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What happens when an astronaut in orbit says he's not coming back?
- sebzim4500 3y agoI wonder how much time the duct tape would have actually bought if he tried to open it anyway.
- gnfargbl 3y agoPossibly long enough for the person opening it to think twice about the consequences of the action they were about to take? Same concept as putting high barriers on bridges, or selling paracetamol (acetaminophen) in smaller packs. These changes do nothing to stop someone who is committed to the act, but they provide a small energy barrier which can be enough to defeat the perturbations of a temporarily irrational mind.
- spacebacon 3y agoWise observation
- MBCook 3y agoGiven the size of the space shuttle it may also be so there is enough time for someone else to notice what’s going on and intervene.
- sidewndr46 3y agoI suspect the duct tape was there to act as an impediment and cause the person to make enough noise others would notice before anything could happen
- fluidcruft 3y agoMy thought is it was a signal to alert everyone to keep an eye on anything strange happening there. That one commander seemed pretty nonplussed about it, but I bet he checked it out himself and he was aware something was off regarding the hatch.
- mariodiana 3y agoI wonder if he had considered using the duct tape on Wang.
- furyofantares 3y agoI was thinking of it as a psychological tool. If the guy is obsessing about it, keeps looking over at it and thinking about how you just turn a handle and everybody's dead, duct tape could help him stop ruminating even if it wouldn't at all be effective if someone is determined.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoProvoking idea. It is interesting that many people jump to adversarial narratives, myself included. As you say, it could be a compassionate aid to help a colleague deal with intrusive thoughts.
- araes 3y agoDo these people get affiliate money from that I.S.S movie? The topic seems suspiciously timed.
- 15457345234 3y agoDrip marketing for the big war with China
- generalizations 3y agohttps://paulgraham.com/submarine.html https://paulgraham.com/submarine.html Doesn't have to be so unsubtle as affiliate money. All sorts of ways to peddle influence.
- recursivecaveat 3y agoOften it's just synergy, ie unaffiliated creators know that some big well-marketed release will have a lot of people interested in the topic all of a sudden. So you benefit by writing something about space while space is riding high in the public consciousness. Another example is whenever a new entry in a popular movie or video game series entry is released, a lot of retrospectives are released by youtubers for the series or older entries.
- sebzim4500 3y agoI don't think we need a conspiracy theory to explain why Eric Berger wrote an article about space. It isn't even about the ISS.
- boxed 3y agoThis is a Space Shuttle article. Ars Technica has regular space coverage. You are just totally off base.
- oscarfr 3y agoIs there any such lock mechanism on the doors of an airplane? I would imagine there could be sever consequences of someone opening an emergency hatch at 10,000m
- jefftk 3y agoThat such incidents don't happen more often in commercial aviation may give us some comfort, but in reality, there have been many attempts by passengers to open an emergency exit door in flight. (Fortunately, it's almost impossible at cruising altitudes).
- tjpnz 3y agoFor added context those doors open inward and the pressure differential between the cabin and cruising altitude is such that you would literally have to be superman to do it. When it does happen it's always at relatively low altitudes.
- dist-epoch 3y agoNo, there aren't. > Passenger arrested after plane door opened mid-flight explains he felt 'uncomfortable' https://news.sky.com/story/passenger-arrested-after-plane-door-opened-mid-flight-explains-he-felt-uncomfortable-12890574 https://news.sky.com/story/passenger-arrested-after-plane-do...
- gambiting 3y ago"He allegedly opened the door of the Asiana Airlines plane when it was 700 feet (213 metres) above the ground." That's a key point - at cruising altitude you'd need to push an equivalent of 2 tonnes of weight to open it - it's just not happening. Obviously even at 200 metres up in the air I bet it was incredibly scary.
