14 ms·

Let the experiment take place, I say. Just like Oregon’s now-repealed drug use decriminalization bill. It didn’t achieve its intended goals, but there is now a

• rhelz 3y ago
  > IMO there is real value in letting states ... test the hypotheses. "Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will have no other" -- Benjamin Franklin
  • b112 3y ago
    Experience keeps a dear school, yet Fools will learn in no other. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/05/25/dear-school/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/05/25/dear-school/
    • petesergeant 3y ago
      > The adjective “dear” means high-priced, costly, or expensive in the context below To save someone else a click
• Solvency 3y ago
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  • deleted 3y ago
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  • serial_dev 3y ago
    Are you sure that's correct? This seems to indicate that you aren't? https://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immunization/children-and-adolescents/school-immunization-requirements/index.html https://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immuniza...
    • ethbr1 3y ago
      Are 10%+ religious exemptions normal? I'm not sure what the average rate in other states is. https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/florida-vaccine-exemptions-easy-to-get/67-b7ad24a4-5057-4447-adb1-7fe756a036c4 https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/florida-vaccine-exemptions...
    • Brybry 3y ago
      You can get a religious exemption[1] and Florida was in the news recently about a measles outbreak where their Surgeon General advised parents of unvaccinated kids to make their own choice on sending their kids to school or not. [2] You can also google Florida student MMR vaccination rates and most results are closer to 90% than 100%, so clearly people are taking advantage of exemptions. [1] http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=1003.22&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.22.html http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20St... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/d561ec38-808a-471f-bf7a-dbe67a224434.pdf?itid=lk_inline_manual_4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/d561ec38-808a-471f-...
      • serial_dev 3y ago
        Religious exemption does not seem to be unique to Florida, quite the opposite, basically all states grant them. > There are 45 states and Washington D.C. that grant religious exemptions for people who have religious objections to immunizations. https://www.ncsl.org/health/states-with-religious-and-philosophical-exemptions-from-school-immunization-requirements https://www.ncsl.org/health/states-with-religious-and-philos...
        • zarathustreal 3y ago
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          • Brybry 3y ago
            I don't think traditional American understandings on freedom were for state identity document requirements. That's why we have no federal IDs and social security numbers are abused and why we use driver's licenses for identification cards. When detained, you have a right not to give police papers proving who you are, you just have to tell them your name. [1] So Florida pushing the concept of using state id to verify age to access a website, which is probably what this law requires, is kind of against that tradition. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_Distr... [2] https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2024/3/BillText/er/PDF https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2024/3/BillText/er/PDF
  • Meekro 3y ago
    Florida public schools require students to get all of the most important vaccines including MMR, Tdap, Chickenpox, and others. https://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immunization/children-and-adolescents/school-immunization-requirements/index.html https://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immuniza...
• antegamisou 3y ago
  Policy-making isn't supposed be, at least shouldn't be, some lab experiment. The hey at least we tried isn't the best reasoning for the lack of insight of those in charge.
  • gnicholas 3y ago
    Justice Brandeis, who coined the term "laboratories of democracy", felt otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratories_of_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratories_of_democracy
    • antegamisou 3y ago
      Ah yes, I almost forgot we're talking about the US where it was OK for the state to secretly conduct mind control human experimentation for over 20 years.
      • handoflixue 3y ago
        Could you explain a bit more about how Brandeis' philosophy relates to that case? Was he actively arguing for this sort of experiment, or are you just trying to imply that "experimentation"/science means you lack any morals?
      • sib 3y ago
        Apparently it wasn't "ok" if it had to be done secretly...
        • autoexec 3y ago
          It's not as if the US government can't do something secretly then declare that it was perfectly legal after they get caught. Just because they don't want to have to go through to trouble of justifying their actions to the public that doesn't mean they must consider their actions inappropriate
          • 3y ago
• jliptzin 3y ago
  You’re assuming the politicians enacting this law care about such data much less learn anything from it.
  • EnigmaFlare 3y ago
    No he's not because the experiment doesn't depend on them. Social science researchers use these kinds of sudden differences in laws all the time to study their effects. People in general can look at the outcomes too if they're obvious enough.
