just stretching. Versus laying on the couch on drugs. Psychedelic's do "something", but not the "same thing".
- AstralStorm 2y agoRemember what, the tingling mess and neuronal misfires of endogenous DMT release experience?
- rqtwteye 2y agoThere is a always a purer version of any experience. This sounds a little elitist.
- 2y ago
- m3kw9 2y agoWhat about LSD
- MrLeap 2y agoIs circular breath work just hyper ventilating?
- notnaut 2y agoYep. Feels good man. Same as all the psychs. And altered perspective can make you wiser.
- yencabulator 2y agoBut hyperventilating sounds scientific and reductive circles are mystical and sell well! And we gotta separate our ancient shamanic yogi breathing school from those damn box breathing gurus!
- suroot 2y agoMy buddy goes into schizophrenia episodes every time he goes for a long run. Any ideas?
- DANmode 2y agoAcute toxicity due to distribution of accumulated toxin (of some kind) by the violent action of running.
- rustcleaner 2y agoProbably this House M.D. -tier answer.
- fredoliveira 2y agoIt can't be House M.D. because the diagnostic isn't lupus.
- DANmode 2y agoAlso, participated in the group differential, instead of waiting until the end of the thread to sullenly come in and tell the patient that, by the way, I figured it out, you're being fucked over by a toxin. Seemingly more the Dr. Foreman type.
- MrLeap 2y agoYour buddy ought to see a healthcare professional, I'm just some guy on the internet. That said: here's a description of prodromal schizophrenia. Your description reads like category #2 to me. "Prodrome phase can also be categorized in three different ways: Category 1 means the patient should have at least one of the following symptoms: False beliefs that random events in the world directly relate to them, odd beliefs, or magical thinking; visual disturbance; odd thinking and speech; paranoid ideation; and odd behavior or appearance. Category 2 includes patients who have experienced psychotic symptoms that come and go, which have spontaneously resolved within a week. Category 3 includes a combination of genetic risk (i.e., being the first-degree relative of an individual with a diagnosis of schizophrenia) with substantial changes in personal daily functioning in the previous year. " https://www.verywellhealth.com/prodromal-schizophrenia-5194244 https://www.verywellhealth.com/prodromal-schizophrenia-51942...
- ergonaught 2y agoIt isn’t new, even for the academic community, that modulating CO2 levels via breathing alters consciousness. Some of these sound more like advertisements.
- khimaros 2y agoif this topic interests you, check out this interview with Dr. Jack Feldman: https://hubermanlab.com/dr-jack-feldman-breathing-for-mental-physical-health-and-performance https://hubermanlab.com/dr-jack-feldman-breathing-for-mental... -- i found the section about the effects of periodic hypoxia without retaining CO2 quite fascinating.
- aunty_helen 2y agoI’ve done a session of holotropic breathwork before. It was a surprisingly strong experience. 25 minutes of rapid deepish breathing while listening to music. I was doing it as part of a group session and funnily it was conducted via zoom. After the first 10, it becomes easy to keep the breathing pace. Moderately deep hallucinations, sweating a _lot_ on the bed. The weirdest part was that my face wanted to screw up in contortions. I felt my lips tight and couldn’t control my facial muscles until they hurt. I lost track of time and the session felt like it ended quickly. Afterwards there was a positivity mindset like a mild mushroom afterglow. I would probably do it again.
- simple10 2y agoYes! Holotropic is crazy strong. I remember having to sign a waiver that was akin to a skydiving waiver before doing holotropic breathwork session online. Highly recommended if you feel inclined to try it.
- adastra22 2y agoThat sounds like your body telling you not to do it.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 4ndrewl 2y agoStrong Darwin Award vibes here
- pharrington 2y agoIt sounds like you experienced oxygen deprivation.
- hackernewds 2y agooxygen deprivation is not euphoric. shouldn't be so flippantly reductive
- swayvil 2y agoI think the ancient yoga wizards of yore called that "Pranayama".
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- _akhe 2y agoCombination of excess oxygen and rhythmic/yogic type trance?
- unrealp 2y agoSounds counter intuitive but breathwork reduces o2 to brain. Basically due to reduced co2, blood vessels in the brain constrict. Having said that, I worked with a breathwork teacher for a while, creating narrative for the session, for mental imagery and guidance. It also had music as a backdrop. Fun times. And it was definitely altered state for a lot of people.
