16 ms·

EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

117 points by jernejzen 3y ago

jojobas 3y ago
This is an existential goal, so what if it doesn't appear realistic. Satisfying natural gas demand without The Pipe was also unrealistic.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  Vader: "Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them. The Emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation."
- BlueTemplar 3y ago
  You mean how we also built methane liquefaction infrastructure for Putin, after the war started ?
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
brucethemoose2 3y ago
Random aside, but I love this news site. It's oldschool in the best of ways.
- ezequiel-garzon 3y ago
  I agree. Speaking of old school, they scanned their first (1960) issue: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/read-first-ever-electronics-weekly-line-7th-september-1960-2020-09/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/read-first-ever-elect...
- rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
  And almost unreadable on mobile.
  - aembleton 3y ago
    Firefox Reader Mode makes it readable on mobile.
discordance 3y ago
So you don’t have to click through: “ The goal of the EU’s $43 billion Chips Act of achieving a 20% world market share for European producers by 2030”
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  One wonders how much of it is incompetence and how much just plain corruption. Anyone remember the glorious 5-year plan to build a European Google? I think they named it Quaero.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > One wonders how much of it is incompetence and how much just plain corruption Well, one doesn't need to look very long at Von der Leyen to work out it's probably both. Look at what she did before becoming EU Commission president ("Among friends and foes alike, von der Leyen’s stewardship of the [German] defense ministry, which she [..] headed since 2014, [was] regarded as a failure."[0]), and look at how she ended up with the job of EU Commission president. The best (worst?) bit is that she wasn't even a candidate for the job she got. I have several ex-RAF friends, and their joke back then was that von der Leyen had more children than her ministry had working fast jets. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-biography-career-inconvenient-truth/ https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-biograp...
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      > I have several ex-RAF friends, and their joke back then was that von der Leyen had more children than her ministry had working fast jets. What a dumb joke, besides the RAF being British, I wonder if your friends had made the same joke if she had been a man.
      - logifail 3y ago
        > besides the RAF being British Umm, my ex-RAF friends worked all over the world, including being stationed in Germany, and participated in NATO exercises. "Der Spiegel reported that there are only enough missiles to make only four [of 128!] Eurofigher jets ready for combat" and VDL has seven kids. https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... https://www.dw.com/en/german-troops-wait-8-years-for-new-combat-boots/a-50191037 https://www.dw.com/en/german-troops-wait-8-years-for-new-com... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/german-foreign-minister-abandons-australasia-trip-after-plane-problems https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/german-foreign... https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-baerbock-abu-dhabi-problems-with-government-planes/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-baerbock-abu-dhabi-p... https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-flight-woes-continue-on-way-to-djibouti/a-68076943 https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-flight-woes-continue...
imhoguy 3y ago
But Europe has ASML and Zeiss.
- mkl 3y ago
  Most other parts of the world have them too, since that's where most of their sales go.
- simonebrunozzi 3y ago
  Realistically, ASML is controlled by the US Army. I am not saying this lightly. NATO's top priority in Europe is ASML, and NATO is mostly a US extension.
  - daemoens 3y ago
    It's news to me that NATO's top priority is a company created 35 years after its own.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      That it is news to you doesn't mean it isn't true. ASML is strategic enough that NL actually adapted some rules that wouldn't fly for any other Dutch company. ASML has to go to Washington to ask for export permits for items that it would be free to export under Dutch/EU law. That doesn't happen without a very good reason.
      - audunw 3y ago
        > That doesn't happen without a very good reason. That reason is that ASML wouldn't be in the position it is without USA's early investment into EUV technology, and ASML relies on its own imports from USA that USA could block (not allowed under current US legislation but they could obviously change that if there was enough political pressure). No need for NATO conspiracy theories. USA is a good partner to ASML. Why the hell would they piss off their most valued partner to satisfy a country (China) that is dead set on copying as much of their technology as they can?
Animats 3y ago
The US has what, 10%, according to that.
mdekkers 3y ago
Politicians setting unrealistic goals? Well I never….
unnouinceput 3y ago
This can become very realistic by 2025 even. Just poach the brains at ASML, shower them with money (you know those fucking 50 millions bonuses that shitty CEO's enjoy nowadays), give them free hand for all decisions (both tech creativity and management) and voila! - goal achieved. Doubt will happen since this "goal" smells more like another "it's electoral year, let's make some noise in the press" rather than an actual objective.
- cellis 3y ago
  Money doesn't motivate people for highly technical work, in that way. I suppose if by "shower them with money" you mean provide them with best in class tools then yeah, sure, but then best in class tools have to be built by dedicated and caring engineers. If you gave the average staff engineer an $xmillion bonus that wouldn't appreciably increase their work quality.
- hardware2win 3y ago
  This isnt some 50ppl startup There are long ass supply chains
  - leonheld 3y ago
    The software engineers don't realize that cutting-edge integrated hardware is actually harder than typing a bunch of letters into a terminal. lol.
    - literalAardvark 3y ago
