14 ms·

Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

40 points by monero-xmr 3y ago

ploden 3y ago
Temps got down to -10F here this week, and our MY did great. The heat pump is incredible. Our Leaf with resistive heating, on the other hand...
- the-alchemist 3y ago
  "MY" == "Model Y"?
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Yes
    - thelastparadise 3y ago
      Cannot keep up with these tesla people acronyms.
chewmieser 3y ago
Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/business/tesla-charging-chicago-cold-weather.html?unlocked_article_code=1.OU0.Ol1i.zv4XywLlWf73&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/business/tesla-charging-c...
willvarfar 3y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20240117140744/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/business/tesla-charging-chicago-cold-weather.html https://web.archive.org/web/20240117140744/https://www.nytim...
wyldfire 3y ago
I'm not sure that this warrants such a generalization from the title. The article itself goes on to quote: > “This is not a categorical problem for electric vehicles,” he added, “because it has largely been sorted out in other places.” > ... Cold weather is likely to be less of an issue as companies update electric vehicles models. Even in the last few years, companies have developed capabilities that allow newer models to be more efficient in the cold. Tesla in particular had a single charging station in Chicago that was down, but was reporting to the fleet as if it were up. Effectively summoning several cars, only to leave them stranded.
- boh 3y ago
  The only place where they provide specific examples of how things are "largely sorted" is Norway and they themselves admit: > the majority of people in Norway live in houses, not apartments, and nearly 90 percent of electric vehicle owners have their own charging stations at home, he said.
  - natch 3y ago
    This last quote just showcases a few people’s ignorance (at a minimum the author, the editor, and the person being quoted) of the fact that nobody needs a “charging station” at home. All you need is an outlet and a charging cable.
    - mikestew 3y ago
      I have to assume you either don’t drive much, or don’t actually own an electric car. Those are the only explanations I have for making such an inaccurate (I hesitate to quote the word “ignorant“) statement. — Owner of an EV that would take days to charge on 120V
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        I used an EV for years with a 120V. It also would "take days to charge", but 12 hours would net ~24%. It is surprisingly usable, especially if there is a nearby DCFC bottom charge at if you ever get a little low. Of course, there are caveats. If it is cold and the vehicle has to be charged at the street, charge times will be much longer. But he's right that people often underestimate the usefulness of L1 charging, even though it would literally take days. Coincidentally, in this thread we have people talking about a car that ran out at the airport and required a tow. L1 is perfect for airport parking.
        joezydeco 3y ago
        If the vehicle is cold soaked and only has a minimal amount of charge left, won't most of it be consumed by the EV trying to preheat the battery? Seems like you're then trapped in a corner case that you can't get out of: not enough energy to allow for any kind of charge at all.
sharms 3y ago
I just drove the Tesla Model Y around where this past weekend it was -10F. Range was probably 15% lower overall (lots of heating / heated seats etc) and we were cautious to make sure we stayed charged up (huge traffic delays due to the storm meant you could be stuck in your car for 6-10 hours). Overall everything worked out, I did have battery anxiety but there were also gas cars which had anxiety.
- LargeWu 3y ago
  Only 15% seems extremely good. General consensus is that EV's lose at least 40% capacity in such weather.
tw04 3y ago
90% of the complaints appear to be from folks who have no ability to charge at home. I would agree with the sentiment that if you have to drive any significant distance daily, and live in an apartment where you can’t charge at home, having an EV is going to be a giant pain and it might be a little too soon to go that route. I’d imagine we’re still several years away from having robust enough charging infrastructure assuming the build outs continue to get government support.
- aa_is_op 3y ago
  I'm confused that these people are confused. Why did they buy an EV if they don't have a place to charge it. It's like buying a surfboard while living in Iowa.
  - chollida1 3y ago
    They do have a place to charge their cars. There are charging places all over the place, and possibly at their work. They just don't have one at home. That's going to become even more common as not every single parking spot can be turned into a charging space.
    - brad_Saggy 3y ago
      That's the funny part I don't understand. We want EVs to become mainstream but all apartment/condo dwellers should magically have a personal charging station.
      - natch 3y ago
        Or an electrical outlet within reach. “Charging station” makes it sound inordinately expensive. An outlet is all they need and is already hard enough that there’s no need to make it sound harder than it is.
        tw04 3y ago
        That's not exactly accurate. Pick a car - say a Mustang Mach-e: a standard 15A outlet is going to charge at 4miles/hr. Say you get home a 6pm, never go anywhere, and leave it plugged in overnight - that's 48 miles of range. If you're talking dead of winter in Chicago in negative temps, assume half that. Long story short: a 15A outlet really isn't going to get the job done for charging a car. Also you cannot just charge off a 15A outlet, you're going to need to run an extension cord within 15ft of the car give or take and plug in your charger there (you can't just plug a NEMA 5-15 plug into an EV). That charger >> extension cord connection is going to need to be weatherproofed somehow. And oh, by the way, if you're in a big city good luck not getting your $500 charger stolen since there's probably no good way to secure it. So yes, they are going to need an EV charger.
tambourine_man 3y ago
Yes, because combustion engines are also great at starting in freezing temperatures. If you manage to get it going, it's fine after a few minutes. But the cold start is a pain.
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  It’s been 15 years since I had a car, so things must have improved a lot, according to the replies in this thread.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  I think it depends on how cold is cold. They likely have different min temps before you start seeing issues. Though engine block heaters are also standard in cars where it gets cold so at some temperatures this is a “nowhere to plug the car in” problem for both kinds.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    Not hard to add if your car doesn't have one. I've never needed a block heater in a car but I installed them on two tractors that we use to plow the driveway. My current tractor is this (particular) Diesel https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Holland_TC30_HST_a.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Holland_TC30_HST... but before that I struggled to get one of these https://www.pinterest.com/marshallwoodyar/john-deere-tractor-420/ https://www.pinterest.com/marshallwoodyar/john-deere-tractor... to start in the winter (even with the block heater) and probably killed it by switching it to a multi-viscosity oil when the straight 20 oil specified for it became almost impossible to get and could well be blamed for the hard starting.