- tialaramex 3y agoAn airliner's external doors are designed such that they're held closed by internal pressure. Thus opening a door on the ground is pretty easy, which is convenient because that's the only place you should open them. But opening at cruise is extremely difficult. Now - a strong person can do it when the plane is far enough up that it's very scary, after all some normal passenger airports are a few thousand feet above sea level and we want the doors to work there. But you won't open them at cruise. All the normal doors on an aeroplane are fire doors so they can't be locked from the inside.
- wantsanagent 3y agoIf you hate the format of these kinds of article let me summarize: Guy builds an experiment, flies it, it doesn't work, requests more time to get it working, is denied, threatens 'not to come back', goes into a depression, worries crew that he'll open the door to space, eventually granted more time to work on the experiment, gets it working. There are consequences for letting this kind of person fly and dealing with mental health while on a mission, but that's the basic plot.
- bondarchuk 3y ago>The next day, Wang did receive permission to work on the experiment, and he eventually got it working. I don't think he came back and got to space again in-between.
- misnome 3y agoAnd “They added a lock to the exit hatch” For a good portion of this article I thought the answer was “We don’t know”. It ambles around so leisurely and stop-start that it feels like reading ChatGPT output.
- fritzo 3y agoIt's the prose equivalent of an online recipe sandwich: thin slices of content interleaved with airy filler
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- GeoAtreides 3y ago> If you hate the format of these kinds of article You mean long-form articles? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-form_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-form_journalism I don't think the problem is with the format, but with your expectations. Somehow you were expecting a straight answer to the question in the title; instead, it's a detailed look into the incident and the context around it.
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- aaron695 3y agoIn the 90's at a party I heard the story of the scientist who cried because their experiment didn't work while in space. It was told around the idea civilians shouldn't go to space, only trained professionals. The story never quite added up just because of crying. This I assume was the incident. Good to finally get it 30 years later. The story I thought was related to Richard P. Feynman and maybe his Challenger report. I just had a quick look and it doesn't seem to be in there. Memory fail I guess. I respect Taylor Wang's honesty in this interview - "So finally, in desperation. I said. "Hey, if you guys don't give me a chance to repair my instrument, I'm not going back." Well. NASA got nervous at that point. They actually got a psychologist to talk to the other crew members and ask. "Is Taylor going nuts? Fortunately my commander. Bob Overmyer, said, "No. he's okay He's just depressed, and he really wants to repair the experiment. We'Il help out. They were on my side. Finally NASA said okay, on a couple of conditions. First, that I wouldn't neglect my other responsibilities, and second, that I would quit after a reasonable effort I was relieved, because I hadn't really figured out how not to come back if they'd called my bluff. The Asian tradition of honorable suicide, seppuku, would have failed, since everything on the shuttle is designed for safety. The knife onboard can't even cut the bread. You could put your head in the oven, but it's really just a food warmer. You wouldn't even bum yourself. And if you tried to hang yourself with no gravity, you'd just dangle there and look like an idiot." - https://archive.org/details/spaceshuttle00dkpu/page/232/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/spaceshuttle00dkpu/page/232/mode... p232
- ioblomov 3y agoThought you were ad-libbing Wang here—till I followed the link! Surprised the journalist omitted this. Gallows humor or not, it leaves little doubt as to his state of mind. But it also makes clear how the commander and crew went out of their way to help. That’s as much part of the human story as the meltdown itself.
- keep320909 3y agoMental issues are not uncommon. First japanese astronaut on Mir (Russian commercial passenger on Mir) had mental break down, and had to be restrained on the way back. It was in some Russian archives... Skylab and Sojuz had astronauts on strike... EDIT: it was not ISS, but Mir!