      That's because they've been allowed to call themselves engineers for so long that they're starting to believe they are. Industry is so hard that they often don't even hire from outside. You've either finished school and interned in or you're too difficult to retrain.
      - hardware2win 3y ago
        >That's because they've been allowed to call themselves engineers for so long that they're starting to believe they are. What a take. Is doctor telling bullshit about computers less doctor-ish?
throwaway4good 3y ago
All the big blocks: EU, US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China assume that their subsidy policies will expand their market share. Obviously they cannot all be right. The only that I think is given that will expand its global market share is China. Paradoxically because of the US sanctions and the fact that it relies so much on imports presently.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Having the largest internal market which is still on the rise probably also helps, but China has enough problems that it may all come to nothing in the end.
  - kramerger 3y ago
    But after the trade war with Huawei and zte they don't really have a choice, do they? A multi billion dollar company will not just lay down and die when its shut out from the open market, it will use its muscles to create its own. Hisense is not the market leader, but they have done a significant leap in the last 5 years (Not all of it through legal means thought)
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Agreed they don't have a choice, I'm just not so sure about the positive outcome. Xi has built a house of cards and has too much of a cult of personality to create a stable environment.
      - throwaway4good 3y ago
        Wrt. this I don't Xi matters a lot. There is consensus in the broader Chinese leadership that China needs to move up the value chain to the point where it has leadership, and potential self-sufficiency, in all key industries and at the same time stimulate internal demand.
        davedx 3y ago
ezoe 3y ago
> The goal of the EU’s $43 billion Chips Act of achieving a 20% world market share for European producers by 2030 The only feasible solution I could think of is let Taiwan joined the EU.
yurishimo 3y ago
As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike most of my nearby expat peers, I didn't move here to work at ASML or Philips, but now that I'm here, it's undeniable; the appeal of working for such companies is huge. Obviously, companies want to make money, but the goals of the government have somewhat been at odds with funding growth and innovation in this sector because of some resentment on the ground from citizens. Tax legislation is all over the place and it's becoming more and more expensive to hire experts from around the world. I understand the sentiment to start hiring at home, but at a certain point, you have to take stock of what is available and get to work with what tools you have. Invest in education for your local population (lots of cuts in the past two decades) but don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy. The infrastructure is basically all in place for Europe to foster its own Silicon Valley, with homegrown production to boot!, but it will come down to politics to make it a reality. These goals are good baby steps, but they need to ramp up quick if the EU is serious about becoming a global competitor.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Go for it. They're cutting edge and a good employer too.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    Isn't the pay smaller compared to other big companies in NL?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but if you mean the pay compared to US tech companies active in NL then I would say it depends very much on your specialization. Engineer: 40k and up, team lead: 70k and up, project manager: 90k and up. I don't have much data on other roles but the 'and up' is the big factor, depends on seniority and specific skills. What really strikes me is that an extremely high fraction of the people that work there speak highly of their employer. I'm sure Google or FB would pay more, especially if you're prepared to move the USA. Other 'big companies in NL' can pay crap or good depending very much on the company, the field they are active in and the kind of job you are looking for so that's a bit too generic to do something with. HTH.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
Amyone know what wpm units are? Wafers per month?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Correct.
Pete_arten 3y ago
I think it might not be completely unrealistic, after all, the goal of the Chips act is to support, to promote investments in the semiconductor industry. There are currently 7 factories in construction and 8 more in planning stages. This info is from December 2022, so by now I will assume something is already finished or in the final stages and possibly more plans have been made. Also, setting high goals might not be a bad thing, even if you don't reach them you might still get far and do enough change to make a significant impact on something.
- huppeldepup 3y ago
  This info is from December 2022, so by now I will assume something is already finished or in the final stages and possibly more plans have been made. Ehr ... no. A fab takes about 3-5 years to build before you get "first silicon". The tail of that estimate depends on how easy you find skilled people.[1] [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/18966/tsmc-delays-arizona-fab-deployment-to-2025 https://www.anandtech.com/show/18966/tsmc-delays-arizona-fab...
- jszgembo1 3y ago
  [flagged]
- raverbashing 3y ago
  The unrealistic part is the 2030 and I agree with them A semiconductor factory takes time to build and to ramp up
max_ 3y ago
This is most likely going to fail. Just like how the EU finance a hundreds of millions of dollars for a Google competitor that we haven't heard of today. [1] [1]: https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/07/eu-approves-166-million-in-funding-for-google-competitor/ https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/07/eu-approves-16...
- IshKebab 3y ago
  Yeah I've worked in a couple of startups in the UK now that I was surprised to discover got most of their funding from the EU. E.g. Ultrahaptics (which was an obviously flawed idea) got most money from Horizon 2020, not customers. Kind of weird that these wastes of money are never in the news, not even during Brexit.
  - jimnotgym 3y ago
    Are they a waste of money? Did they stimulate the startup economy, upskill workers, etc? Were there no spin offs? Nobody learnt anything?
    - p_l 3y ago
