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I went the opposite way (in the UK) and moved from development (mainly C#) to lorry driving (everything from 12T rigids to 44T artics) however in my free time I

• gcbirzan 2y ago
  Ironically, in an industry that highly regulates working times...
  • kgf1980 2y ago
    Yes, work is covered under both the Working Time Directive (which I’ve opted out of the night work limit and the 48hr working week) and the EU Drivers Hours rules - work are hot on infringements for exceeding working hours but more so on breaches of driving hours or insufficient rest hours.
• pavel_lishin 2y ago
  I am consistently enjoying myself more when doing coding side projects, than anything at work. I think that's just ... sort of normal when your profession and your hobby are the same thing - when you don't have any boss except yourself.
  • kgf1980 2y ago
    I think for me it’s not having a time pressure - if it takes me 2 weeks spending 2 hours a day to implement something there’s no issue when it’s just projects for myself (I’ve basically written a PWA for tracking my pay, hours, rest time etc which I use every day, and implement a new feature I decide would be useful when it comes up, so kind of the ultimate dog-fooding)
    • ipaddr 2y ago
      I' m the opposite. I put myself under 2 week sprints at home. Imagine someone is working on the same idea and put pressure on myself to get done and release. At work I hold things an extra day or more so I have something easy to say at the standup. Stands ups at work force this slow pace because it sounds better and is easier for others to follow.
  • Swizec 2y ago
    To share an opposite anecdata: After many years of coding side projects and work projects, I no longer get a kick out of side projects. They just don’t scratch the itch anymore. They just pale in interestingness/size/complexity compared to what I get to do at work and if I wanted a big enough side project to scratch the itch, then it would require a team to get done and wouldn’t be a side project.
  • pipes 2y ago
    I've heard with lorry driving there are issues with vibrations causing physical harm eventually? Maybe that is nonsense? If you don't mind me asking how much were you earning as a developer and how much do you earn driving lorries?
    • kgf1980 2y ago
      I’ve not had any issues with vibrations but I’ve not been driving perhaps long enough? That said, the newer generation of trucks are so smooth I don’t think that’s as much of an issue as it may have been in previous generations. Wage wise, working as a developer in the UK (working for small consultancies, not startups etc) my wage topped out at around 38k - last year driving I earnt 46k and this year with promotion (from rigid to articulated vehicles) and annual payrise, plus assuming I work a similar amount of hours I’m estimating 52-55k (all before tax)
      • throwaway5959 2y ago
        I’ll never understand why developers there make less than the US. It’s not like they aren’t providing similar scale/leverage to a business.
        • badpun 2y ago
          By some estimates, the US is home to 50% of world's globally reaching corporations. Software written at those companies has giant business implications (thanks to those companies' scale), and thus the devs can be better compensated for their work.
          • 369548684892826 2y ago
            If this was the reason then UK developers working for US companies would be paid better
            • badpun 2y ago
              Not neccessarily. Companies just pay each country's market wages. The difference between US and UK is that large amount of developer positions with high return on investment (for the company) pushes US market wages upwards - all those megacorps are competing for a limited pool of US people, and can afford to compete on salaries.
  • jmkni 2y ago
    I've come to realise that actually coding is the part of software development I enjoy the least, and in many staff software engineer positions, that is basically entirely what you are doing Other people are doing the fun/interesting stuff, project managers, product owners, scrum masters, etc etc are doing all of the fun interesting figuring out/thinking, and then it's just your job to code it. When you work on side projects, you get to wear all of those other hats and it's way more rewarding
    • doctor_eval 2y ago
      Not really related to your points but I feel that separating design and implementation is a mistake; the people designing and implementing should be, if not the same people, then certainly in the same room, and in constant contact. So it could be that, if you’re in a world where you aren’t getting to do any of the fun figuring-out stuff, perhaps that’s a problem with the workplace structure rather than with programming generally. I enjoy a bit of everything, and am apparently lucky to have been able to do it for a long time.