    • autoexec 3y ago
      I don't think it's very likely we'll get any actionable data out of this. It doesn't actually stop children from accessing social media, or even creating accounts on social media sites. Tracking social media usage by children will depend entirely on self-reported data and there are an endless amount of confounding variables that would make a direct comparison of children's mental health difficult/impossible to attribute to this one change.
      • tekknik 3y ago
        Digital IDs are becoming more and more a thing. Soon it will be quite easy to validate that someone is over 16 or require a parent to provide their ID and vouch instead. This is an old way of thinking and with some recent developments more of the wild west internet will die.
• ElijahLynn 3y ago
  reference: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2024/03/01/oregon-drug-decriminalization-fentanyl/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2024/03/01/oregon-drug...
• WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > Let the experiment take place, I say It is an unconstitutional law; it is following the path of similar unconstitutional laws¹²³. Where is the experiment? ¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Entertainment_Merchants_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Entertainment_Merchan... ²https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno_v._American_Civil_Liberties_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno_v._American_Civil_Liberti... (sections about minor access to indecent material struck down) ³https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/ohio/ohsdce/2:2024cv00047/287455/33/ https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/ohio/oh...
  • LVB 3y ago
    These rulings are 13 and 27 years old (the third is in progress), so I'd argue that revisiting the legal analysis of the laws and precedents is useful here in itself.
    • Paul-Craft 3y ago
      What's changed in 27 years to make you say this? Certainly not the Constitution. The last amendment was passed over 30 years ago.
      • koolba 3y ago
        27 years ago we didn’t have children spending 90% of their waking hours staring at network connected devices. Only the nerds did that and it was in a computer lab. And they knew enough about keeping up appearances to hit Alt-Tab when an adult was getting close.
        • Paul-Craft 3y ago
          How is that legally relevant?
          • koolba 3y ago
            As society changes, it’s reasonable for a court to re-examine the effects of previously decided legislation to gauge whether the impact and societal cost can be justified. It’s not like we don’t have other laws that restrict what we can do or where we can do it.
• maximinus_thrax 3y ago
  > Let the experiment take place, I say. I think the experiment is more about the judiciary and about tribal politics. There's ample case law against something like this, so to me this seems unconstitutional, and I doubt it will stand. But DeSantis will win some more heart and minds of the folks who secretly do want big government protecting them from the boogieman. Regardless of anyone's views about social media, the fact that the government wants 'papers please' for you to access a website should really scare everyone.
  • deleted 3y ago
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  • d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
    Laws are often just social signals in writing. A law indicates that a large group agrees that something is bad. Often times people find it easier to just agree with a law rather than navigate the mental gray area around behaviors that aren't black and white.
    • maximinus_thrax 3y ago
      Is that the case here? What is that large group and what is it comprised of? Does it represent all Floridians?
      • d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
        Of course it doesn't represent all mindsets. That's what elections are for. All Floridians participate in the vote to elect a desired philosophy into power and then the winning party hopes that philosophy will reflect in the laws and policies created in the near future. You elect a like minded leader to act on your interests so you don't have to micro manage the governance of a state. The alternative could be to have every piece of legislation go to popular vote rather than elected officials. I feel this could be wrought with problems though as the public could get vote fatigue and weird laws would slip through simply through low turnout or "social media fueled" outliers for extreme turnout on specific bills.
• jorvi 3y ago
  The problem is that once such a thing fails, it gives massive ammunition to future naysayers that get to conveniently ignore all the implementation failures because campaigning for/against will ultimately boil down to bullet points.
  • queuebert 3y ago
    So it's better to not have any data and live in continued ignorance?
    • jorvi 3y ago
      No, but saying “ah, what does it matter if we try things haphazardly? If we fail we just try the thing again in a couple of years” is equally naive.
    • vundercind 3y ago
      It’s better to have no data than one high-profile poorly-executed experiment.
      • starspangled 3y ago
        I disagree. Lots of things are executed poorly and the learning from those result in subsequent improvements.