      Or simply provided employment to people who then paid for other things in the economy.
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      At least Ultrahaptics was. It may have stimulated the startup economy, but you can do that by funding startups that have realistic ideas. And yes, often you can easily tell if an idea is a non-starter. It isn't the case that "you never know".
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Want to bet you've never heard of most of the companies that benefited from vast amounts of US government research grants that helped lay the foundations for much of the US tech industry? Most people won't have heard about most the successful companies that resulted from the combination of military spending and research grants, much less the many failures on the way. If we knew how to pick the successes ahead of time, there's be no point in gov funding, or in venture capital firms, because they'd be able to go into any mainstream bank and loan finance their entire business with regular business loans. Government research funding almost inherently should have a high failure rate, because they offer the most value where they enable research that is so high risk they can't get funding elsewhere both because of the occasional big win, but also because of the side effects of creating eco systems. That's not to say that doesn't also lead to lots of stupid projects getting funded, and lots of mismanaged funding programs that deserve scrutiny. But it's also always easier to recognize the stupidity after the fact...
cabello58 3y ago
[flagged]
cabello58 3y ago
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seydor 3y ago
Not something new. In 2000 the EU Lisbon strategy announce that it would be "the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-based economy in the world capable of sustainable economic growth with more and better jobs and greater social cohesion", by 2010
epups 3y ago
> According to SEMI, China will have 8.6 million 8 inch equivalent wpm capacity this year, Taiwan will have 5.7 million wpm, Korea will have 5.1 million wpm, Japan will have 4.7 million wpm, the USA will have 3.1 million wpm, Europe will have 2.7 million wpm, and S.E.Asia will have 1.7 million wpm. In the not quite unrealistic scenario of tensions between China and US increasing, with China possibly annexing Taiwan, it is clear that chips will have to come from Europe, US, Japan and maybe South Korea for the Western market. I think most of these investments are considering that scenario, and then they have to tweak the numbers and make unrealistic estimates to sell that idea as a regular business plan.
apexalpha 3y ago
The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting banning the export of ALL machines to outside the EU. I'm just saying they could force companies to also have at least one big fab inside the EU, for geopolitical purposes.
- mattclarkdotnet 3y ago
  I’m all for a sound industrial policy, but comparing market cap to GDP isn’t helpful. Better to compare corporate revenue which is typically 5% or less of market cap for FAANG.
  - SllX 3y ago
    > Better to compare corporate revenue which is typically 5% or less of market cap for FAANG. I wouldn’t even bother with that much. You’re comparing international corporations’ reported revenue with one measure of one country’s general economy. I know a lot of us here are from countries that are either really really big or really really rich or both, but most countries are not really really big or really really rich. The only thing reported revenue, GDP, and market cap have in common is a unit you can denominate them in, but GDP as measured in dollars or euros or whatever still isn’t money in the bank (and neither is market cap).
    - mattclarkdotnet 3y ago
      Reported revenue is pretty reliable. Profits not so much. Revenue for a company and GDP for a country are at least broadly comparable.
      - scott_w 3y ago
        I know it's harder to know for sure, but wouldn't a country's "revenues" (tax, other revenues) vs corporate revenues be better? A country doesn't have instant access to its GDP. Or possibly just expenditure for both? I know borrowing can fill the gap between income/expenditure but it gives and idea of the actual cash that either entity can access.
dflock 3y ago
Bert Hubert has a great series of posts about European Innovation & Technical Capabilities which cover this whole topic very well, here: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/european-innovation-and-capabilities/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/european-innovation-and-ca...
jbverschoor 3y ago
EU has no money for anything. We're "commies". ASML already announced they're leaving the Netherlands. No 100% with those words, but they already know where they're going.
- hef19898 3y ago
  And where is ASML leaving the communist European block to? If it is so clear, you should be able at least to tell us the destination. Props if you link to some sources confirming the future move.
  - jbverschoor 3y ago
    The only two places I can think of: Germany (Berlin) (still EU, but at least there's a better climate). Enough space, people, life it good, lots of their partners are there. Otherwise: Switzerland. No sources.. But a highly technical CEO of such an important company does not 'threaten' our country to leave without actual plans and intention. I've said many times, if ASML was American, its marketcap would be 3-4x. Shell, Unilever, KLM all left the Netherlands already.
kakaz 3y ago
You cannot simply propel industry with windmills. So leftist Europeans pipe dream
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pmayrgundter 3y ago
How much does a chip fab cost? Internet says $10-20B [cost] The last paragraph says they "would need about a dozen new fabs to be built and in full volume production by 2030" max out 12*20 = $240B, but they say total cost $500B. Supply chain really on par with fab cost? Hm. [cost] - ChatG estimates $10-20 for SOTA on par with TSMC - https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-semiconductor-fabrication-plant-or-wafer-fab-lab-like-Intel-s-FABs https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-semic... - transitively sourced to a "third-party analysis by IBS" https://www.granitefirm.com/blog/us/2023/04/29/cost-of-chip-foundry/ https://www.granitefirm.com/blog/us/2023/04/29/cost-of-chip-...
- baq 3y ago
  it costs $10-20B if you have the process figured out. good luck building a working fab from scratch without a blank check 20-year R&D investment.
  - pmayrgundter 3y ago
    Yeah, saw that too, but it's quoted at $4-5B and 7-10 years

