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I always knew I was different, I didn't know I was a sociopath
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago[flagged]
- thinkingkong 3y agoThats not at all what research and the definition implies.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago[flagged]
- actionfromafar 3y agoIf they think they can get something out of admitting, why wouldn't they?
- pi-e-sigma 3y agoGeee... I thought it was crystal clear that when I stated 'a sociopath would never admit to being a sociopath' it was about a confession where you genuinely admit you are behaving badly out of your sense of remorse. Any kind of 'tactical' admissions simply don't count. It's like with pathological liars, they too, can sometimes admit to some lies but still maintain that they are 'generally' honest.
- Ekaros 3y agoWhy would sociopath think that being sociopath is bad or wrong? They could very well think that it is what makes them better than others. If they lack remorse they can admit that they are sociopaths without any remorse or regret.
- pi-e-sigma 3y agoBecause they understand that being a sociopath is considered to be 'bad' by the society. What's so difficult to understand? Liars and pretty everybody also think that being good at lying is an advantage but admitting to being a liar is simply a bad tactic
- clows 3y agoI don't know why your definition is _the_ definition. A sociopath can be self aware.
- blamestross 3y agoRight, admitting you behave a certain way isn't the same as "admitting you are wrong". Hell it is a useful tool for either fitting in or when you get in trouble. The biggest thing you seem to miss, is that being a sociopath is a lack of intuition and instincts, not what choices they make. Our entire society and economic structure is about convincing sociopaths to contribute despite the disability.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago[flagged]
- FarMcKon 3y agoOh! Glad to see you are so well educated and experienced in mental health treatment, that you can speak for what every single person that medical condition would ever conceivably do.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoPlease don't break the site guidelines, no matter how wrong another comment is or you feel it is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- nippoo 3y agoThis is an oft-repeated quote which doesn't have any backing to it.
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago[flagged]
- roywiggins 3y agoI think the burden of proof is usually on the person making the "all X do Y" statement, don't you?
- junon 3y agoSorry, what were your credentials on the subject, again? Why the hostile tone?
- pi-e-sigma 3y ago[flagged]
- lupire 3y agoIt's just that poster's personality. Check their history.
- junon 3y agoDoesn't make it right.
- qumpis 3y agoFascinating article. I wonder what made her do the steps in finding what's "different" with her, and most of all, why the need to fix it arose. Is it to "fit in", understandably? It somehow felt alien to me, and this shows my ignorance on the topic, that people lacking in empathy department would attempt to understand the reasons and act "good" towards others even if this feeling is only understood intellectually.
- endo_bunker 3y agoIt would be interesting to know if this is a common experience among sociopaths. I had always thought that behaviors like theft resulted more simply from the lack of empathy (and desire for the stolen item), rather than resolving some kind of internal tension.
- james-bcn 3y agoYes. She says "I was sorry I had to steal to stop fantasizing about violence" - it seems there is something else going on here, not just being a sociopath.
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoI would say not necessarily. Attempting to understand someone that totally lacks a personality trait means that their motivation pathways could be entirely different. Un-understandable by those who do have the trait. In this case, do something minor (stealing) to scratch the itch that, if left unscratched for long enough, could result in doing something major (violence). It feels like a reaction to societal rules that don't make sense in their experience of the world, and so maybe the itch exists because the rule(s) seem irrational and arbitrary to them. Or maybe the lack of empathy leaves a hole to be filled with mischief.
- DrDroop 3y agoSpecial books for special children did an interview with a self identified sociopath that shows the same level of self awareness and openness to discuss the problem[1]. I think it is always difficult to analyse why someones does something. In Psychology, behaviour is like a Feynman diagram, you can always rotate the picture and get a valid particle interaction. What is cause and what is effect is hard to tell, but yes some people steal out of a sense of justice if you can call it that. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdPMUX8_8Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdPMUX8_8Ms
- dustincoates 3y agoAnother article from the same person: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/25/magazine/patric-gagne-interview.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/25/magazine/patr... And discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39500240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39500240 And yet another from a few years back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24806019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24806019
- TwoNineFive 3y agoIt says a lot about HN that people keep posting this.
- djyaz1200 3y agoSociopaths do love publicity
- sandspar 3y agoThe thrill response may be preserved.
