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When did dogs become our best friends?
- INTPenis 3y agoOn this topic I saw this great documentary called "Man's first friend" from 2008.[1]. Also speaking of northern Italy, as a dog owner, I am fully behind this[2] proposal to DNA test dogs and punish anyone leaving dog poop on the streets. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=talBvZ5x8sY&t=4882s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=talBvZ5x8sY&t=4882s 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/17/italian-province-orders-all-dogs-to-be-dna-tested-in-poo-crackdown https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/17/italian-provin...
- xandrius 3y agoIn a low-trust country such as Italy, I'd say that it would be useful. Also it would depend on the specific commune and not a country-wide requirement.
- ethanbond 3y agoAlso necessary in NYC which I don’t really feel is low-trust in general.
- lotsofpulp 3y agoAlso necessary in pretty much all USA metros and suburbs I have been to in the last 10 years.
- xandrius 3y agoNYC and US are definitely low-trust. Interesting comparison: https://jacknicastro.substack.com/p/vienna-and-new-york-high-and-low https://jacknicastro.substack.com/p/vienna-and-new-york-high...
- ambrose2 3y agoDefinitely a high trust city (Vienna), but note that a few times a year they do check for tickets. Because the monthly pass rate is so low, most people have purchased the pass on their phone and that must be shown a couple of times a year or else you’ll be charged a fine at the checkpoint. I’m actually surprised that the evasion stats are so low, since the fine isn’t terribly large and you might come out ahead just never paying the fare and only paying fines. I have to say though, that system of spot checks makes the day to day very low friction.
- CalRobert 3y agoThe first time I visited Vienna I noted the complete lack of fare control and thought "wow, it's great they've made public transport free!" My hostel was kind enough to disabuse me of this notion, though.
- ethanbond 3y agoI don't think a single parameter like that makes it "definitely" low-trust. In Austria, people are required to deposit money to borrow a grocery cart while shopping for food. Not so anywhere I've been in the US -- ergo Austria is low-trust and US is high-trust? I think not. https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-coins-ones-might-useful-have-4.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-coin...
- lupusreal 3y agoThe US has those, Aldi uses them. But isn't this because they don't have cart boys to bring the carts from corals throughout the parking lot back to the front of the store? It's just a different model of cart management, not indicative of trust or lack thereof. If somebody wanted to steal a cart, that quarter is a trivial price for it. It's not an anti-theft measure, just a little thing to encourage honest people to walk slightly further than normal. Here's a rule of thumb I use to judge if a community is high trust or not. If I leave my bicycle unlocked and it gets stolen, will others be surprised or will they call me a moron for trusting other people? Obviously NYC is low trust, I would be mocked mercilessly if my unlocked bike got stolen there.
- nradov 3y agoHardly anyone in NYC would comply with such a law. They would just ignore it. The city could perhaps require DNA testing by animal shelters and legitimate breeders within it's borders. But many dogs come from elsewhere, or from backyard breeders who don't care about laws.
- llamaimperative 3y agoDogs in NYC are already required to wear tags with their rabies vaccination statuses and IDs. That also isn't really checked, but it absolutely could be by simply stopping people walking their dogs and requesting to see their ID tag.
- samatman 3y agoDon't shoot the messenger, but this is one of a number of quality-of-life improvements which is a non-starter because of the doctrine of disparate racial impact. The argument would be that poverty, undocumented status, etc, means it's harder for some ethnicities to comply with that sort of regulation, so the burden of police interaction would disproportionately fall on them. Probably not wrong in this case, getting a dog registered with all his shots is fairly expensive. My take is that a law worth having is a law worth enforcing, but unless that idea comes back into fashion, things like your suggestion won't happen.
- ethanbond 3y agoYet obviously there are many laws that are enforced and do have disparate racial impacts... So this is just an airing of grievances.
- samatman 3y agoThose laws aren't dog ownership requirements in New York City, though. Which is the topic I was replying to. It wasn't a statement about all laws everywhere.
- bryanrasmussen 3y agoDenmark is generally considered a high trust country, but it happens often enough I would like to see it.
- smugglerFlynn 3y agoIsn’t solving trust issues with further mistrust leads to an even lower trust in the end? (genuinely interested because “low-trust/high-trust communities” concept is a topic I know nothing about.)
- HarryHirsch 3y agoWhen you are eating a shit sandwich already because that's all there is it doesn't matter if there's dogshit or horseshit on it.
- xandrius 3y agoGood point. I really don't think a country can switch side (high to low and viceversa) within a short timespan, maybe not even within a generation. So, if you want to solve the issue, you use the methods which work in the affected area. In high trust, as long as the thing is seeing benefitting most, it is often followed. In low trust, breaking a rule is often seen as a sign of independence and generally being cool, so you need to put deterrents to make it uncool to get caught. At least, this is coming from my own personal experience living in different countries. Might not be the same everywhere.
