12 ms·

Study: TikTok Global Platform Anomalies Align with CCP Geostrategic Objectives [pdf]

280 points by hammock 3y ago

VerminOctopus1 3y ago
How do they account for variation in demographics of the user bases and the potential that Instagram is also promoting/demoting certain types of content?
- ziddoap 3y ago
  >and the potential that Instagram is also promoting/demoting The first line of the article is: >analyzed hashtag ratios between Instagram and TikTok
  - Drew_ 3y ago
    Turning the difference into a ratio doesn’t remove biases on Instagram.
- oehtXRwMkIs 3y ago
  In the paper they use a ratio defined by comparing a hashtag's popularity on TikTok vs on Instagram. So it accounts for Instagram's biases since they're comparing to them. Not sure if that's what you're asking.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    They’re using the difference between TikTok and Instagram to conclude (by implication at least) that TikTok has a bias. But the same data could just as easily imply Instagram has a bias, or both do. Or something else. Or nothing.
- notjoemama 3y ago
  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-tiktok-banned-in-china/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-tiktok-banned-in-china/ China has a separate app like TikTok and TikTok is not allowed inside China. I don’t see where in the PDF they address demographics but could you explain how you think that factors into this analysis? The numbers indicate they’re global like other massive social networks. Also, is the issue with Instagram political in nature like TikTok and China? At first glance it looks like the distribution is controlled based on their publicly available content guidelines. Doesn’t that make it inherently different than non-public content manipulation?
bayindirh 3y ago
How this is different from Meta's "reduction" of pro-Palestinian posts exposure and preventing it from spreading too far? Does Meta's (or other similar actors') actions align with potential countries' geopolitical objectives? Can we look both of them objectively and say both are bad (I think so), or is there us vs. them mentality?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  EDIT: Nvm, misread the Appendix. They’re dampening pro-Israel, pro-Ukraine and anti-Trump content. > Can we look both of them objectively and say both are bad (I think so), or is there us vs. them mentality? Yes. That doesn’t preclude classifying how they are bad, both commonly and uniquely.
  - Adverblessly 3y ago
    I think you misread it, the linked study shows that HamasIsIsis is also a suppressed tag. They are suppressing pro-Israel content and promoting pro-Palestine content.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      You’re right. Thank you.
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    It was a honest question. I have no TikTok account, and not opening Facebook app more than a year now. I just share some photography I do on Instagram, but it doesn't cross post to Facebook either. So, I just wanted to ask and learn.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      I also have neither. I’m just citing the paper. Reading it might be a good start.
greatjack613 3y ago
(Views are my own and unrelated to my employer) This shouldn't surprise anyone. Tiktok has made it clear many times over that while they pretend to be in the clear and un affiliated with the ccp they are a direct arm of the ccp that uses tiktok as an arm to influence global politics. Why this stuff has not been banned as a national security threat is beyond me.
- jumpman500 3y ago
  Because if we’re willing to export propaganda and unwilling to receive any in return then we’re a nation of hypocrites.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > if we’re willing to export propaganda and unwilling to receive any in return then we’re a nation of hypocrites To the degree war and competition are hypocritical, sure. All you’ve done is expanded the definition of hypocrisy to meaninglessness.
    - jumpman500 3y ago
      There’s a culture war, not a real war with China. If we censor the CCP just like they censor us then we are just as authoritarian as them.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > There’s a culture war, not a real war with China China’s a geopolitical adversary. We didn’t need to go to war with the Soviets for the Cold War to be real. (Also what on earth is a “culture war” in geopolitical terms?) > If we censor the CCP just like they censor us then we are just as authoritarian as them Only to someone with no sense of scale. Again, you can do that. But you expand the definition of authoritarianism to cover just about any human activity.
        3y ago
oefrha 3y ago
Alternatively, Instagram is heavily amplifying the hashtags supposedly suppressed on TikTok, and suppressing the hashtags supposedly amplified on TikTok. You can literally turn the table and use the exact same report as “evidence” of Instagram pushing American geostrategic objectives. More realistically, it’s probably a product of both. We already know Palestine-related hashtags are heavily suppressed on Meta properties.
- notjoemama 3y ago
  I’d like to see how pro Palestinian versus pro Israeli messaging occurs in traditional main stream news. I think I’ve been seeing pro Palestinian messaging being promoted much more from them and pro Israeli being demoted (more like omitted). This editorializion makes it hard to get a factual view about what’s going on.
  - oefrha 3y ago
    There’s literally an article about that on front page a couple hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38745673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38745673
  - uoaei 3y ago
