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Time will tell but I feel like $15 max 1x/day is too low. Drivers are already likely paying other tolls, expensive monthly parking in Manhattan, gas. Another $1
by tempsy 3y ago
Time will tell but I feel like $15 max 1x/day is too low. Drivers are already likely paying other tolls, expensive monthly parking in Manhattan, gas. Another $15/day is not likely to change behavior.
- proaralyst 3y agoLondon's congestion charge is £15 (about $18) and has largely been a success. I suspect there's a difference in PPP though, so the Manhattan charge is potentially less impactful
- tempsy 3y agoPeople in NYC make much more. So if it's less in NYC than London then I'm even more convinced that it won't do that much for congestion.
- wwarner 3y agoIt can be a successful way to raise money for the subway system even if it doesn't help much with congestion.
- bluGill 3y agoThe nyc subways have a spending problem. if they could build and run it at normal world prices things would be much better.
- atkailash 3y agoMedian rent is also 2x London’s. Median pay is less than 3x. That’s not even counting the rest of cost of living changes It’ll only affect working class people who commute by driving for whatever reason. As usual the actual rich won’t care. The majority of NYers don’t even own a car. So it’s mostly tourists and people from outside the city (plus ride share/taxis) who are driving.
- StressedDev 3y agoDo you have a source for this? London is not known as a poor city. In addition, some people in both cities are wealthy but a lot more are not. I doubt someone living in the South Brox or Far Rockaway can afford a $15/day charge.
- Symbiote 3y agoI don't answer your question, but I had a quick look for statistics and found this beautiful map — zoom in all the way! It broadly shows there are rich and poor areas of London, but I don't know if it's better to be in the bottom 10% in London or New York. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/smallareamodelbasedincomeestimates/financialyearending2020 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...
- chgs 3y agoThe bottom 10% in london can’t afford insurance for the car, let alone parking.
- Reason077 3y agoI've lived in both rich(ish) and poor(ish) areas of London over the years. Clapham, Fulham/West Brompton, and Maida Vale in the "rich" west. Whitechapel, Poplar, and the Isle of Dogs in the "poor" east. It is my general observation that the "rich" areas suffer more from traffic congestion and pollution, because more people own cars and more of those cars tend to be giant diesel Range Rovers and such. In the east it seems like while there are still a lot of parked cars everywhere, people don't actually drive them around as much, choosing the bus/train/bike/feet more often for everyday travel. Also worth remembering that even the "poor" parts of London are still pretty rich by overall UK standards.
- tempsy 3y agoI'm talking about people who already have the means to drive into midtown manhattan as is, with all the tolls and gas and monthly parking bills they're already going to pay. For these people I'm saying I do not see an extra $15 1x/day being a difference maker.
- timr 3y agoLondon's congestion charge is just City of London. That's an incredibly tiny portion of London. In terms of impact, this is closer to putting congestion pricing on everything inside of M25.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> London's congestion charge is just City of London This is only lower Manhattan.
- timr 3y agoNo, it's everything south of 60th, and essentially every ingress/egress to the city, other than Randalls Island, the GW, and the Bronx.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> it's everything south of 60th You’re right. It’s lower and midtown Manhattan. That said, it doesn’t include most of Manhattan let alone New York City. The core question is what someone who won’t pay $15 and refuses to not drive into the city during its most congested hours is bringing to the table. That is harsh. But it is a trade-off a city must make with its limited resources.
- timr 3y agoThe "rich person driving into the city" is a scapegoat. Get rid of those people (whom I absolutely do not care about taxing; it's fine, whatever), and the streets will still be crammed with the traffic supporting all the people who live here. And under this plan, those trucks, buses, taxis, etc. will be taxed to the tune of billions of dollars a year. As someone who hasn't owned a car in well over a decade, but lives in NYC and pays for things here -- and yes, even takes the occasional taxi when the MTA sucks -- this is what I resent. Setting aside the corruption and incompetence of the MTA (which we should absolutely not set aside), this is little more than a regressive tax on the people who live here, dressed up like anti-car activism.
- spywaregorilla 3y agoHow has it been a success? I'm not familiar.
- chgs 3y agoWhenever I’ve parked in central london it’s been £50 for the day, the congestion charge is meaningless compared with the cost of petrol and parking.