- etimberg 3y ago
  Modern cars have no trouble starting down to -20C. My 10 year old car was parked outside all of last winter and never had trouble starting even on the coldest days
- zdragnar 3y ago
  Unless you have a weak battery, -10 isn't too cold for ICE cars. Even -20 is doable.
ramesh31 3y ago
It's the number one thing really. Even in CA, my Nissan Leaf would lose a solid 25% in the winter. Can't imagine what negative temps would have been like. Won't be solved until we have solid electrolyte cells, and that's a long way off.
mminer237 3y ago
It seems like electric cars necessitate garages. Basically all these problems seem to be caused by people leaving them outside unplugged overnight, which I don't know how they deal with during the summer even. I can't imagine driving a car I have to stop for an hour to publicly charge every week. I guess it would be fine if you could charge it on the street or whatever, but you would still be using a lot of power just to heat the darn thing.
- p0w3n3d 3y ago
  this is basically what some cities try to enforce at the moment: everyone convert to electric, without enough garage places
  - infecto 3y ago
    Which cities?
    - LargeWu 3y ago
      None of them, it's a strawman.
  - iAMkenough 3y ago
    Cities aren't writing tickets or fines if you don't decide to purchase an electric vehicle. They may choose policies that incentivize EV use to meet climate/environmental goals, but any sort of enforcement policy that mandates private citizens must purchase and drive EVs would quickly get shot down in court.
    - jjav 3y ago
      > any sort of enforcement policy that mandates private citizens must purchase and drive EVs would quickly get shot down in court. Citation? Have any been shot down in court? There are plenty of locations that have passed laws that all new cars be EVs after year 20XX (for example 2035 in California). I suspect most of those will be reverted as overly optimistic, but for now, they are in place.
doubleg72 3y ago
Okay.. Gas car owners confronted a hard foe in Calgary this week too: frozen gas pumps.
- jdpedrie 3y ago
  The differences are a) you don't lose notable range in cold weather (and your car continues to reliably tell you your remaining range), and b) there's always another gas station a block down.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Yes, you do lose notable range in a gas car in cold weather: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml It's really interesting what sort of things are considered problems with EVs that just get ignored with gas cars. The dual standard is pretty interesting to observe.
    - NDizzle 3y ago
      Anyone who has driven long distances in the cold (where you can calculate your mpg easily, as you are just driving all day, what else are you doing?) knows that is bullshit. My van that gets 20-25 mpg in the summer gets... 20-25 mpg in the winter. The only time it's affected is when I'm crossing the rockies. Mountains...
      - epistasis 3y ago
        And as somebody who drives an EV, occasionally in cold weather, I would also assert based on my personal experience that losing range is "bullshit" but I also realize that others have different experiences.
        NDizzle 3y ago
        My RAV4 prime with "42 miles of range" hits 0 in 22 miles of freeway driving with the temps around 10F outside right now.
pmontra 3y ago
A simple solution would be to warm the battery to a reasonable temperature but I don't know if that's feasible for such a large battery. It's not as easy as keeping a phone in an inside pocket vs an outside one. The car should be built with heaters around the battery. The power must come from the charger at charge time (but maybe the battery self warms itself while charging,) then from the battery. What's more: power for the heaters or power to move the car? Probably the latter.
- TD-Linux 3y ago
  All electric cars already do this, either with resistive heaters directly on the batteries or with water heaters in the coolant loop.
  - hgomersall 3y ago
    Presumably once going the internal losses keep it warm?
    - randomfrogs 3y ago
      Depends on the car. My Bolt battery takes a LONG time to get warm just from driving, even with the battery heater running. You can speed it up a bit with yoyo driving (speed up to use power, then regen brake to dump power back into the battery, repeat as necessary) for about a half hour.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  They already do this, but it tends to turn off at low states of charge. I'm guessing that people saw the lines and tried to put off charging as long as possible. If everyone does that and shows up to chargers with cold-soaked batteries, the only result can be chaos.
- bluSCALE4 3y ago
  Simple huh? I know the Chevy Volt has an engine to warm the battery. With a massive battery like Tesla's, I don't see heating the battery as "simple".
xyst 3y ago
yet another reason why “EVs won’t save the world but rather save the dying auto industry” Country needs to invest in supporting alternative transportation options across the nation. Cities need to be redesigned. The attitudes need to change. Car centric transportation doesn’t work at scale.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  Hard to say. I see cars deployed at great scale today in the US though certainly you run into trouble at high densities. High-density cities in the US are unaffordable to the extent that it's not so clear that the millionaires who can afford to live in them will want to if school teachers, barristas, police officers, sanitation engineers and such can't afford to live there. High-density cities have received a huge amount of subsidization from the internet bezzle too such as half-price Uber rides and same day Amazon deliveries. I think a lot of this is about deceiving the chattering classes so they can deceive us. If my farm had 1-day Amazon shipping and Hollywood had the 5-day shipping I get you can be sure that you wouldn't hear glib talk about how fast Amazon shipping is and in fact slow AMZN shipping would be a running gag on sitcoms. It's no accident that Jim Cramer gets 1-day shipping or that my congressman gets 1-day shipping (otherwise Bezos buying The Washington Post would have been a waste.) In 2024, NYC and San Francisco have more to answer for in the "sustainability" department than Austin, TX, Scranton, PA, or any "normal" city in the US which is affordable.
  - earthling8118 3y ago
    It's not hard to say. The car experiment is not going well. We're funneling absurd amounts of money to maintain the infrastructure and still the roads are often crumbling. Traffic continues to get worse everywhere that depends on them. People are dying when they don't need to.
Im_your_dada 3y ago
Also door handles freeze as Musk genius design failed to include cold climate drivers. Now inapp unlock is an upgrade that you have to pay. You would have to pay me to own a Tesla.
- fortran77 3y ago
  Agreed, but that's only on the budget-end "3" Model. I think Tesla made a mistake branding their entry-level model as Tesla. They should have called it a "Yearn" or a "Strive"
