44 ms·

The Apple Vision Pro

187 points by allenleee 3y ago

furyofantares 3y ago
> One of the realities of the iPad is that, for most customers, it is a personal video player; for that particular use case the Apple Vision is superior in nearly every way. Pretty hard for me to imagine parents handing their young kids AVP instead of an ipad to watch videos, or an adult putting on AVP as they go to sleep instead of the pad on the side of the bed. Some people will prefer AVP on a plane over an ipad perhaps, but not all. Maybe teens will prefer it for casual watching, but many people will prefer something where it is less awkward to get up and pee or get a snack or interact with someone else in your house.
- cramjabsyn 3y ago
  The quest 3 does essentially the same at roughly 10x lower price. I say that because I think the price tag makes AVP a non starter for vast majority of families with kids. I think its out of reach price-wise even for a lot of professionals without kids tbh. But also this is the first version. The original iPhone didn't have copy/paste or the ability to shoot video. The software will continue to get refined and the hardware will get smaller. It'll eventually fit into roughly standard sized glasses and I think that's going to change everything
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    > The original iPhone didn't have copy/paste I eventually did get iPhones, but vividly remember being laughed at -- as a Mac user -- for choosing the little white HTC Magic with a trackball because I prioritised the idea of actually being able to edit text (which we now do on iPhones with a force-touch gesture not much more elegant than that trackball and lacking some of its nuance.)
  - kshacker 3y ago
    There have to be limits to miniaturization. I have seen the industry evolve from 8088 chips to now; and what we have now was likely unimaginable then; but aren't we going to run into limits eventually? When I look at my Apple Watch, even that feels too big (thick) to me, so thinning AVP is quite far off IMO. On the other hand, all the research to make things thin will finally pay off when it happens. If Vision Pro can go half its weight and double the battery (even if detached like now), that will probably be the point when it becomes a serious platform.
  - mrcwinn 3y ago
    I own a Quest 3 and on day three of AVP. I can assure you, the difference in quality - and therefore movie-watching experience - is night and day between these devices. Watching a movie in AVP is outstanding. This device doesn't shine in all cases, but it shines there. It's like saying, "Sure, Ferarris are cool, but my VW can also drive to the track." (No shade thrown to VWs. Love the boxy, 90s-era Jetta.) Usual disclaimers: Is it for everyone? Probably not. Is it expensive? Very. Is it perfect? No. "Essentially the same?" Not at all.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      There's no difference in detail for 1080p content. There absolutely is for 4K content though. If you're happy with 1080p the Quest is perfectly fine. Not for the AR experience of a screen in your living room, but for a VR experience watching a floating screen in space.
    - cramjabsyn 3y ago
      Yeah the VW/Ferrari analogy is good, because as two cars they do essentially the same thing. Also I think the group of people who are shelling out $4k for the AVR are going to be heavily biased to justify the expense. I don't think there's a $3000 difference between the two devices. Maybe $500.
      - FumblingBear 3y ago
        Fundamentally though, that's just the nature of diminishing returns. Of course the value proposition for the Quest 3 is far better than the value prop of the Vision Pro. It's no different than consumer GPU's. There will be enthusiasts who purchase the GTX 4090 for $2000 but the average consumer is far better off buying something like a 3060Ti for $340. My favorite example of this is a site called Logical Increments [0] that clearly shows just how expensive pushing to the next tier of quality is as you scale up. [0] - https://www.logicalincrements.com/ https://www.logicalincrements.com/
        hackeraccount 3y ago
  - deepGem 3y ago
    There is a counter argument to this - the iPhone shape did not change, the shape evolved. Apple is never known to change shapes or geometry, they evolve from the same geometric construct. The AVP fitting into standard sized glasses like swim goggles is a possibility but it'll be more like Cyclops visors. I am not sure if it will ever achieve a Rayban form factor.
    - smileson2 3y ago
      [dead]
  - m3kw9 3y ago
    A card board home also can be argued to do essentially what house does. Please do not write such arguments
  - jsbisviewtiful 3y ago
    > I think the price tag makes AVP a non starter for vast majority of families with kids. I don't have kids and the price is still outlandish for my household of well-earners. I would never pay more than $2k for this.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      I think it’s that and also more than that. For example I would like, and could reasonably afford, a decent technical camera rig and a 45mp+ digital mirrorless camera to go on the back of it. I know how to use it properly to get value from it. The outlay for this is more than the Vision Pro by a small margin. But there are many things I probably should spend that money on before that. The Vision Pro, as amusing as it surely is, is way, way down the road beyond even that purchase. Having the money to spend on something — whether a personal or business expense - means engaging with the opportunity cost of spending the money. And even if you comfortably have the money, you still question the value. What is going on right now is a lot of people have a Vision Pro on fifteen day approval and they are all feverishly writing blog posts and tweets to explore every possible way that they could get other people to validate their impulse purchase. Because that’s what it is. Unless you’re going to build an app for it —- go all-in on that ecosystem —- it’s a weird thing to prioritise spending $3500 on.
  - GeekyBear 3y ago
    > The quest 3 does essentially the same at roughly 10x lower price. Only if you claim that having "a screen" is the only metric that counts. > Apple is very proud of the displays inside the Vision Pro, and for good reason — they represent a huge leap forward in display technology... They also look generally incredible — sharp enough to read text on without even thinking about it... The displays are the main reason the Vision Pro is so expensive — they’re at the heart of the Vision Pro experience and what makes the whole thing work. You are always looking at them, after all. https://www.theverge.com/24054862/apple-vision-pro-review-vr-ar-headset-features-price https://www.theverge.com/24054862/apple-vision-pro-review-vr...
- brk 3y ago
  I agree, for whatever it's worth. There is already a social stigma around people being focused on their phones/screens, and the disconnect it creates with people around you. But that disconnect is somewhat virtual in that the phone is absorbing your attention, but it's not a physical barrier. These AR glasses all, by design, create a very real physical barrier between the wearer and their surroundings. It also doesn't help that they look goofy, and sometimes slightly creepy. I think this creates a much bigger barrier to widespread adoption, it is a much larger conscious decision by a user to wear an AR kit. You can't just glance at it and get sucked into the content stream, it is a very distinct process to put it on/take it off. I've been intrigued by the Apple Vision, and other AR devices, but it still feels like there isn't a breakthrough moment for them.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I'm already not a huge fan of wearing something like noise canceling earpods out in public. I couldn't imagine wearing goggles isolating me from what's going on. But I realize a lot of people don't care.
    - Lio 3y ago
      I love noise cancelling headphones in public. Many shops, cafes and restaurants insist on playing music I really hate. Certain types of popular music make my skin crawl. My favourite tech product of recent years has been effective noise cancelling headphones I can keep in my pocket to block that out.
  - j4yav 3y ago
    Slightly creepy? It looks like someone wired their whole face directly to the internet dopamine tap and turned it to eleven.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      Oh hush. You can still see their "eyes" [0]. What are you complaining about? ;-) [0] not much better than the creepy face-screens in Jamin Winans' amazing low-budget movie, Ink
- cmiller1 3y ago
  > less awkward to get up and pee Arguable, imagine getting up to pee and not interrupting your movie at all.
  - furyofantares 3y ago
    More succinctly, here's my point: Maybe AVP is a better personal video player for people who are very into optimizing the experience of the content they're consuming. But almost every use of an ipad as a personal video player that I can think of isn't that.
  - wcrossbow 3y ago
    Maybe for the ladies or the men that pee sitting down, if they manage to make their way to the toilet without rolling down a flight of stairs. However, if I try to pee with one of this on my wife will not appreciate it.
    - __egb__ 3y ago
      What if there were an app that could overlay a calculated stream trajectory over the view of the toilet, showing you exactly where and how to stand to minimize urination errors. The name of the app could be Piss Optimal Flow Flight, or Piss OFF.
      - cozzyd 3y ago
        Gamifying stand-up urination is probably the best use case for AR I've heard
      - dvngnt_ 3y ago
        not if there's a split steam
    - shwaj 3y ago
      Let's hear it for the sitzpinklers!
    - Yizahi 3y ago
- shusaku 3y ago
  To be fair, it was pretty hard for me to imagine parents handing their young kids an iPad.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  Apple Vision Pro is heavy and inconvenient to use. It has glare and poor FoV. It gets hot and has a short battery life. There are plenty of reasons why you might not want to use it, even if it is actually pretty nice for watching movies.
  - mvkel 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      I'm replying to you from one :)
      - mvkel 3y ago
        Pwned. Rereading your comment, I apologize. You were citing the most common "cons" of it, which are totally valid reasons not to buy one. AND it's still the best VR experience we've got :)
        saagarjha 3y ago
        I agree!
  - ramesh31 3y ago
    >It has glare and poor FoV. It gets hot and has a short battery life. FOV is the most unforgivable. I can't for the life of me imagine who is deciding that 110 is sufficient. I would give up just about every single other specification in a headset for 180°+, and I have owned just about every consumer headset released since DK2.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      > I would give up just about every single other specification in a headset for 180+. I'm having a very difficult time imagining how that would be physically possible. I'm actually curious what the highest theoretically possible FOV is for a conveniently sized device strapped to your face, and how close we are to it already.
- justapassenger 3y ago
  [dead]
- mithr 3y ago
  The biggest drawback for me is that AVP only works if you're watching things alone. You can easily watch an iPad with your SO, with your kid, with your friends — and AVP may be a better experience, but only for you alone. It may be amazing on a plane, but even then only when you're traveling by yourself.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    Nit: you can group watch things with people who are remote. My friends have done this thing since the pandemic where we pick a show and all watch it from our own homes but while on a Discord voice call, and it just got a whole lot nicer to do this since last week ;)
- duxup 3y ago
  Yup, my ability to quickly monitor what my kids are up to is a big deal to me. Putting on a headset, software options for monitoring, they're just not as quick, detailed, or convenient.
- tim333 3y ago
  I watch a fair bit of video and have no great desire for some heavy mask thing on my face. The laptop works fine for casual viewing.
- wilg 3y ago
  Also, iPads are worse personal video players than laptops. You wouldn't buy a personal video player with a 4:3 screen. Plus it doesn't stand up on its own so you can't set it on a surface to watch. You could reassemble it into a laptop if you want, but you'd be better off just with the laptop.
condiment 3y ago
Reading this article, it's nice to see I'm not alone in my thinking about the vision pro. Ignoring the remarks on entertainment (it's excellent!), I've believed for several years now that VR headsets are going to replace computer monitors, and the vision pro is a step in the right direction. But a 1:1 monitor projection from my macbook is not quite enough of a benefit to merit the drawbacks of the headset. And it turns out that all of the business software I use is highly interactive, so very little, if anything at all, can be run as a separate native vision pro app. Teams? I'm not using a persona in a professional setting. Also MSFT's implementation has really low information density. Slack? I need to be able to copy and paste, and the ipad compatibility app stinks. Outlook? Again, the ipad compatibility app is no good. Excel? Give me a break. I had tried the browser first, but it turns out that I have keyboard workflows that are very efficient, and requiring my gaze to shift is no good. To add to it, the gaze tracking highlights controls all over the app when I'm just trying to type, and if I glance at another window for reference, shifts my keyboard and mouse attention. Multiple monitors projected from a real computer really would be ideal here.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  one wonders if there is a current niche that could be filled where they have the excellent high fidelity screen of the Vision Pro but without the hand tracking, effectively making it a monitor HUB and optimized for that, but you can still use a mouse and keyboard in addition to some head tracking, but no hand gestures, as it were. Have it entirely driven (experience wise) by the external compute.
  - jbverschoor 3y ago