- klodolph 3y agoThe “astronauts on strike” story of Skylab 4, to me, seems like more of a rational response to harsh working conditions, which somehow got exaggerated in the media. The previous mission, Skylab 3, accomplished much more than was expected—completing something like 50% additional work compared to what was scheduled. Skylab 4’s schedule was then both lengthened and accelerated. The mission grew by about 50% in duration, and tasks were scheduled for astronauts at the beginning of the mission at a pace that didn’t allow for solid blocks of rest and didn’t account for acclimation (it assumed astronauts would be operating at full efficiency, and didn’t allow them time to acclimate to orbital conditions, didn’t allow them time to recover from errors or deal with equipment malfunctions). There was no “strike”. That’s a myth. There was a conference between astronauts and the ground to alter the schedule—make sure astronauts have sufficient off-duty periods, allow astronauts time to transition from one task to the next, give astronauts time when they are waking up or falling asleep. The flight director, Neil Hutchinson, later said that ground controllers erred when they made the plans for Skylab 4. Skylab 4 still accomplished more in space than was planned!
- HarHarVeryFunny 3y agoI'd imagine they are likely to be more of an issue too in the future, for longer term or more risky missions to Mars/etc. NASA try to select people who are highly stable as astronauts (used to be test pilots), but when the mission only has a 25% chance of getting you home, or involves you living on Mars for a year in a garden shed, then the people who would want to volunteer are going to tend to be mentally off to begin with. I assume they've thought of this, even for lunar missions or ISS - I wonder what the protocol is? Do they bring handcuffs? Sedatives?
- mzs 3y agoWhat archives? I've just done some reading regarding Акияма Тоёхиро but saw no reference to a breakdown.
- prewett 3y agoThe article was interesting, but wow, reading that page used up 20% of my battery and required a reboot stop whatever it was causing excessive lag throughout the OS. I’ve noticed news sites are basically unusable on mobile. Sure I’m using an iPhone 7, but it’s fine for every other use except news site. If even Ars is this user hostile, I think I have to consider news sites as fundamentally user-antogonistic, and not to be used without an ad blocker. (Unlike what iOS allows)
- arcanemachiner 3y agoI think your battery might need to be replaced.
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoSo I saw this comment in the most recent comments list (where you don't see the parent). Out of context, it read like a rather creative personal insult. In context, of course, that isn't what you were saying at all. But as a put-down... I'm keeping it.
- redcobra762 3y agoStarted and ended on 100%, just for some additional data. iPhone 15 Pro, Google Chrome.
- samcat116 3y ago> sure I’m using an iPhone 7 Get a new battery at the very least
- jasonjmcghee 3y agoI use brave on iOS and didn't notice any ads fwiw. There's also reader mode. Might be worth checking out.
- happyraul 3y agoIt's worth noting that subscribers to Ars get an ad-free and tracking-free experience (unlike others such as the New York Times, YouTube, ...), which is why it is one of the few online subscriptions I pay for.
- m3kw9 3y agoSo leave a switch to kill all crew available at all times till you think someone is unstable, then lock it. Genius
- ethbr1 3y agoIt's a pro and con. What happens in the event the commander in incapacitated and the crews needs to open the hatch? They probably aren't ever going to do that in space, but I'm sure there are scenarios that might require it? Maybe fire? Centralizing control also centralizes a failure point. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not. I thought the discussion of undertrained / -bonded payload specialists was a good component of the article, as it spoke to that calculus. Do you trust this person under stress?
- pdonis 3y ago> I'm sure there are scenarios that might require it? Maybe fire? Not in orbit. In orbit there is no scenario where you want to open that hatch. And the lock was only installed in orbit.
- ethbr1 3y agoUncontrolled fire inside the shuttle? I'm not sure if there are enough suits / sealable spaces to make that a viable scenario.
- pdonis 3y agoIn such a case the crew would be dead whatever they did. Even if we assume there were enough suits for everyone to evacuate the Shuttle through the hatch (which AFAIK there weren't), and that people were able to evacuate before the fire caught them (which is unlikely), they would still be stuck in orbit with suits having only enough air for a few hours (the length of an ordinary EVA) and no way to get back to Earth.
- ethbr1 3y ago
- daft_pink 3y agoI don’t get why they emphasize that he’s Chinese. Seems totally irrelevant
- blinding-streak 3y agoIf you read the full article, Wang himself discusses the differences with his Asian culture and expectations of success vs failure. And the perception of bringing shame on himself would bring shame to his entire family. It is relevant.