- n4r9 3y agoShe seems to be a bit of an intriguing character. I remember googling her when that thread from 18 days ago popped up and couldn't figure out whether she was genuine or simply a very good self-publicist chasing a literary niche. Seeing her pop up again has made me lean towards the latter. I googled around again and discovered a reddit thread in "askpsychology": https://www.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_anyone_know_where_the_writer_patric_gagne/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_... It raises a few interesting concerns, for example: * You'd expect someone with a degree in psychology to be unlikely to use the term "sociopath" so freely and without qualification or clarification. * Her credentials seem questionable. There's no record of her actually having a PhD and no record of a dissertation in proquest. It's possible she did a "PsyD" program at California Graduate Institute. * She appears to use clinical terminology incorrectly and make claims on her (now disappeared) blog that aren't backed up by research. * Her real name appears to be Patricia Cagle, however she wrote articles under the name "Patric Gagne" for a column called Modern Love in NYT which apparently does not permit pseudonyms.
- fnord77 3y agono, she's just a garden-variety narcissist
- 77pt77 3y agoThis sounds very similar to the book Confessions of a Sociopath A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight Pretty mediocre book BTW.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rapsey 3y ago> After years of study, intensive therapy and earning a Ph.D. in psychology I wonder what the percentage of psychologists get their degrees to figure out what the hell is wrong with them. I bet it is pretty large. Also her gaze in the picture is quite unnerving. I wonder if it is because I know she is a sociopath or would I find it just as unnerving if I did not.
- spiffytech 3y agoMy wife is a therapist and says it's a very common reason people get into the field.
- em-bee 3y agoi think this is positive. because it means therapists can empathize when people feel that there is something wrong with them. there is nothing worse than a therapist who doesn't take your feelings seriously. also, when you do need therapy yourself, depending on what kind of therapist you get, you can end up spending a lot of time learning just for your own sake. my brother did that, and at some point he was able to explain his issues better than the therapists he talked to. did you ask your wife about her reasons to become a therapist?
- staticman2 3y ago>i think this is positive. because it means therapists can empathize when people feel that there is something wrong with them. there is nothing worse than a therapist who doesn't take your feelings seriously. On the other hand if you happen to have a condition that doesn't respond well to therapy it seems kind of horrific to me to become a therapist just to learn that.
- zen928 3y agoI don't want therapists to empathize and feel my emotions, I want them to sympathize and understand why I feel that way. You don't want doctors who have compromised their judgment by being in emotional states from self inflicted empathy when trying to treat people in a judgment free and rational way. Taking my feelings seriously as another input to the question of my mental state is different than feeling a personal empathetic connection with someone who is supposed to be their patient.
- roydivision 3y agoThe subject has always fascinated me, largely to understand this character type when I encounter it. I've worked for a couple of sociopaths, it was extremely confusing and difficult. I find it interesting that the author understands that the way she behaves can have negative impacts on people around her. In my experience this is unusual, sociopaths I've met either don't get this, or if they do, don't care, and in some cases use it as a 'special power' to advance themselves, especially in business. If you're not hampered by feelings of guilt or unfairness a lot of social barriers fall away.
- JohnBooty 3y agoIn my experience this is unusual, sociopaths I've met either don't get this Wow, that doesn't jive with my personal experiences or what I've ever read about sociopathy. It sounds more like you're describing folks on the autism spectrum. Sociopaths (which I realize is a somewhat deprecated term) tend to be skilled manipulators because they do understand how they effect others, but don't particularly feel much guilt about it. They also behaved pretty scrupulously most of the time, because even if you have little empathy, behaving like a creepy scumbag is generally not going to be beneficial in the long run. If you are a sociopath, you might not feel "guilty" about being a shitty neighbor or even murdering somebody, but on a purely practical level, your life will still be much more pleasant if you're friendly with the neighbors and the cops aren't busting down your door to arrest you for murder. Or at least that's how it seemed to me. I'm just curious observer, not somebody really qualified to have an opinion...
- dirtybirdnj 3y ago> Wow, that doesn't jive with my personal experiences or what I've ever read about sociopathy. It sounds more like you're describing folks on the autism spectrum. The amount of undue hate that people on the spectrum get for being sociopaths or narcissist is awful. You are correct that they may misunderstand or "not get" social situations. You are incorrect in that they don't care / can't feel the emotion of a situation. Often they are overwhelmed by this and it's what makes "dealing" (passing as NT) difficult. The amount of times I have had people socially manipulate situations against me is difficult to count. Any time you speak up about this you are the "crazy" one. These have mostly been situations where sociopaths are abusing me for the entertainment / social benefit reason. They DO NOT CARE about the pain / suffering they cause. This has been a source of extreme stress, pain and suffering in my life. YMMV obviously but the amount of time I have to spend explaining this to people is disheartening. It's like nobody wants to believe that people can be so awful... and this belief can hand wave away any bad behavior being described. > because even if you have little empathy, behaving like a creepy scumbag is generally not going to be beneficial in the long run. I think you significantly underestimate the benefit to risk ratio. There are a lot more terrible, manipulative, sadistic people out there than "kind but misunderstood" people. The averages are not in our favor.