    I’d love to have portable multiple monitors. However, I’m not sure if that works with a MacBook Air, not sure how well it works, and not sure if I can still control my keyboard/trackpad. I don’t want to lift my arms/touch when editing text. A virtual machine or performant screensharing would work, but I haven’t experienced a good solution yet, so I don’t think it’ll be any better with the Vision Pro Everything under the condition there’s no eye and neck strain
sschueller 3y ago
Ipod was USD 399.- in 2001 (USD 686.- Today) and the Rio was USD 250.- in 1998 (USD 467.- Today). USD 3499 still seems way up there even for today.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Today the iPhone is $800 and offers tremendous user value. It's hard for a new device to compete against that.
  - duxup 3y ago
    The longevity, power, flexibility offered by computing devices today is amazing.
- ghaff 3y ago
  And it wasn't really out of line with things like a Walkman or other music-related devices that mainstream consumers were already buying.
- wpm 3y ago
  Do the original Mac
oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]
RankingMember 3y ago
[flagged]
- j4yav 3y ago
  It's not a very good summary. Just give reading it a chance - it's not too bad.
  - RankingMember 3y ago
    I read it, but found it a bit long-winded and felt others might feel the same. Maybe not!
HumblyTossed 3y ago
It's interesting seeing so many of these takes on AVP. So many people imagined how they'd use it when it came out. Now that it's out, they're realizing that reality doesn't meet their imagination. Not that AVP is bad or that it doesn't work correctly, it just doesn't do some of the things people expected it to or it has more limitations than they expected. Which, to me is odd why they would think this because this is an Apple product. You will only ever be able to use it the way Apple wants you to use it. If it doesn't fit your imagined use case, Apple expects you to adapt.
- zhobbs 3y ago
  I think it's just a function of the Apple marketing overselling the passthrough quality and productivity use cases.
  - querulous 3y ago
    the passthrough quality is a real letdown given the marketing. it's like looking at everything through a grimy, unwashed window i never expected it to be good as a productivity device because my own experience is while screen real estate is nice what really matters is the ergonomics of your work space and wearing a pair of ski goggles is never going to be ergonomic
    - noahtallen 3y ago
      Opinions are mixed the passthrough quality: https://youtu.be/UvkgmyfMPks?si=ElAWNbsyEN6t_wmP https://youtu.be/UvkgmyfMPks?si=ElAWNbsyEN6t_wmP
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  >Now that it's out, they're realizing that reality doesn't meet their imagination. Pretty much another iteration of cycle of VR adopters. Many of us went through this with original devices.
flerchin 3y ago
It's a solution in search of a problem. Everyone says "this is first gen, and it will only get better." I don't think that's right. "this is first gen, and it will only get cheaper." is more like it. Walking around without peripheral vision in order to be able to watch YouTube in the train station is not worth any amount of money.
- danans 3y ago
  > Walking around without peripheral vision in order to be able to watch YouTube in the train station is not worth any amount of money. I'm more worried about people trying to drive with this thing on.
  - unsignedint 3y ago
    Indeed, I'm quite convinced that individuals have attempted to drive while using their Quest 3, and it wouldn't surprise me if some have been pulled over for such actions. It seems likely that at least one person has taken this reckless behavior to an extreme. Apple products typically enjoy widespread popularity, though the Vision Pro appears to cater to a somewhat limited demographic that is serious enough to make the purchase. There are numerous instances of people confidently wearing these devices in public. Among the footage I've encountered, one particular video caught my attention, showing someone using a Vision Pro while driving a Tesla and getting pulled over, though I'm unsure about the video's authenticity.
    - mmarquezs 3y ago
      There is already a video of a driver using the Apple Vision on a Tesla Cybertruck which I assume was on auto pilot I guess.
      - unsignedint 3y ago
        It's likely the same video I've seen. Regardless of Auto Pilot, engaging in such behavior is still reckless and ill-advised.
peteforde 3y ago
This article addresses the MacOS vs visionOS thing, but doesn't go hard enough. It is incredibly frustrating that Apple seems determined to serve this up as kid gloves experience vs a general purpose computing device with direct access to a real file system and ultimately a shell prompt. I am not in love with how Meta has locked down the Quest but at least there is a thriving sideload app ecosystem. That is, at least there is a way to load up the media player of your choice and watch porn. Look, I get that corporate America is strangled by puritan values from the payment processing networks on up, but it is arrogant and willful ignorance to pretend that adult content consumption is not a major part of the VR/MR story. You want to know what the people who actually use VR the most do with their headsets most of the time? VRChat and SexLikeReal, which is the PornHub of VR if you don't know. Steve Jobs was a dude who loved to talk about doing LSD but in his later years, he became awkwardly fixated on preventing people from using Apple devices for the stuff most real people do. He's been gone a long time. It'll be a shame if their vision for spatial blah blah is sanitized and safe for work, even after dark.
- TIPSIO 3y ago
  Apple is trying to mainstream and normalize strapping a giant computer and camera to your face in everyday life. I think having it watered down will actually push the dream of wearable computers for common use by making people feel less uneasy around it.
  - peteforde 3y ago
    Could you explain further? General purpose computing directly implies that each user is free to do what they want with it, just like the MacBook Pro they bought from the same company. The world would be a lot more awesome if people weren't entitled to feel "uneasy" about what people they will never meet are doing legally in the privacy of their own homes.
    - rusticpenn 3y ago
      Removing any association with users as perverts. Google made that mistake with glass…
bemusedthrow75 3y ago
The "mea culpa, I have been part of over-egging a pre-launch product based on being blessed with privileged access to an extremely limited guided walkthrough and I lost all objectivity" shuffle. And that bit about a VR headset being better than an iPad for a personal video player is some seriously optimistic, overextended thinking. Is wearing half a kilo of electronics with a two hour battery life on your head really superior to a smaller screen with all-day battery life that you can put away at a moment's notice? (Even ignoring that video content often has more than two hours of runtime.)
- softirq 3y ago
  Yes it is. Watching a 3D movie on an entire wall in bed next to my spouse is mind blowing.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    You'll have to file me under a) doesn't watch films or use internet gadgets in bed, especially to the exclusion of someone else b) would at any rate choose a film my partner wanted to watch too c) ignoring the above, would probably buy the cheapest VR headset that offered a virtual theatre good enough
    - jasonjmcghee 3y ago
      (My experience with watching movies on VR headsets- haven’t tried newest generation) Have you ever watched a CAM version of a movie? I feel like this kind of activity peaked in late 2000s… That’s what it felt like watching a movie in VR to me. (In my experience with non-luxury headsets) It’s worse picture quality than my phone. For me, watching a movie in 4K on a TV is very very different than the equivalent of ~< 720p, blurry mess with giant god rays. If AVP can deliver on what people describe, it’s compelling. Still probably won’t buy one though
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        This is not true at all. You get full 1080p detail on a Quest, with excellent color and contrast. The AVP gets you to around 4K detail. It is nothing at all like CAM. Not in color and not in resolution. It doesn't even make sense to say that because the display specs for these devices are well known. God rays aren't really a problem watching TV content because they're most prevalent at the edges of the display, but you place your virtual screen in the middle. So they're basically a non-issue. (And TV's can have glare problems of their own if you're not watching them in the dark.)
darrenf 3y ago
I haven't read every review of the AVP, but I've read a few (not skim-read) - this, the Verge, Gruber, some others - and while everyone waxes lyrical about the movie watching experience, I haven't noticed a single comment about whether you can actually have a drink while doing so. I can't easily drink from a glass/can with a Quest 3 on my face. Would I be able to with an AVP?
- jlintz 3y ago
  Use a straw
- saagarjha 3y ago
  I find it to be pretty easy; some friends said they had trouble though. You can't see what you're drinking once you bring it close to your mouth, though.
- ghaff 3y ago
  A broader way to put it is whether people really want a completely immersive experience for most purposes. I mostly don't.
- filoleg 3y ago
  Drank a can of beer while wearing AVP this past weekend. No issues whatsoever, the device profile isn’t obtrusive enough to interfere. I was struggling to do that with Meta Quest 2 before tho, as the shape of it on my face ends up hitting the top of the can sometimes, and it is just straight up not the best experience. For that case, yeah, a straw would help.
- wilsonnb3 3y ago
  lots of comments on the vision pro subreddit are saying that a straw is somewhere between very helpful and essential.
- astrange 3y ago
  It's not a problem (depending on cup shape), but having anything very close to the camera breaks the passthrough illusion and can be uncomfortable.
kungfupawnda 3y ago
I have the disposable income but I already feel so alienated from the world as a software engineer. Especially post-covid. My mind is nudging me to go out and socialize or go on an adventure. I might purchase this as a tech geek, but I know I would benefit more from investing the small fortune in something that maximized my social growth (i've no idea what that would be..) All in all, I guess if it was cheaper, I wouldn't evaluate this on such an intellectual/philosophical level..
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  The equivalent sum of money gets you _several_ somethings that maximise your social growth. A musical instrument and an amplifier. A competent bicycle. A squash racquet. A digital camera or a vintage camera, a kitted out darkroom and a membership to a photography club. You could do all of that for the price of Vision Pro.
  - dkonofalski 3y ago
    ...and get none of the benefits of it. This is like saying "for the price of car, you could buy 20,000 bicycles". While that's true, I'm not going to ride my bike from Texas to Disneyland.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      The point is not to get the “benefits” of a VR headset, but rather to maximise one’s chances of doing something interesting without a VR headset. I would not suggest getting all of them anyway. It’s just to observe that the opportunity cost of disappearing inside an expensive virtual device is matched by the financial cost. One gadget is the equivalent of the outlay of an entire well-funded hobby that might broaden your horizons.
      - dkonofalski 3y ago
seydor 3y ago
Most documented flop in history
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
> 1. locked down by apple's walled garden/OS (no foss, no customisation) > 2. way too expensive for an impulse purchase (for the average consumer. for example you could buy 7 Quest 3's) > 3. battery life for me, point 1 kills it. reason i would never buy it. proprietary battery connector & 1 monitor limit is a very typical apple move. i see it as another (albeit cool) vehicle for selling apps and subscriptions. neither of which i'm interested in. its really a shame that such great hardware is hobbled by apples OS.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cmiller1 3y ago
If people DO start replacing other devices for video content like their televisions with VR experiences I'm kind of excited about the implications for interior design. Imagine the living room no longer having to be TV centric.
deng 3y ago
Finally, a review that talks about that it is basically impossible to share this 3499$ device with others. This is such a glaring miss on Apple's part, I can't believe all the other reviewers simply ignored this fact.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Yeah given the 20+ sizes of light seals & possible use of prescription lenses.. this is not a device for sharing. And that's ignoring the software issues from Apples willful ignorance around user profiles/accounts on other devices in the iOS/iPad ecosystem ..
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Not to mention the pundits (and Apple) talking about re-imagining the family movie night and theater going experiences. Huh, yeah, Mom and Dad and their 2.2 kids on the couch, all plugged in to an AVP, for only $14,000 (I'll round down to 2 kids)...
- bnolsen 3y ago
  I'm not sure it's appropriate to use "apple" and "share" in the same sentence. /s It's a problem with VR in general. I have a quest 1 which actually wasn't too hard to share with my kids. The novelty did wear off after some months.
- threetonesun 3y ago
  From the company that refuses to allow for multiple user accounts on an iPad.
- tootie 3y ago
  Honestly, I believe it's very intentional. The idea is this device will be personal, like a phone or watch. Not a device you'll park in dock at home. If you have a family, they'll all need their own headset.
  - deng 3y ago
dcchambers 3y ago
