7 ms·
Genetically engineering koji mold to create a meat alternative
- dheera 3y agoMonkey head mushrooms work really well as a texture replacement for chicken, and cooked unripe jackfruits work really well as a texture replacement for pulled pork. I'm vegetarian and make use of both. Unfortunately they both sorely lack in protein content, so for a meal to be balanced, the protein needs to be made up through other parts of a dish. I'm slightly skeptical about how much protein the fungi in TFA produce.
- QuiDortDine 3y agoProtein considerations are largely a myth. You'll get your proteins unless you go out of your way to avoid them, you don't need them in every meal unless you're a bodybuilder or something.
- Yodel0914 3y agoOr unless you care about maintaining muscle mass, which should be either #1 or #2 on your list if you care about lifespan and healthspan (the other one being cardiovascular fitness).
- QuiDortDine 3y agoBasically the problem with focusing on protein is people will tend to eat more meat, which has terrible cardiovascular consequences, rather than what they should be doing which is varying their nutrition, not analyzing a single food for its protein content. Don't eat just the one food, people.
- drekk 3y agoDo people just not know about vegan/vegetarian body builders? Forget about humans. Do you think a horse has problems maintaining muscle mass? We're opportunistic scavengers. We run on nearly anything.
- Yodel0914 3y agoDo you think vegan/vegetarian bodybuilders don't care about protein intake?
- gerad 3y agoI never understood this. Cows make protein from eating grass. I assume that we can do much of the same.
- RodgerTheGreat 3y agoDifferent organisms have different metabolic pathways. Humans are unable to synthesize 9 of the 21 most common amino acids, and must acquire them from food. To learn more, look up "Essential Amino Acid".
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Turing_Machine 3y agoCows do it by having a complicated multiple-chambered stomach full of specialized bacteria that can digest cellulose -- basically a natural chemical engineering facility. Humans don't have that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- JimDabell 3y agoWhy would you assume our bodies work like cow bodies? We are very different animals.
- layer8 3y agoMaybe we should genetically engineer humans to be more like cows, instead of genetically engineering mold to be more like meat. ;)
- lemming 3y agoProtein needs are not a myth, and are backed by some of the most extensive research in the nutrition field. See for example examine.com: https://examine.com/guides/protein-intake https://examine.com/guides/protein-intake. The recommended amounts are far higher than most people get. As mentioned down-thread, gaining and maintaining muscle mass is not just for bodybuilders, it's incredibly important as we age to maintain quality of life. Sarcopenia as a result of disuse is one of the plagues of our modern times, and contributes to huge quality of life declines as we age.
- QuiDortDine 3y agoYou'll get your proteins without even trying, as long as you're eating a somewhat normal diet. Look at the table in your own link titled "Combining incomplete proteins". Just don't eat only the one thing all the time and you'll be fine.
- lemming 3y agoI’m fairly active, and currently losing some weight, both of which raise my requirements, but it’s not like some sort of niche use case. I track what I eat using an app with a reliable macronutrient database, so the incidental protein is all accounted for. I can assure you that getting anywhere near the recommended amount doesn’t happen by accident, unless I massively blow my calorie budget.
- drekk 3y ago"Cutting" isn't a normal diet. Weight lifters do track their macros more closely to make sure they're getting enough protein on a caloric deficit. It's very easy to starve yourself "the wrong way" while doing it. It's absolutely niche. Of 300 million Americans, during an obesity epidemic, how many do you think are cycling bulking and cutting? It's ridiculously easy to get your recommended daily averages even as a vegetarian without thinking about it. Rice and beans? Complete amino acid profile. Same with bread and butter. But let's get into statistics and leave the anecdata behind us! Most Americans are consuming double their recommended protein intake, but half the fiber: https://www.deseret.com/2024/1/30/24055585/americans-eating-too-much-protein-not-getting-enough-fiber-diet/ https://www.deseret.com/2024/1/30/24055585/americans-eating-...
- rsynnott 3y agoThis isn’t mushrooms; this stuff can be quite high in protein. Some discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoprotein#Sensory,_Nutrition_&_Health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoprotein#Sensory,_Nutrition...
- swatcoder 3y ago"Balanced" meals are not necessary and probably not optimal anyway. Balanced diets are important, but your digestion and satiety are almost certainly better served by varying what they're tasked with for individual meal.
- account-5 3y agoJust in general interest, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, why would you want, as a vegetarian, food that is like meat? Or even tastes like meat?