- gadders 3y agoThe UK has gone from high to low in a generation. People no longer (for instance) leave their children (or even their dogs) outside shops whilst they go inside.
- xandrius 3y agoSo you're saying that in the 70/80s people trusted each other much more? I'm not sure specifically about kids and dogs but I'm not quite sure that was the case then, given the extremely huge heterogeneous society that was already back then. What do you think?
- gadders 3y agoIt's a complete mystery.
- gadders 3y agoDNA testing would presumably help cut down on dog theft, which was a big issue in the UK when puppy prices increased due to lockdown.
- sph 3y agoI also enjoyed the probably not very historically accurate movie Alpha, about a prehistoric young man domesticating a wolf: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4244998/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4244998/
- hasty_pudding 3y agoThe founding fathers would think that allowing the government to have a database on ANYTHING is a bad idea. Plus dog poop is ecologically good for the environment and fertilizes nature.
- ChoGGi 3y agoConcrete and asphalt don't need fertilizer.
- hasty_pudding 3y agoMost dogs are extremely particular about where they poop and don't poop on concrete and asphalt if they have any other choice.
- ChoGGi 3y agoI guess we walk through different alleyways.
- nervousvarun 3y agoApparently, dog poop is not an effective fertilizer and is considered harmful for grass? Was news to me as a dog owner who allows our dog to do her business in the back yard (but would never allow it on a public walkway/area). https://lawnlove.com/blog/is-dog-poop-bad-for-grass/ https://lawnlove.com/blog/is-dog-poop-bad-for-grass/
- schwartzworld 3y agoThat blows my mind. I had two dogs as a kid, and if we didn't pick up the poop fast it destroyed the grass underneath. Their corner of the yard was all dead grass.
- hasty_pudding 3y agoMy dog has pooped in my backyard for years and nothing but thick quality grass everywhere. probably because most kibble is vegetable based and vegetable based poop is good for the grass. maybe you fed your dog more meat? if your dog's poop is killing the grass you're doing something seriously wrong with its diet.
- consf 3y ago[dead]
- lordnacho 3y ago[flagged]
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago> The naked ape thinks it domesticated me. The naked ape removed your testicles (or ovaries) to make life easier for them. That kind of makes questions about who has the power in the relationship pointless.
- lordnacho 3y agoI got 8 kids, and monkey guy and his wife delivered them and found them all good homes to live in. I see pictures of them regularly and I might be a grandmother next year.
- bee_rider 3y agoI’d expect that this isn’t a typical story, do most dogs reproduce? I think if that were the case we’d quickly end up with too many dogs, their litters are so big. Still seems like a pretty good deal for the species as a whole, though. Sort of like ants or bees, most of the members of the species end up as non-reproducing workers (except the work is to go be a friend to humans). Of course the ratio is not as extreme!
- sph 3y agoYour funny comment actually has some deep insight I'd like to see researched more. We know by now how we turned the grey wolf into the dog, but do we know what the relationship has done for us? What have wolves taught humans? Some hypotheses to get you started: they might've taught us the power of collaboration. The power of social hierarchy. The empathy towards other life forms. Anthropomorphism (maybe that's why we have furries today). I don't know, but I very much doubt the domestication of wolves has been a one way endeavour.
- Jensson 3y agoSub Saharan Africa didn't domesticate dogs but they still had tribes and pack hunting.
- vouaobrasil 3y agoFirst, I know a lot of people are very nice to their dogs, but... I live in a large city, and based on the number of dogs locked away in apartments all day barking and bored to death with almost no stimulation, I figure dogs are certainly not the best friends of a lot of people. Instead, they are more like prisoners that illustrate the cruelness of humanity in general: these people use them as entertainment and care fairly little for their overall welfare.
- mynameisvlad 3y agoThat’s an extremely harsh take considering those same owners likely do care a lot about their dogs and shower them with love and affection outside those 8 hours. You’re focusing on a single part of the experience in order to paint the whole thing in a negative light. To put it another way, would they be better off being strays? I doubt it.
- vouaobrasil 3y agoExtremely harsh? Many of these dogs are very smart. What about locking a human away for 8 hours with no internet, no books, no entertainment, nothing to do? And it might be affection they give their dogs but it's not really love if they are so cruel. Besides, they wouldn't be strays if they were never bought, at least not a lot of them if the demand were lower, then so would the breeding and supply.
- lallysingh 3y agoI called that K-12.
- triceratops 3y agoYou didn't have books in school?
- hackable_sand 3y ago
- walthamstow 3y agoFor a lot of dog owners, their dog is less a friend and more an Instagram cast member
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- lenerdenator 3y agoLikely twice as old as written language. https://www.livescience.com/stone-age-dog-burial.html https://www.livescience.com/stone-age-dog-burial.html Abuse of a dog or cat is a crime against civilization itself.