This is the key part: I wrote in the productivity section of yesterday’s Article, “To put it even more strongly, the Vision Pro is, I suspect, the future of the Mac.” I’m kind of irritated at myself for not making one critical observation: the Vision Pro is the future of the Mac if Apple makes software choices that allow it to be. I’m mostly referring to the Mac’s dramatically larger degree of openness relative to other platforms like iPadOS: so many of the capabilities of a Mac are not because of its input method, but because applications and users have far fewer constraints on what they can do, and it will be difficult to replace the Mac if the same constraints that exist in iPadOS exist in visionOS. Frankly, I’m dubious Apple will allow that freedom, and I should have tempered my statement because of that. I do think that visionOS is much more compelling for productivity than the iPad is, thanks to the infinite canvas it enables, but if you have to jump through the same sort of hoops to get stuff done that you do with the iPad, well, that ability to project a Mac screen into the Vision Pro is going to be essential. If Apple seriously wants to make this the general purpose computing device of the future, it needs to be 100% as open as the Mac and other PC platforms. Locking this things down like iOS/iPad OS is going to severely limit the potential, and that makes me very sad. Of course this is Apple, and like any publicly traded company they see $$$ above all else, and they know they can make the most money by locking the device down, forcing people to use approved apps purchased only via the approved app store, and doing everything they can to prevent people from truly owning the device they bought.
- mhink 3y ago
  If I'm being completely honest, I don't think the AVP itself needs to be as open as a Mac, but I'd absolutely expect it to be able to act as a window manager for a paired Mac. It's really, really surprising that it only comes with the ability to project an entire Mac screen into VR instead of letting the user break out individual windows within the space.
gmuslera 3y ago
A big problem of AR is the other people. Google Glass wasn't so awkward looking, but it still had negative reactions from other people that could be afraid of being recorded, or information gathered from them, or apps that do something "fancy" with the people you see like mood detection, to mention something tame. We are not anymore in the internet or technology of 2014, you can put significant intelligence over what you see, and people may be afraid even of things that technology can't do yet or at least that Apple should forbid in some stage (you don't have to go as far as an AR app that shows everyone around you naked, just recognizing faces and show personal data and selected social networks information is bad enough). And that is beyond updates in hardware (at least, while it is visible that you are using it) or software.
- moogly 3y ago
  It's Apple though. They can get away with most things, feels like. If Apple released Google Glass in the exact same state Google did, things would've been different. I realize people will disagree with that, but I truly think it's not just about the cold, hard product.
  - tootie 3y ago
    Yeah, if I'm going to attempt to analyze the potential success or failure of this product, it's going to be entirely based on Apple's still indomitable brand position and less about how many nits it crams into it's microleds. The tech itself seems like at least an iteration on the predecessors. Screens are smaller and sharper and use less power and so are CPUs so I don't doubt it's at least a better Magic Leap or HoloLens. Whether or not you see people wearing these around NYC is up to their marketing team. I'm also sure the person to crash a car or get mugged because they were watching MrBeast while walking is going to get a ton of press.
mark_l_watson 3y ago
That was a fine review and telling of his experiences. I am fairly wealthy and my wife encourages me to buy any toys I want (advantages of 40+ years of marriage!), but I found it easy to resist the purchase. Do I think that in a few years Vision Pro version 2 or 3 will be a must buy? Yes, indeed! I just didn’t want to go through early product hassles. I have bought Go, Oculus 1, and Oculus 2 products. The Oculus 2 hits a sweet spot: I always use it once or twice a day now for 5 to 15 minutes to run around playing ping pong, watching live concerts for 1 or 2 minutes just to see what performers are like, etc. I should have bought an Oculus 3, probably, but for quick fun the older model is just fine. I hate to bet against Apple but Meta may win the escapist just having fun market. Two Apple products have however totally changed my life style: the Apple Watch lets me comfortably function in the world while having no other digital device with me: perfect for quick calls, messaging, checking calendar, etc. while I am out of my home. Much less intrusive to being a human being than carrying around an iPhone. The other product is the iPad, which does a little of everything, and is such a great form factor. I have an Apple Pro Display XDR monitor that pairs perfectly with a modern iPad Pro. I look forward to something like the Vision Pro in the future that revolutionizes my life like the Apple Watch and the iPad. EDIT: it is true that a good iPad Pro and an Apple Pro Display XDR together cost about $9000 and as spectacular as watching movies on this combination is, apparently the Vision Pro for $3500 is better, the iPad Pro and Pro Display XDR also have other excellent functionality.
lm28469 3y ago
The only argument for owning a vision pro is that I could do _more_ of everything I'm trying to quit or reduce, hard sell, and I doubt I'm in the minority on this one
Symmetry 3y ago
When the VisionPro first went public I wondered if I should regret pre-ordering a SimulaVR[1] but it seems like for productivity at least I probably made a good choice. We'll see when it actually arrives though. [1]https://simulavr.com/ https://simulavr.com/
- ukuina 3y ago
  Doesn't it have a 100-degree FOV?
- RockRobotRock 3y ago
  Kudos to anyone trying to develop VR on Linux, that sounds like an immense task. (I know Oculus uses Android)
steveBK123 3y ago
The MacOS virtual display limitations seems like a real achilles heel for no good reason. The technical reason is wireless bandwidth for the virtual display. But AVP isn't wireless!! You've already got a wire running down from your head to the battery pack on your waist. And from there in a real productivity setting presumably you've got the battery pack plugged into the wall. So what's the harm in having offered a TB4 input to allow multiple displays from your MacOS device? Just feels like an aesthetic "no wires / no ports" thing which is fine if not for the giant power wire!
- zhobbs 3y ago
  The latency is too high for me using the wireless Mac display on Vision Pro. Would be a lot better if we could use that wire...maybe it's possible?
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    Yes I also saw the latency complaints which is obviously another artifact of deciding to go wireless on a device that.. still has a wire!
  - lloda 3y ago
    Apple sells a wire. It's $300.
robg 3y ago
The assumption that it’s v1 and will only get better seems to miss the physics and battery limitations. Magic Leap spent billions trying to overcome the physics of seeing in high definition. How soon we forget… Moreover, are the latest iPhones or iPads really that much better than the first versions, each seems like incremental improvements, not dramatic leaps forward.
- mikeyouse 3y ago
  These two points seem related; * The assumption that it’s v1 and will only get better seems to miss the physics and battery limitations * Are the latest iPhones or iPads really that much better than the first versions Batteries are one of the few things aside from the camera and screen resolution where things are substantially and obviously better from a decade ago. The iPhone 5S was released a decade ago - it had a 1,560mah battery that weighed ~40g and got you 10 hours of video playback at 1136-by-640 resolution. The iPhone 15 Pro has a 3,300 mah battery that weighs about the same and provides over 20 hours of playback at 2556‑by‑1179 resolution. Similar improvements int he AVP's batteries would be a huge boon.
  - robg 3y ago
    Doesn’t that support my point on incrementalism? It’s a 2x gain in 10 years.
robg 3y ago
Given how long this has been in development, I’m surprised that Apple didn’t buy a studio like MGM or Paramount+CBS. If AVP is best as a consumption device, creating next generation content and especially on top of events like the Grammys and Super Bowl would accelerate adoption. Folks are raving at how Avarar looks, and Cameron has another 4 or 5 in the works.
LeonardoTolstoy 3y ago
I find it somewhat interesting that a good number of the articles about this don't seem to go into details about eye strain. I don't think I'm mistaken in thinking that even if it doesn't seem like it your eyes are going to be focused on a screen image that is what? 2 inches in from of your eyes. Given the recommendations when reading a book (which is further away although maybe not so much to matter) how does that work with something that seems to be being sold for continuous use over a 2 hour period? The FAQ from Apple does suggest breaks every 20 minutes "as you become acclimated". I don't quite know what that means for someone who, say, uses it for 2 uninterrupted hours a day to watch movies for example.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  There is no eye strain. As far as your eyes are concerned, the light is the same as if it's coming from meters away, not inches. Watching a two hour movie feels the same as doing it in a theater. And taking 20 minute breaks is really more to do with motion -- using VR makes some people feel nauseous at first because of a mismatch between what your eyes are telling you and what your body is. But that's more apparent with games. It's a non-issue if you're sitting still watching a movie. No breaks needed.
  - ericpauley 3y ago
    I'm very curious what focal length they're actually targeting here. I figured they'd put the image at infinity or even ever so slightly past, but the fact they're selling "reader" lenses for it makes me concerned that this isn't the case. Related: I've had success over the past few years purposefully correcting my computer monitor to be at ~infinity focal distance (EndMyopia method). The idea of using AVP to achieve this focal distance consistently (whereas in real life it depends on careful head placement compared to monitor) is quite tantalizing, though the lens pricing is pretty obsurd.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      It's usually around 2 m / 6 ft for most headsets. I don't think there's any reason why the AVP would be different.
PreInternet01 3y ago
OK, all the upbeat Vision Pro articles have one theme in common: "Like the original iPod or iPhone, you will first ridicule it, then realize you can't compete with it, then put one [in your pocket]." Which... is reasonable, I guess? But it does ignore two quite significant elephants in the room: 1. No, I will not put that on my face, nor accept anyone in my proximity to do so without [social] repercussions (see: Google Glass) 2. No, it does not do anything I actually want. My 4K, soon 5K, soon 8K monitor displays my movies, code, or whatever, just fine, and the fact that I can get custom overlays or whatever, while making me nauseous, just isn't that appealing? (see: anything Oculus/Meta, Microsoft, HTC, etc. have achieved so far: some subset of fans will lap their product up, but broad marketplace acceptance is... nowhere to be found?) It's quite possible that VR/AR will take over the world at some point, but right now, it more seems like 3D TV/cinema: a supply-side fad that lacks consumer acceptance.
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  Once the shiny new thing gets old, this is going to be reduced to a 3D YouTube viewer. The size is too large, and the practicality and long term vision is just not there for it to transcend into a workhorse device. "Those are air bubbles," he snapped. "That means there's space in there. Make it smaller." -Steve Jobs Strap this onto your face and enjoy the ride. -Tim Cook
- lm28469 3y ago
  > Which... is reasonable, I guess? No, it's survivor bias
pzo 3y ago
Many articles don't address visionOS limitations for 3rd party app developers. Everyone want to have a killer app but many ideas are simply not possible because: 1) there is no access to video/depthmap stream like in iPhone ARKit so it's not possible to roll your down Object Detection or ML Model or even simple QRCode scanner 2) Latency for Image Tracking seems to be around 1-2fps comparing to iPhone ARKit 3) in some WWDC videos hand tracking seems to be not as precise and also having latency 4) You cannot implement something similar like Mac Expose because iOS/iPadOS/visionOS is much more limited than MacOS 5) At least on iOS/iPad depthmap from lidar is much worse than those provided from TrueDepth (and even those got significantly worse from iPhone 14+) Overall for productivity I find some future iteration of XReal glasses more compelling and better direction: - much cheaper - very lightweight - work with connected to desktop or mobile phone - can have lower latency since connected directly with usb-c cable - can possibly have less software limitation if connected to desktop Ideally I would like to have some combination of google glasses / meta ray-ban / xreal so that you can wear it outdoor for simple HUD and AI voice control but can be connected to smartphone or laptop to provide AR experience similar like in xreal but just with better resolution.
- LZ_Khan 3y ago
  Yes.. there are way too many developer restrictions on the VisionOS. There are so many use cases regarding eyetracking + external facing cameras that are just not possible with the current dev ecosystem.
- duped 3y ago
  After about a decade of supporting 3rd party software on Apple platforms (now, against my will and advice most of the time) I think other people need to come to the realization that Apple doesn't give a shit about 3rd party developers and their ultimate goal is to block you from making anything more useful than what Apple provides as first party software. All APIs are provided begrudgingly and with a deep distrust of anyone using them and as much friction placed between developers and users.
- Agraillo 3y ago