- ay 2y agoAny pointers to read more ? My GP friends only pointed me to respiratory alcalosis, which doesn’t appear to be about O2 levels at all - it’s the pH being out of the narrow “acceptable” band (too low in the case of hyperventilation) appeared to cause a lot of effect.
- unrealp 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation - This leads to hypocapnia, a reduced concentration of carbon dioxide dissolved in the blood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocapnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocapnia - Acute hypocapnia causes hypocapnic alkalosis, which causes cerebral vasoconstriction leading to cerebral hypoxia Though not acute, you can see the effects very easily. Within couple of minutes of deep breathing we could create peripheral numbing and tingling effect. (yoga folk say you are feeling energy moving though body and that kind of stuff haha)
- ay 2y agoThank you! The second link was the missing one for me ;-) I did a breath work session once out of curiosity, but it was so much voodoo talk and so much obvious exploitative power dynamics from the “guru” after the session, I could barely hold my disgust. (But yeah, I got both tingling and cramps on top of that) Deliberately reducing the oxygen to the brain sounds like a not so good plan to me, regardless of what it is caused by… I recently acquired the pulse oximeter that can be worn during sleep, and the correlation of oxygen levels during the night with how I feel in the morning is seemingly pretty strong.
- 2y ago
- ilaksh 2y agoJust the word "breathwork" is obnoxious to me. I suppose it's interesting that if you hyperventilate enough you can reduce oxygen in your brain to the point where you hallucinate. And that is probably safer than taking psychedelics. But the idea that you would do that routinely seems obviously stupid to me. I think if you keep doing it for a number of years then you could damage your brain. My understanding is that your brain needs oxygen.
- gardnr 2y agoGot that one backwards: > Hyperventilation is irregular breathing that occurs when the rate or tidal volume of breathing eliminates more carbon dioxide than the body can produce. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation
- yorwba 2y agoRemoving carbon dioxide via your lungs doesn't mean your brain gets more oxygen. The "altered states of consciousness" are symptoms of oxygen deprivation which can be induced in other ways, but maybe hyperventilation is a particularly fun way to do it.
- _yb2s 2y agoThey were correct. Hemoglobin needs CO2 to release oxygen. If you are low on CO2 your tissues become oxygen deprived.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- andybak 2y agoIt seems obvious to me that the things you find obviously stupid, obviously aren't.
- codr7 2y agoI take it you haven't put a lot of effort into examining the practice? Pranayama is a pretty comprehensive system, and it has survived to this day for good reasons.
- EMM_386 2y agoI've done breathwork sessions before. It felt strange, yes you can midly hallucinate and feel "otherworldly" but I always left thinking "ok, I just hyperventilated for 20 minutes ... this is exatly how I'd expect to feel". And now we have a scientific study that proves it. It seemed pretty obvious to me.
- wouldbecouldbe 2y agoThat's a very technologist know it all answer. As if we fully understand, brain, conciousness, biology, body & spiritual experiences fully. There is so much to learn. The questions for instance arises how does this connect to emotional & spiritual experiences that derive from those practices. It's the same with psychedelics, they are chemically induced but often lead to meaningful experiences due a shift in the way we experience reality & conciousness. Is it a peak into a wider experience of the world that makes us realize the world as we experience it, might not be as real as we think it is? Who knows, so many interesting questions & options.
- bowsamic 2y agoKant already explained this in the mind of all “technologist know it all” though
- EMM_386 2y agoThe funny thing is I spend my free time learning as much as I can about consciousness, alterered states of consciousness, the nature of reality, spirtual experiences, all that stuff. That's how I ended up in a breathwork session. But I still live in the universe, and the universe follows rules. In this case, my body's CO2/Oxygen imbalance was out of whack, and I probably should have started breathing into a paper bag. Consciousness is cool and all, but doing solid breathwork for over 20 minutes will upset the balance of molecules impotrant to a functioning consciousness. So while you may feel yourself soaring toward another dimension, it's your brain screaming for oxygen. My 2 cents.
- barrenko 2y agoThis is opening callback to birth trauma.
- FrustratedMonky 2y agoThere are a lot of breathing methods out there, like this, and Wim Hof. Is there any side by side comparisons. Side by Side Down to exact method. So many breaths, long, short, lengths, times. I'd really like to know if it all boils down to just O2/CO2 balance, and each method just ends up with a different ratio.
- elif 2y agoAs wim would say, get high on your own supply. But in seriousness hyperoxia is mildly psychedelic, especially when you are in a state (athletic, euphoric, love etc) which naturally produces high levels of serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, etc. When I was backpacking for 7 months with my wife, I would climb mountains as fast as I could and wait for her at the tops. I started doing wim hof while waiting and it was deeply rewarding
- grugagag 2y agoHow exactly do you ‘do’ wim hof and for how long?