  - Rohansi 3y ago
    I have a Model 3 and can unlatch/open the driver door from the app. There's no paid upgrade for that.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  In app door unlock is a paid upgrade? I’ve never paid but I have it.
incomingpain 3y ago
I find myself a bit of an outcast in my social groups. My conservative friends dislike EVs, but I very much love them and will be buying an EV next. I'm holding out for a solid state battery generation. When it's -40c and you're running the video security systems. It only drains about 1% a day. Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss. Turning it on... harder for gasoline. Better plug in those block heaters! Blackout at your house because the grid failed because renewables arent generating? Your car is your house battery backup. Very poor traction? Better put sandbags in the bed of your truck. Oh wait not a problem for heavy EVs. Not to mention traction control is next level in EVs. The cherry on top... 0-60 for EVs is amazing!
- _ea1k 3y ago
  > When it's -40c and you're running the video security systems. It only drains about 1% a day. At least with Tesla, it isn't this good. Running sentry mode will cost a lot more than 1% a day. Best to leave it off if the car will be sitting at the airport for days, for example. Otherwise, I agree. EVs in the winter work great for many (but, of course not all) use cases.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  My only experience with -40C was in Harbin where my cell phone and camera battery died quickly. This was back in 2006 though, and I’m guessing the batteries were just not ready for it.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss. This is absolutely not the case. The worst case scenario for ICEs (cold starts, intermittent short trips so the engine block doesn't get heat) is 15%. The average for EV in subfreezing is about 24% loss. And up to 39% when you're on longer trips and heating the cabin for extended periods.
  - incomingpain 3y ago
    you say 'average ev' to include the 1st generation evs that are trash and had no cold weather capabilities. Yes -50% range can be expected. Terrible! The kia soul for example, which originally had 150km range has been upgraded now. I believe the cold weather package is standard now? Today in 3rd generation evs, you have to cross the heat pump temp limit of -25c for there to be worse then ICE range losses. There's obviously always going to be rough losses. Afterall, the colder it is, the more I want to jack up the heat. Ford, chevy, and vw I believe are still in 2nd gen? Though honestly I havent heard how well the new ultium are doing for chevy? I believe 3rd gens, jaguar, audi, and tesla at -20c will be around -5% range loss or so? Personally I'm waiting on 4th gen with solid state batteries in hopes/expectations they handle the cold weather better. afterall it is -15c right now for me. Toyota has all the patents and might be first to market?
GnarfGnarf 3y ago
Let's put things in perspective. In Calgary, and many other cold cities, every apartment's outdoor parking lot has outlets where you plug in your ICE's block heater and battery blanket. Without them, you probably won't start your car this morning. When I lived in Calgary, I sometimes had to spray a can of ether into the carburetor to get my car started.
- NDizzle 3y ago
  Yes. And then when you left, did you have an accurate gauge of exactly how far you could travel? Did you have stops along the way to add fuel in a reasonable amount of time? Did you have reliable, strong heat in the cabin? I want EVs to be there too, but they just aren't.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    If the car was plugged in before I left, then yes to all three. The first is always true for at least a Tesla and you use the nav. A Tesla knows it's cold outside. If you punch a destination into your nav, it'll tell it what percentage will remain when you get there and it's always accurate. The second is true if you charge the car while it's warm. We travelled from Ottawa to Quebec City in the cold, stopping to charge 3 times, and it always charged quickly. We knew enough to charge before parking the car rather than charging after the car has been parked. The third is true if the car is plugged in and you tell it when you want to leave. It prewarms the cabin & battery.
    - NDizzle 3y ago
      You had to stop 3 times for a 275 mile drive?!
      - bryanlarsen 3y ago
        Yes, my kids can't drive for more than 2 hours without a bathroom break, we never let the battery go below 40% in the winter in case of emergency, and the 3rd one was a charge at the end of the trip (see my answer to the second question).
billy99k 3y ago
We should have pushed for hybrid cars. This way, we can build the infrastructure along-side our current gas stations and give people an incentive to buy them (increases range of gas powered cars). It would have been a win-win all around. Instead, governments want to force us to all electric too early with nowhere near the proper infrastructure.
- johndunne 3y ago
  Completely agree. I’m looking for a new car and I’ve dry runned some long road trips I commonly do between Yorkshire and Dublin, and in a pure ev car, it’s a very different prospect to petrol only. Plus, hybrid has lots of regenerative energy recovery that can be done to extend the mpg on the same fuel.
  - cjrp 3y ago
    How so? Using Whitby as an example, it's about 240 miles (4h40) to Holyhead; you could stop on the way for a little top-up and loo break. If you wanted to arrive in Dublin with a fullish battery, there's a Gridserve at the port itself, or it looks like you can even charge onboard the ferry. https://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/frequently-asked-questions/general-information/electric-cars/ https://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/frequently-asked-question... I'm sure those chargers are all relatively expensive per kWh though, so yes compared to a petrol/diesel it would be a more expensive journey.
- antisthenes 3y ago
  > We should have pushed for hybrid cars. Who's this "we"? Toyota has already sold millions of hybrid vehicles to willing customers all over the world, probably more than all electric vehicles combined. Also, government can't force anything, if people don't have the money and the home charging needed for an EV, then they won't get it, short of govt giving them a free car.
  - thegrim33 3y ago
    > government can't force anything https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission-vehicle-transition-by-2035-becomes-law https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/wa-adopts-zero-emission-standards-for-car-sales-by-2035/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/wa-adopts-zero-emi... https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-new-zero-emission-vehicle-sales-2035 https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-...
_ea1k 3y ago
There's a 52 stall supercharger planned near O'hare. I'd guess this problem would have been much less severe if it had already opened.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Do we have to rehash this story several times a day for the whole week? An EV is a far superior winter car to my gasoline car. My comment one of the first times it came up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39015773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39015773