  Not to mention the fact that due to the very high introductory price you can't appeal to the developers the same way Jobs appealed with the iPhone. Then you had at least millions of existing users to encourage writing "disposable" apps (~ 1$) because 1) there are many potential users 2) they're two clicks aways from paying. The appeal was misleading a little but at least it looked reasonable. With Vision Pro to break even for at least the following a couple of years you will have to charge much more. Funny, even "two clicks away" is a little different here as many reviews mentioned the necessity to get used to the new eyes-based system.
lukev 3y ago
After working on it for several days, I can't really disagree with anything in here. Strictly speaking, it's not better or more productive than my large double 4k monitors. But I am enjoying using it for work in a way I haven't heard reflected yet, that touches on some people's complaints about window management. Rather than surrounding myself with a "sphere of screens", I find it more pleasing to align windows with the walls of the room I'm actually in. Notes, todo lists, calendars, email, all open at the same time up against the walls of my physical room. I stand at my standing desk as usual, with my macbook display in front of me, and then I walk around to look at different things. It may not be better but it's a different, pleasant experience. Also, art is great on the VP. I put the album art of the currently playing music full size on one wall and it's actually given me a new appreciation for that.
- pie420 3y ago
  Just a little note, you can totally write things on notes in the physical world and tape them around your room. It's even quite pleasant to write on paper or chalkboard and to cross items off as they are completed.
  - lukev 3y ago
    What is the purpose of this comment?
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      Do you really not understand?
  - neogodless 3y ago
    It's almost like you're surprised that virtual reality is imitating reality.
  - TillE 3y ago
    You can't sync your paper note to your phone, your partner's phone, etc. I've seen a bunch of people baffled about why you would want to stick a note in VR space, as if it didn't also still integrate with iCloud as usual.
cheeselip420 3y ago
Its a digital headcrab, eating your attention.
amelius 3y ago
Can we try it somewhere? I feel tempted to buy one, try it and probably return it if what I read about temperature, FoV and battery life turns out to be true. Is that ok, or does anyone think that is not an ethical thing to do?
- Rolcol 3y ago
  You can schedule a demo at the Apple Store
  - amelius 3y ago
    Thanks. I'm worried though that a short demo will not give a good impression of issues like temperature and weight.
    - ChicagoBoy11 3y ago
      It won't. At the store I had no qualms about comfort, but of course taking it home I started to see what many of the reviewers were saying. I think the demo experience will very nicely showcase the major selling points of the device, and quite honestly the only way to really get at the rough edges is to spend considerable more time with it than they'd allow you to do.
- ChicagoBoy11 3y ago
  Apple's policy specifically states that you have a 14 day return policy if you are not satisfied with your product. I think if you genuinely think that, if the product reaches some realistic expectation of yours, you'd happily continue to own it and fully pay for it, then it is morally ok to buy it knowing that if it doesn't you'll return it. But if you are squarely in the "I can absolutely not afford this but it would be fun to play with it for free on their dime for a couple weeks", then I'd argue that it is morally very questionable. But, having said that, I can assure you their pricing and sales model has built in those considerations as well, so there's that perspective, too.
  - amelius 3y ago
callwhendone 3y ago
I wasn't sure about the Vision Pro until I saw how negative HackerNews was about it. I'm sure it'll be a massive success now.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- chx 3y ago
  We had no doubts before but the harm this will cause is unbelievable. At least until now you kind of sort of was forced to interact with actual human beings if you met them face to face although already the smartphone made a dent in that. Now... much less. See https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ for more. Of course, it'll be a success, everyone was in agreement openly wearing a bluetooth phone headset https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bluetooth_headset.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bluetooth_headset.jp... was basically a sure sign of the wearer being an asshole but Apple painted it white , rotated it downwards and presto! it's now trendy.
  - NoPicklez 3y ago
    Let's be honest, a Bluetooth headset like you've linked is very different to that of a pair of earphones. One was build for calls, the other is built for music and calls. The Airpods aren't just trendy, they're actually an excellent pair of earphones.
    - chx 3y ago
      Jobs is dead but the reality distortion field survived.
      - NoPicklez 3y ago
        I think you have a reality distortion geared towards Apple hate. Because Apple was totally the first to make wireless earbuds that could allow you call people. But hey, if it helps you sleep at night
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
Eh I think we are overthinking the "strategy" here. This article seems like those who "trade" stocks with intense technical charts and lines. The real reason Apple did this was they kind of had to? There is a sense that the future is something to do with AR/VR and Apple had not released a new product in a while. But the headset still has all the issues of other headsets: poor field of view, heavy on the face and expensive. I think the real signals here are that the current big tech companies have all tried and failed. The field for disruptors here are open. If anyone has a real pirate spirit and can hack together a better ar glasses with a linux os, it might just be the beginnings of the next Apple.
chx 3y ago
https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ > During the pandemic, we got a very clear picture of the incentives of the tech industry. Once many of us were isolated in our homes to avoid contracting or spreading a contagious virus, tech companies saw their revenues and profits soar as we spent much more time in front of our screens engaging with their services. Companies that were already massive with almost unimaginable valuations and earnings took it to a new level because we were so isolated from one another, and it showed just how much they’re incentivized to get us to spend more time looking at our screens. ... > I see the Vision Pro and these attempts to have us work in the metaverse or go through our lives with headsets on our faces through a similar lens. The goal of these companies is to isolate us so more of our interactions occur through the products and services they offer, instead of just living our lives and actually interacting with people throughout the course of our days instead of apps and chatbots.
- amelius 3y ago
  Also companies want eyeballs and there is no better way than a VR helmet.
oflannabhra 3y ago
FOV is determined by the distance of the screens from your eyes, which are user-specific. Lots of users have reported [0] that switching to a 21W [1] light seal, or removing the light seal altogether [2] provides a massive FOV increase. [0] - https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiuwm4/change_from_33w_to_21w_wow/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiuwm4/change_f... [1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1ai9eqc/light_seal_meaning_of_the_numbers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1ai9eqc/light_se... [2] - https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiq3si/wtf_removing_the_light_seal_and_band_turned_these/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiq3si/wtf_remo...
- nerbert 3y ago
  Why wasn't this incorporated by Apple in the original product?
  - oflannabhra 3y ago
    I have no idea. I’d imagine using a light shield increases the relative brightness of the displays, which could be important to Apple. Some users cannot use the thinnest lightshield: their eyes or eyelashes touch the lens. Apple did make them interchangeable and exchangeable (for free), so it seems like the major FOV issue is with their scanning and auto-selection (for some users).
- tootie 3y ago
  I'm pretty surprised that a product that's spent this long in development and is being released with such a high price tag would still need to be modified by users for what is arguable the most critical spec. And also I have no idea was 21W and 33W refer to so it seems unlikely the average user will have any idea.
  - oflannabhra 3y ago
    Footnote 2 explains what each number means.
skc 3y ago
I've been somewhat surprised to see that early adopters unironically venture outside with these things. That alone tells me that maybe Apple is on to something. It's their biggest bet yet and they are rarely ever wrong. Not for me though.
jsz0 3y ago
Maybe I'm just too old for this shit but I'd much rather spend $3500 on a set of excellent displays for my computer and still have money left over to buy a huge TV for entertainment purposes. Might even have enough leftover to buy an Oculus for occasional novelty use.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  This is what most people who are after functionality already realized. $3500 buys you some baller widescreen curved monitors.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    A 49WL95C-WY from LG is going to run you $1,300, new. Less if used. It's an inscrutable product name, but it's a glorious 49 inches and curved and is so much monitor. it doesn't travel at all though.
zmmmmm 3y ago
He started off talking about how Vision Pro is not an open platform like MacOS and then he focused on how his productivity use case couldn't be realised because of lack of multiple screens. But he failed to draw the link between these. Ultimately the upside of an open platform is that you can know with certainty that eventually literally any common need or deficiency it has will be addressed by the open market - if you are desperate enough you can pay and do it yourself. For example, when people didn't like Microsoft's desktop updates they created an entire alternative desktop shells. And there are now something like a dozen of these, some of which are / were commercial products. In an open platform, anything not addressed by the platform owner simply becomes a market opportunity for a third party developer. Of course, there are lots of downsides, but this is the upside. But Apple's choice here to ship VisionOS as a fork of iOS and more importantly as a completely locked down system means that his ultimate conclusion is "maybe Apple will fix this" and alludes to hints of rumours they might do it. But this is what we are reduced to - disempowered, we simply hope that our overlords will have mercy on us, their interests coincidentally aligning with ours long enough that they do what we want. Or you buy into a competitor, but this just gives you a choice of tyrannies, not actual freedom. None of this matters if you think Vision OS is a niche or a dead end. But if you actually buy into the idea that down the track this is the ultimate future of all computing, then it should be very concerning to be completely disempowered over it. I actually love the idea of a truly "spatially" aware operating system and I think eventually this is indeed where computing will go. So that is why I'm both excited by and very concerned about the direction Apple has taken.
- dkonofalski 3y ago
  Isn't that a little naive and idealistic, though? I love FOSS software as much as the next HN user but, for the vast majority of it, it only does the most basic tasks possible and, with few, rare exceptions, gets abandoned or obsoleted when the developers decide that it's not worth their time to work on it anymore. The market can't and won't solve every issue/need/deficiency that people have and, even with your example, the number of issues that every single one of those desktop replacements had dwarfed most of the benefits that using them had. For the vast majority of people that aren't tech nerds like us, the "locked down system" is preferable because it gives an incredibly consistent, polished experience for 99% of the use cases people need it for at the expense of the ability to customize it to your heart's content. It's the same situation as the loss of headphone jacks and removable batteries. Some of us care deeply about those things but, antithetically to the point you've made, the market has decided that those things are no longer important to the vast majority of people.
dangus 3y ago
The discussion is kind of a waste of time. It isn’t anywhere close to being an AR product. Tim basically already told us that this type of product would fail (mentioned in the article). It’s being released to put the project to bed, if you ask me. “Ship or go home” is what the Apple board is saying. They’ll be happy if it sells like hotcakes to cult members and they’ll be happy if it fails big time so they can finally kill the development hell that is the project. Five more years won’t fix it. Don’t believe me? Look at the Meta Quest from 5 years ago compared to the Quest 3 or the Vision Pro for that matter. It’s barely a different experience. Useful for games and videos and that’s about it. This concept can’t mess your hair and makeup up. It can’t be something that you can only use in isolation for thousands of dollars. It quite literally needs decades of technological progress that may never happen.
deleted 3y ago
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Jefferyhanson 3y ago
[flagged]
joshstrange 3y ago
Yep, pretty much the same conclusions I came to [0] in my blog posts on the AVP. It’s essentially an iPad on your face (in both weight and capability). I was happy to pay its cost if it could replace my external monitors but it’s far from being able to do that. The pass through quality could be forgiven (it’s cutting edge but still not perfect) if the Mac Virtual Display was as sharp as visionOS apps but it’s not. Again, it’s better than anything else I’ve tried but it’s not anywhere close to my 3 monitors. If Apple can continue to iterate on this and not lose interest then I can see myself buying a future version but as things stand today I’ll probably be returning mine. [0] https://joshstrange.com https://joshstrange.com