117 points by jernejzen 3y ago

This is an existential goal, so what if it doesn't appear realistic. Satisfying natural gas demand without The Pipe was also unrealistic.

nonrandomstring 3y ago
Vader: "Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them. The Emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation."
BlueTemplar 3y ago
You mean how we also built methane liquefaction infrastructure for Putin, after the war started ?

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

brucethemoose2 3y ago

Random aside, but I love this news site. It's oldschool in the best of ways.

ezequiel-garzon 3y ago
I agree. Speaking of old school, they scanned their first (1960) issue: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/read-first-ever-electronics-weekly-line-7th-september-1960-2020-09/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/read-first-ever-elect...
rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
And almost unreadable on mobile.
- aembleton 3y ago
  Firefox Reader Mode makes it readable on mobile.

discordance 3y ago

So you don’t have to click through: “ The goal of the EU’s $43 billion Chips Act of achieving a 20% world market share for European producers by 2030”

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
One wonders how much of it is incompetence and how much just plain corruption. Anyone remember the glorious 5-year plan to build a European Google? I think they named it Quaero.
- logifail 3y ago
  > One wonders how much of it is incompetence and how much just plain corruption Well, one doesn't need to look very long at Von der Leyen to work out it's probably both. Look at what she did before becoming EU Commission president ("Among friends and foes alike, von der Leyen’s stewardship of the [German] defense ministry, which she [..] headed since 2014, [was] regarded as a failure."[0]), and look at how she ended up with the job of EU Commission president. The best (worst?) bit is that she wasn't even a candidate for the job she got. I have several ex-RAF friends, and their joke back then was that von der Leyen had more children than her ministry had working fast jets. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-biography-career-inconvenient-truth/ https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-biograp...
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > I have several ex-RAF friends, and their joke back then was that von der Leyen had more children than her ministry had working fast jets. What a dumb joke, besides the RAF being British, I wonder if your friends had made the same joke if she had been a man.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > besides the RAF being British Umm, my ex-RAF friends worked all over the world, including being stationed in Germany, and participated in NATO exercises. "Der Spiegel reported that there are only enough missiles to make only four [of 128!] Eurofigher jets ready for combat" and VDL has seven kids. https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... https://www.dw.com/en/german-troops-wait-8-years-for-new-combat-boots/a-50191037 https://www.dw.com/en/german-troops-wait-8-years-for-new-com... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/german-foreign-minister-abandons-australasia-trip-after-plane-problems https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/german-foreign... https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-baerbock-abu-dhabi-problems-with-government-planes/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-baerbock-abu-dhabi-p... https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-flight-woes-continue-on-way-to-djibouti/a-68076943 https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-flight-woes-continue...