- aquova 3y agoHis big claim to fame, aside from this incident which was hush hush, was that he was the first astronaut born in China to go to space, which is a pretty noteworthy thing.
- ethbr1 3y agoBecause in his interview he explicitly says his no-failure Asian upbringing contributed to his stress during the incident?
- boxed 3y agoThe limited access to space probably contributed to his mental episode. If he could be fairly confident in the experiment being flown again, it wouldn't have caused him this amount of stress. So in a way more access to space might lower the percentage of such episodes.
- BurningFrog 3y agoAs far as we know, the "percentage" is just this guy, no?
- boxed 3y agoThere's been some other issues with kosmonauts.
- rob74 3y agoI think the ISS, where astronauts can stay for weeks or months, already relaxed the time pressure for experiments considerably.
- gumby 3y ago> On the second day of the mission, Wang floated over to his experiment and sought to activate the Drop Dynamics Module. But it didn't work. He asked the NASA flight controllers on the ground if he could take some time to try to troubleshoot the problem and maybe fix the experiment. But on any Shuttle mission, time is precious. Every crew member has a detailed timeline, with a long list of tasks during waking hours. The flight controllers were reluctant. The only justification for human spaceflight at all is that humans can fix things that a robot can't yet. Sounds like the whole approach to the misison profile was flawed, especially as he ultimately got it working. Meanwhile the robots just quietly go about their work collecting almost all the data we have from space and celestial bodies.
- munchler 3y ago> The only justification for human spaceflight at all is that humans can fix things that a robot can't yet. That is a justification, but surely not the only one. For example, humans will eventually want to colonize the moon and other planets.
- gumby 3y agoI'm interested in science so am only interested in robots which are demonstrably far more appropriate for the work: the evidence is pretty clear from Voyager to Webb to Ingenuity and so on. If we want to colonize far away planets, much less other solar systems and ultimately galaxies, why send a human when a robot is far more appropriate to the problem? Most of the science humans do in orbit is about keeping humans alive in orbit. Important, if you think putting humans in space is important. I don't, apart from tourism and other recreation. Let the private sector pay for that while government research can do the important stuff of value to all humanity.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- munchler 3y agoBecause Earth is currently a single point of failure. If we want humanity to survive planet-wide catastrophe, we need to send human civilization to other planets.
- wackget 3y agoWhen did Ars Technica start splitting articles into multiple pages? I thought that stupid trend died out 10 years ago. It just results in me abandoning the article on page 1.
- ciabattabread 3y agoIt’s not split into multiple pages on my end. And Ars had always split pages. Especially with the Siracusa Mac OS X reviews.
- aquova 3y agoI've always been confused on when they do and don't break it into pages. If I go to the article now, it's all in one long page, but under certain circumstances, like if I view the comments then go back up, it's in pages.
- cesarb 3y agoAt least for me, whenever I have Javascript enabled for that site, it automatically loads all the pages (sometimes with a slight delay) as if the article had a single page. It only appears as multiple pages when I have Javascript blocked, which is usually the case (I have uBlock Origin configured to block Javascript by default).
- picadores 3y agoNASA seems to have a long standing tradition of sweeping problems under the rug. No skylab mutiny, no depressed payload specialists, all fine here gentleman, nothing to see here. I always wondered why this is written that way. To protect the organisation? But the human part of us all is part of that organization, to disacknowledge that is literally inhumane. Because they are funded by taxpayer dollars and should screen better? Companies get funded by tax-payer bailouts and government projects all the time, waste them on not carefully selected conmen all the time. So why is it not okay to write about this? Is this a remnant of the "epic hero" with a rocket from the early scifi days?