187 points by allenleee 3y ago

> One of the realities of the iPad is that, for most customers, it is a personal video player; for that particular use case the Apple Vision is superior in nearly every way. Pretty hard for me to imagine parents handing their young kids AVP instead of an ipad to watch videos, or an adult putting on AVP as they go to sleep instead of the pad on the side of the bed. Some people will prefer AVP on a plane over an ipad perhaps, but not all. Maybe teens will prefer it for casual watching, but many people will prefer something where it is less awkward to get up and pee or get a snack or interact with someone else in your house.

cramjabsyn 3y ago
The quest 3 does essentially the same at roughly 10x lower price. I say that because I think the price tag makes AVP a non starter for vast majority of families with kids. I think its out of reach price-wise even for a lot of professionals without kids tbh. But also this is the first version. The original iPhone didn't have copy/paste or the ability to shoot video. The software will continue to get refined and the hardware will get smaller. It'll eventually fit into roughly standard sized glasses and I think that's going to change everything
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  > The original iPhone didn't have copy/paste I eventually did get iPhones, but vividly remember being laughed at -- as a Mac user -- for choosing the little white HTC Magic with a trackball because I prioritised the idea of actually being able to edit text (which we now do on iPhones with a force-touch gesture not much more elegant than that trackball and lacking some of its nuance.)
- kshacker 3y ago
  There have to be limits to miniaturization. I have seen the industry evolve from 8088 chips to now; and what we have now was likely unimaginable then; but aren't we going to run into limits eventually? When I look at my Apple Watch, even that feels too big (thick) to me, so thinning AVP is quite far off IMO. On the other hand, all the research to make things thin will finally pay off when it happens. If Vision Pro can go half its weight and double the battery (even if detached like now), that will probably be the point when it becomes a serious platform.
- mrcwinn 3y ago
  I own a Quest 3 and on day three of AVP. I can assure you, the difference in quality - and therefore movie-watching experience - is night and day between these devices. Watching a movie in AVP is outstanding. This device doesn't shine in all cases, but it shines there. It's like saying, "Sure, Ferarris are cool, but my VW can also drive to the track." (No shade thrown to VWs. Love the boxy, 90s-era Jetta.) Usual disclaimers: Is it for everyone? Probably not. Is it expensive? Very. Is it perfect? No. "Essentially the same?" Not at all.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    There's no difference in detail for 1080p content. There absolutely is for 4K content though. If you're happy with 1080p the Quest is perfectly fine. Not for the AR experience of a screen in your living room, but for a VR experience watching a floating screen in space.
  - cramjabsyn 3y ago
    Yeah the VW/Ferrari analogy is good, because as two cars they do essentially the same thing. Also I think the group of people who are shelling out $4k for the AVR are going to be heavily biased to justify the expense. I don't think there's a $3000 difference between the two devices. Maybe $500.
    - FumblingBear 3y ago
      Fundamentally though, that's just the nature of diminishing returns. Of course the value proposition for the Quest 3 is far better than the value prop of the Vision Pro. It's no different than consumer GPU's. There will be enthusiasts who purchase the GTX 4090 for $2000 but the average consumer is far better off buying something like a 3060Ti for $340. My favorite example of this is a site called Logical Increments [0] that clearly shows just how expensive pushing to the next tier of quality is as you scale up. [0] - https://www.logicalincrements.com/ https://www.logicalincrements.com/
      - hackeraccount 3y ago
- deepGem 3y ago
  There is a counter argument to this - the iPhone shape did not change, the shape evolved. Apple is never known to change shapes or geometry, they evolve from the same geometric construct. The AVP fitting into standard sized glasses like swim goggles is a possibility but it'll be more like Cyclops visors. I am not sure if it will ever achieve a Rayban form factor.
  - smileson2 3y ago
    [dead]
- m3kw9 3y ago
  A card board home also can be argued to do essentially what house does. Please do not write such arguments
- jsbisviewtiful 3y ago
  > I think the price tag makes AVP a non starter for vast majority of families with kids. I don't have kids and the price is still outlandish for my household of well-earners. I would never pay more than $2k for this.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    I think it’s that and also more than that. For example I would like, and could reasonably afford, a decent technical camera rig and a 45mp+ digital mirrorless camera to go on the back of it. I know how to use it properly to get value from it. The outlay for this is more than the Vision Pro by a small margin. But there are many things I probably should spend that money on before that. The Vision Pro, as amusing as it surely is, is way, way down the road beyond even that purchase. Having the money to spend on something — whether a personal or business expense - means engaging with the opportunity cost of spending the money. And even if you comfortably have the money, you still question the value. What is going on right now is a lot of people have a Vision Pro on fifteen day approval and they are all feverishly writing blog posts and tweets to explore every possible way that they could get other people to validate their impulse purchase. Because that’s what it is. Unless you’re going to build an app for it —- go all-in on that ecosystem —- it’s a weird thing to prioritise spending $3500 on.
- GeekyBear 3y ago
  > The quest 3 does essentially the same at roughly 10x lower price. Only if you claim that having "a screen" is the only metric that counts. > Apple is very proud of the displays inside the Vision Pro, and for good reason — they represent a huge leap forward in display technology... They also look generally incredible — sharp enough to read text on without even thinking about it... The displays are the main reason the Vision Pro is so expensive — they’re at the heart of the Vision Pro experience and what makes the whole thing work. You are always looking at them, after all. https://www.theverge.com/24054862/apple-vision-pro-review-vr-ar-headset-features-price https://www.theverge.com/24054862/apple-vision-pro-review-vr...
brk 3y ago
I agree, for whatever it's worth. There is already a social stigma around people being focused on their phones/screens, and the disconnect it creates with people around you. But that disconnect is somewhat virtual in that the phone is absorbing your attention, but it's not a physical barrier. These AR glasses all, by design, create a very real physical barrier between the wearer and their surroundings. It also doesn't help that they look goofy, and sometimes slightly creepy. I think this creates a much bigger barrier to widespread adoption, it is a much larger conscious decision by a user to wear an AR kit. You can't just glance at it and get sucked into the content stream, it is a very distinct process to put it on/take it off. I've been intrigued by the Apple Vision, and other AR devices, but it still feels like there isn't a breakthrough moment for them.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I'm already not a huge fan of wearing something like noise canceling earpods out in public. I couldn't imagine wearing goggles isolating me from what's going on. But I realize a lot of people don't care.
  - Lio 3y ago
    I love noise cancelling headphones in public. Many shops, cafes and restaurants insist on playing music I really hate. Certain types of popular music make my skin crawl. My favourite tech product of recent years has been effective noise cancelling headphones I can keep in my pocket to block that out.
- j4yav 3y ago
  Slightly creepy? It looks like someone wired their whole face directly to the internet dopamine tap and turned it to eleven.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    Oh hush. You can still see their "eyes" [0]. What are you complaining about? ;-) [0] not much better than the creepy face-screens in Jamin Winans' amazing low-budget movie, Ink
cmiller1 3y ago
> less awkward to get up and pee Arguable, imagine getting up to pee and not interrupting your movie at all.
- furyofantares 3y ago
  More succinctly, here's my point: Maybe AVP is a better personal video player for people who are very into optimizing the experience of the content they're consuming. But almost every use of an ipad as a personal video player that I can think of isn't that.
- wcrossbow 3y ago
  Maybe for the ladies or the men that pee sitting down, if they manage to make their way to the toilet without rolling down a flight of stairs. However, if I try to pee with one of this on my wife will not appreciate it.
  - __egb__ 3y ago
    What if there were an app that could overlay a calculated stream trajectory over the view of the toilet, showing you exactly where and how to stand to minimize urination errors. The name of the app could be Piss Optimal Flow Flight, or Piss OFF.
    - cozzyd 3y ago
      Gamifying stand-up urination is probably the best use case for AR I've heard
    - dvngnt_ 3y ago
      not if there's a split steam
  - shwaj 3y ago
    Let's hear it for the sitzpinklers!
  - Yizahi 3y ago
shusaku 3y ago
To be fair, it was pretty hard for me to imagine parents handing their young kids an iPad.
saagarjha 3y ago
Apple Vision Pro is heavy and inconvenient to use. It has glare and poor FoV. It gets hot and has a short battery life. There are plenty of reasons why you might not want to use it, even if it is actually pretty nice for watching movies.
- mvkel 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    I'm replying to you from one :)
    - mvkel 3y ago
      Pwned. Rereading your comment, I apologize. You were citing the most common "cons" of it, which are totally valid reasons not to buy one. AND it's still the best VR experience we've got :)
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        I agree!
- ramesh31 3y ago
  >It has glare and poor FoV. It gets hot and has a short battery life. FOV is the most unforgivable. I can't for the life of me imagine who is deciding that 110 is sufficient. I would give up just about every single other specification in a headset for 180°+, and I have owned just about every consumer headset released since DK2.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    > I would give up just about every single other specification in a headset for 180+. I'm having a very difficult time imagining how that would be physically possible. I'm actually curious what the highest theoretically possible FOV is for a conveniently sized device strapped to your face, and how close we are to it already.
justapassenger 3y ago
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mithr 3y ago
The biggest drawback for me is that AVP only works if you're watching things alone. You can easily watch an iPad with your SO, with your kid, with your friends — and AVP may be a better experience, but only for you alone. It may be amazing on a plane, but even then only when you're traveling by yourself.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  Nit: you can group watch things with people who are remote. My friends have done this thing since the pandemic where we pick a show and all watch it from our own homes but while on a Discord voice call, and it just got a whole lot nicer to do this since last week ;)
duxup 3y ago
Yup, my ability to quickly monitor what my kids are up to is a big deal to me. Putting on a headset, software options for monitoring, they're just not as quick, detailed, or convenient.
tim333 3y ago
I watch a fair bit of video and have no great desire for some heavy mask thing on my face. The laptop works fine for casual viewing.
wilg 3y ago
Also, iPads are worse personal video players than laptops. You wouldn't buy a personal video player with a 4:3 screen. Plus it doesn't stand up on its own so you can't set it on a surface to watch. You could reassemble it into a laptop if you want, but you'd be better off just with the laptop.

condiment 3y ago

Reading this article, it's nice to see I'm not alone in my thinking about the vision pro. Ignoring the remarks on entertainment (it's excellent!), I've believed for several years now that VR headsets are going to replace computer monitors, and the vision pro is a step in the right direction. But a 1:1 monitor projection from my macbook is not quite enough of a benefit to merit the drawbacks of the headset. And it turns out that all of the business software I use is highly interactive, so very little, if anything at all, can be run as a separate native vision pro app. Teams? I'm not using a persona in a professional setting. Also MSFT's implementation has really low information density. Slack? I need to be able to copy and paste, and the ipad compatibility app stinks. Outlook? Again, the ipad compatibility app is no good. Excel? Give me a break. I had tried the browser first, but it turns out that I have keyboard workflows that are very efficient, and requiring my gaze to shift is no good. To add to it, the gaze tracking highlights controls all over the app when I'm just trying to type, and if I glance at another window for reference, shifts my keyboard and mouse attention. Multiple monitors projected from a real computer really would be ideal here.

no_wizard 3y ago
one wonders if there is a current niche that could be filled where they have the excellent high fidelity screen of the Vision Pro but without the hand tracking, effectively making it a monitor HUB and optimized for that, but you can still use a mouse and keyboard in addition to some head tracking, but no hand gestures, as it were. Have it entirely driven (experience wise) by the external compute.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  I’d love to have portable multiple monitors. However, I’m not sure if that works with a MacBook Air, not sure how well it works, and not sure if I can still control my keyboard/trackpad. I don’t want to lift my arms/touch when editing text. A virtual machine or performant screensharing would work, but I haven’t experienced a good solution yet, so I don’t think it’ll be any better with the Vision Pro Everything under the condition there’s no eye and neck strain

sschueller 3y ago

Ipod was USD 399.- in 2001 (USD 686.- Today) and the Rio was USD 250.- in 1998 (USD 467.- Today). USD 3499 still seems way up there even for today.

charcircuit 3y ago
Today the iPhone is $800 and offers tremendous user value. It's hard for a new device to compete against that.
- duxup 3y ago
  The longevity, power, flexibility offered by computing devices today is amazing.
ghaff 3y ago
And it wasn't really out of line with things like a Walkman or other music-related devices that mainstream consumers were already buying.
wpm 3y ago
Do the original Mac

oldpersonintx 3y ago

[dead]

RankingMember 3y ago

[flagged]

j4yav 3y ago
It's not a very good summary. Just give reading it a chance - it's not too bad.
- RankingMember 3y ago
  I read it, but found it a bit long-winded and felt others might feel the same. Maybe not!