- 8338550bff96 3y agoI've made this argument many times and it always raises eyebrows and induces shrugs. We as a species co-evolved with some animals and not others. Our partnership with extends deep into the mists of pre-history. We and they have co-evolved to an extent to be better companions. Eating a dog is a profound betrayal unlike that of eating a horse. Come at me
- bigbillheck 3y agoWe've got a pretty long-standing partnership with horses too.
- lainga 3y agoIndeed, but the switch from long-standing to long-riding is a relatively recent innovation, by the Romans, Arabs et al. (by breeding horses large enough to ride on), after the Sea Peoples demonstrated how to defeat charioteers
- callalex 3y agoThis is like arguing about if it’s better to regularly beat your sibling or your cousin. Just don’t beat anybody!
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- lukan 3y agoCompagnions and friends? Maybe when we were nomads and the dogs roamed around freely around the tribe. But most dogs today are locked in, most of the time and when they get outside, they are on a leash. Totally dependant on their human masters. I don't think I would describe that relationship as a partnership. Then there is the concept of breeding them, to establish certain "cute" traits, but cause great pain and misery to the animal: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualzucht https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualzucht (german) I would argue, the native american tribes, who also did eat their dogs, treated them better overall, than humanity does today on average. So many dogs bred for running around, are lucky today, if they get to walk around outside for more than 20 minutes. This I would call betrayal.
- prmoustache 3y agoAs a cyclist, I can't say dogs are my best friends. OTOH I have had great bonds with some cats.
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- Unfrozen0688 3y agoYou have stray dogs where you live or what? Cant say cycling has affected my views on dogs.
- prmoustache 3y agoLots of stray dogs around here in south of Spain. Also when I used to be a 12y old cycling in rural france that was pretty much the same, I was always prepared for a sprint whenever I would reach a farm. In a sense it probably made me stronger but I can't say I build a friendship and a mutual sense of confidence with dogs.
- navigate8310 3y agoI wonder what makes them hunt cyclists and some cars that pass by.
- Jensson 3y agoInstincts? Wolves hunt animals much larger than themselves for a living, they run after, nibble their ankles and wait for them to make a mistake and then they go in.
- extr 3y agoMy dogs bark at people on bike/motorcycles/scooters. I think they code as a big animal to them. Once we get up close and it's clear that it's a person on a machine they stop barking.
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- prmoustache 3y agoMore than friendship, I think this is more a case of dependency. Sometimes it goes one way, sometimes both ways especially in the emotional part.
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- AndrewKemendo 3y ago>The current top contender for the first best friend is a puppy that lived, for a few months, more than 14,000 years ago in Central Europe. Which tracks with the neolithic transition when we started "domesticating" animals for all purposes
- feintruled 3y agoIt's a bit of a fringe theory but there's a suggestion that the human 'alliance' with wolves gave us the edge over Neanderthals and other predators and ensured that it was us who ultimately survived as a species. It's a nice thought for a dog lover.
- IncreasePosts 3y agoWhy wouldn't neanderthals form an alliance with wolves too? Especially considering Neanderthals had a multi-hundred-thousand year head start in wolf range compared to homo sapiens.
- b5 3y agoIt’s an interesting question. I don’t know if there’s any evidence of wolf domestication by Neanderthals. If they didn’t domesticate them, it would be interesting to try to work out why – maybe there’s a subtle difference in psychology between H. Sapiens and H. Neanderthalensis that enabled us to bridge that gap but not them?
- acchow 3y agoThere isn't a whole lot of evidence for how Neanderthals lived. We have only discovered remnants of 400 Neanderthals (about 30 mostly-complete skeletons).
- feintruled 3y agoAgain we are in the realms of speculation upon speculation, but Neanderthals didn't have sclera (whites of the eyes) which according to the co-operative eye hypothesis as regards to domesticated hunting dogs allows them to follow our gaze. It does seem odd that Neanderthals didn't try to domesticate them too - surely the first reaction on seeing humans and dogs bring down a mammoth or corral large deer would be 'got to get us some of that', but as sibling comments say we don't know much about them really.
- magicalhippo 3y agoReminded me of the experiment to domesticate silver foxes[1]. Apparently they got quite tame foxes in just 30 generations. Interestingly, while they were selected purely for lack of aggression towards humans they started to develop dog-like physical traits. Hasn't been replicated yet, and doubtfully will, but interesting. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
- sdwr 3y agoReally fascinating, I love the implication that domestication is tied to juvenile characteristics (getting along in a group means acting more like a kid than an adult protecting your territory / breeding rights). > "Are we domesticated in the sense of dogs? No. But I am comfortable saying that the first thing that has to happen to get a human from an apelike ancestor is a substantial increase in tolerance toward one another."