Gys 3y ago
Dupe. Extensive discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39013931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39013931
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  It's an axed discussion.
- dang 3y ago
  Thanks. There have been quite a few threads on this topic. Not sure if it makes sense to track them down and merge them at this point!
the-alchemist 3y ago
What a crappy article. One can't complain NYT is too pro-EV. This problem is a combination of growing pains, uneducated EV drivers, old EVs with crappy batteries, some bad infrastructure, and EV manufacturers that don't put enough diagnostics. 1. Ask anyone who has lived in these kinds of cold temperatures. Cold starts in ICEs are always a problem. in upstate NY, you always need a pair of jumper cables ready. you might get to where you're going, and then can't make it back. 2. Different battery chemistries have different cold vs. warm characteristics. Surprise, surprise, the newer, better, more expensive battery packs don't suffer in the cold as much. The loss can be as low as 3% (Jaguar I-Pace) to 30% (Ford Mustang Mach-E, VW ID.4). See https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-temperature-affects-ev-range https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-temperature-affec... 3. EVs have two battery packs: a small 12V one, like a regular car battery, and the BIG one. If the 12V one dies, you can't start the car, even if the BIG one is good. (EV manufacturers should install better 12V batteries and provide better diagnostics for this kind of problem.) 4. EVs also have a "pre-conditioning" charge, where (massively simplified) battery warms itself to prevent damaging itself when it's too cold. This can drain the battery, but if the car is plugged in, it's not a problem, it'll just pull the charge from the plug (even if the battery doesn't need charging). 5. Sounds like a few chargers "froze" up. Just like gas pumps, but obviously it's a much bigger issue because there's always another gas station down the road, unlike EV chargers. 6. Most EV owners charge at home, and we just plug in all the time because it's easy, convenient, and we can pre-heat the car with a button on our remotes, saving on battery. 7. Some EVs use resistive heat instead of a heat pump for heat gen, which can eat a lot of juice, but it's not a big deal anymore because the battery packs are so big. So, really, my takeaway is that Tesla and the other EV manufacturers need to: - cold proof their charging stations (probably a simple "growing pain") - educate their users a bit. (if the car won't make it overnight because it'll have to do a conditioning charge based on the weather forecast, WARN the driver!) - use better batteries. this issue will fix itself as the better manufacturing techniques spread throughout the industry
- fomine3 3y ago
  LFP is considered to "new" and "better" Li-ion battery in affordable BEV world, but isn't it weak for cold climate?
fleeno 3y ago
I just did a long mile road trip in my 2023 Model Y LR, and it wasn't a lot of fun. Even in the 30Fs I would get around 200 miles of range. I tried to get to the next charger with at least 15-20% just in case. One example leg was 156mi using 84% of battery in 30F weather. The stats said I lost 13.1% due to a 9.5mph wind, and 1.3% for low tire pressure. I topped the tires up after that one. When it was well below 0 I was doing less. I still got where I was going, but I spent so much time charging, and it's not cheap enough that the time cost made any sense. Some of my legs really did need close to 100% to get to the next charger with any margin for error. That means sitting at a charger for 30-60 minutes at times. Several of the chargers were in locations that didn't feel safe, so I actually took a longer route back to hit different chargers. Keep in mind that probably like most people, long road trips are infrequent. In daily use it's charged every morning (at cheap rates) and ready to go, no matter the temperature. Plus I warm it up without needing to open the garage! I will take another car for a long trip now, but I still like having an EV for daily driving.
- GiorgioG 3y ago
  Thank you for your honesty. Too many here seem to make excuses for how bad EVs are at this. I'll buy an EV when I can get one with an 800 mile range. At that point I don't care if it takes an hour to charge, I'll have to stop to eat (at the time of my choosing though) or rest for the night, etc.
015a 3y ago
This being the first midwest winter I've had a Model Y: there's parts of the experience that are really bad, and parts that aren't as bad as I thought they'd be. I don't have a place to plug it in most evenings, and it is parked outside. So, worst possible conditions. The amount of power the battery just loses overnight doing nothing is extremely predictable; if its -10-0F outside, it will lose 2%. 10F-20F, about 1%. 30F+, you won't notice drain. That's manageable. The door SUCKS. Its so stupidly bad that its startlingly obvious no one's fair-weather skin at Tesla in sunny California has ever experienced low temperatures. If the door is iced over, it takes "I'm going to break this" slamming force to break the ice and get the lever exposed. When you do, if the window seam is also iced over it won't recede below the frameless door when you open it, so you inevitably damage the trim every time you open the door (unless, maybe, you kept a blowtorch around to deice the window?) A friend with a Mach-E (long range) took a ~140 mile trip the other day. Left with 90% charge; made it to the destination with 4 miles of range left. -15F outside. IIRC that car should have something like 280 mile range. It might not have been as close if she could have stopped at the one non-Tesla DCFC (Electrify America) between the two places, but none of the stalls were functional. Just a horrible situation all around. You can't rely on Ford, Electrify America, anyone; you're sold a car on promises that did not materialize, and of the few people I know who purchased non-Tesla EVs, all of them are buying Teslas next. That being said, I think its a grass-is-greener situation, and while Teslas are better in almost every way, we're talking about very core aspects of the technology shared between brands. Nothing has put me more in the "BEVs are a fad" camp than owning a BEV. This isn't the next generation of propulsion. At minimum, the sector needs: double the raw battery capacity standard; triple the roadside charging speed (~500kw) standard; including when its cold (supercharger @~0F won't go above 60kw; that's ~90m 20%-80%); ~20x (yes, twenty times, maybe more) the number of roadside DCFCs; and regulate/litigate the hell out of these DCFC networks who take federal clean energy funding (EA was founded by VW as part of their emissions scandal restitutions. They do not deserve even a drop of free market capitalism.) None of that feels likely to happen at costs comparable to ICE, even with considerable technology advancements. Which is why I tend to feel that by 2035 we'll look back on BEVs as a weird little fad in automobile history; interesting for fleet vehicles and warn climate metropolitans, but a really poor choice for the rest of the country.
- 3y ago
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Related: EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39009981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39009981