HumblyTossed 3y ago

It's interesting seeing so many of these takes on AVP. So many people imagined how they'd use it when it came out. Now that it's out, they're realizing that reality doesn't meet their imagination. Not that AVP is bad or that it doesn't work correctly, it just doesn't do some of the things people expected it to or it has more limitations than they expected. Which, to me is odd why they would think this because this is an Apple product. You will only ever be able to use it the way Apple wants you to use it. If it doesn't fit your imagined use case, Apple expects you to adapt.

zhobbs 3y ago
I think it's just a function of the Apple marketing overselling the passthrough quality and productivity use cases.
- querulous 3y ago
  the passthrough quality is a real letdown given the marketing. it's like looking at everything through a grimy, unwashed window i never expected it to be good as a productivity device because my own experience is while screen real estate is nice what really matters is the ergonomics of your work space and wearing a pair of ski goggles is never going to be ergonomic
  - noahtallen 3y ago
    Opinions are mixed the passthrough quality: https://youtu.be/UvkgmyfMPks?si=ElAWNbsyEN6t_wmP https://youtu.be/UvkgmyfMPks?si=ElAWNbsyEN6t_wmP
ActorNightly 3y ago
>Now that it's out, they're realizing that reality doesn't meet their imagination. Pretty much another iteration of cycle of VR adopters. Many of us went through this with original devices.

flerchin 3y ago

It's a solution in search of a problem. Everyone says "this is first gen, and it will only get better." I don't think that's right. "this is first gen, and it will only get cheaper." is more like it. Walking around without peripheral vision in order to be able to watch YouTube in the train station is not worth any amount of money.

danans 3y ago
> Walking around without peripheral vision in order to be able to watch YouTube in the train station is not worth any amount of money. I'm more worried about people trying to drive with this thing on.
- unsignedint 3y ago
  Indeed, I'm quite convinced that individuals have attempted to drive while using their Quest 3, and it wouldn't surprise me if some have been pulled over for such actions. It seems likely that at least one person has taken this reckless behavior to an extreme. Apple products typically enjoy widespread popularity, though the Vision Pro appears to cater to a somewhat limited demographic that is serious enough to make the purchase. There are numerous instances of people confidently wearing these devices in public. Among the footage I've encountered, one particular video caught my attention, showing someone using a Vision Pro while driving a Tesla and getting pulled over, though I'm unsure about the video's authenticity.
  - mmarquezs 3y ago
    There is already a video of a driver using the Apple Vision on a Tesla Cybertruck which I assume was on auto pilot I guess.
    - unsignedint 3y ago
      It's likely the same video I've seen. Regardless of Auto Pilot, engaging in such behavior is still reckless and ill-advised.

peteforde 3y ago

This article addresses the MacOS vs visionOS thing, but doesn't go hard enough. It is incredibly frustrating that Apple seems determined to serve this up as kid gloves experience vs a general purpose computing device with direct access to a real file system and ultimately a shell prompt. I am not in love with how Meta has locked down the Quest but at least there is a thriving sideload app ecosystem. That is, at least there is a way to load up the media player of your choice and watch porn. Look, I get that corporate America is strangled by puritan values from the payment processing networks on up, but it is arrogant and willful ignorance to pretend that adult content consumption is not a major part of the VR/MR story. You want to know what the people who actually use VR the most do with their headsets most of the time? VRChat and SexLikeReal, which is the PornHub of VR if you don't know. Steve Jobs was a dude who loved to talk about doing LSD but in his later years, he became awkwardly fixated on preventing people from using Apple devices for the stuff most real people do. He's been gone a long time. It'll be a shame if their vision for spatial blah blah is sanitized and safe for work, even after dark.

TIPSIO 3y ago
Apple is trying to mainstream and normalize strapping a giant computer and camera to your face in everyday life. I think having it watered down will actually push the dream of wearable computers for common use by making people feel less uneasy around it.
- peteforde 3y ago
  Could you explain further? General purpose computing directly implies that each user is free to do what they want with it, just like the MacBook Pro they bought from the same company. The world would be a lot more awesome if people weren't entitled to feel "uneasy" about what people they will never meet are doing legally in the privacy of their own homes.
  - rusticpenn 3y ago
    Removing any association with users as perverts. Google made that mistake with glass…

bemusedthrow75 3y ago

The "mea culpa, I have been part of over-egging a pre-launch product based on being blessed with privileged access to an extremely limited guided walkthrough and I lost all objectivity" shuffle. And that bit about a VR headset being better than an iPad for a personal video player is some seriously optimistic, overextended thinking. Is wearing half a kilo of electronics with a two hour battery life on your head really superior to a smaller screen with all-day battery life that you can put away at a moment's notice? (Even ignoring that video content often has more than two hours of runtime.)

softirq 3y ago
Yes it is. Watching a 3D movie on an entire wall in bed next to my spouse is mind blowing.
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  You'll have to file me under a) doesn't watch films or use internet gadgets in bed, especially to the exclusion of someone else b) would at any rate choose a film my partner wanted to watch too c) ignoring the above, would probably buy the cheapest VR headset that offered a virtual theatre good enough
  - jasonjmcghee 3y ago
    (My experience with watching movies on VR headsets- haven’t tried newest generation) Have you ever watched a CAM version of a movie? I feel like this kind of activity peaked in late 2000s… That’s what it felt like watching a movie in VR to me. (In my experience with non-luxury headsets) It’s worse picture quality than my phone. For me, watching a movie in 4K on a TV is very very different than the equivalent of ~< 720p, blurry mess with giant god rays. If AVP can deliver on what people describe, it’s compelling. Still probably won’t buy one though
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      This is not true at all. You get full 1080p detail on a Quest, with excellent color and contrast. The AVP gets you to around 4K detail. It is nothing at all like CAM. Not in color and not in resolution. It doesn't even make sense to say that because the display specs for these devices are well known. God rays aren't really a problem watching TV content because they're most prevalent at the edges of the display, but you place your virtual screen in the middle. So they're basically a non-issue. (And TV's can have glare problems of their own if you're not watching them in the dark.)

darrenf 3y ago

I haven't read every review of the AVP, but I've read a few (not skim-read) - this, the Verge, Gruber, some others - and while everyone waxes lyrical about the movie watching experience, I haven't noticed a single comment about whether you can actually have a drink while doing so. I can't easily drink from a glass/can with a Quest 3 on my face. Would I be able to with an AVP?

jlintz 3y ago
Use a straw
saagarjha 3y ago
I find it to be pretty easy; some friends said they had trouble though. You can't see what you're drinking once you bring it close to your mouth, though.
ghaff 3y ago
A broader way to put it is whether people really want a completely immersive experience for most purposes. I mostly don't.
filoleg 3y ago
Drank a can of beer while wearing AVP this past weekend. No issues whatsoever, the device profile isn’t obtrusive enough to interfere. I was struggling to do that with Meta Quest 2 before tho, as the shape of it on my face ends up hitting the top of the can sometimes, and it is just straight up not the best experience. For that case, yeah, a straw would help.
wilsonnb3 3y ago
lots of comments on the vision pro subreddit are saying that a straw is somewhere between very helpful and essential.
astrange 3y ago
It's not a problem (depending on cup shape), but having anything very close to the camera breaks the passthrough illusion and can be uncomfortable.

kungfupawnda 3y ago

I have the disposable income but I already feel so alienated from the world as a software engineer. Especially post-covid. My mind is nudging me to go out and socialize or go on an adventure. I might purchase this as a tech geek, but I know I would benefit more from investing the small fortune in something that maximized my social growth (i've no idea what that would be..) All in all, I guess if it was cheaper, I wouldn't evaluate this on such an intellectual/philosophical level..

deleted 3y ago
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bemusedthrow75 3y ago
The equivalent sum of money gets you _several_ somethings that maximise your social growth. A musical instrument and an amplifier. A competent bicycle. A squash racquet. A digital camera or a vintage camera, a kitted out darkroom and a membership to a photography club. You could do all of that for the price of Vision Pro.
- dkonofalski 3y ago
  ...and get none of the benefits of it. This is like saying "for the price of car, you could buy 20,000 bicycles". While that's true, I'm not going to ride my bike from Texas to Disneyland.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    The point is not to get the “benefits” of a VR headset, but rather to maximise one’s chances of doing something interesting without a VR headset. I would not suggest getting all of them anyway. It’s just to observe that the opportunity cost of disappearing inside an expensive virtual device is matched by the financial cost. One gadget is the equivalent of the outlay of an entire well-funded hobby that might broaden your horizons.
    - dkonofalski 3y ago

seydor 3y ago

Most documented flop in history

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

> 1. locked down by apple's walled garden/OS (no foss, no customisation) > 2. way too expensive for an impulse purchase (for the average consumer. for example you could buy 7 Quest 3's) > 3. battery life for me, point 1 kills it. reason i would never buy it. proprietary battery connector & 1 monitor limit is a very typical apple move. i see it as another (albeit cool) vehicle for selling apps and subscriptions. neither of which i'm interested in. its really a shame that such great hardware is hobbled by apples OS.

deleted 3y ago

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cmiller1 3y ago

If people DO start replacing other devices for video content like their televisions with VR experiences I'm kind of excited about the implications for interior design. Imagine the living room no longer having to be TV centric.

deng 3y ago

Finally, a review that talks about that it is basically impossible to share this 3499$ device with others. This is such a glaring miss on Apple's part, I can't believe all the other reviewers simply ignored this fact.