    The thing is, one side has seen a loss of life measuring around 20,000 in the past couple months and the other side less than 2,000. So this kind of flattening of "pro-Palestinian vs pro-Israeli" obscures the reality of the situation. Concerns about "factual views" are orthogonal to which side is getting more press. It is likely (increasingly so, considering the number of times Israel has had to walk back serious claims like the alleged Hamas command center under al-Shifa hospital) that the facts do not support the Israeli narrative and that the level of presence of those claims in the current discourse have come to reflect the news media's skepticism of such claims.
    - darawk 3y ago
      who cares about casualty numbers when one side initiated it by killing civilians? Israel has license to kill every single one of them until the hostage taking, rockets and murders stop. Israel didn't initiate this. Palestine did. They did so knowing this would be Israel's response. This blood is on the hands of the Palestinian leadership's intentional strategy. Don't want your people to die? Don't organize massacres of civilians. Real easy. If your government organizes such a massacre, I'm sorry but your life is forfeit. Maybe vote differently next time. Casualty counts are irrelevant if we aren't looking at who the casualties are and who started what.
brutalized 3y ago
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_8j50 3y ago
Tiktok and their relationship with CCP is something anyone can see plainly. I mean, if the US government was installing implants (snowden leaks) at US tech companies, if you disagree with my first statement then you must believe China is an even more free society than the US. The biggest tragedy in america right now, one that fuels the apathy and national self-destruction is the lack of gratitude and appreciation of just how precious and priceless the peace, stability and prosperity we have now (not decades ago but today) is. Americans just simply don't know the levels of poverty and desperation much of the world has seen, it is just impossible here. They don't know that just in the 70s and 80s China was having mass starvations. Their appreciation of their government's ability to lift them out of that and the century of humiliation they had before that is not small (unlike americans). The world is not a nice place, the CCP is much worse than putin and their goal is not to coexist with the west. And if tiktok ends up giving the CCP an advantage, whether in the 2024 elections or future cold/hot conflict with the PLA, I for one would lay significant blame on HNers who rallied against Biden's attempt to block tiktock because of b.s. slipperly slop fallacies. They already ban US social media there! This would have been reciprocal, it might have been one of the smallest things that could have been done to avoid possible chaos and carnage in the future. The government does have power to censor foreign companies's speech. Matter of fact, the first amendment does not apply to companies, it applies to people, and no one who uses tiktok would be prevented from using another platform to make the same speech! This about tech companies and startups worried about "what if I am next". Your opinions have consequences because people consider many of you on HN knowledgable or experts in tech.
- logicchains 3y ago
  >They don't know that just in the 70s and 80s China was having mass starvations. Their appreciation of their government's ability to lift them out of that and the century of humiliation they had before that is not small (unlike americans). The mass starvations in the 70s and 80s were because of that same government; while Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Hong Kong were rapidly developing, China was putting people in jail for trying to sell their goods and agricultural products on the private market. The GDP per capita of Taiwan is still three times higher than that of mainland China, which wouldn't be the case if China didn't have a government that made private enterprise illegal for a few decades.
hsuduebc2 3y ago
Smallest surprise of the year. And year is ending.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  It is very clear you jumped in already biased and completely ignored all the great comments already here telling how awful a "study" this actually is.
  - hsuduebc2 3y ago
    Sure. It was a joke. I'm convinced that this is clash of powers from all sides using all tools to dominate over other. I just happened to be born at one of them which determines your side. But I do believe that western country treat their inhabitants better than for example Chinese one.
    - Dah00n 3y ago
      Sure, some of them do. The US? Maybe, depending on what it is you want to do and how rich you are. Scandinavian countries, yes.
xnx 3y ago
I'm a heavy TikTok user (entirely scrolling the For You page) and can't think of any Israel or Palestine related videos I've seen. If there's any CCP propaganda I see in my feed, it is in the form of efficient Chinese factory and farm worker montages.
- zelphirkalt 3y ago
  If you have not seen any video about such a prominent and important topic, then that speaks for itself. Keep the users in the happy zone, don't shake them awake from the illusion of a peaceful well functioning world of consumption.
  - dopa42365 3y ago
    It's almost as if tiktok isn't a news site (at least not primarily).
  - foverzar 3y ago
    Slogans sound fun, but realistically TikTok is just very good at giving you content you're interested in. If they don't care for this kind of content, they simply won't see it. It's the same the other way around.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      > realistically TikTok is just very good at giving you content you're interested in. And nothing else? Show me the data. The problem is that it feels like they just show users what they want, that there are no thumbs on the scale, but then they hide the scale! There is no transparency.
      - Dah00n 3y ago
        That reads an awful lot like a "Guilty until proven innocent because China" argument. >There is no transparency. Hey Google! What is Project Texas?
hello_dang 3y ago
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lagichikool 3y ago