imhoguy 3y ago

But Europe has ASML and Zeiss.

mkl 3y ago
Most other parts of the world have them too, since that's where most of their sales go.
simonebrunozzi 3y ago
Realistically, ASML is controlled by the US Army. I am not saying this lightly. NATO's top priority in Europe is ASML, and NATO is mostly a US extension.
- daemoens 3y ago
  It's news to me that NATO's top priority is a company created 35 years after its own.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    That it is news to you doesn't mean it isn't true. ASML is strategic enough that NL actually adapted some rules that wouldn't fly for any other Dutch company. ASML has to go to Washington to ask for export permits for items that it would be free to export under Dutch/EU law. That doesn't happen without a very good reason.
    - audunw 3y ago
      > That doesn't happen without a very good reason. That reason is that ASML wouldn't be in the position it is without USA's early investment into EUV technology, and ASML relies on its own imports from USA that USA could block (not allowed under current US legislation but they could obviously change that if there was enough political pressure). No need for NATO conspiracy theories. USA is a good partner to ASML. Why the hell would they piss off their most valued partner to satisfy a country (China) that is dead set on copying as much of their technology as they can?

Animats 3y ago

The US has what, 10%, according to that.

mdekkers 3y ago

Politicians setting unrealistic goals? Well I never….

unnouinceput 3y ago

This can become very realistic by 2025 even. Just poach the brains at ASML, shower them with money (you know those fucking 50 millions bonuses that shitty CEO's enjoy nowadays), give them free hand for all decisions (both tech creativity and management) and voila! - goal achieved. Doubt will happen since this "goal" smells more like another "it's electoral year, let's make some noise in the press" rather than an actual objective.

cellis 3y ago
Money doesn't motivate people for highly technical work, in that way. I suppose if by "shower them with money" you mean provide them with best in class tools then yeah, sure, but then best in class tools have to be built by dedicated and caring engineers. If you gave the average staff engineer an $xmillion bonus that wouldn't appreciably increase their work quality.
hardware2win 3y ago
This isnt some 50ppl startup There are long ass supply chains
- leonheld 3y ago
  The software engineers don't realize that cutting-edge integrated hardware is actually harder than typing a bunch of letters into a terminal. lol.
  - literalAardvark 3y ago
    That's because they've been allowed to call themselves engineers for so long that they're starting to believe they are. Industry is so hard that they often don't even hire from outside. You've either finished school and interned in or you're too difficult to retrain.
    - hardware2win 3y ago
      >That's because they've been allowed to call themselves engineers for so long that they're starting to believe they are. What a take. Is doctor telling bullshit about computers less doctor-ish?

throwaway4good 3y ago

All the big blocks: EU, US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China assume that their subsidy policies will expand their market share. Obviously they cannot all be right. The only that I think is given that will expand its global market share is China. Paradoxically because of the US sanctions and the fact that it relies so much on imports presently.

jacquesm 3y ago
Having the largest internal market which is still on the rise probably also helps, but China has enough problems that it may all come to nothing in the end.
- kramerger 3y ago
  But after the trade war with Huawei and zte they don't really have a choice, do they? A multi billion dollar company will not just lay down and die when its shut out from the open market, it will use its muscles to create its own. Hisense is not the market leader, but they have done a significant leap in the last 5 years (Not all of it through legal means thought)
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Agreed they don't have a choice, I'm just not so sure about the positive outcome. Xi has built a house of cards and has too much of a cult of personality to create a stable environment.
    - throwaway4good 3y ago
      Wrt. this I don't Xi matters a lot. There is consensus in the broader Chinese leadership that China needs to move up the value chain to the point where it has leadership, and potential self-sufficiency, in all key industries and at the same time stimulate internal demand.
      - davedx 3y ago

ezoe 3y ago

> The goal of the EU’s $43 billion Chips Act of achieving a 20% world market share for European producers by 2030 The only feasible solution I could think of is let Taiwan joined the EU.