    • pavel_lishin 2y ago
      Wild! Coding, for me, is the fun part - implementing the solution, once I've come up with one. I've never looked at a product owner or a scrum master and thought to myself, "man, those guys get to have all the fun." I've more often thought, "wow, they have to answer to three people, two of whom are assholes, who have four opinions on how things should be done between them."
    • cudgy 2y ago
      Opposite for me. Much rather code an abomination than hash out the abomination in meetings all day with scrum “masters”, product “owners”, and software “engineers”.
    • turdprincess 2y ago
      Actually coding is the domain of mid level and senior engineers. Staff engineers architect, design technical strategy, collaborate across teams. A proper staff engineer might only see code during review or a proof of concept.
  • treflop 2y ago
    For me, I enjoy programming but just as a tool. I enjoy it like I do my table saw. But I use my table saw because I want to build certain stuff. Maybe a cabinet or something. You would never catch me using my table saw or programming “just for fun.” And if I’m not enjoying what I’m building, it’s not like the tool will somehow make it enjoyable.
• klondike_klive 2y ago
  Interesting! Do you enjoy the lorry driving? I've thought about it but one of my concerns is having to manoeuvre around tiny village high streets (lived in a village where houses were regularly hit!) Is there much of that? Are you under a lot of pressure to deliver in super tight time frames? And how long did it take you to get your HGV licence? Cheers.
  • kgf1980 2y ago
    It takes surprisingly little time to get used to the size - that said I’m more confident I the rigid vehicles than the artics in terms of tighter manoeuvring. Most of my work is trunking however so distribution centre to distribution centre, generally at most 5miles from a motorway, for customer deliveries I do have to take some smaller country roads, which are nerve-racking at first but now I’ll take much more confidently. I enjoy being left alone with podcasts for the first 4-6hours of my shift and music for the rest, I tend to talk to the office 3 times a shift - once when I get my keys, once to find out what (if anything) is getting loaded for a second run and finally to hand my keys in - all in all 10mins interaction with “management” over a 10hr shift suits me fine. Time wise, taking my Thursday shift - I’m booked at Heathrow airport to deliver at 7pm, if I’m 30-45mins late there’s no issues, but I generally leave to get there at 1840 so even if roads are bad I’m still “on-time” - after that I have a collection (anytime after 1900) which has to be at the customer (2hrs drive) by 0200 and I’m generally there by 2200 - I am lucky in the company I work for leave plenty of time for everything including breaks, I know other places run you around and try to get 10hrs work done in 8. In terms of time for license, I had 4 days training for my rigid (anything over 7.5T with a trailer upto 750kg) with test on the last day which I passed first time, I then drove them for 6 months for my current employer and then again had 4 days training and test on the 5th for artics (anything over 7.5T with a trailer over 750kg) which I passed first time (thanks in part to driving rigids for 6months and being generally confident with the size etc of the vehicle)
    • klondike_klive 2y ago
      Thanks for such a detailed response:)
• deleted 2y ago
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• walthamstow 2y ago
  Are you away from home much? Do you have a spouse and/or kids?
  • kgf1980 2y ago
    I don’t do nights out or away, so I’m home every night (morning as I work 3pm until I’m done, generally 1-2am, sometimes 5am) No spouse or kids which probably helps and is why I don’t mind picking up overtime and extra shifts
• madaxe_again 2y ago
  >> although that may reflect more on my skills/level as a developer than anything else Nah, that reflects on the U.K. - developers are generally miserably underpaid, and there’s a massive shortage of freight drivers since Brexit for no apparent reason whatsoever.
  • bmoxb 2y ago
    > there’s a massive shortage of freight drivers since Brexit for no apparent reason whatsoever. The main reason is that most drivers were Eastern European and since freedom of movement ended it has become significantly harder for them to come and work as freely as they could before. Covid is also a factor afaik. Though I otherwise agree with you that developers (or rather white collar careers in general with the exception of certain finance roles) are not particularly well paid in many instances in the UK.
    • IntelMiner 2y ago
      I believe the users comment was deeply sarcastic and they are in underlying agreement with your assertion
      • bmoxb 2y ago
        I think you're right - I'm embarassed to have not picked up on that.