- Natsu 3y agoIt also seems to have something to do with adrenaline, making them less fearful. It's really interesting research.
- Zenzero 3y agoThat is backwards. The cortisol measurement approximates the level of stress and fear. It does not cause it.
- Dalewyn 3y agoI recall reading many years ago how humans are fundamentally juvenile even when we reach adulthood, given our propensity to socialize and more importantly play.
- dllthomas 3y agoRight, because we no longer have access to the tree-of-life virus.
- partiallypro 3y agoAncient Romans and Greeks would write things about their dogs and have custom grave stones made, one of my favorites reads: "My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore thee (to the grave)... So, Patricus, never again shall thou give me a thousand kisses. Never canst thou be contentedly in my lap. In sadness have I buried thee, and thou deservist. In a resting place of marble, I have put thee for all time by the side of my shade. In thy qualities, sagacious thou wert like a human being. Ah, me! What a loved companion have we lost!"
- westmeal 3y agoDamn he must've been the goodest boy of all time, rest in peace Patricus.
- willmadden 3y agoWell before the cataclysm 12k years ago.
- entropicgravity 3y agoHumans and dogs were two borderline species until dogs were domesticated. But together the two were so complementary, that they never looked back. The dogs had the speed, teeth, smell and baby sitting while humans had the weapons, rock throwing, intelligence and cooking. It was and is a killer combination that rose to the top of the animal world on earth so far.
- sema4hacker 3y agoBy baby sitting you mean dog hearing?
- entropicgravity 3y agoIt's tricky for women to raise children in the wild. Especially once kids get to the ages between 2.5 and 8 when they'll want to explore their ever changing environment but mom still has to look for plants and berries and keep an eye any dangers and carnivores that are around. Dogs protect their own little ones in the wild and readily help to keep an eye on the human youngsters in the same way. Further more dogs will sound the alarm when needed. It's one more helping, important hand, that dogs bring to the bargain.
- wingworks 3y agoDogs are the worst... at least some dog owners who leave their dogs outside barking all morning. Not nice for the neighbors and not nice to the dog.
- proc0 3y agoDogs are little more than farm animals, in the sense that we're farming them for companionship. They might be our friends now that we have killed all the ones that would defy our commands. Look at any wild animal, do they want to be owned, do they want to be put on a leash? Of course not. Animals want to be free like any other living being, but just like cows, dogs would not survive on their own because we have artificially selected them. Imagine aliens capturing humans, breeding them in captivity until they are docile little creatures that cannot survive on their own. It's easy to feel sorry for farm animals because we eat them, but in a way people who love pets are not any better than the farmer, despite the culture thinking otherwise.
- fiedzia 3y ago> Look at any wild animal, do they want to be owned, do they want to be put on a leash? Numerous wild animals can be held as pets, without going through domestication, so apparently they do. If you feed them, they may have no reason to mind the leash, life is hard in the wild.
- proc0 3y agoI think we would need to make a distinction between holding a wild animal in captivity temporarily and owning one as a pet or as an exhibition at the zoo. When people help wild animals that is of course good for them, and it helps preserve wild life. Having them as pets on the other hand is a different matter, and I would be very skeptical even if the animal seems happy because ultimately it would not know or have awareness of what is really going on. That said, it's a complicated issue, so it's not like I'm saying no one should own pets.
- Intralexical 3y ago> Animals want to be free like any other living being, That's a nice thought, but in reality there are plenty of humans even that just get overwhelmed and scared at the thought of freedom, whether their own or other people's, and actively demand, seek, and create rigid and oppressive systems of rules and restrictions in order to trade freedom away for predictability. Otherwise… The entire human world would likely be shaped quite different from how it currently is. Our morals don't map cleanly onto physical reality, and values like "freedom" are unfortunately still relatively inconsequential next to causalities like "death", "killing", "starvation", and "culling". Does a tapeworm "want to be free" from its host? How about a male anglerfish, which only has a nervous system complex enough to find a larger female anglerfish which it can latch onto while its entire body is subsumed away? Animals want whatever animals are neurologically wired to want, humans included, and only sometimes does that align with our higher ideals of life having intrinsic worth. The nature of things simply is, and in a lot of cases, I think the ways we try to assign moral judgements to it are projecting our own social instincts onto ecological and cognitive systems that do not share our values. Certainly, the power dynamics, amount of control, and relative levels of awareness between humans and pets are… Would be rightfully horrifying, though, if the alternative were a relationship of equal peers.
- parski 3y agoDogs are genetically defective slave wolves and it's weird that owning one is normal.
- euroderf 3y agoDogs are working animals. A working dog is a happy dog.