40 points by monero-xmr 3y ago

Temps got down to -10F here this week, and our MY did great. The heat pump is incredible. Our Leaf with resistive heating, on the other hand...

the-alchemist 3y ago
"MY" == "Model Y"?
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Yes
  - thelastparadise 3y ago
    Cannot keep up with these tesla people acronyms.

chewmieser 3y ago

Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/business/tesla-charging-chicago-cold-weather.html?unlocked_article_code=1.OU0.Ol1i.zv4XywLlWf73&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/business/tesla-charging-c...

willvarfar 3y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20240117140744/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/business/tesla-charging-chicago-cold-weather.html https://web.archive.org/web/20240117140744/https://www.nytim...

wyldfire 3y ago

I'm not sure that this warrants such a generalization from the title. The article itself goes on to quote: > “This is not a categorical problem for electric vehicles,” he added, “because it has largely been sorted out in other places.” > ... Cold weather is likely to be less of an issue as companies update electric vehicles models. Even in the last few years, companies have developed capabilities that allow newer models to be more efficient in the cold. Tesla in particular had a single charging station in Chicago that was down, but was reporting to the fleet as if it were up. Effectively summoning several cars, only to leave them stranded.

boh 3y ago
The only place where they provide specific examples of how things are "largely sorted" is Norway and they themselves admit: > the majority of people in Norway live in houses, not apartments, and nearly 90 percent of electric vehicle owners have their own charging stations at home, he said.
- natch 3y ago
  This last quote just showcases a few people’s ignorance (at a minimum the author, the editor, and the person being quoted) of the fact that nobody needs a “charging station” at home. All you need is an outlet and a charging cable.
  - mikestew 3y ago
    I have to assume you either don’t drive much, or don’t actually own an electric car. Those are the only explanations I have for making such an inaccurate (I hesitate to quote the word “ignorant“) statement. — Owner of an EV that would take days to charge on 120V
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      I used an EV for years with a 120V. It also would "take days to charge", but 12 hours would net ~24%. It is surprisingly usable, especially if there is a nearby DCFC bottom charge at if you ever get a little low. Of course, there are caveats. If it is cold and the vehicle has to be charged at the street, charge times will be much longer. But he's right that people often underestimate the usefulness of L1 charging, even though it would literally take days. Coincidentally, in this thread we have people talking about a car that ran out at the airport and required a tow. L1 is perfect for airport parking.
      - joezydeco 3y ago
        If the vehicle is cold soaked and only has a minimal amount of charge left, won't most of it be consumed by the EV trying to preheat the battery? Seems like you're then trapped in a corner case that you can't get out of: not enough energy to allow for any kind of charge at all.

sharms 3y ago

I just drove the Tesla Model Y around where this past weekend it was -10F. Range was probably 15% lower overall (lots of heating / heated seats etc) and we were cautious to make sure we stayed charged up (huge traffic delays due to the storm meant you could be stuck in your car for 6-10 hours). Overall everything worked out, I did have battery anxiety but there were also gas cars which had anxiety.

LargeWu 3y ago
Only 15% seems extremely good. General consensus is that EV's lose at least 40% capacity in such weather.

tw04 3y ago

90% of the complaints appear to be from folks who have no ability to charge at home. I would agree with the sentiment that if you have to drive any significant distance daily, and live in an apartment where you can’t charge at home, having an EV is going to be a giant pain and it might be a little too soon to go that route. I’d imagine we’re still several years away from having robust enough charging infrastructure assuming the build outs continue to get government support.

aa_is_op 3y ago
I'm confused that these people are confused. Why did they buy an EV if they don't have a place to charge it. It's like buying a surfboard while living in Iowa.
- chollida1 3y ago
  They do have a place to charge their cars. There are charging places all over the place, and possibly at their work. They just don't have one at home. That's going to become even more common as not every single parking spot can be turned into a charging space.
  - brad_Saggy 3y ago
    That's the funny part I don't understand. We want EVs to become mainstream but all apartment/condo dwellers should magically have a personal charging station.
    - natch 3y ago
      Or an electrical outlet within reach. “Charging station” makes it sound inordinately expensive. An outlet is all they need and is already hard enough that there’s no need to make it sound harder than it is.
      - tw04 3y ago
        That's not exactly accurate. Pick a car - say a Mustang Mach-e: a standard 15A outlet is going to charge at 4miles/hr. Say you get home a 6pm, never go anywhere, and leave it plugged in overnight - that's 48 miles of range. If you're talking dead of winter in Chicago in negative temps, assume half that. Long story short: a 15A outlet really isn't going to get the job done for charging a car. Also you cannot just charge off a 15A outlet, you're going to need to run an extension cord within 15ft of the car give or take and plug in your charger there (you can't just plug a NEMA 5-15 plug into an EV). That charger >> extension cord connection is going to need to be weatherproofed somehow. And oh, by the way, if you're in a big city good luck not getting your $500 charger stolen since there's probably no good way to secure it. So yes, they are going to need an EV charger.

tambourine_man 3y ago

Yes, because combustion engines are also great at starting in freezing temperatures. If you manage to get it going, it's fine after a few minutes. But the cold start is a pain.

tambourine_man 3y ago
It’s been 15 years since I had a car, so things must have improved a lot, according to the replies in this thread.
Waterluvian 3y ago
I think it depends on how cold is cold. They likely have different min temps before you start seeing issues. Though engine block heaters are also standard in cars where it gets cold so at some temperatures this is a “nowhere to plug the car in” problem for both kinds.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  Not hard to add if your car doesn't have one. I've never needed a block heater in a car but I installed them on two tractors that we use to plow the driveway. My current tractor is this (particular) Diesel https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Holland_TC30_HST_a.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Holland_TC30_HST... but before that I struggled to get one of these https://www.pinterest.com/marshallwoodyar/john-deere-tractor-420/ https://www.pinterest.com/marshallwoodyar/john-deere-tractor... to start in the winter (even with the block heater) and probably killed it by switching it to a multi-viscosity oil when the straight 20 oil specified for it became almost impossible to get and could well be blamed for the hard starting.
etimberg 3y ago
Modern cars have no trouble starting down to -20C. My 10 year old car was parked outside all of last winter and never had trouble starting even on the coldest days
zdragnar 3y ago
Unless you have a weak battery, -10 isn't too cold for ICE cars. Even -20 is doable.