      • gretch 3y ago
        Everything in our society at scale is going to be “poorly executed”. If your idea only succeeds when the smartest people are running it, and they can’t make any mistakes, then it’s not actually a good idea.
        • dylan604 3y ago
          How many times have any of us created a PoC that gets deployed into production? Things fall down, and are attempted to be improved like changing a tire on car driving 60mph down the highway without pulling over. Do you stop the car, take a look at everything, make changes, and then put the car back on the road? Do you pull into pit row, change the tires in <10s with top off of the tank, and then get back in the race? Do you take advantage of the run flat tires you chose in advance anticipating the this would be the likely outcome while hoping the other 3 tires stay inflated? If the current situation isn't work, the worst thing to do is nothing. Paralysis by analysis can be deadly
• Beldin 3y ago
  That assumes (at the very least) that any data gathered from such an "experiment" would be representative of what the effects of such legislation would be elsewhere. Perhaps... but my guess is that repeatability wouldn't depend on the children but on the wants and needs of the governing politicians. That is, the data would, in my view, likely be worthless for its purported goal, but can give some insight into some political shenanigans.
  • maroonblazer 3y ago
    I don't follow your logic. The legislation is designed to minimize the negative effects of social media on teens. This can be measured and compared to states other than Florida. How do 'the needs of the governing politicians' confound that data?
    • gumby 3y ago
      It can be measured?
      • maroonblazer 3y ago
        Yes, it can.
      • JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > It can be measured? If it can’t, that’s a strong signal.
• brightball 3y ago
  Completely agree. Let states experiment and learn from each other.
• EasyMark 3y ago
  Hopefully the courts cut this down in the cradle. It's clearly an attack on 1st amendment rights and state laws can't supersede the 1st amendment. Whether your kid is online on social media or not is the responsibility of parents. Conservatives rail against the "nanny state" and then pull this junk? I'm glad it will most likely be shot down in court quickly and decisively. Laws like this are toes in the water to see how much freedom repressive state governments can get away with.
  • davidguetta 3y ago
    "Whether your kid is online on social media or not is the responsibility of parents" Really ? I mean the entire point of the nanny state argument is to not act as a nanny toward ADULT citizen. Minor should still be protected, especially under 16
    • EasyMark 3y ago
      If you can't keep your 14 year old off social media then your 14 year old is out of control, I had no such problem with my children. Their devices were locked down and they knew repercussions and grounding would be in order if they didn't listen. Once they hit 16 I didn't mind as much, and they had some SM freedom. They're both well adjusted adults now and in college, and I'm very proud of them. We're still close as ever, nothing bad happened as a result of them having guard rails as tweens and teens.
      • davidguetta 3y ago
        Are you disagreeing with me ? I think you're 100% right
  • duped 3y ago
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• moomoo11 3y ago
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  • jimkleiber 3y ago
    I don't do hard drugs and I still think decriminalizing drugs might be helpful, because I think people often do drugs because they're feeling pain and shame, and I don't think punishing them for doing drugs alleviates the pain and shame. Now, if you want to criminalize drugs but focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment, I'd probably be more aligned with it.
  • MeImCounting 3y ago
    Thats just really not true. Many of the most vocal advocates for decriminalization of drugs are people who have managed to get clean. There are also many people who have lost loved ones who have seen the statistics from more successful programs like Portugal's and want to save other people from the fate that befell their loved ones.
• iteygib 3y ago
  It depends on what the change is. I wouldn't approve states trialing slavery. I don't agree with the social media law as well. It's a cultural tool, so let parents dictate what they want their kids to see or use. If anything, they could push laws to give parents better tools/information to help them manager their kid's screen time, not just an outright ban.
  • ametrau 3y ago
    > It's a cultural tool, so let parents dictate what they want their kids to see or us. Monumentally naïve. Zero understanding of the way things work in reality.
    • iteygib 3y ago
      What is naive about the point? And what is your argument? You don't make one to read. To me, this is the same thing we all lived through in the 90s in America when particular political parties were blaming video games for violence: https://ncac.org/resource/a-timeline-of-video-game-controversies https://ncac.org/resource/a-timeline-of-video-game-controver...