steveBK123 3y ago
Yeah given the 20+ sizes of light seals & possible use of prescription lenses.. this is not a device for sharing. And that's ignoring the software issues from Apples willful ignorance around user profiles/accounts on other devices in the iOS/iPad ecosystem ..
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Not to mention the pundits (and Apple) talking about re-imagining the family movie night and theater going experiences. Huh, yeah, Mom and Dad and their 2.2 kids on the couch, all plugged in to an AVP, for only $14,000 (I'll round down to 2 kids)...
bnolsen 3y ago
I'm not sure it's appropriate to use "apple" and "share" in the same sentence. /s It's a problem with VR in general. I have a quest 1 which actually wasn't too hard to share with my kids. The novelty did wear off after some months.
threetonesun 3y ago
From the company that refuses to allow for multiple user accounts on an iPad.
tootie 3y ago
Honestly, I believe it's very intentional. The idea is this device will be personal, like a phone or watch. Not a device you'll park in dock at home. If you have a family, they'll all need their own headset.
- deng 3y ago

dcchambers 3y ago

This is the key part: I wrote in the productivity section of yesterday’s Article, “To put it even more strongly, the Vision Pro is, I suspect, the future of the Mac.” I’m kind of irritated at myself for not making one critical observation: the Vision Pro is the future of the Mac if Apple makes software choices that allow it to be. I’m mostly referring to the Mac’s dramatically larger degree of openness relative to other platforms like iPadOS: so many of the capabilities of a Mac are not because of its input method, but because applications and users have far fewer constraints on what they can do, and it will be difficult to replace the Mac if the same constraints that exist in iPadOS exist in visionOS. Frankly, I’m dubious Apple will allow that freedom, and I should have tempered my statement because of that. I do think that visionOS is much more compelling for productivity than the iPad is, thanks to the infinite canvas it enables, but if you have to jump through the same sort of hoops to get stuff done that you do with the iPad, well, that ability to project a Mac screen into the Vision Pro is going to be essential. If Apple seriously wants to make this the general purpose computing device of the future, it needs to be 100% as open as the Mac and other PC platforms. Locking this things down like iOS/iPad OS is going to severely limit the potential, and that makes me very sad. Of course this is Apple, and like any publicly traded company they see $$$ above all else, and they know they can make the most money by locking the device down, forcing people to use approved apps purchased only via the approved app store, and doing everything they can to prevent people from truly owning the device they bought.

mhink 3y ago
If I'm being completely honest, I don't think the AVP itself needs to be as open as a Mac, but I'd absolutely expect it to be able to act as a window manager for a paired Mac. It's really, really surprising that it only comes with the ability to project an entire Mac screen into VR instead of letting the user break out individual windows within the space.

gmuslera 3y ago

A big problem of AR is the other people. Google Glass wasn't so awkward looking, but it still had negative reactions from other people that could be afraid of being recorded, or information gathered from them, or apps that do something "fancy" with the people you see like mood detection, to mention something tame. We are not anymore in the internet or technology of 2014, you can put significant intelligence over what you see, and people may be afraid even of things that technology can't do yet or at least that Apple should forbid in some stage (you don't have to go as far as an AR app that shows everyone around you naked, just recognizing faces and show personal data and selected social networks information is bad enough). And that is beyond updates in hardware (at least, while it is visible that you are using it) or software.

moogly 3y ago
It's Apple though. They can get away with most things, feels like. If Apple released Google Glass in the exact same state Google did, things would've been different. I realize people will disagree with that, but I truly think it's not just about the cold, hard product.
- tootie 3y ago
  Yeah, if I'm going to attempt to analyze the potential success or failure of this product, it's going to be entirely based on Apple's still indomitable brand position and less about how many nits it crams into it's microleds. The tech itself seems like at least an iteration on the predecessors. Screens are smaller and sharper and use less power and so are CPUs so I don't doubt it's at least a better Magic Leap or HoloLens. Whether or not you see people wearing these around NYC is up to their marketing team. I'm also sure the person to crash a car or get mugged because they were watching MrBeast while walking is going to get a ton of press.

mark_l_watson 3y ago

That was a fine review and telling of his experiences. I am fairly wealthy and my wife encourages me to buy any toys I want (advantages of 40+ years of marriage!), but I found it easy to resist the purchase. Do I think that in a few years Vision Pro version 2 or 3 will be a must buy? Yes, indeed! I just didn’t want to go through early product hassles. I have bought Go, Oculus 1, and Oculus 2 products. The Oculus 2 hits a sweet spot: I always use it once or twice a day now for 5 to 15 minutes to run around playing ping pong, watching live concerts for 1 or 2 minutes just to see what performers are like, etc. I should have bought an Oculus 3, probably, but for quick fun the older model is just fine. I hate to bet against Apple but Meta may win the escapist just having fun market. Two Apple products have however totally changed my life style: the Apple Watch lets me comfortably function in the world while having no other digital device with me: perfect for quick calls, messaging, checking calendar, etc. while I am out of my home. Much less intrusive to being a human being than carrying around an iPhone. The other product is the iPad, which does a little of everything, and is such a great form factor. I have an Apple Pro Display XDR monitor that pairs perfectly with a modern iPad Pro. I look forward to something like the Vision Pro in the future that revolutionizes my life like the Apple Watch and the iPad. EDIT: it is true that a good iPad Pro and an Apple Pro Display XDR together cost about $9000 and as spectacular as watching movies on this combination is, apparently the Vision Pro for $3500 is better, the iPad Pro and Pro Display XDR also have other excellent functionality.

lm28469 3y ago

The only argument for owning a vision pro is that I could do _more_ of everything I'm trying to quit or reduce, hard sell, and I doubt I'm in the minority on this one

Symmetry 3y ago

When the VisionPro first went public I wondered if I should regret pre-ordering a SimulaVR[1] but it seems like for productivity at least I probably made a good choice. We'll see when it actually arrives though. [1]https://simulavr.com/ https://simulavr.com/

ukuina 3y ago
Doesn't it have a 100-degree FOV?
RockRobotRock 3y ago
Kudos to anyone trying to develop VR on Linux, that sounds like an immense task. (I know Oculus uses Android)

steveBK123 3y ago

The MacOS virtual display limitations seems like a real achilles heel for no good reason. The technical reason is wireless bandwidth for the virtual display. But AVP isn't wireless!! You've already got a wire running down from your head to the battery pack on your waist. And from there in a real productivity setting presumably you've got the battery pack plugged into the wall. So what's the harm in having offered a TB4 input to allow multiple displays from your MacOS device? Just feels like an aesthetic "no wires / no ports" thing which is fine if not for the giant power wire!

zhobbs 3y ago
The latency is too high for me using the wireless Mac display on Vision Pro. Would be a lot better if we could use that wire...maybe it's possible?
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Yes I also saw the latency complaints which is obviously another artifact of deciding to go wireless on a device that.. still has a wire!
- lloda 3y ago
  Apple sells a wire. It's $300.

robg 3y ago

The assumption that it’s v1 and will only get better seems to miss the physics and battery limitations. Magic Leap spent billions trying to overcome the physics of seeing in high definition. How soon we forget… Moreover, are the latest iPhones or iPads really that much better than the first versions, each seems like incremental improvements, not dramatic leaps forward.

mikeyouse 3y ago
These two points seem related; * The assumption that it’s v1 and will only get better seems to miss the physics and battery limitations * Are the latest iPhones or iPads really that much better than the first versions Batteries are one of the few things aside from the camera and screen resolution where things are substantially and obviously better from a decade ago. The iPhone 5S was released a decade ago - it had a 1,560mah battery that weighed ~40g and got you 10 hours of video playback at 1136-by-640 resolution. The iPhone 15 Pro has a 3,300 mah battery that weighs about the same and provides over 20 hours of playback at 2556‑by‑1179 resolution. Similar improvements int he AVP's batteries would be a huge boon.
- robg 3y ago
  Doesn’t that support my point on incrementalism? It’s a 2x gain in 10 years.

robg 3y ago

Given how long this has been in development, I’m surprised that Apple didn’t buy a studio like MGM or Paramount+CBS. If AVP is best as a consumption device, creating next generation content and especially on top of events like the Grammys and Super Bowl would accelerate adoption. Folks are raving at how Avarar looks, and Cameron has another 4 or 5 in the works.

LeonardoTolstoy 3y ago

I find it somewhat interesting that a good number of the articles about this don't seem to go into details about eye strain. I don't think I'm mistaken in thinking that even if it doesn't seem like it your eyes are going to be focused on a screen image that is what? 2 inches in from of your eyes. Given the recommendations when reading a book (which is further away although maybe not so much to matter) how does that work with something that seems to be being sold for continuous use over a 2 hour period? The FAQ from Apple does suggest breaks every 20 minutes "as you become acclimated". I don't quite know what that means for someone who, say, uses it for 2 uninterrupted hours a day to watch movies for example.

crazygringo 3y ago
There is no eye strain. As far as your eyes are concerned, the light is the same as if it's coming from meters away, not inches. Watching a two hour movie feels the same as doing it in a theater. And taking 20 minute breaks is really more to do with motion -- using VR makes some people feel nauseous at first because of a mismatch between what your eyes are telling you and what your body is. But that's more apparent with games. It's a non-issue if you're sitting still watching a movie. No breaks needed.
- ericpauley 3y ago
  I'm very curious what focal length they're actually targeting here. I figured they'd put the image at infinity or even ever so slightly past, but the fact they're selling "reader" lenses for it makes me concerned that this isn't the case. Related: I've had success over the past few years purposefully correcting my computer monitor to be at ~infinity focal distance (EndMyopia method). The idea of using AVP to achieve this focal distance consistently (whereas in real life it depends on careful head placement compared to monitor) is quite tantalizing, though the lens pricing is pretty obsurd.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    It's usually around 2 m / 6 ft for most headsets. I don't think there's any reason why the AVP would be different.

PreInternet01 3y ago

OK, all the upbeat Vision Pro articles have one theme in common: "Like the original iPod or iPhone, you will first ridicule it, then realize you can't compete with it, then put one [in your pocket]." Which... is reasonable, I guess? But it does ignore two quite significant elephants in the room: 1. No, I will not put that on my face, nor accept anyone in my proximity to do so without [social] repercussions (see: Google Glass) 2. No, it does not do anything I actually want. My 4K, soon 5K, soon 8K monitor displays my movies, code, or whatever, just fine, and the fact that I can get custom overlays or whatever, while making me nauseous, just isn't that appealing? (see: anything Oculus/Meta, Microsoft, HTC, etc. have achieved so far: some subset of fans will lap their product up, but broad marketplace acceptance is... nowhere to be found?) It's quite possible that VR/AR will take over the world at some point, but right now, it more seems like 3D TV/cinema: a supply-side fad that lacks consumer acceptance.

1970-01-01 3y ago
Once the shiny new thing gets old, this is going to be reduced to a 3D YouTube viewer. The size is too large, and the practicality and long term vision is just not there for it to transcend into a workhorse device. "Those are air bubbles," he snapped. "That means there's space in there. Make it smaller." -Steve Jobs Strap this onto your face and enjoy the ride. -Tim Cook
lm28469 3y ago
> Which... is reasonable, I guess? No, it's survivor bias

pzo 3y ago

Many articles don't address visionOS limitations for 3rd party app developers. Everyone want to have a killer app but many ideas are simply not possible because: 1) there is no access to video/depthmap stream like in iPhone ARKit so it's not possible to roll your down Object Detection or ML Model or even simple QRCode scanner 2) Latency for Image Tracking seems to be around 1-2fps comparing to iPhone ARKit 3) in some WWDC videos hand tracking seems to be not as precise and also having latency 4) You cannot implement something similar like Mac Expose because iOS/iPadOS/visionOS is much more limited than MacOS 5) At least on iOS/iPad depthmap from lidar is much worse than those provided from TrueDepth (and even those got significantly worse from iPhone 14+) Overall for productivity I find some future iteration of XReal glasses more compelling and better direction: - much cheaper - very lightweight - work with connected to desktop or mobile phone - can have lower latency since connected directly with usb-c cable - can possibly have less software limitation if connected to desktop Ideally I would like to have some combination of google glasses / meta ray-ban / xreal so that you can wear it outdoor for simple HUD and AI voice control but can be connected to smartphone or laptop to provide AR experience similar like in xreal but just with better resolution.