- mettamage 2y agoIf you’re open to it, I can teach you. My email is in my profile
- thomascgalvin 2y agoThe Wim Hof method is explained here: https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises
- nico 2y agoHere’s a guided video by Wim Hof, you can just listen to it while you lay down and follow along: https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?feature=shared https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?feature=shared
- boringg 2y agoTo add to this - if you get buried in an avalanche you likely go hypoxic. Many people pulled out sometimes in the moment react negatively to be saved as they are pulled out of a euphoric state even though they are literally getting saved from death.
- swader999 2y agoJust don't do Wim Hof type breathing while driving, near water or risk of fall is high. You can pass out or faint easily if you do it a little wrong.
- malloryerik 2y agoI’ve read of a credible person who says they use breathwork of some kind to help enter a state of flow. Does anyone here know if this sounds right? If so, how would one learn? Books? Courses? Coaches? Also, knowing nothing about it I’d assumed the breathwork would be like mindfulness or meditative breathing, but is this wrong? It might be something closer to hyperventilating?
- mtalantikite 2y agoThe article mentioned Holotropic Breathwork, which is a method Stanislav Grof came up with after no longer being able to use LSD for his research in the 1960s. I haven't taken a course in it, but it does seem similar to Wim Hof's technique, which you can follow along an intro of on his YouTube [1]. All of it is pretty similar to various pranayama techniques that have existed in the yogas for thousands of years though. Iyengar's Light on Pranayama is a good resource for the various practices [2]. While Wim Hof and Holotropic Breathwork are slightly different, the closest to them from the yogas would maybe be bhastrika pranayam (and here's a random guy on YouTube that comes up when googling it -- just skimming it and it looks basically like what I was taught [3]). Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question regarding how pranayama/breathwork compares to meditation. It's different than meditation (dhyana or jhana), but it's complimentary and there are elements that are similar. For instance, during pranayama practice you'll often have breath holds/retentions and during that time you'll be instructed to bring your awareness to something (a point on your body, on the awareness itself, etc). This is generally what you'd do in formal meditation practice too, but in this case it's for a much shorter period of time (the length of the breath hold). So in a way it gets you used to working with your awareness, to bring it internal for short periods of time many times. Many people will practice pranayama before beginning formal seated meditation practice. I personally use nadi shodhana before meditation practice, and more vigorous pranayamas like kapalbhati and bhastrika before/during/after asana practice. They're also good to do in the middle of the day when you need a bit of a reset. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ [2] https://archive.org/details/iyengar-bks-light-on-pranayama-ocr/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/iyengar-bks-light-on-pranayama-o... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I578H4VoZiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I578H4VoZiY
- eigenschwarz 2y agoThis sounds great but I just can't get by the oxygen deprivation and potential harm to your brain. Not to mention the hypercapnia induced tetany is very uncomfortable and seems a clear signal from the body that "this isn't good!". [As part of a psychedelic retreat we did breathwork the day before the trip to "open the mind". I faked it because I was worried about the above unanswered questions I had. I still had a great trip and feel no need for another one or similar (ie. via breathwork) to this day. :) ]
- nradov 2y agoFree divers experience the same hypoxia and hypercapnia effects. Doesn't seem to be a problem.
- Enginerrrd 2y agoI think I recall reading a paper a while back on free divers that showed there was damage being done to the brain even though it wasn't immediately apparent. Similar to how lots of small brain impacts add up in football players.
- mightyham 2y ago> Doesn't seem to be a problem I'm almost certain any amount of oxygen deprivation is damaging to the brain. If there were studies that showed conclusions to the contrary, I'd be very curious to read them.
- gonzo41 2y agoThey die all the time. It's a problem. :P
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jobs_throwaway 2y agoOxygen deprivation? As noted in the study, circular breathwork has been shown to increase blood oxygenation
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y agoOne should avoid this. It damages the brain. Better is just pure meditation where you can reach bliss states pretty fast once you can get access concentration.
- jobs_throwaway 2y agocitation needed
- labrador 2y agoBreathwork is a really uncomfortable experience. I lay on a floor mat hyperventilating for an hour with a group of people only to feel a little expanded. Breathwork was developed as an alternative to psychedelics becasue those were illegal, and now that psilocybin is readily available in California there's no need for it. Thumbs down.