- cwillu 3y agoThere are many reasons one might choose to be vegetarian beyond disliking the flavour and/or texture of meat.
- camel-cdr 3y agoBecause you like the taste, but don't want to exploit animals. It's also a good way to start of with veganism, because you don't need to instantly replace all of your old recepies.
- IanCal 3y agoVarious dishes are designed with a meat component, where the texture or flavour works well. Pulled pork for example would have the same flavour blended into a soup but wouldn't work as well for burritos that way.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rsynnott 3y ago- You like meat, but don’t want to eat it for ethical reasons. - You like meat, but don’t want to eat it for religious reasons. - You like meat, but don’t want to eat it for environmental/sustainability reasons (this is arguably a subset of the ‘ethical reasons’ one) - You like meat, but it is too expensive (expect this one to get more common as water shortages and emissions reduction initiatives bite; it takes a _hell_ of a lot of water to produce a kilo of beef…) - You like meat, but it is too high-risk (we keep having these run-ins with zoonotic diseases, you will note; what if cows are an ideal carrier for the next COVID? If we were in the habit of eating mustelids we’d probably already be having that conversation.) I mean, there are _lots_ of potential reasons.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- athrun 3y agoCooked unripe jackfruit is a very popular ingredient where I come from, but we typically combine it with smoked pork or chicken. It's very very yummy. I wouldn't say the texture resembles pulled pork though. Maybe visually if you squint a little. The main challenge with unripe jackfruit is that it's difficult to cut and prepare without making a mess. There's a sort of extremely sticky glue that comes out of it. It will ruin your kitchen if you're unprepared. It's best to buy it at the market where it has been freshly cut and sliced for you.
- dheera 3y agoOh where is that? I very much enjoyed Nasi Gudeg in Yogyakarta, Indonesia where it is also treated as a traditional ingredient rather than a meat replacement.
- athrun 3y agoReunion island. The food there is a very interesting mix of French, Chinese, Malaysian, Vietnamese, Indian and Malagasy cuisine. Pretty unique. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réunion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réunion
- an_aparallel 3y agoooh you've piqued my interest - i doubt it exists - but is there a book/resource which talks about - has recipes for this culture's cuisine?
- chasil 3y agoFirstly, I have read in the past that mushrooms must be boiled before eating to remove toxins. Is this true for the subject of the article, aspergillus oryzae? Secondly, I have heard that mushrooms are relatively poor for nutritional content, excepting B vitamins. Will there be an enormous amount of nutrition to add to make this viable? Proof for first point: "Even the cultivated A. bisporus contains small amounts of hydrazines, the most abundant of which is agaritine (a mycotoxin and carcinogen). However, the hydrazines are destroyed by moderate heat when cooking." Proof for second point: "Riboflavin (B2) 42% 0.5 mg, Pantothenic acid (B5) 30% 1.5 mg" - all other parameters on the wiki under 20%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom
- dekhn 3y agoThis is a fungus, not really a mushroom. It does not need to be boiled to remove toxins. It's widely used in multiple cuisines. Grocery store mushrooms don't need to be boiled. If you're dealing with mushrooms and don't know whether they should be boiled, play it safe and don't eat them or serve them.
- chasil 3y agoIs there a wiki with nutritional content, similar to the mushroom wiki that I posted? The sidebar there has daily percentages, and the only entries above 20% are B vitamins. Do you have a similar RDA analysis for this fungus? This appears to be the wiki for the subject of the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspergillus_oryzae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspergillus_oryzae
- jart 3y agoFungi contain a large amount of nucleic acid (8–25%), most of which is ribonucleic acid (RNA). In order to reduce the damage on human health, fungal proteins must be processed in a certain way to reduce the content of RNA (to less than 2%), and decrease the risk of gout. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10742821/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10742821/
- rsynnott 3y ago
- DonHopkins 3y agoWhen you're tasting yoghurt, it's tasting you back.
- m3kw9 3y agoI’m used to eating mushrooms so this could work better than bugs and beyond meat soy sht
- coffeebeqn 3y agoThere is a mushroom protein called quorn at least in Europe
- mrtranscendence 3y agoQuorn exists in the states as well. I eat it routinely, it's not bad.
- gbear605 3y agoQuorn’s also widely available in the US
- camel-cdr 3y agoWhats wrong with soy?