ramesh31 3y ago

It's the number one thing really. Even in CA, my Nissan Leaf would lose a solid 25% in the winter. Can't imagine what negative temps would have been like. Won't be solved until we have solid electrolyte cells, and that's a long way off.

mminer237 3y ago

It seems like electric cars necessitate garages. Basically all these problems seem to be caused by people leaving them outside unplugged overnight, which I don't know how they deal with during the summer even. I can't imagine driving a car I have to stop for an hour to publicly charge every week. I guess it would be fine if you could charge it on the street or whatever, but you would still be using a lot of power just to heat the darn thing.

p0w3n3d 3y ago
this is basically what some cities try to enforce at the moment: everyone convert to electric, without enough garage places
- infecto 3y ago
  Which cities?
  - LargeWu 3y ago
    None of them, it's a strawman.
- iAMkenough 3y ago
  Cities aren't writing tickets or fines if you don't decide to purchase an electric vehicle. They may choose policies that incentivize EV use to meet climate/environmental goals, but any sort of enforcement policy that mandates private citizens must purchase and drive EVs would quickly get shot down in court.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > any sort of enforcement policy that mandates private citizens must purchase and drive EVs would quickly get shot down in court. Citation? Have any been shot down in court? There are plenty of locations that have passed laws that all new cars be EVs after year 20XX (for example 2035 in California). I suspect most of those will be reverted as overly optimistic, but for now, they are in place.

doubleg72 3y ago

Okay.. Gas car owners confronted a hard foe in Calgary this week too: frozen gas pumps.

jdpedrie 3y ago
The differences are a) you don't lose notable range in cold weather (and your car continues to reliably tell you your remaining range), and b) there's always another gas station a block down.
- epistasis 3y ago
  Yes, you do lose notable range in a gas car in cold weather: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml It's really interesting what sort of things are considered problems with EVs that just get ignored with gas cars. The dual standard is pretty interesting to observe.
  - NDizzle 3y ago
    Anyone who has driven long distances in the cold (where you can calculate your mpg easily, as you are just driving all day, what else are you doing?) knows that is bullshit. My van that gets 20-25 mpg in the summer gets... 20-25 mpg in the winter. The only time it's affected is when I'm crossing the rockies. Mountains...
    - epistasis 3y ago
      And as somebody who drives an EV, occasionally in cold weather, I would also assert based on my personal experience that losing range is "bullshit" but I also realize that others have different experiences.
      - NDizzle 3y ago
        My RAV4 prime with "42 miles of range" hits 0 in 22 miles of freeway driving with the temps around 10F outside right now.

pmontra 3y ago

A simple solution would be to warm the battery to a reasonable temperature but I don't know if that's feasible for such a large battery. It's not as easy as keeping a phone in an inside pocket vs an outside one. The car should be built with heaters around the battery. The power must come from the charger at charge time (but maybe the battery self warms itself while charging,) then from the battery. What's more: power for the heaters or power to move the car? Probably the latter.

TD-Linux 3y ago
All electric cars already do this, either with resistive heaters directly on the batteries or with water heaters in the coolant loop.
- hgomersall 3y ago
  Presumably once going the internal losses keep it warm?
  - randomfrogs 3y ago
    Depends on the car. My Bolt battery takes a LONG time to get warm just from driving, even with the battery heater running. You can speed it up a bit with yoyo driving (speed up to use power, then regen brake to dump power back into the battery, repeat as necessary) for about a half hour.
_ea1k 3y ago
They already do this, but it tends to turn off at low states of charge. I'm guessing that people saw the lines and tried to put off charging as long as possible. If everyone does that and shows up to chargers with cold-soaked batteries, the only result can be chaos.
bluSCALE4 3y ago
Simple huh? I know the Chevy Volt has an engine to warm the battery. With a massive battery like Tesla's, I don't see heating the battery as "simple".

xyst 3y ago

yet another reason why “EVs won’t save the world but rather save the dying auto industry” Country needs to invest in supporting alternative transportation options across the nation. Cities need to be redesigned. The attitudes need to change. Car centric transportation doesn’t work at scale.

PaulHoule 3y ago
Hard to say. I see cars deployed at great scale today in the US though certainly you run into trouble at high densities. High-density cities in the US are unaffordable to the extent that it's not so clear that the millionaires who can afford to live in them will want to if school teachers, barristas, police officers, sanitation engineers and such can't afford to live there. High-density cities have received a huge amount of subsidization from the internet bezzle too such as half-price Uber rides and same day Amazon deliveries. I think a lot of this is about deceiving the chattering classes so they can deceive us. If my farm had 1-day Amazon shipping and Hollywood had the 5-day shipping I get you can be sure that you wouldn't hear glib talk about how fast Amazon shipping is and in fact slow AMZN shipping would be a running gag on sitcoms. It's no accident that Jim Cramer gets 1-day shipping or that my congressman gets 1-day shipping (otherwise Bezos buying The Washington Post would have been a waste.) In 2024, NYC and San Francisco have more to answer for in the "sustainability" department than Austin, TX, Scranton, PA, or any "normal" city in the US which is affordable.
- earthling8118 3y ago
  It's not hard to say. The car experiment is not going well. We're funneling absurd amounts of money to maintain the infrastructure and still the roads are often crumbling. Traffic continues to get worse everywhere that depends on them. People are dying when they don't need to.