The best solution to TikTok would seem to be for the responsible parties, such as Google and Apple, to add a warning message to apps believed to be controlled by governments. The same way Google already does with YouTube channels. And for journalists and the government to investigate suspected ties and announce their findings loudly, so that people can make an informed choice. But actually banning the app, even though it would be a good thing for users, seems like a fraught choice for a free country.
- ZoomerCretin 3y ago
  >The same way Google already does with YouTube channels. In theory this sounds nice, but in practice it has a very pro-western bias. For example: Under BBC videos, the warning is "BBC is a British public broadcast service." Under NPR videos, the warning is "NPR is an American public broadcast service." Under CGTN videos, the warning is "CGTN is funded in whole or in part by the Chinese government." The BBC and NPR are also "funded in whole in part by the [UK/US] government", yet it comes with a much nicer warning.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  This doesn't work very well when the entity adding the warning is heavily biased.
yorwba 3y ago
Reposting my comment from the previous discussion that didn't get quite so active: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38736001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38736001 Their methodology (comparing hashtag counts) does not make sense for detecting whether content is systematically promoted and demoted to fit some agenda. I can make one video, have it artificially promoted to reach a million viewers, and that's a hashtag increment of 1. Or I can make ten videos that are all unfairly demoted and therefore barely get any views, and that's a hashtag increment of 10. The discrepancy for Kashmir-related hashtags makes me think there are a lot of Pakistanis on TikTok who never use Instagram...
- croemer 3y ago
  That's right, to a first degree, it just seems to be differences in user bases. There may well be nudging going on, but it's hard to discern and would require more complex econometric models. Of course it's possible that users self-select: those who are pro-Tibet won't post on TikTok as they know that content won't work there. Would be good to compare other western platforms: is there similar discrepancy between Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Bluesky, Mastodon? I'm sure there will be some discrepancies.
- aragonite 3y ago
  > The discrepancy for Kashmir-related hashtags makes me think there are a lot of Pakistanis on TikTok who never use Instagram... Also, India banned TikTok, so there's no Indian TikTok accounts pushing alternative viewpoints/hashtags. It's not hard to imagine how that might have led to the observed results, and it's a little odd that ctrl+F-ing "India" produced no result in that report.
- theteapot 3y ago
  Article states: > ... we replicated TikTok’s own methodology used in its November 13, 2023 letter. So Tiktok's own methodology doesn't make sense? Goes on to say: > NCRI analysts examined the volume of posts on TikTok by hashtag, using the platform’s own ads manager portal. We performed the same analysis using Instagram’s explore feature. Are your 10 shitty videos aren't going to show up on the ad manager portal?
Racing0461 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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gibbitz 3y ago
If the overall concern is exposure to propaganda, why waste time blocking the holes it comes in through? Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda? I would think this would also help to keep the powers that be in this country in Check as well... I find it worrying that we can see how effective propaganda has been at polarizing our country but no one wants to address all propaganda, just the other side's version. If this were to become a basic core competency in our education system, I guess it would undermine advertising as well, but IMO that would be a plus...
- 23B1 3y ago
  > Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda? Sweet summer child
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  The propaganda is in controlling the dials/levers of what is seen which gives an artificial sense of prevalence. You can tell any story you want- make elderly people beating up young people trend more and people will think it's a common occurrence. I think mandatory transparency into the algos is a start but that assumes nobody tampers behind the scenes which would be trivial w/ software.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    There's also the propaganda accusation as propaganda. If TikTok skews young and they have a viewpoint that's different from entrenched power, we can just blame the Chinese.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      If they don't want the accusation they shouldn't commingle civilian enterprise with communist party goals. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/chinese-communist-partys-theory-hybrid-warfare https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/chinese-commun... Edit: They have this and the thousand talents program and then complain that people don't trust them. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-china-threat/chinese-talent-plans https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-chin...
hotdogscout 3y ago
Relevant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine Extremely relevant with each passing year: https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU?si=URc2oDbqWRptJm0s https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU?si=URc2oDbqWRptJm0s
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
Apple, google global platform anomalies align with us geostrategic objectives. I do not know why this is news. Every single large company in every country has strong ties to the govt and works in sync with it. It's not a big secret.
- factormeta 3y ago