yurishimo 3y ago

As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike most of my nearby expat peers, I didn't move here to work at ASML or Philips, but now that I'm here, it's undeniable; the appeal of working for such companies is huge. Obviously, companies want to make money, but the goals of the government have somewhat been at odds with funding growth and innovation in this sector because of some resentment on the ground from citizens. Tax legislation is all over the place and it's becoming more and more expensive to hire experts from around the world. I understand the sentiment to start hiring at home, but at a certain point, you have to take stock of what is available and get to work with what tools you have. Invest in education for your local population (lots of cuts in the past two decades) but don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy. The infrastructure is basically all in place for Europe to foster its own Silicon Valley, with homegrown production to boot!, but it will come down to politics to make it a reality. These goals are good baby steps, but they need to ramp up quick if the EU is serious about becoming a global competitor.

jacquesm 3y ago
Go for it. They're cutting edge and a good employer too.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Isn't the pay smaller compared to other big companies in NL?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but if you mean the pay compared to US tech companies active in NL then I would say it depends very much on your specialization. Engineer: 40k and up, team lead: 70k and up, project manager: 90k and up. I don't have much data on other roles but the 'and up' is the big factor, depends on seniority and specific skills. What really strikes me is that an extremely high fraction of the people that work there speak highly of their employer. I'm sure Google or FB would pay more, especially if you're prepared to move the USA. Other 'big companies in NL' can pay crap or good depending very much on the company, the field they are active in and the kind of job you are looking for so that's a bit too generic to do something with. HTH.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

Amyone know what wpm units are? Wafers per month?

jacquesm 3y ago
Correct.

Pete_arten 3y ago

I think it might not be completely unrealistic, after all, the goal of the Chips act is to support, to promote investments in the semiconductor industry. There are currently 7 factories in construction and 8 more in planning stages. This info is from December 2022, so by now I will assume something is already finished or in the final stages and possibly more plans have been made. Also, setting high goals might not be a bad thing, even if you don't reach them you might still get far and do enough change to make a significant impact on something.

huppeldepup 3y ago
This info is from December 2022, so by now I will assume something is already finished or in the final stages and possibly more plans have been made. Ehr ... no. A fab takes about 3-5 years to build before you get "first silicon". The tail of that estimate depends on how easy you find skilled people.[1] [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/18966/tsmc-delays-arizona-fab-deployment-to-2025 https://www.anandtech.com/show/18966/tsmc-delays-arizona-fab...
jszgembo1 3y ago
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raverbashing 3y ago
The unrealistic part is the 2030 and I agree with them A semiconductor factory takes time to build and to ramp up

max_ 3y ago

This is most likely going to fail. Just like how the EU finance a hundreds of millions of dollars for a Google competitor that we haven't heard of today. [1] [1]: https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/07/eu-approves-166-million-in-funding-for-google-competitor/ https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/07/eu-approves-16...

IshKebab 3y ago
Yeah I've worked in a couple of startups in the UK now that I was surprised to discover got most of their funding from the EU. E.g. Ultrahaptics (which was an obviously flawed idea) got most money from Horizon 2020, not customers. Kind of weird that these wastes of money are never in the news, not even during Brexit.
- jimnotgym 3y ago
  Are they a waste of money? Did they stimulate the startup economy, upskill workers, etc? Were there no spin offs? Nobody learnt anything?
  - p_l 3y ago
    Or simply provided employment to people who then paid for other things in the economy.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    At least Ultrahaptics was. It may have stimulated the startup economy, but you can do that by funding startups that have realistic ideas. And yes, often you can easily tell if an idea is a non-starter. It isn't the case that "you never know".
- vidarh 3y ago
  Want to bet you've never heard of most of the companies that benefited from vast amounts of US government research grants that helped lay the foundations for much of the US tech industry? Most people won't have heard about most the successful companies that resulted from the combination of military spending and research grants, much less the many failures on the way. If we knew how to pick the successes ahead of time, there's be no point in gov funding, or in venture capital firms, because they'd be able to go into any mainstream bank and loan finance their entire business with regular business loans. Government research funding almost inherently should have a high failure rate, because they offer the most value where they enable research that is so high risk they can't get funding elsewhere both because of the occasional big win, but also because of the side effects of creating eco systems. That's not to say that doesn't also lead to lots of stupid projects getting funded, and lots of mismanaged funding programs that deserve scrutiny. But it's also always easier to recognize the stupidity after the fact...