- yungporko 3y agothere's nothing wrong with soy itself but growing it at the scale we do is bad for the environment. most soy grown globally is used to feed livestock though so if we would just stop that and grow it for ourselves, it wouldn't be so much of an issue.
- rsynnott 3y agoThere's really nothing _inherent_ to soy that makes it bad for the environment; in fact as a nitrogen fixing plant it's, all else being equal, on the environmentally friendly side (you don't need as much fertiliser). However, for practical purposes, a lot of soy production is environmentally unfriendly, due to deforestation largely in Brazil. Soy produced in the US and China (the major non-former-forest-oriented producers) is pretty environmentally friendly, certainly moreso than any animal protein production. However, as you say, it mostly goes to livestock feed anyway.
- dewbrite 3y agoGene editing fungi to create quasi-meats. I could see this being an economical(?) food of the future if they manage to get long tight fibers and lipids going.
- account-5 3y agoOr the start of the last of us...
- decafninja 3y agoHow does something like this apply in the context where processed foods are being shown to be very bad for your health?
- skgough 3y agoI hope this is where sustainable agriculture focuses it's attention in the future. Genetically modifying more energy-efficient organisms to be nutritionally useful to humans, while having free reign to make them taste however we want, seems like the way to go to me, instead of trying to grow beef in a lab. Lab-grown meat solves the ethical issues, but I imagine for a while it will be prohibitively expensive for the people who need nutritious food the most, while also being very energy-intensive to produce.
- bqmjjx0kac 3y agoRealistically I feel like this would first be adopted into snack food, where people don't really care what it's made of. It just needs good branding.
- MostlyStable 3y agoI've been relatively convinced that, in the absence of some very major tech breakthroughs that are not even yet on the horizon, lab grown meat will not make sense except in extremely niche applications, perhaps even to the extent of it only being a thing where rich people buy lab grown versions of endangered/extinct animals. Modified plant proteins like Beyond Meat and/or the kinds of organisms you describe seem to be a much closer, easier, and more likely near-to-medium term solutions. And I say that as someone who would love nothing more than for lab grown meat to succeed and someone who has made a variety of sacrifices and to both eat less meat and when I do eat more sustainable and ethical meat (to the satisfaction of my own personal morals).
- CaptWillard 3y ago> rich people buy lab grown versions of endangered/extinct animals This is the first use case I've seen that makes sense.
- fl0under 3y agoVow is a lab grown meat company taking this path. Last year they made a mammoth meatball that used mammoth dna with some elephant dna. I think this is a smart approach, allows them to charge higher prices for a unique experience. [1] Other types of meat that make sense are high end sushi fish etc. where again the conventional price they compete against is high enough that it makes it economically possible to grow it in a lab. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/28/meatball-mammoth-created-cultivated-meat-firm https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/28/meatball...
- lr4444lr 3y agoThe texture and flavor might be there, but what's the amino acid profile of this stuff? I notice very distinct effects on satiety perception and physical outcomes across eating seafood, poultry, or ruminant meat.
- rsynnott 3y agoData on quorn, which is this thing’s spiritual ancestor (the fungus used in quorn isn’t genetically modified, and the product has been around as an experimental product since the 60s and a commercial one since the 80s): https://www.quornnutrition.com/essential-amino-acids https://www.quornnutrition.com/essential-amino-acids (Note that this is data from the manufacturer.)
- an_aparallel 3y agoi used to eat quorn until i read something about it which purported it was dogshit for health. Stuff like this is very cool scientifically - but - cherrypicking stuff and ramming it into a fungus "because meat" doesnt fill me with confidence that this is healthy to eat at all. What it does scream is - selling plant based foods because they will sell to meat eaters. Actual health outcomes be damned. Is this stuff going to be tested for a decade before its deemed safe to eat?
- rsynnott 3y ago> i used to eat quorn until i read something about it which purported it was dogshit for health. I mean, you can find negative health claims, albeit often of dubious value, for _literally anything_, so, absent more context, I wouldn't take that at all seriously. > Stuff like this is very cool scientifically - but - cherrypicking stuff and ramming it into a fungus "because meat" doesnt fill me with confidence that this is healthy to eat at all. That isn't what quorn was; it's not genetically modified (given that it's from the _early 60s_, it'd be a very good trick if it was).