  And Telegram align with Russians. Don't use these Faangish platform period for personal communications. Once there is a user based they will be bought by huge geopolitical influences. Use Matrix, Masterdon, email, phone for communication and only see these platform as publishing platforms to target these specific geopolitical camps.
- terminous 3y ago
  Sure it may not be a big secret, but I would say that any substantive report about any systematic platform anomalies that align with any geostrategic objectives are relevant posts for HN, be it a platform in the US, China, or any other country. Refusal to discuss any of these because it is something everyone ostensibly knows... Now that is suspicious.
poopiokaka 3y ago
This lab generally puts out mediocre work. Are they self posting here?
mulmen 3y ago
Is this deliberate or the geopolitical equivalent of shipping the org chart?
WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
That's called social engineering, the US also abuses its position as leader to spread their propaganda all around the world Let us not forget about Facebook / Myanmar https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-facebooks-systems-promoted-violence-against-rohingya-meta-owes-reparations-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb... The west calls it "pursuit of profit", i call it intentional social engineering, since we all know most of the social media apps have for "content moderation" team former CIA agents, and part of their existence is due to CIA/NSA research grants/programs, and the US has clear interests in that region, for that one specific case https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... This is why it is important for parents to properly educate their children when it comes to social media, i would personally prohibit them all But let's be honest, TikTok is the least harmful of them all, Twitter and Facebook comes to mind first when it comes to political propaganda, as well as disturbing content Wanting it banned without expecting all the other ones to follow is disingenuous, to say the least, or it is perhaps "propaganda" ;)
invig 3y ago
Give up control of what you are consuming at your own peril.
ramblenode 3y ago
I'm not disinclined to believe that TikTok promotes pro-China sentiment, but this report is far from academically rigorous and has gaping holes in its methodology that would not pass peer review. * Most notable is that the baseline for determining whether a hashtag has been boosted or deboosted on TikTok comes from Instagram---hardly an unbiased source of ground truth, especially in light of the recent allegations that Meta deboosts pro-Palestinian content and other controversial political content. * Worse is that there's no statistical analysis showing that generic political hashtags are significantly different from China-sensitive political hashtags between TikTok and Instagram. There is large variance within categories, and even some of the generic political hashtags show a bigger difference between platforms than the China-sensitive political hashtags. Statistics would help determine whether a real difference exists beyond sampling error, but none are to be found in this report. * No explanation of how the hashtags were determined. They were apparently chosen a priori by the authors, but no criteria for inclusion or exclusion are mentioned. * Other small details like discrepencies between Fig 2. and Fig 3. in describing TikTok as having half the hashtags as Instagram and Instagram has having double the hashtags as TikTok. Overall, this report just seems like fodder for the anti-TikTok crowd, not a dispassionate inquiry into how TikTok trends relfect CCP narrative building.
- Morte42 3y ago
  The fact that they are using Instagram as a control in the study is hilarious. The standards in these universities are laughable.
  - Hnrobert42 3y ago
    One does not necessarily follow from the other.
- nneonneo 3y ago
  And that’s why it’s being posted as a white paper, not an academic paper. No peer review required!
- rutierut 3y ago
  > Overall, this report just seems like fodder for the anti-TikTok crowd, Can confirm, I do belong to that crowd and I did share it after reading it. An hour later, it dawned on me that this report is maybe kinda cool, but really isn't enough to draw any conclusions from and I should not have shared it.
phendrenad2 3y ago
Sufficiently advanced gathering places for unpopular opinions are indistinguishable from government propaganda outlets.
api 3y ago
I’m not sure why anyone finds this hard to believe. Do US media companies tend to align with US geostrategic objectives? Now consider that the link between the Chinese state and its companies is much firmer and more authoritarian than it is in the US.
CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
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- CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
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kossTKR 3y ago
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japanman185 3y ago
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actuallyrizzn 3y ago
I've worked with NCRI before. I worked on a paper about DAOs, blockchain, memecoins and market manipulation. While it may not be intended to pass peer review, they do bring to light novel concepts and trends and do so in an intellectually honest way... fwiw.
mingKun 3y ago
As a Chinese, I can use YouTube, X, and Instagram, but I can hardly use TikTok,it detect which country my SIM card belongs to. I often come across false content about China on Western social media, which significantly outweighs the real content. Of course, there is about 10% of real content that I cannot access on domestic social media platforms. Regarding China, Western media consists of nearly 80% false content and 20% real content, with the real content being mostly negative. The information about the West in China is similar, where the saying "all crows are black" applies.In the end, we live in a safe authoritarian country. Of course, I wish to live in a true democratic country, but does it exist? The United States? Hilarious.