- klabb3 3y agoSuper interesting. I can recognize this behavior with people playing multiplayer games. When there are no stakes, and everything is a game, people mess around – especially when they’re bored. If it’s just a game, who cares? People with extremely low “emotional reactivity” appear unlikely to share with others (why would they, most of us share stuff for empathy - and they may not see the point - or lose out socially). According to the Gervais principle, they are rewarded for their excellence of social deception in institutions like corporations. Then there are the worse, hardened criminals as well, taking assignments nobody else would, or for their own sadistic maladaption. The best fit in a healthy society, I think, is doing things that others can’t, like extreme sport type of stuff, or astronaut, brain surgeon - sound decision making under immense pressure. Alex Hannold for instance, has an almost non-existing amygdala response even compared to other extreme sporters, iirc. He apppears deeply aware of this, and seems to channel everything into his climbing, which overall seems really healthy.
- nordsieck 3y ago> The best fit in a healthy society, I think, is doing things that others can’t, like extreme sport type of stuff, or astronaut, brain surgeon Reminds me of the Bill Burr bit on Lance Armstrong[1] > The guy was a sociopath on a bicycle. As far as I'm concerned we got off easy. If that guy was working for a corporation he would have been pouring stuff in the water supply, doing god knows what. Just keep him on the bike. Let him go up and down hills. He's not hurting anybody. --- 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YL04v-J5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YL04v-J5U
- coldtea 3y agoThough on the matter of Lance Armstrong, well, tons of others, in the same races, did the same things.
- freejazz 3y agoArmstrong ruined the careers of his colleagues that didn't want to participate in his doping. He was the doping kingpin. https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/29240335 https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/29240335 Here's Lance chasing down another rider and publicly threatening them to "zip their lips" when they were trying to go public about the doping in the peloton.
- rgrieselhuber 3y agoHer dead eyes are kind of a giveaway.
- petee 3y agoThats not a fair assumption. I know more than a few people who have flat expressions or speech and their personality is totally opposite. For some its how they are raised, others it a muscular issue. And yet others are awkward in front of a camera
- supertofu 3y agoI'm sure she can mask, just like millions of other neurodivergent people. That photo was chosen deliberately.
- rambambram 3y agoInteresting read. Anybody interested in the topic should read/watch Sam Vaknin.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoI’m really worried that there’s a trend to normalize narcissistic and sociopathic behavior simply because “they are self aware” There are a few ASPD, NPD or narcissist Instagram pages which are clearly sociopaths getting their attention fix by acknowledging and describing these behaviors - this isn’t the same as recovery groups or serious interventions because ASPD has been seen as impossible to treat (though that’s slowly changing by viewing it as a basket of disorders) So it seems like we have basically birthed an entirely new class of advanced sociopaths who can recognize their behaviors, pretend like they’re actually working towards fixing them, even warning people that they aren’t safe so they get a free pass on their behavior. In the meantime, they just continue to act in only their own best interest, while shrugging their shoulders, and throwing their hands up, saying “what can I do? I’m working on it.” Sociopath awareness pins coming soon? So let’s not get confused here. Self reported non clinically observed sociopaths don’t meet the DSM definition for ASPD because lack of guilt, not simply the awareness of antisocial behavior. One can certainly argue about definitions, but experience in narcissistic abuse survivors groups (many of which I am in) is consistent and robust in identifying major behavioral patterns including self-aggrandizement. This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally. Numerous studies indicate high correlation with aspd and powerful positions so it’s not like this group needs a leg up. Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible. I’m unaware of anything more destructive than a smart sociopath and it seems the acceptance of them is growing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder#Diagnosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disor... https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20353934 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-pe...
- cupcakecommons 3y agoincredibly tiresome and stupid trend if it exists
- hjanssen 3y agoSo what is your proposed solution? I'd rather have a sociopath that is upfront about being one to me than figuring that fact out by myself. Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all. I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is.
- slibhb 3y agoI think it's more likely that she's lying for attention (and a book deal) than it is that she's actually a sociopath. Since we're talking about subjective feelings, it's not like there's any way to knwo for sure. I suppose if she killed someone and was managing this publicity blitz from jail it would add some credence.
- pkoird 3y agoLying to thousands shamelessly for their own gain? How very... Sociopathic.
- slibhb 3y agoWhether it's sociopathic depends on how she feels about it!
- Cheer2171 3y agoSomeone who dedicates so much of your life pretending to be a sociopath just for publicity.... You'd have to be a sociopath to do that.