cabello58 3y ago

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cabello58 3y ago

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seydor 3y ago

Not something new. In 2000 the EU Lisbon strategy announce that it would be "the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-based economy in the world capable of sustainable economic growth with more and better jobs and greater social cohesion", by 2010

epups 3y ago

> According to SEMI, China will have 8.6 million 8 inch equivalent wpm capacity this year, Taiwan will have 5.7 million wpm, Korea will have 5.1 million wpm, Japan will have 4.7 million wpm, the USA will have 3.1 million wpm, Europe will have 2.7 million wpm, and S.E.Asia will have 1.7 million wpm. In the not quite unrealistic scenario of tensions between China and US increasing, with China possibly annexing Taiwan, it is clear that chips will have to come from Europe, US, Japan and maybe South Korea for the Western market. I think most of these investments are considering that scenario, and then they have to tweak the numbers and make unrealistic estimates to sell that idea as a regular business plan.

apexalpha 3y ago

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting banning the export of ALL machines to outside the EU. I'm just saying they could force companies to also have at least one big fab inside the EU, for geopolitical purposes.

mattclarkdotnet 3y ago
I’m all for a sound industrial policy, but comparing market cap to GDP isn’t helpful. Better to compare corporate revenue which is typically 5% or less of market cap for FAANG.
- SllX 3y ago
  > Better to compare corporate revenue which is typically 5% or less of market cap for FAANG. I wouldn’t even bother with that much. You’re comparing international corporations’ reported revenue with one measure of one country’s general economy. I know a lot of us here are from countries that are either really really big or really really rich or both, but most countries are not really really big or really really rich. The only thing reported revenue, GDP, and market cap have in common is a unit you can denominate them in, but GDP as measured in dollars or euros or whatever still isn’t money in the bank (and neither is market cap).
  - mattclarkdotnet 3y ago
    Reported revenue is pretty reliable. Profits not so much. Revenue for a company and GDP for a country are at least broadly comparable.
    - scott_w 3y ago
      I know it's harder to know for sure, but wouldn't a country's "revenues" (tax, other revenues) vs corporate revenues be better? A country doesn't have instant access to its GDP. Or possibly just expenditure for both? I know borrowing can fill the gap between income/expenditure but it gives and idea of the actual cash that either entity can access.

dflock 3y ago

Bert Hubert has a great series of posts about European Innovation & Technical Capabilities which cover this whole topic very well, here: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/european-innovation-and-capabilities/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/european-innovation-and-ca...

jbverschoor 3y ago

EU has no money for anything. We're "commies". ASML already announced they're leaving the Netherlands. No 100% with those words, but they already know where they're going.

hef19898 3y ago
And where is ASML leaving the communist European block to? If it is so clear, you should be able at least to tell us the destination. Props if you link to some sources confirming the future move.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  The only two places I can think of: Germany (Berlin) (still EU, but at least there's a better climate). Enough space, people, life it good, lots of their partners are there. Otherwise: Switzerland. No sources.. But a highly technical CEO of such an important company does not 'threaten' our country to leave without actual plans and intention. I've said many times, if ASML was American, its marketcap would be 3-4x. Shell, Unilever, KLM all left the Netherlands already.

kakaz 3y ago

You cannot simply propel industry with windmills. So leftist Europeans pipe dream

deleted 3y ago

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pmayrgundter 3y ago

How much does a chip fab cost? Internet says $10-20B [cost] The last paragraph says they "would need about a dozen new fabs to be built and in full volume production by 2030" max out 12*20 = $240B, but they say total cost $500B. Supply chain really on par with fab cost? Hm. [cost] - ChatG estimates $10-20 for SOTA on par with TSMC - https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-semiconductor-fabrication-plant-or-wafer-fab-lab-like-Intel-s-FABs https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-semic... - transitively sourced to a "third-party analysis by IBS" https://www.granitefirm.com/blog/us/2023/04/29/cost-of-chip-foundry/ https://www.granitefirm.com/blog/us/2023/04/29/cost-of-chip-...

baq 3y ago
it costs $10-20B if you have the process figured out. good luck building a working fab from scratch without a blank check 20-year R&D investment.
- pmayrgundter 3y ago
  Yeah, saw that too, but it's quoted at $4-5B and 7-10 years