280 points by hammock 3y ago

How do they account for variation in demographics of the user bases and the potential that Instagram is also promoting/demoting certain types of content?

ziddoap 3y ago
>and the potential that Instagram is also promoting/demoting The first line of the article is: >analyzed hashtag ratios between Instagram and TikTok
- Drew_ 3y ago
  Turning the difference into a ratio doesn’t remove biases on Instagram.
oehtXRwMkIs 3y ago
In the paper they use a ratio defined by comparing a hashtag's popularity on TikTok vs on Instagram. So it accounts for Instagram's biases since they're comparing to them. Not sure if that's what you're asking.
- zztop44 3y ago
  They’re using the difference between TikTok and Instagram to conclude (by implication at least) that TikTok has a bias. But the same data could just as easily imply Instagram has a bias, or both do. Or something else. Or nothing.
notjoemama 3y ago
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-tiktok-banned-in-china/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-tiktok-banned-in-china/ China has a separate app like TikTok and TikTok is not allowed inside China. I don’t see where in the PDF they address demographics but could you explain how you think that factors into this analysis? The numbers indicate they’re global like other massive social networks. Also, is the issue with Instagram political in nature like TikTok and China? At first glance it looks like the distribution is controlled based on their publicly available content guidelines. Doesn’t that make it inherently different than non-public content manipulation?

bayindirh 3y ago

How this is different from Meta's "reduction" of pro-Palestinian posts exposure and preventing it from spreading too far? Does Meta's (or other similar actors') actions align with potential countries' geopolitical objectives? Can we look both of them objectively and say both are bad (I think so), or is there us vs. them mentality?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
EDIT: Nvm, misread the Appendix. They’re dampening pro-Israel, pro-Ukraine and anti-Trump content. > Can we look both of them objectively and say both are bad (I think so), or is there us vs. them mentality? Yes. That doesn’t preclude classifying how they are bad, both commonly and uniquely.
- Adverblessly 3y ago
  I think you misread it, the linked study shows that HamasIsIsis is also a suppressed tag. They are suppressing pro-Israel content and promoting pro-Palestine content.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    You’re right. Thank you.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  It was a honest question. I have no TikTok account, and not opening Facebook app more than a year now. I just share some photography I do on Instagram, but it doesn't cross post to Facebook either. So, I just wanted to ask and learn.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    I also have neither. I’m just citing the paper. Reading it might be a good start.

greatjack613 3y ago

(Views are my own and unrelated to my employer) This shouldn't surprise anyone. Tiktok has made it clear many times over that while they pretend to be in the clear and un affiliated with the ccp they are a direct arm of the ccp that uses tiktok as an arm to influence global politics. Why this stuff has not been banned as a national security threat is beyond me.

jumpman500 3y ago
Because if we’re willing to export propaganda and unwilling to receive any in return then we’re a nation of hypocrites.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > if we’re willing to export propaganda and unwilling to receive any in return then we’re a nation of hypocrites To the degree war and competition are hypocritical, sure. All you’ve done is expanded the definition of hypocrisy to meaninglessness.
  - jumpman500 3y ago
    There’s a culture war, not a real war with China. If we censor the CCP just like they censor us then we are just as authoritarian as them.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > There’s a culture war, not a real war with China China’s a geopolitical adversary. We didn’t need to go to war with the Soviets for the Cold War to be real. (Also what on earth is a “culture war” in geopolitical terms?) > If we censor the CCP just like they censor us then we are just as authoritarian as them Only to someone with no sense of scale. Again, you can do that. But you expand the definition of authoritarianism to cover just about any human activity.
      - 3y ago

oefrha 3y ago

Alternatively, Instagram is heavily amplifying the hashtags supposedly suppressed on TikTok, and suppressing the hashtags supposedly amplified on TikTok. You can literally turn the table and use the exact same report as “evidence” of Instagram pushing American geostrategic objectives. More realistically, it’s probably a product of both. We already know Palestine-related hashtags are heavily suppressed on Meta properties.