- cladopa 3y agoI had the experience of dealing with clinically diagnosed pshycopaths. One of them was in my school, a kid that was very smart but too rational, you could feel there was something wrong with him. He did not have real friends so he tried threaten people into becoming his friend or else... He was not using physical force, but using his mind in order to plan punishing people rationally. He just could not understand the concept of friendship, as he could not feel it. He believed everybody else was faking it. He was a cynic.
- cladopa 3y agoPostData: He got diagnosed as a 30 years old or so.
- pi-e-sigma 3y agoHow could he be 'very rational' and also 'threaten people to become his friends'?
- badcppdev 3y agoHypothetically if this was rephrased as "he was very rational and threatened other children to play with him and treat him like a friend" does that make sense to you?
- pi-e-sigma 3y agoNot really to be honest. Rational person would know that you can't force someone to like you. Forcing 'friendship' looks more like something an autistic would do.
- toss1 3y ago>>Rational person would know that you can't force someone to like you. True, but TBF, it takes experience to realize that, and the psychopathy kind of hinders getting that experience? (Reading could also help, but not in the same way)
- rafaelmn 3y agoI thought this fad of building identity on labels was dying down ? I have no idea if her diagnosis is right - doesn't sound pathological/needing a diagnosis. Reading trough the article I don't feel I've gained any practical insights - just reads like someone trying to sound interesting by putting a label on themselves and explaining how it fits them.
- helboi4 3y agoI agree. We really need pop-identity-politics to die. It's like a race to find the most obscure and irrelevant form of oppression made to distract us from actual oppression.
- wtfwhateven 3y agothe writer of the article is lying, she doesn't have a PhD and is using someone else's name, it's just an ad for another book https://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_anyone_know_where_the_writer_patric_gagne/ https://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_...
- xerox13ster 3y agoWell, I guess she isn’t lying about being a sociopath…
- huytersd 3y agoWith the added “clout” of displaying a mostly male psychotropy as a female.
- lacoolj 3y agoCelexa does wonders for this
- tgv 3y ago> After years of study, intensive therapy and earning a Ph.D. in psychology, I can say that sociopaths aren’t “bad” or “evil” or “crazy.” We simply have ... Holy moral vacuum, Batman. That is not true, at all. First, psychology doesn't do ethics. It tries (not very well, I may add) to find causes for behavior, emotions, feelings, and social and cognitive processes. But it doesn't justify nor condemn those. Second, stabbing someone with a pencil is bad. The person who does that is bad. Sure, they can redeem themselves, but then they still were bad when they did so. The "we simply have..." part of the sentence is like saying "people with a low iq aren't dumb, they only have a harder time understanding complex issues". It's self-absolving bollocks.
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoI'm a lumberjack and I'm ok = all lumberjacks are ok. The fact they're attempting to speak on behalf of all is really starting on the wrong foot. Painting with a brush with the broadness of stereotypes. Don't call me evil, I'm just misunderstood. Without empathy I'd call into question their ability to judge bad, evil, or crazy for the rest of society that do feel empathy. It's like someone who is red/green colourblind defining what red is for the non-colourblind. And 'crazy' is just 'we don't have a name for that particular thing yet': I'm not crazy, we call it antisocial personality disorder now, there's questions and a scale and everything. Not crazy.
- francisofascii 3y agoWhat I get from that comment is sociopaths are not motivated by evil behaviors. And so the comment aims to differentiate sociopaths from those who are out to kill and destroy.
- tgv 3y agoI'm not really sure what you're trying to say. First, behavior is not motivation. Second, if someone is evil is a moral judgement of behavior and intentions, not a clinical diagnosis. Third, there may be different "levels" of sociopathology, a spectrum if you will, but that doesn't excuse all of them.
- wtfwhateven 3y agohttps://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_anyone_know_where_the_writer_patric_gagne/ https://old.reddit.com/r/askpsychology/comments/jqewhk/does_... this person is lying, she doesn't have a PhD, she's using someone else's name
- yuck39 3y agoI thought this was a joke at first. I guess her story adds up!
- __jonas 3y agoAs far as I can tell from this reddit thread she is accused of this, but I don’t see 100% conclusive evidence of anything at all, am I missing something?
- mikequinlan 3y agoHere is her web site, with contact information (an email address): https://patricgagne.com/ https://patricgagne.com/
- Benlights 3y agoHer about page on https://patricgagne.com/ https://patricgagne.com/ says this > B.A. · University of California Los Angeles > M.A. · California Graduate Institute > PhD · California Graduate Institute of The Chicago School of Professional Psychology
- n4r9 3y agoIt might be pedantic but according to Wikipedia the CGI awards a PsyD rather than a PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Graduate_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Graduate_Institute This Wiki page has a little more about the differences between the two: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Psychology It seems like the PsyD has more emphasis on clinical practise and (one supposes) less on theoretical research.