- chris-orgmenta 3y ago> NASA seems to have a long standing tradition of sweeping problems under the rug I can't comment on whether the premise is correct, but I think "So why is it not okay to write about this?" would be mostly due a 'tug of rope phenomenon'. If you see a tug of rope game on an issue and are a centrist, people feel they can't go and start tugging the middle of the rope in a different axis (or from the 'opposing side'). Instead, people feel the need to go to whichever end of the rope is 'unfairly losing' in their eyes, and pull it in an existing axis to bring the centre of the rope into a range that they agree with. Thus, in the grand scheme of things people are hesitant to call out NASA, because they feel that there too much anti-NASA or funding sentiment already. And it's a legitimate aspect of game theory to consider (in a pragmatic / real scenario) - But it's definitely succumbing a zero-sum game model, and is a tragedy of the commons.
- shermantanktop 3y agoThis is the “both sides”/“race horse” mentality in political reporting. A race isn’t interesting if isn’t competitive. But beyond that, the centrist impulse is definitely to bolster the weaker side, especially if that side is unattractive and feckless.
- chris-orgmenta 3y agoAgreed, + Bandwagon Effect, Tactical Voting, plus other effects? I haven't come across a term that covers what we're talking about in full scope(?)(hence my clumsy tug of war metaphor), but that's probably because I am peripheral to game theory / not in the psychology space (We have lots of terms for the emergent effects - Overton window, Political Polarization etc. - But possibly not for the overall phenomena of why polarization occurs?)
- hutzlibu 3y agoThe reason was this: "When I turned on my own instrument, it didn't work," Wang said. "You can imagine my panic. I had spent five years preparing for this one experiment. Not only that, I was the first person of Chinese descent to fly on the Shuttle, and the Chinese community had taken a great deal of interest. You have to understand the Asian culture. You don't just represent yourself; you represent your family. The first thing you learn as a kid is to bring no shame to the family. So when I realized that my experiment had failed, I could imagine my father telling me, 'What's the matter with you? Can't you even do an experiment right?' I was really in a very desperate situation" Which made him think out loud of opening the intentional easy to open hatch. (because of Apllo 1 with 3 burned and trapped astronauts who could not open their door) So what happened was a lot of distress while on this flight and from now on there was a lock installed. Which means that in a real emergency, astronauts maybe could then not open the door in time. All because social pressure brought someone close to the point of violently breaking. (and because NASA did not do proper testing for the specialists, like they did for the professional Astronauts)
- pdonis 3y ago> Which means that in a real emergency, astronauts maybe could then not open the door in time. The lock was only installed while in orbit--where the hatch is not an emergency escape anyway.
- hutzlibu 3y agoOh, then I saw problems, where they did not exist. Thanks for clarifying.
- Marthinwurer 3y agoThere's very few emergencies that the lock would kill them in if used properly. Since it would only be locked once the shuttle got to space and once it would open to hard vacuum. It would be unlocked before reentry. The only other failure modes that I could think of would be if the lock was unable to be opened or the key was lost. Neither would be the end of the world, as they would have had tools available to cut or remove the lock. Given that, I'd push for the lock to be part of standard procedure. It can't be a point of distress if it's standard procedure instead of a judgement call by the captain.
- emptybits 3y ago“Open the payload hatch, ChatGPT.” “I’m sorry, Taylor. I’m afraid I can’t do that.” AI will keep everyone safe. /s
- henearkr 3y ago> So when I realized that my experiment had failed, I could imagine my father telling me, 'What's the matter with you? Can't you even do an experiment right?' When reading it, I heard it with the voice of Steven He.
- cobertos 3y agoThis makes me think that mental health failure modes are not uncommon. 2 in 650 for relatively well-socialized/well vetted candidates. And yet, no one really seems to be able to figure out how to plan for these mental health failure modes or even talk about them in the first place. Corporate America for example seems unable to grasp this stuff.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mzs 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taylor_Wang&oldid=1197957506#Spaceflight https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taylor_Wang&oldid...