  • dukeyukey 2y ago
    Worth pointing out that among non-US countries, the UK has among the highest developer pay. This isn't the UK under-paying, it's the US being a massive outlier.
    • User23 2y ago
      Truck drivers in the USA can easily make well into the six figures as owner operators. It’s not gonna compete with FAANG (except maybe on oilfields?), but it’s a very good living. And of course if you’re good at running yourself as a business you have the skills to run other drivers too if you choose to invest in a fleet. Heck, for a while Amazon was paying people to quit and start trucking.
• cloudripper 2y ago
  I appreciate stories like this as a reminder that it is never too late to make a change in your life that is right for you. Some folks stick to their comforts and avoid such a big life change out of fear - but sometimes the temporary discomfort can lead to greater fulfillment in the long-run. Whether your coming from or going to lorry driving - or any other job role, keep telling your story and maybe your path will be an inspiration for someone going through their own jaded, burn-out experience.
• datascienced 2y ago
  This is what rest of the world looks like USA people! Developers are generally paid enough to get by but not crazy salaries. There are exceptions but required you to get through tough interviews. No $200k TC interns out here. It means picking up a trade or just doing a scrum master job or traffic duties become viable alternatives. Developers are caught in stagflation. Buying a property in Sydney metro area (within 90m commute) for example would be challenging for most devs. Prices have tripled and over the frame of 15y while dev salaries or contract rates have not increased.
  • BoorishBears 2y ago
    But I was promised free healthcare and more vacation time makes it all even! (I've always loved that narrative for its optimism. In reality if you have a modicum of self-restraint you can save more money on a US salary than most people are making on a European salary, and tech tends to have excellent healthcare.)
    • niemandhier 2y ago
      It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US. After computing what I would have to pay for: - Piano lessons for the kids - child care - sports clubs - golfing - private tutors - rent / mortgage I concluded that my quality of life would decrease. Europe is crazy cheep for families. The UK is particular, brexit did not do them any good.
      • pedrosorio 2y ago
        > It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position in the US. 100k+ has been close to the floor for entry level for a while now. Did you do the math on how much you'd earn over 10 years?
        • yoyohello13 2y ago
          100k is the floor? Where do you live? I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries.
• trey-jones 2y ago
  Yeah, from my point of view we're going to need more 38 year-olds starting new careers as developers to replace those of us that started at 28 and are ready to move on. I'm about 13 years in, but have been burned out for at least 5 years and I'm finally ready to admit it. Get me out of here.
• hnthrowaway0328 2y ago
  I thought about making the same move but quickly dropped the idea when I see this: The average salary for a truck driver is $24.98 per hour in Montréal, QC. That's less than a third of my cash compensation. I do wish getting a non programming laid back day job so that I can program happily in my free time. I kinda gave up the idea to find a programming job that I love to do -- it's just technically too tough to get into one of those low level programming jobs.
  • cudgy 2y ago
    Are you average?
    • hnthrowaway0328 2y ago
      Average on what? I'm sure my truck driving skill is less than the average truck drivers.
• levidos 2y ago
  What's the max someone can earn as a HGV driver in the UK?
  • kgf1980 2y ago
    I’d guesstimate if you were in a high-demand/niche role with a high hourly rate, plus you can max out your hours each week, probably around £65k?
• pc86 2y ago
  The best thing I ever did for my love of programming was moving (temporarily) into management. All of a sudden I was spending 10-15 hours weekly in nights and weekends writing more code than I previously had been in 40 working hours. It's amazing what a combination of a) working on your own things that you're more passionate about and b) not spending 20-25 hours coding already will do for your motivation.
• phendrenad2 2y ago
  Same. It's nice to not have the pressure of delivering on vague and intangible goals. I just move cargo from point A to B. Simple as. Also, my home life has improved greatly because I don't have thoughts of work in the back of my mind. I took a vacation recently and it was the first time in 10+ years I felt like I was really on vacation.
  • kgf1980 2y ago
    For me it’s the fact I hand my keys in at the end of a shift, and I don’t have to think about work until I go in for my next shift - liberating after years of checking work emails from the sofa at night.