- 3y ago
- faster 3y agoWhen I saw the headline I thought it was from the author of "Confessions of a Sociopath: A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight".
- stareatgoats 3y agoThis is an area where we don't know the answers yet, but we're fumbling along. The main question that is still up for debate is this: Are people really completely set in their personalities, so that we can say that this person IS a psychopath, that person IS a liar, I AM an upstanding citizen etc. The tendency for claiming such clearly comes from our current zeitgeist with its propensity for fixing labels to people, but to what extent has such fixed characteristics factually been true, and for what categories of labels, regardless of epoch? We (or at least I) don't know.
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoThis joke was told to me as "Luigi the Bridge Builder", but has come in many other forms: https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcgonagall-the-bridge-builder-source-of-this-joke/420809 https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mcgonagall-the-bridge-buil... Not the current zeitgeist, just how humans categorise things naturally.
- stareatgoats 3y agoHeh, that's actually one of my favorite Norm Macdonald jokes. Didn't know that it wasn't his invention though, thanks. And fwiw, yeah, this covers the conundrum nicely.
- fddrdplktrew 3y ago[dead]
- jokethrowaway 3y agoThis doesn't sound like the conventional definition of sociopathy (you still have empathy but act against it, feel guilty) but psychopathy (innate, lack of empathy) First, I've heard about these unstoppable "impulses", it's more about being less risk averse, not caring about damage done to others, thinking you'll get through it successfully.
- helboi4 3y agoI think there is actually no clear definition of the difference between sociopathy and psychopathy that is agreed on
- nikisweeting 3y agoIf nothing else, the comments here show me that we need a new word to describe people on the "sociopath spectrum" who intellectually decide to not be evil. There is a reason ASPD requires the anti-social element to be diagnosable, but it seems we lack a popular word to describe ASPD without the AS. Psychopathy and sociopathy have too much cultural baggage because everyone thinks of extreme cases like American Psycho, or the most overt narcissistic sociopaths they've personally interacted with. There is a whole class of people on the sociopath spectrum who go unnoticed because they're just better at hiding it and living normal lives, even if they don't feel emotions as strongly (or at all) compared to most people, they can decide to intellectually value other peoples experiences and simulate it. I suspect there's also a lot of overlap with high functioning autism, where intellect and desire to model people accurately can make up for emotional hardware / mirror neuron deficiencies. If we had less polarizing language to describe the spectrum of non-evil sociopathy, more people in this category would feel safe publicly describing their experiences, and the discourse wouldn't be dominated by grifters and subsequent backlash. I think it's good to accept people on this spectrum as long as they chose to not be evil (and succeed at it), it is pointless judge people on their own internal experience of the world if it's not affecting others! They have every right to find community and support structures, and work towards integrating healthily with society, just like those with BPD, autism, bipolar, etc.
- pcthrowaway 3y ago> we need a new word to describe people on the "sociopath spectrum" who intellectually decide to not be evil Dexters?
- neonate 3y agohttps://archive.ph/6rMGc https://archive.ph/6rMGc
- RecycledEle 3y agoIs it common for sociopaths to have a need to hurt others? I only feel a need to defend the innocent, but when bad people.hurt the innocent, it is almost unbearable for me to stand aside and do nothing.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y agoWorks where archive.ph is blocked: https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4419501177551&w=u9zd5r-YjP5BGwwwt_eMQ-JqyZgKZl7f https://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?d=4419501177551&w=u9zd5r-YjP...
- accfor1comment 3y agoI’ve seen this narcissist in the New York Times with a similar article promoting her shitty book. Yawn. Personally I blame the journos for promoting this loser. Not believing any of this until I can sit down with her mother, etc. and see more proof and verify these stories. Though if she lies about a significant part of her life story that may be another sign she’s a sociopath. Still lame.
- supernewsman 3y agoSeriously. I’m getting so sick of this “yeah I’m a sociopath look at how groundbreaking this is, we are so edgy and journalistic and insightful” trend going around, when no, you are just annoying and weird. No one is going to buy your pseudo introspective book no matter how many cinematic cover photos you take. These articles need to stop. There was another article that came across the same way, with this guy claiming humans don’t have “free will” but if you wanted to see any of his scientific “research” it just so happened that you also had to buy his book. Publications need to stop giving these attention seeking narcissists their supply for the love of god it’s becoming unbearable.