LZ_Khan 3y ago
Yes.. there are way too many developer restrictions on the VisionOS. There are so many use cases regarding eyetracking + external facing cameras that are just not possible with the current dev ecosystem.
duped 3y ago
After about a decade of supporting 3rd party software on Apple platforms (now, against my will and advice most of the time) I think other people need to come to the realization that Apple doesn't give a shit about 3rd party developers and their ultimate goal is to block you from making anything more useful than what Apple provides as first party software. All APIs are provided begrudgingly and with a deep distrust of anyone using them and as much friction placed between developers and users.
Agraillo 3y ago
Not to mention the fact that due to the very high introductory price you can't appeal to the developers the same way Jobs appealed with the iPhone. Then you had at least millions of existing users to encourage writing "disposable" apps (~ 1$) because 1) there are many potential users 2) they're two clicks aways from paying. The appeal was misleading a little but at least it looked reasonable. With Vision Pro to break even for at least the following a couple of years you will have to charge much more. Funny, even "two clicks away" is a little different here as many reviews mentioned the necessity to get used to the new eyes-based system.

lukev 3y ago

After working on it for several days, I can't really disagree with anything in here. Strictly speaking, it's not better or more productive than my large double 4k monitors. But I am enjoying using it for work in a way I haven't heard reflected yet, that touches on some people's complaints about window management. Rather than surrounding myself with a "sphere of screens", I find it more pleasing to align windows with the walls of the room I'm actually in. Notes, todo lists, calendars, email, all open at the same time up against the walls of my physical room. I stand at my standing desk as usual, with my macbook display in front of me, and then I walk around to look at different things. It may not be better but it's a different, pleasant experience. Also, art is great on the VP. I put the album art of the currently playing music full size on one wall and it's actually given me a new appreciation for that.

pie420 3y ago
Just a little note, you can totally write things on notes in the physical world and tape them around your room. It's even quite pleasant to write on paper or chalkboard and to cross items off as they are completed.
- lukev 3y ago
  What is the purpose of this comment?
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    Do you really not understand?
- neogodless 3y ago
  It's almost like you're surprised that virtual reality is imitating reality.
- TillE 3y ago
  You can't sync your paper note to your phone, your partner's phone, etc. I've seen a bunch of people baffled about why you would want to stick a note in VR space, as if it didn't also still integrate with iCloud as usual.

cheeselip420 3y ago

Its a digital headcrab, eating your attention.

amelius 3y ago

Can we try it somewhere? I feel tempted to buy one, try it and probably return it if what I read about temperature, FoV and battery life turns out to be true. Is that ok, or does anyone think that is not an ethical thing to do?

Rolcol 3y ago
You can schedule a demo at the Apple Store
- amelius 3y ago
  Thanks. I'm worried though that a short demo will not give a good impression of issues like temperature and weight.
  - ChicagoBoy11 3y ago
    It won't. At the store I had no qualms about comfort, but of course taking it home I started to see what many of the reviewers were saying. I think the demo experience will very nicely showcase the major selling points of the device, and quite honestly the only way to really get at the rough edges is to spend considerable more time with it than they'd allow you to do.
ChicagoBoy11 3y ago
Apple's policy specifically states that you have a 14 day return policy if you are not satisfied with your product. I think if you genuinely think that, if the product reaches some realistic expectation of yours, you'd happily continue to own it and fully pay for it, then it is morally ok to buy it knowing that if it doesn't you'll return it. But if you are squarely in the "I can absolutely not afford this but it would be fun to play with it for free on their dime for a couple weeks", then I'd argue that it is morally very questionable. But, having said that, I can assure you their pricing and sales model has built in those considerations as well, so there's that perspective, too.
- amelius 3y ago

callwhendone 3y ago

I wasn't sure about the Vision Pro until I saw how negative HackerNews was about it. I'm sure it'll be a massive success now.

deleted 3y ago
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chx 3y ago
We had no doubts before but the harm this will cause is unbelievable. At least until now you kind of sort of was forced to interact with actual human beings if you met them face to face although already the smartphone made a dent in that. Now... much less. See https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ for more. Of course, it'll be a success, everyone was in agreement openly wearing a bluetooth phone headset https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bluetooth_headset.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bluetooth_headset.jp... was basically a sure sign of the wearer being an asshole but Apple painted it white , rotated it downwards and presto! it's now trendy.
- NoPicklez 3y ago
  Let's be honest, a Bluetooth headset like you've linked is very different to that of a pair of earphones. One was build for calls, the other is built for music and calls. The Airpods aren't just trendy, they're actually an excellent pair of earphones.
  - chx 3y ago
    Jobs is dead but the reality distortion field survived.
    - NoPicklez 3y ago
      I think you have a reality distortion geared towards Apple hate. Because Apple was totally the first to make wireless earbuds that could allow you call people. But hey, if it helps you sleep at night

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

Eh I think we are overthinking the "strategy" here. This article seems like those who "trade" stocks with intense technical charts and lines. The real reason Apple did this was they kind of had to? There is a sense that the future is something to do with AR/VR and Apple had not released a new product in a while. But the headset still has all the issues of other headsets: poor field of view, heavy on the face and expensive. I think the real signals here are that the current big tech companies have all tried and failed. The field for disruptors here are open. If anyone has a real pirate spirit and can hack together a better ar glasses with a linux os, it might just be the beginnings of the next Apple.

chx 3y ago

https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ https://disconnect.blog/apples-vision-pro-headset-deserves/ > During the pandemic, we got a very clear picture of the incentives of the tech industry. Once many of us were isolated in our homes to avoid contracting or spreading a contagious virus, tech companies saw their revenues and profits soar as we spent much more time in front of our screens engaging with their services. Companies that were already massive with almost unimaginable valuations and earnings took it to a new level because we were so isolated from one another, and it showed just how much they’re incentivized to get us to spend more time looking at our screens. ... > I see the Vision Pro and these attempts to have us work in the metaverse or go through our lives with headsets on our faces through a similar lens. The goal of these companies is to isolate us so more of our interactions occur through the products and services they offer, instead of just living our lives and actually interacting with people throughout the course of our days instead of apps and chatbots.

amelius 3y ago
Also companies want eyeballs and there is no better way than a VR helmet.

oflannabhra 3y ago

FOV is determined by the distance of the screens from your eyes, which are user-specific. Lots of users have reported [0] that switching to a 21W [1] light seal, or removing the light seal altogether [2] provides a massive FOV increase. [0] - https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiuwm4/change_from_33w_to_21w_wow/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiuwm4/change_f... [1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1ai9eqc/light_seal_meaning_of_the_numbers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1ai9eqc/light_se... [2] - https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiq3si/wtf_removing_the_light_seal_and_band_turned_these/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VisionPro/comments/1aiq3si/wtf_remo...

nerbert 3y ago
Why wasn't this incorporated by Apple in the original product?
- oflannabhra 3y ago
  I have no idea. I’d imagine using a light shield increases the relative brightness of the displays, which could be important to Apple. Some users cannot use the thinnest lightshield: their eyes or eyelashes touch the lens. Apple did make them interchangeable and exchangeable (for free), so it seems like the major FOV issue is with their scanning and auto-selection (for some users).
tootie 3y ago
I'm pretty surprised that a product that's spent this long in development and is being released with such a high price tag would still need to be modified by users for what is arguable the most critical spec. And also I have no idea was 21W and 33W refer to so it seems unlikely the average user will have any idea.
- oflannabhra 3y ago
  Footnote 2 explains what each number means.

skc 3y ago

I've been somewhat surprised to see that early adopters unironically venture outside with these things. That alone tells me that maybe Apple is on to something. It's their biggest bet yet and they are rarely ever wrong. Not for me though.

jsz0 3y ago

Maybe I'm just too old for this shit but I'd much rather spend $3500 on a set of excellent displays for my computer and still have money left over to buy a huge TV for entertainment purposes. Might even have enough leftover to buy an Oculus for occasional novelty use.

ActorNightly 3y ago
This is what most people who are after functionality already realized. $3500 buys you some baller widescreen curved monitors.
- fragmede 3y ago
  A 49WL95C-WY from LG is going to run you $1,300, new. Less if used. It's an inscrutable product name, but it's a glorious 49 inches and curved and is so much monitor. it doesn't travel at all though.

zmmmmm 3y ago

He started off talking about how Vision Pro is not an open platform like MacOS and then he focused on how his productivity use case couldn't be realised because of lack of multiple screens. But he failed to draw the link between these. Ultimately the upside of an open platform is that you can know with certainty that eventually literally any common need or deficiency it has will be addressed by the open market - if you are desperate enough you can pay and do it yourself. For example, when people didn't like Microsoft's desktop updates they created an entire alternative desktop shells. And there are now something like a dozen of these, some of which are / were commercial products. In an open platform, anything not addressed by the platform owner simply becomes a market opportunity for a third party developer. Of course, there are lots of downsides, but this is the upside. But Apple's choice here to ship VisionOS as a fork of iOS and more importantly as a completely locked down system means that his ultimate conclusion is "maybe Apple will fix this" and alludes to hints of rumours they might do it. But this is what we are reduced to - disempowered, we simply hope that our overlords will have mercy on us, their interests coincidentally aligning with ours long enough that they do what we want. Or you buy into a competitor, but this just gives you a choice of tyrannies, not actual freedom. None of this matters if you think Vision OS is a niche or a dead end. But if you actually buy into the idea that down the track this is the ultimate future of all computing, then it should be very concerning to be completely disempowered over it. I actually love the idea of a truly "spatially" aware operating system and I think eventually this is indeed where computing will go. So that is why I'm both excited by and very concerned about the direction Apple has taken.

dkonofalski 3y ago
Isn't that a little naive and idealistic, though? I love FOSS software as much as the next HN user but, for the vast majority of it, it only does the most basic tasks possible and, with few, rare exceptions, gets abandoned or obsoleted when the developers decide that it's not worth their time to work on it anymore. The market can't and won't solve every issue/need/deficiency that people have and, even with your example, the number of issues that every single one of those desktop replacements had dwarfed most of the benefits that using them had. For the vast majority of people that aren't tech nerds like us, the "locked down system" is preferable because it gives an incredibly consistent, polished experience for 99% of the use cases people need it for at the expense of the ability to customize it to your heart's content. It's the same situation as the loss of headphone jacks and removable batteries. Some of us care deeply about those things but, antithetically to the point you've made, the market has decided that those things are no longer important to the vast majority of people.

dangus 3y ago

The discussion is kind of a waste of time. It isn’t anywhere close to being an AR product. Tim basically already told us that this type of product would fail (mentioned in the article). It’s being released to put the project to bed, if you ask me. “Ship or go home” is what the Apple board is saying. They’ll be happy if it sells like hotcakes to cult members and they’ll be happy if it fails big time so they can finally kill the development hell that is the project. Five more years won’t fix it. Don’t believe me? Look at the Meta Quest from 5 years ago compared to the Quest 3 or the Vision Pro for that matter. It’s barely a different experience. Useful for games and videos and that’s about it. This concept can’t mess your hair and makeup up. It can’t be something that you can only use in isolation for thousands of dollars. It quite literally needs decades of technological progress that may never happen.

deleted 3y ago

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Jefferyhanson 3y ago

[flagged]

joshstrange 3y ago

Yep, pretty much the same conclusions I came to [0] in my blog posts on the AVP. It’s essentially an iPad on your face (in both weight and capability). I was happy to pay its cost if it could replace my external monitors but it’s far from being able to do that. The pass through quality could be forgiven (it’s cutting edge but still not perfect) if the Mac Virtual Display was as sharp as visionOS apps but it’s not. Again, it’s better than anything else I’ve tried but it’s not anywhere close to my 3 monitors. If Apple can continue to iterate on this and not lose interest then I can see myself buying a future version but as things stand today I’ll probably be returning mine. [0] https://joshstrange.com https://joshstrange.com