- balfirevic 3y ago> until i read something about it which purported it was dogshit for health Well, that surely settles it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- plaidfuji 3y agoIt's good to see this research getting publicity. The comments about economics here are spot on. Fungi are, as far as I’ve seen, the most efficient organisms at converting carbon and nitrogen into protein. And they’re able to handle a wide variety of carbon sources.. in fact this is part of why they produce so much protein - they need to secrete enzymes (proteins) to break down basically all forms of organic matter.. polysaccharides, fats, proteins.. this is literally their job in the world. Filamentous fungi (featured here) are even more interesting. The filaments are called hyphae, and you can think of them as microtubules for nutrient scavenging. Some filamentous fungi can grow hyphae and penetrate them into the exoskeletons of insects. Hyphae are almost pure fiber and protein, in about a 50/50 ratio. One of the most complete nutritional sources in a single organism. Combined with the fact you can grow them at scale in industrial fermentation processes, they have the potential to be the most economical source of protein in the world.
- jl6 3y agoHow do we kill hyphae so that they don’t continue doing that penetrating thing after we eat them?
- Loic 3y agoCooking.
- Terr_ 3y agoAlso humans already consume many varieties of fungi without needing to cook them. [0] The human digestive-process and immune-system are actually pretty dang successful at erasing would-be colonizers. (We mainly notice the failures.) Even the dangerous fungi are typically that way because of posthumous revenge-poison stocked up in their tissues, which is not a feature anybody should be permitting in their production process anyway. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_mushroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_mushroom
- xenonite 3y ago> most complete nutritional sources Fat is missing though, and there is no essential need for fiber. And what about vitamines? Water-soluble and fat-soluble vitamines? The latter of which are probably totally missing. All of those are found in good meat, however.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway22032 3y agoI don't buy the efficiency argument that is so often espoused by proponents of things like this. It feels very much like saying that a car would be more efficient if it had no wheels or if it ran on rails. It's true but also misses the point entirely. I don't live purely to breathe, good food is up there in the top tier of delights in life, along with family, travel, etc. Those are the motivating factors that get me up in the morning. It all just feels like a huge psychological operation. Consume less, so that someone else can consume more. Why would I willingly give up on everything I enjoy and make myself depressed?
- 2024throwaway 3y ago> Why would I willingly give up on everything I enjoy and make myself depressed? This is a very dramatic take. Where in the article is anything even remotely approaching that implied? This is just another form of protein that could be good, tasty, and healthy, and doesn't require animals to produce. There are many reasons this is a good alternative to have. You could eat this for one meal a week, while still eating "real" meat the rest of the time, and help reduce the pressure on our ecosystem just a tiny bit.
- imtringued 3y agoGiving people more options is the same as taking them away. Got it.
- zo1 3y agoIt's not taking them away...yet. That's the point, the conspiracy theorists among us see what's coming down the road and not what's in front of us.
- LargoLasskhyfv 3y agoThey have rediscovered https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn ? Yes it's a different fungus, but still?
- shermantanktop 3y agoThe fungus family is humongous.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- aszantu 3y agofor me at least, healthy sources of fat are the bigger problem. I'm pretty intolerant to carbs and processed food in general. So I ended up on a high fat diet. I'm sure I could survive on protein powder and butter. So I think, Protein taste isn't the problem, getting the fat right in this mold-patty is probably going to be an issue.
- scns 3y agoYou need Mono- and polyunsaturated fatty acids. You can get them from olive/sesame/etc and algae oil.
- aszantu 3y agoya, if they're fresh, good oil oxidize fast, sadly
- wouldbecouldbe 3y agoIf that's the case you should really eat a mostly meat from ruminants ( beef / goat, etc) contrary to chicken & pigs transform a large part of the less stable fats of plants. In most countries you can find cows that graze in national parks and order ground beef & organs in bulk. But even with a bad diet those animals will be "healthier" to consume.
- aszantu 3y agodoing that already
- guestbest 3y agoI found switching from regular grocery meats and eggs to ‘organic’ made a world of difference not just in taste for me but digestion. I don’t see any issue in getting my proteins from eggs since they are cage free. Eggs are high in fat and protein.
- aszantu 3y agoegg yolks also have biotin which seems to support the intestinal lining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin
- thelastgallon 3y agoMany States are banning fake meat: https://www.wired.com/story/cultivated-meat-florida-ban/ https://www.wired.com/story/cultivated-meat-florida-ban/
- lucubratory 3y agoYeah, it's crazy how intense the meat lobbying is right now.