notjoemama 3y ago
I’d like to see how pro Palestinian versus pro Israeli messaging occurs in traditional main stream news. I think I’ve been seeing pro Palestinian messaging being promoted much more from them and pro Israeli being demoted (more like omitted). This editorializion makes it hard to get a factual view about what’s going on.
- oefrha 3y ago
  There’s literally an article about that on front page a couple hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38745673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38745673
- uoaei 3y ago
  The thing is, one side has seen a loss of life measuring around 20,000 in the past couple months and the other side less than 2,000. So this kind of flattening of "pro-Palestinian vs pro-Israeli" obscures the reality of the situation. Concerns about "factual views" are orthogonal to which side is getting more press. It is likely (increasingly so, considering the number of times Israel has had to walk back serious claims like the alleged Hamas command center under al-Shifa hospital) that the facts do not support the Israeli narrative and that the level of presence of those claims in the current discourse have come to reflect the news media's skepticism of such claims.
  - darawk 3y ago
    who cares about casualty numbers when one side initiated it by killing civilians? Israel has license to kill every single one of them until the hostage taking, rockets and murders stop. Israel didn't initiate this. Palestine did. They did so knowing this would be Israel's response. This blood is on the hands of the Palestinian leadership's intentional strategy. Don't want your people to die? Don't organize massacres of civilians. Real easy. If your government organizes such a massacre, I'm sorry but your life is forfeit. Maybe vote differently next time. Casualty counts are irrelevant if we aren't looking at who the casualties are and who started what.

brutalized 3y ago

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_8j50 3y ago

Tiktok and their relationship with CCP is something anyone can see plainly. I mean, if the US government was installing implants (snowden leaks) at US tech companies, if you disagree with my first statement then you must believe China is an even more free society than the US. The biggest tragedy in america right now, one that fuels the apathy and national self-destruction is the lack of gratitude and appreciation of just how precious and priceless the peace, stability and prosperity we have now (not decades ago but today) is. Americans just simply don't know the levels of poverty and desperation much of the world has seen, it is just impossible here. They don't know that just in the 70s and 80s China was having mass starvations. Their appreciation of their government's ability to lift them out of that and the century of humiliation they had before that is not small (unlike americans). The world is not a nice place, the CCP is much worse than putin and their goal is not to coexist with the west. And if tiktok ends up giving the CCP an advantage, whether in the 2024 elections or future cold/hot conflict with the PLA, I for one would lay significant blame on HNers who rallied against Biden's attempt to block tiktock because of b.s. slipperly slop fallacies. They already ban US social media there! This would have been reciprocal, it might have been one of the smallest things that could have been done to avoid possible chaos and carnage in the future. The government does have power to censor foreign companies's speech. Matter of fact, the first amendment does not apply to companies, it applies to people, and no one who uses tiktok would be prevented from using another platform to make the same speech! This about tech companies and startups worried about "what if I am next". Your opinions have consequences because people consider many of you on HN knowledgable or experts in tech.

logicchains 3y ago
>They don't know that just in the 70s and 80s China was having mass starvations. Their appreciation of their government's ability to lift them out of that and the century of humiliation they had before that is not small (unlike americans). The mass starvations in the 70s and 80s were because of that same government; while Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Hong Kong were rapidly developing, China was putting people in jail for trying to sell their goods and agricultural products on the private market. The GDP per capita of Taiwan is still three times higher than that of mainland China, which wouldn't be the case if China didn't have a government that made private enterprise illegal for a few decades.

hsuduebc2 3y ago

Smallest surprise of the year. And year is ending.

Dah00n 3y ago
It is very clear you jumped in already biased and completely ignored all the great comments already here telling how awful a "study" this actually is.
- hsuduebc2 3y ago
  Sure. It was a joke. I'm convinced that this is clash of powers from all sides using all tools to dominate over other. I just happened to be born at one of them which determines your side. But I do believe that western country treat their inhabitants better than for example Chinese one.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    Sure, some of them do. The US? Maybe, depending on what it is you want to do and how rich you are. Scandinavian countries, yes.

xnx 3y ago

I'm a heavy TikTok user (entirely scrolling the For You page) and can't think of any Israel or Palestine related videos I've seen. If there's any CCP propaganda I see in my feed, it is in the form of efficient Chinese factory and farm worker montages.

zelphirkalt 3y ago
If you have not seen any video about such a prominent and important topic, then that speaks for itself. Keep the users in the happy zone, don't shake them awake from the illusion of a peaceful well functioning world of consumption.
- dopa42365 3y ago
  It's almost as if tiktok isn't a news site (at least not primarily).
- foverzar 3y ago
  Slogans sound fun, but realistically TikTok is just very good at giving you content you're interested in. If they don't care for this kind of content, they simply won't see it. It's the same the other way around.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    > realistically TikTok is just very good at giving you content you're interested in. And nothing else? Show me the data. The problem is that it feels like they just show users what they want, that there are no thumbs on the scale, but then they hide the scale! There is no transparency.
    - Dah00n 3y ago
      That reads an awful lot like a "Guilty until proven innocent because China" argument. >There is no transparency. Hey Google! What is Project Texas?

hello_dang 3y ago

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lagichikool 3y ago

The best solution to TikTok would seem to be for the responsible parties, such as Google and Apple, to add a warning message to apps believed to be controlled by governments. The same way Google already does with YouTube channels. And for journalists and the government to investigate suspected ties and announce their findings loudly, so that people can make an informed choice. But actually banning the app, even though it would be a good thing for users, seems like a fraught choice for a free country.