Im_your_dada 3y ago

Also door handles freeze as Musk genius design failed to include cold climate drivers. Now inapp unlock is an upgrade that you have to pay. You would have to pay me to own a Tesla.

fortran77 3y ago
Agreed, but that's only on the budget-end "3" Model. I think Tesla made a mistake branding their entry-level model as Tesla. They should have called it a "Yearn" or a "Strive"
- Rohansi 3y ago
  I have a Model 3 and can unlatch/open the driver door from the app. There's no paid upgrade for that.
thebruce87m 3y ago
In app door unlock is a paid upgrade? I’ve never paid but I have it.

incomingpain 3y ago

I find myself a bit of an outcast in my social groups. My conservative friends dislike EVs, but I very much love them and will be buying an EV next. I'm holding out for a solid state battery generation. When it's -40c and you're running the video security systems. It only drains about 1% a day. Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss. Turning it on... harder for gasoline. Better plug in those block heaters! Blackout at your house because the grid failed because renewables arent generating? Your car is your house battery backup. Very poor traction? Better put sandbags in the bed of your truck. Oh wait not a problem for heavy EVs. Not to mention traction control is next level in EVs. The cherry on top... 0-60 for EVs is amazing!

_ea1k 3y ago
> When it's -40c and you're running the video security systems. It only drains about 1% a day. At least with Tesla, it isn't this good. Running sentry mode will cost a lot more than 1% a day. Best to leave it off if the car will be sitting at the airport for days, for example. Otherwise, I agree. EVs in the winter work great for many (but, of course not all) use cases.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
My only experience with -40C was in Harbin where my cell phone and camera battery died quickly. This was back in 2006 though, and I’m guessing the batteries were just not ready for it.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss. This is absolutely not the case. The worst case scenario for ICEs (cold starts, intermittent short trips so the engine block doesn't get heat) is 15%. The average for EV in subfreezing is about 24% loss. And up to 39% when you're on longer trips and heating the cabin for extended periods.
- incomingpain 3y ago
  you say 'average ev' to include the 1st generation evs that are trash and had no cold weather capabilities. Yes -50% range can be expected. Terrible! The kia soul for example, which originally had 150km range has been upgraded now. I believe the cold weather package is standard now? Today in 3rd generation evs, you have to cross the heat pump temp limit of -25c for there to be worse then ICE range losses. There's obviously always going to be rough losses. Afterall, the colder it is, the more I want to jack up the heat. Ford, chevy, and vw I believe are still in 2nd gen? Though honestly I havent heard how well the new ultium are doing for chevy? I believe 3rd gens, jaguar, audi, and tesla at -20c will be around -5% range loss or so? Personally I'm waiting on 4th gen with solid state batteries in hopes/expectations they handle the cold weather better. afterall it is -15c right now for me. Toyota has all the patents and might be first to market?

GnarfGnarf 3y ago

Let's put things in perspective. In Calgary, and many other cold cities, every apartment's outdoor parking lot has outlets where you plug in your ICE's block heater and battery blanket. Without them, you probably won't start your car this morning. When I lived in Calgary, I sometimes had to spray a can of ether into the carburetor to get my car started.

NDizzle 3y ago
Yes. And then when you left, did you have an accurate gauge of exactly how far you could travel? Did you have stops along the way to add fuel in a reasonable amount of time? Did you have reliable, strong heat in the cabin? I want EVs to be there too, but they just aren't.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  If the car was plugged in before I left, then yes to all three. The first is always true for at least a Tesla and you use the nav. A Tesla knows it's cold outside. If you punch a destination into your nav, it'll tell it what percentage will remain when you get there and it's always accurate. The second is true if you charge the car while it's warm. We travelled from Ottawa to Quebec City in the cold, stopping to charge 3 times, and it always charged quickly. We knew enough to charge before parking the car rather than charging after the car has been parked. The third is true if the car is plugged in and you tell it when you want to leave. It prewarms the cabin & battery.
  - NDizzle 3y ago
    You had to stop 3 times for a 275 mile drive?!
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      Yes, my kids can't drive for more than 2 hours without a bathroom break, we never let the battery go below 40% in the winter in case of emergency, and the 3rd one was a charge at the end of the trip (see my answer to the second question).

billy99k 3y ago

We should have pushed for hybrid cars. This way, we can build the infrastructure along-side our current gas stations and give people an incentive to buy them (increases range of gas powered cars). It would have been a win-win all around. Instead, governments want to force us to all electric too early with nowhere near the proper infrastructure.

johndunne 3y ago
Completely agree. I’m looking for a new car and I’ve dry runned some long road trips I commonly do between Yorkshire and Dublin, and in a pure ev car, it’s a very different prospect to petrol only. Plus, hybrid has lots of regenerative energy recovery that can be done to extend the mpg on the same fuel.
- cjrp 3y ago
  How so? Using Whitby as an example, it's about 240 miles (4h40) to Holyhead; you could stop on the way for a little top-up and loo break. If you wanted to arrive in Dublin with a fullish battery, there's a Gridserve at the port itself, or it looks like you can even charge onboard the ferry. https://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/frequently-asked-questions/general-information/electric-cars/ https://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/frequently-asked-question... I'm sure those chargers are all relatively expensive per kWh though, so yes compared to a petrol/diesel it would be a more expensive journey.
antisthenes 3y ago
> We should have pushed for hybrid cars. Who's this "we"? Toyota has already sold millions of hybrid vehicles to willing customers all over the world, probably more than all electric vehicles combined. Also, government can't force anything, if people don't have the money and the home charging needed for an EV, then they won't get it, short of govt giving them a free car.
- thegrim33 3y ago
  > government can't force anything https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission-vehicle-transition-by-2035-becomes-law https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pathway-for-zero-emission... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/wa-adopts-zero-emission-standards-for-car-sales-by-2035/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/wa-adopts-zero-emi... https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-new-zero-emission-vehicle-sales-2035 https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-...