- notatoad 3y agois round-trip bus or train fare into the city higher or lower than $15/day? it seems like if they can just make the car a higher marginal cost per day than transit, that should do a lot.
- tempsy 3y agoDriving is already likely a lot more expensive, so yeah I'm suggesting that if drivers have already made that decision as is I don't see another $15/day being a huge difference maker. Monthly garage parking in midtown is like $800/month.
- atkailash 3y agoIt’s like $5.80 (2.90 each way iirc) assuming you don’t have to leave one station to get to another. As long as you’re behind the turnstiles you don’t have to pay again (for trains)
- Jcampuzano2 3y agoYes, round-trip bus and train fare work out to lower than $15 per day by a pretty large margin. If you were to only go into the city and out via subway/train i.e. two rides a day it would work out closer to around $6 per day which is already lower than the $15 cost which also doesn't include cost of gas and parking making it likely much higher of a cost for cars. Of course many people take the train many more times than that per week but thats where OMNY comes in with a per week maximum cost for using transit. If you use OMNY there is a max you can be charged per week. Essentially all rides are free after your 12th ride per 7 day period. Since the cost of a ride on busses or subway is $2.90 that works out to a max of ~$35 per week for unlimited rides all over the city via train or bus. I don't live in NYC anymore, but when I did I could never imagine owning a car given the financial burden not being justifiable, but obviously those that do have one are likely in a much higher tax bracket than I am, or are going there for business purposes.
- BillSaysThis 3y agoThis is per car and bus/train/subway are per person.
- xhkkffbf 3y agoI think they want the revenues more than they want to change behavior. They want it to be low enough to keep the cars and the tolls flowing, but high enough to generate revenue.
- 7speter 3y agoMta is in nearly $50 billion in debt last I read
- nox101 3y agothey should privatize like Japan did. setup the correct insentives like Japan did and it seems to work. train companies own hotels, malls, grocery stores, office building, and apartments at and near their stations. This creates a virtuous cycle where the better the train service the more people patronize their other services and visa versa
- QuarterReptile 3y agoPeople normally react with disgust, not rational calculation, to tolls. They'll drive in ways that not only discounts any value to their time, bu lt also in ways where the additional mileage costs more than the toll they're avoiding. So, give it a chance and then ratchet up. $15 would certainly upset me.
- tempsy 3y agoWell, you probably wouldn't be paying $800/mo just to park in midtown as is then.
- QuarterReptile 3y agoGuilty. I could make the math work for another mode of transportation very easily in that scenario..
- dtnewman 3y agoIt will definitely affect a lot of people around the margins. Right now, if you commute from North Jersey, you might pay $250 a month in bridge tolls, $600 a month for parking and another $100 for gas (I’m assuming you commute 20 days a month). This will add another 300 bringing your total from $750 a month to $1050. Many people will commute by car anyway, but that is not an insubstantial increase.
- esotericimpl 3y ago[dead]
- bogota 3y agoLike most things it will push poorer people out, middle income will be annoyed and slightly more poor, and people with money won’t even notice
- supertrope 3y agoPeople pay attention to explicit costs. Sometimes irrationally so. e.g. Sales of Tesla Model S cars were predicted to decrease with gas prices. Even though a $500/year swing in fuel cost does not meaningfully change total cost of ownership on a $70,000 car.
- fasthands9 3y agoAnother way you can phrase that is that the lion share of the tax will be on wealthy people, so it's a progressive tax. I've seen conflicting studies - but in general I don't think poor people living around Manhattan have cars or are parking in Manhattan. Less than half of all people in NYC have cars.
- zeroonetwothree 3y agoI suppose in that sense consumption taxes are progressive. It’s not usually how we use that word…
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- mgiampapa 3y agoSo one of the big things this will do is encourage mass transit from the eastern new york / Manhattan river crossings. It has never been (and will continue to not be) a level playing field for commuters. Coming in from Brooklyn or Queens there are a lot of commuters that drive into lower Manhattan which until now was entirely un-tolled. This, combined with the rebate for people taking the existing tolled entrances will be a first step in equity.
- jwagenet 3y agoBased on how much people complain about surge pricing on the Bay Area 101 toll lanes it counts for something.