ZoomerCretin 3y ago
>The same way Google already does with YouTube channels. In theory this sounds nice, but in practice it has a very pro-western bias. For example: Under BBC videos, the warning is "BBC is a British public broadcast service." Under NPR videos, the warning is "NPR is an American public broadcast service." Under CGTN videos, the warning is "CGTN is funded in whole or in part by the Chinese government." The BBC and NPR are also "funded in whole in part by the [UK/US] government", yet it comes with a much nicer warning.
Dah00n 3y ago
This doesn't work very well when the entity adding the warning is heavily biased.

yorwba 3y ago

Reposting my comment from the previous discussion that didn't get quite so active: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38736001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38736001 Their methodology (comparing hashtag counts) does not make sense for detecting whether content is systematically promoted and demoted to fit some agenda. I can make one video, have it artificially promoted to reach a million viewers, and that's a hashtag increment of 1. Or I can make ten videos that are all unfairly demoted and therefore barely get any views, and that's a hashtag increment of 10. The discrepancy for Kashmir-related hashtags makes me think there are a lot of Pakistanis on TikTok who never use Instagram...

croemer 3y ago
That's right, to a first degree, it just seems to be differences in user bases. There may well be nudging going on, but it's hard to discern and would require more complex econometric models. Of course it's possible that users self-select: those who are pro-Tibet won't post on TikTok as they know that content won't work there. Would be good to compare other western platforms: is there similar discrepancy between Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Bluesky, Mastodon? I'm sure there will be some discrepancies.
aragonite 3y ago
> The discrepancy for Kashmir-related hashtags makes me think there are a lot of Pakistanis on TikTok who never use Instagram... Also, India banned TikTok, so there's no Indian TikTok accounts pushing alternative viewpoints/hashtags. It's not hard to imagine how that might have led to the observed results, and it's a little odd that ctrl+F-ing "India" produced no result in that report.
theteapot 3y ago
Article states: > ... we replicated TikTok’s own methodology used in its November 13, 2023 letter. So Tiktok's own methodology doesn't make sense? Goes on to say: > NCRI analysts examined the volume of posts on TikTok by hashtag, using the platform’s own ads manager portal. We performed the same analysis using Instagram’s explore feature. Are your 10 shitty videos aren't going to show up on the ad manager portal?

Racing0461 3y ago

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gibbitz 3y ago

If the overall concern is exposure to propaganda, why waste time blocking the holes it comes in through? Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda? I would think this would also help to keep the powers that be in this country in Check as well... I find it worrying that we can see how effective propaganda has been at polarizing our country but no one wants to address all propaganda, just the other side's version. If this were to become a basic core competency in our education system, I guess it would undermine advertising as well, but IMO that would be a plus...

23B1 3y ago
> Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda? Sweet summer child
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
The propaganda is in controlling the dials/levers of what is seen which gives an artificial sense of prevalence. You can tell any story you want- make elderly people beating up young people trend more and people will think it's a common occurrence. I think mandatory transparency into the algos is a start but that assumes nobody tampers behind the scenes which would be trivial w/ software.
- woooooo 3y ago
  There's also the propaganda accusation as propaganda. If TikTok skews young and they have a viewpoint that's different from entrenched power, we can just blame the Chinese.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    If they don't want the accusation they shouldn't commingle civilian enterprise with communist party goals. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/chinese-communist-partys-theory-hybrid-warfare https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/chinese-commun... Edit: They have this and the thousand talents program and then complain that people don't trust them. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-china-threat/chinese-talent-plans https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-chin...

hotdogscout 3y ago

Relevant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine Extremely relevant with each passing year: https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU?si=URc2oDbqWRptJm0s https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU?si=URc2oDbqWRptJm0s

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

Apple, google global platform anomalies align with us geostrategic objectives. I do not know why this is news. Every single large company in every country has strong ties to the govt and works in sync with it. It's not a big secret.

factormeta 3y ago
And Telegram align with Russians. Don't use these Faangish platform period for personal communications. Once there is a user based they will be bought by huge geopolitical influences. Use Matrix, Masterdon, email, phone for communication and only see these platform as publishing platforms to target these specific geopolitical camps.
terminous 3y ago
Sure it may not be a big secret, but I would say that any substantive report about any systematic platform anomalies that align with any geostrategic objectives are relevant posts for HN, be it a platform in the US, China, or any other country. Refusal to discuss any of these because it is something everyone ostensibly knows... Now that is suspicious.

poopiokaka 3y ago

This lab generally puts out mediocre work. Are they self posting here?

mulmen 3y ago

Is this deliberate or the geopolitical equivalent of shipping the org chart?