_ea1k 3y ago

There's a 52 stall supercharger planned near O'hare. I'd guess this problem would have been much less severe if it had already opened.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Do we have to rehash this story several times a day for the whole week? An EV is a far superior winter car to my gasoline car. My comment one of the first times it came up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39015773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39015773

Gys 3y ago

Dupe. Extensive discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39013931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39013931

1970-01-01 3y ago
It's an axed discussion.
dang 3y ago
Thanks. There have been quite a few threads on this topic. Not sure if it makes sense to track them down and merge them at this point!

the-alchemist 3y ago

What a crappy article. One can't complain NYT is too pro-EV. This problem is a combination of growing pains, uneducated EV drivers, old EVs with crappy batteries, some bad infrastructure, and EV manufacturers that don't put enough diagnostics. 1. Ask anyone who has lived in these kinds of cold temperatures. Cold starts in ICEs are always a problem. in upstate NY, you always need a pair of jumper cables ready. you might get to where you're going, and then can't make it back. 2. Different battery chemistries have different cold vs. warm characteristics. Surprise, surprise, the newer, better, more expensive battery packs don't suffer in the cold as much. The loss can be as low as 3% (Jaguar I-Pace) to 30% (Ford Mustang Mach-E, VW ID.4). See https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-temperature-affects-ev-range https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-temperature-affec... 3. EVs have two battery packs: a small 12V one, like a regular car battery, and the BIG one. If the 12V one dies, you can't start the car, even if the BIG one is good. (EV manufacturers should install better 12V batteries and provide better diagnostics for this kind of problem.) 4. EVs also have a "pre-conditioning" charge, where (massively simplified) battery warms itself to prevent damaging itself when it's too cold. This can drain the battery, but if the car is plugged in, it's not a problem, it'll just pull the charge from the plug (even if the battery doesn't need charging). 5. Sounds like a few chargers "froze" up. Just like gas pumps, but obviously it's a much bigger issue because there's always another gas station down the road, unlike EV chargers. 6. Most EV owners charge at home, and we just plug in all the time because it's easy, convenient, and we can pre-heat the car with a button on our remotes, saving on battery. 7. Some EVs use resistive heat instead of a heat pump for heat gen, which can eat a lot of juice, but it's not a big deal anymore because the battery packs are so big. So, really, my takeaway is that Tesla and the other EV manufacturers need to: - cold proof their charging stations (probably a simple "growing pain") - educate their users a bit. (if the car won't make it overnight because it'll have to do a conditioning charge based on the weather forecast, WARN the driver!) - use better batteries. this issue will fix itself as the better manufacturing techniques spread throughout the industry

fomine3 3y ago
LFP is considered to "new" and "better" Li-ion battery in affordable BEV world, but isn't it weak for cold climate?

fleeno 3y ago

I just did a long mile road trip in my 2023 Model Y LR, and it wasn't a lot of fun. Even in the 30Fs I would get around 200 miles of range. I tried to get to the next charger with at least 15-20% just in case. One example leg was 156mi using 84% of battery in 30F weather. The stats said I lost 13.1% due to a 9.5mph wind, and 1.3% for low tire pressure. I topped the tires up after that one. When it was well below 0 I was doing less. I still got where I was going, but I spent so much time charging, and it's not cheap enough that the time cost made any sense. Some of my legs really did need close to 100% to get to the next charger with any margin for error. That means sitting at a charger for 30-60 minutes at times. Several of the chargers were in locations that didn't feel safe, so I actually took a longer route back to hit different chargers. Keep in mind that probably like most people, long road trips are infrequent. In daily use it's charged every morning (at cheap rates) and ready to go, no matter the temperature. Plus I warm it up without needing to open the garage! I will take another car for a long trip now, but I still like having an EV for daily driving.

GiorgioG 3y ago
Thank you for your honesty. Too many here seem to make excuses for how bad EVs are at this. I'll buy an EV when I can get one with an 800 mile range. At that point I don't care if it takes an hour to charge, I'll have to stop to eat (at the time of my choosing though) or rest for the night, etc.

015a 3y ago

This being the first midwest winter I've had a Model Y: there's parts of the experience that are really bad, and parts that aren't as bad as I thought they'd be. I don't have a place to plug it in most evenings, and it is parked outside. So, worst possible conditions. The amount of power the battery just loses overnight doing nothing is extremely predictable; if its -10-0F outside, it will lose 2%. 10F-20F, about 1%. 30F+, you won't notice drain. That's manageable. The door SUCKS. Its so stupidly bad that its startlingly obvious no one's fair-weather skin at Tesla in sunny California has ever experienced low temperatures. If the door is iced over, it takes "I'm going to break this" slamming force to break the ice and get the lever exposed. When you do, if the window seam is also iced over it won't recede below the frameless door when you open it, so you inevitably damage the trim every time you open the door (unless, maybe, you kept a blowtorch around to deice the window?) A friend with a Mach-E (long range) took a ~140 mile trip the other day. Left with 90% charge; made it to the destination with 4 miles of range left. -15F outside. IIRC that car should have something like 280 mile range. It might not have been as close if she could have stopped at the one non-Tesla DCFC (Electrify America) between the two places, but none of the stalls were functional. Just a horrible situation all around. You can't rely on Ford, Electrify America, anyone; you're sold a car on promises that did not materialize, and of the few people I know who purchased non-Tesla EVs, all of them are buying Teslas next. That being said, I think its a grass-is-greener situation, and while Teslas are better in almost every way, we're talking about very core aspects of the technology shared between brands. Nothing has put me more in the "BEVs are a fad" camp than owning a BEV. This isn't the next generation of propulsion. At minimum, the sector needs: double the raw battery capacity standard; triple the roadside charging speed (~500kw) standard; including when its cold (supercharger @~0F won't go above 60kw; that's ~90m 20%-80%); ~20x (yes, twenty times, maybe more) the number of roadside DCFCs; and regulate/litigate the hell out of these DCFC networks who take federal clean energy funding (EA was founded by VW as part of their emissions scandal restitutions. They do not deserve even a drop of free market capitalism.) None of that feels likely to happen at costs comparable to ICE, even with considerable technology advancements. Which is why I tend to feel that by 2035 we'll look back on BEVs as a weird little fad in automobile history; interesting for fleet vehicles and warn climate metropolitans, but a really poor choice for the rest of the country.

3y ago

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Related: EV drivers struggle to keep batteries charged amid winter freeze https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39009981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39009981