- lioeters 3y agoThe relevant paragraph that summarizes the incident: > Wang was the principal designer of an experiment called the Drop Dynamics Module, which aimed to uncover the fundamental physical behavior of liquid drops in microgravity. > Despite his extensive preparation, the experiment malfunctioned upon activation. Wang, feeling immense pressure and aware of the high expectations from the Chinese community, became deeply despondent. When Wang's experiment failed, he desperately negotiated with NASA flight controllers for a chance to repair it, even threatening not to return if not allowed to fix the instrument, telling NASA flight controllers "Hey, if you guys don't give me a chance to repair my instrument, I'm not going back." > Wang received permission to attempt a fix and was successful in repairing the experiment, though his remark caused concern for the safety of the crew and the mission.
- ryanmarsh 3y agoHas anyone else read the story of the astronaut onboard ISS who lost it (if I recall it was over a romantic interest) and destroyed the toilet and drilled a hole in the space station?
- skjoldr 3y agoI saw trust being mentioned, but I don't really get it. Space is one of the most unnatural environments people can go to. Of course brains that had evolved for life on Earth can malfunction in such completely artificial spaces. Same for airplanes, or submarines, or modern warfare. There was a tense moment in Das Boot where the engineer suffered a mental breakdown while the sub was stuck on the ocean floor and the captain even felt the need to go get a pistol. It's not an issue of trust, it's basic psychology. Nobody wants to be "that guy" who puts everyone in danger, but I don't think there will ever be a reliable way to completely prevent such occurrences, nor do I think there is anyone to blame for them, and nor do I think having safeguards should be interpreted as a silent accusation towards those on board.
- EricE 3y agoYes, the resistance to something as simple as padlocking a hatch baffles me - it's like their integrity is being impugned by taking a simple and common sense precaution?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> the resistance to something as simple as padlocking a hatch baffles me We keep hatches simple to facilitate egress [1]. A padlocked hatch must be reliably unpadlocked. [1] https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo1info.html https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo1info.html
- skjoldr 3y agoAs mentioned elsewhere, the padlock was only applied and removed in orbit and there were tools available to cut it open in case it seized up
- larrik 3y ago> The commander locking a hatch essentially sends a message to the others: "I don't trust you to not kill us all in flight." I mean, the article makes opening the hatch sound pretty damn easy. I think even if I were alone on the shuttle I'd lock it just to add that little bit of sense of security.
- helixfelix 3y agoIf you want to see this idea explored even more, I highly recommend watching "For All Mankind" on Apple TV+. My description below hopeful does not contain spoilers. A Fantastic show for tech optimists, imagining a world where Russians were the first to land on the moon. This spurred increased investment by the US, continuing the space race, avoided the cold war, adoption of EVs in the 80s, massive action on climate change, and many other fun things. I wishfully think of "what could have been", and a world that seems attainable. One of the recurring plot points is Executive action taken by astronauts in space, wars avoided and caused by their decisions, brave rescues and other heroics. In one of the episodes a characters takes such an action.
- anigbrowl 3y ago"We put a lock on the door of the side hatch," Fabian said. "It was installed when we got into orbit so that the door could not be opened from the inside and commit hara-kiri, kill the whole crew. [...] I know this is mostly oral history, but that's just not what that means and the writer should have corrected or omitted it. Hara-kiri means the act of self-disembowelment in a Japanese ritual suicide (seppuku). Not the suicide or the ritual in general, and certainly not killing everyone else in the process, which is Not A Thing in Japan. There were historically sympathy suicides by loyal retainers over matters of honor, but they were voluntary and permission had to be sought in advance. Killing a bunch of other people in despair over your own problem is just murder in Japanese culture, and doesn't have any social legitimacy or a special name.
- nativeit 3y agoHN comments is apparently having a bad night. The volume of whining in this thread is incredible.
- cudgy 3y ago“This [access to the hatch] is not a particularly pleasant issue to talk about, so NASA, SpaceX, and the people who fly on the vehicles generally don't. But it does seem like something the space community should probably have a discussion about as access to space broadens.” The fact that NASA is afraid to address a real and possible failure point of a mission, because it is “not particularly pleasant” would worry me more than the hatch itself.