- rsynnott 3y agoThis seems rather unlikely to stand up to court scrutiny, I'd have thought. And realistically, ultimately this sort of protectionism almost never lasts. I'm sure Ron DeSantis, had he been around early last century, would've banned cars to appease the horse lobby, too (and protectionist bans on cars were absolutely a thing in the early days), but there's no future to it. In any case, this appears to only cover cultured meat, which is not commercially available in significant quantity anywhere, and likely won't be for some time. It doesn't cover quorn and the like (the koji mold product is very much in the quorn category, not the cultured meat category).
- cmrdporcupine 3y agoAh yes, the legislative accomplishments of the political party in the US which supports the unbridled free market... Uhh.. what?
- colordrops 3y agoI've tried some mushroom-based meats and they make me ill. I think that's true of a double-digit percentage of the population. Hopefully this stuff doesn't suffer the same fate.
- helpfulmandrill 3y agoHow does this represent a breakthrough beyond mycoprotein A.K.A. Quorn(TM) ?
- rsynnott 3y ago> First, Hill-Maini focused on boosting the mold’s production of heme – an iron-based molecule which is found in many lifeforms but is most abundant in animal tissue, giving meat its color and distinctive flavor. I think this is the main practical difference; more aesthetics than anything else. Of course, for food, aesthetics are all-important; realistically, people will only accept a meat substitute if it tastes as they expect.
- pigpang 3y agoThen natural meat producers will be forced out of bisness, then artificial food producers will shrinkflate and shitflate their product.
- helpfulmandrill 3y agoI think there will always be some real meat production, unless the ethical consensus shifts so much that it is banned.
- nuc1e0n 3y agoFor PR reasons I wouldn't call it mold. Call it fungi instead. People love things like truffles.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y agoSounds very attractive, GMO Mold. (Sarcasm) This needs a very hard rebrand to every be sellable to the general public.
- stubish 3y agoOf course. Like Quorn, mold in your freezer for nearly 40 years. Or blue cheese for that matter.
- mrpopo 3y agoMold is used on dozen varieties of cheese, on cured meats like salami, in Asian cuisine (Tempeh/Oncom, miso paste, soy sauce). More generally, fermentation and bacteria are essential to most cuisines in the world. If you feel put off by the idea of eating mold, I feel sad for your taste buds.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y agoThere is a difference between fermentation and pure mold. And there is safety in tradition, not in an unknown modified variant. But that's besides the point, I mainly meant his needs to be rebranded ;)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wsintra2022 3y agoQuorn HQ in stokesly UK make meat alternative products from funghi - I am not affiliated, just saying…
- pif 3y agoWho is actually demanding this fad? What's wrong with the natural way of eating?
- TruthSHIFT 3y agoThe “natural way” would be perfectly fine. But, almost all protein is created on factory farms that are unsustainable. Nothing about the way we consume meat is natural.
- pif 3y agoSustainability is part of ecology, and it shares the fundamental aspect of all ecology: it is important, very important, priority 1. But priority 0 remains quality of life. If fungi are not as liked as natural meat, what we need is sustainable meat, not sustainable other. Quality of life now means beef. When beef will not be available, this crap will make sense.
- imtringued 3y agoI don't know what your definition of natural is, but it clearly excludes things like soy sauce.
- pif 3y agoI personally would not suffer if soy disappeared from the planet, but that's just me! Anyway, soy sauce is something that people _added_ to their diet. The article is about _substituting_ an important part of the diet.
- foolz 3y agoCalling a specific diet the "natural way of eating" is either very egotistical or just plain naive. There are groups around the world that eat vastly different diets than a typical westerner diet. Including ones that are vegetarian, and have been for a lot longer than you might expect.
- padjo 3y agoI just wish someone could genetically engineer something to make vegan casein.
- jschveibinz 3y agoYour wish is coming true: https://vegnews.com/2023/6/climax-foods-plant-based-casein https://vegnews.com/2023/6/climax-foods-plant-based-casein https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2021/12/10/Fooditive-develops-genetically-modified-cow-free-casein-in-Europe https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2021/12/10/Fooditive-d... https://www.greenqueen.com.hk/pureture-fermentation-vegan-plant-based-casein-cheaper-dairy-protein/ https://www.greenqueen.com.hk/pureture-fermentation-vegan-pl...
- reportgunner 3y agoI didn't read the whole article but I think this is a fungi alternative not a meat alternative.