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago

That's called social engineering, the US also abuses its position as leader to spread their propaganda all around the world Let us not forget about Facebook / Myanmar https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-facebooks-systems-promoted-violence-against-rohingya-meta-owes-reparations-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb... The west calls it "pursuit of profit", i call it intentional social engineering, since we all know most of the social media apps have for "content moderation" team former CIA agents, and part of their existence is due to CIA/NSA research grants/programs, and the US has clear interests in that region, for that one specific case https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... This is why it is important for parents to properly educate their children when it comes to social media, i would personally prohibit them all But let's be honest, TikTok is the least harmful of them all, Twitter and Facebook comes to mind first when it comes to political propaganda, as well as disturbing content Wanting it banned without expecting all the other ones to follow is disingenuous, to say the least, or it is perhaps "propaganda" ;)

invig 3y ago

Give up control of what you are consuming at your own peril.

ramblenode 3y ago

I'm not disinclined to believe that TikTok promotes pro-China sentiment, but this report is far from academically rigorous and has gaping holes in its methodology that would not pass peer review. * Most notable is that the baseline for determining whether a hashtag has been boosted or deboosted on TikTok comes from Instagram---hardly an unbiased source of ground truth, especially in light of the recent allegations that Meta deboosts pro-Palestinian content and other controversial political content. * Worse is that there's no statistical analysis showing that generic political hashtags are significantly different from China-sensitive political hashtags between TikTok and Instagram. There is large variance within categories, and even some of the generic political hashtags show a bigger difference between platforms than the China-sensitive political hashtags. Statistics would help determine whether a real difference exists beyond sampling error, but none are to be found in this report. * No explanation of how the hashtags were determined. They were apparently chosen a priori by the authors, but no criteria for inclusion or exclusion are mentioned. * Other small details like discrepencies between Fig 2. and Fig 3. in describing TikTok as having half the hashtags as Instagram and Instagram has having double the hashtags as TikTok. Overall, this report just seems like fodder for the anti-TikTok crowd, not a dispassionate inquiry into how TikTok trends relfect CCP narrative building.

Morte42 3y ago
The fact that they are using Instagram as a control in the study is hilarious. The standards in these universities are laughable.
- Hnrobert42 3y ago
  One does not necessarily follow from the other.
nneonneo 3y ago
And that’s why it’s being posted as a white paper, not an academic paper. No peer review required!
rutierut 3y ago
> Overall, this report just seems like fodder for the anti-TikTok crowd, Can confirm, I do belong to that crowd and I did share it after reading it. An hour later, it dawned on me that this report is maybe kinda cool, but really isn't enough to draw any conclusions from and I should not have shared it.

phendrenad2 3y ago

Sufficiently advanced gathering places for unpopular opinions are indistinguishable from government propaganda outlets.

api 3y ago

I’m not sure why anyone finds this hard to believe. Do US media companies tend to align with US geostrategic objectives? Now consider that the link between the Chinese state and its companies is much firmer and more authoritarian than it is in the US.

CrzyLngPwd 3y ago

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CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
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kossTKR 3y ago

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japanman185 3y ago

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actuallyrizzn 3y ago

I've worked with NCRI before. I worked on a paper about DAOs, blockchain, memecoins and market manipulation. While it may not be intended to pass peer review, they do bring to light novel concepts and trends and do so in an intellectually honest way... fwiw.

mingKun 3y ago

As a Chinese, I can use YouTube, X, and Instagram, but I can hardly use TikTok,it detect which country my SIM card belongs to. I often come across false content about China on Western social media, which significantly outweighs the real content. Of course, there is about 10% of real content that I cannot access on domestic social media platforms. Regarding China, Western media consists of nearly 80% false content and 20% real content, with the real content being mostly negative. The information about the West in China is similar, where the saying "all crows are black" applies.In the end, we live in a safe authoritarian country. Of course, I wish to live in a true democratic country, but does it exist? The United States? Hilarious.