8 ms·

Maersk and Hapag-Lloyd to avoid Red Sea after surge in missile and drone attacks

100 points by NavinF 3y ago

h2odragon 3y ago
https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/pirate-interdiction.html https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-...
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  This isn't piracy so much as a naval blockade. It is interesting to see the conflict expand to the maritime sector though. Crimping an opponent's supply lines is the classic strategic move. Edit to add that the video put out by the Houthis of a helicopter dropping a combat team onto a ship and seizing control of it was a propaganda masterstroke - exciting, surprising, apparently perfect execution, zero bloodshed.
  - h2odragon 3y ago
    https://news.usni.org/2023/01/05/destroyer-makes-first-u-s-warship-taiwan-strait-transit-of-2023 https://news.usni.org/2023/01/05/destroyer-makes-first-u-s-w... > “Chung-Hoon’s transit through the Taiwan Strait demonstrates the United States’ commitment to a free and open Indo-Pacific,” she said in the statement. “The United States military flies, sails and operates anywhere international law allows.”
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      Not clear on the relevance of this? I'm aware the US Navy operates worldwide but I'm not sure what bearing this has on the Red Sea situation.
  - 2Gkashmiri 3y ago
    As opposed to flotilla raid ?
meepmorp 3y ago
Blocking the way to the Suez seems like a good way to get a visit from your friendly neighborhood carrier strike group.
- ern 3y ago
  That night well be the point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    Why Johnny can't win wars: After the war game was restarted, its participants were forced to follow a script drafted to ensure a Blue Force victory.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ok_dad 3y ago
      Mostly, war games are scripted. When your strategy fails this badly in a less scripted event, you still want to get the personnel in the fleet their training. Do you think they should have just let half the fleet sit doing nothing for two weeks? That’d be a bad idea.
      - anigbrowl 3y ago
        Sure, but restarting was adequate opportunity for that. Or one could have a backup plan.
        ok_dad 3y ago
        This was the backup, they re-floated the ships and reduced the enemy capabilities for the rest of the war-game, to ensure that the personnel got the desired training. You don't train sailors and soldiers to successfully die, or even to kill the enemy, you train them to successfully perform a series of steps under pressure. Goal achieved in 2002. Since then, they took the lessons learned from the first part and figured out how to fight small boats better. I know when I was in the Navy in the decade after 2002 that there was much more focus on small boat defense and a bunch of new weapons and tactics to fight against small boat swarms. That was the purpose of the war-game, and to all accounts it was wildly successful since we learned a big lesson! Don't be an armchair Admiral if you aren't sure why things are done in a certain way in the Navy. This was very publicized as a "failure", but the whole purpose of war-games is to learn new lessons. I would be embarrassed that you mistook this as a failure, and claimed we lost wars because of failures such as this one. The reason we lost recent wars is because there was no goal for those wars, so there was no way to win it. It was a political failure most of all. Vietnam, too. Without a goal, the most well trained militaries can't claim victory.
propercoil 3y ago
The mark for the end of the British empire was said to have happen when they lost control of the Suez canal. Iran is testing if this is the end of the U.S hegemony.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  It seems extraordinarily unlikely that the inevitable fall of the US hegemony will be at the hands of present-day Iran.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    The fall of US hegemony is much more likely going to be the result of the US government abdicating its responsibilities to the world than the result of some other hegemon materially overcoming the US. This is as good an opportunity as any for that to happen.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      If that risk begins to materialize, there is more than sufficient strength among the allied western nations to ensure that the situation proceeds to the “find out” phase.
      - rasz 3y ago
        As it stands western NATO nations are too timid to shoot down an Iranian unmanned loitering munition fired by russia and flying across NATO country to bomb Odessa. According to dpa (German news agency): >russian drones violated Romanian (NATO ) airspace tonight. German interceptors approached the drones, “visually confirmed contact but have not received an order to destroy drones”. So the drones flew further towards Ukraine to kill Ukrainians. One drone exploded in @NATO airspace. https://news.yahoo.com/russian-drone-attack-ukraine-violates-132400471.html https://news.yahoo.com/russian-drone-attack-ukraine-violates... only NATO response was this pathetic: "The ministry strongly condemns the attacks by the Russian Federation on individual objects and elements of civilian infrastructure in Ukrainian ports on the Danube,” In case you think shooting it down would be bad here is some contrast from Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shoo... russia understands only violence, nothing else matters.
s5300 3y ago
[dead]
wolverine876 3y ago
> "Ensuring the safety of our employees is of the utmost importance and our number one priority ..." What is Maersk's reputation for crew safety in other situations, such as regular operations?
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Pretty good considering the rest of the industry. The bad ships are typically going to be older and owned by a layer cake of shell companies instead of a famous shipping line.
mupuff1234 3y ago
[flagged]
- mattnewton 3y ago
  War is incredibly costly in terms of lives and money? And we haven’t exhausted diplomacy?
  - mupuff1234 3y ago
    Is it? The first phase of operation iraqi freedom took about a month before the iraqi army was no more and had very little casualties. [0] I'm not even saying destroy their army, just destroy their advanced capabilities and let them know that if they try to build or acquire anything that is more than a rifle it will be immediately destroyed. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#:~:text=In%20the%20invasion%20phase%20of,and%2033%20UK%20military%20personnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#:~:text=In%20the%20in....
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      George W. Bush forgot about the "now what" part of that war of aggression on a former ally, though.
      - mupuff1234 3y ago
        Now nothing, they can keep on with their live, they just can't have fancy military toys unless they move towards a more liberal and democratic path.
        omeid2 3y ago
        Yeah, right. Because the Al-Qaeda and ISIS affilated Taliban are more Liberal and Democratic that US signed an agreement with them and handed over Afghanistan to them.
        mangamadaiyan 3y ago
reducesuffering 3y ago
Just in case it’s not obvious yet, The End of the World [order] Is Just Beginning.
- 15457345234 3y ago
  The ships are only stopped until Monday. Don't talk this up into something that it isn't. Lot of people seem really eager to cheer on the end of the world, pandemics, runaway inflation, carnage etc. Really tedious. Same as during the early days of the Ukraine war there was so much misinformation posted about grain, grain yields, etc, making it seem like a permanent quadrupling in grain prices would occur. It didn't. The misinformation was called out. Odd that some people seem so eager to see others suffering. Really odd.
  - dsign 3y ago
    Odd? No. It’s basically every form of popular fiction. (There are tons of fiction that can be written without the suffering, but it is not in fashion right now).
  - citrin_ru 3y ago
    > Ukraine war there was so much misinformation posted about grain, grain yields, etc, making it seem like a permanent quadrupling in grain prices would occur. Prices didn’t quadrupled but they stayed very high for a few months in 2022 and recovered to pre-war prices very slow. It was not a problem for rich countries but affected many developing ones, especially in Africa.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    "U.S. Officials have stated that Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin is preparing to Announce a Major Multinational Mission named “Operation Prosperity Guardian” during his Visit to the Middle East this coming week, with the Goal of the Operation being to Counter the ongoing Drone and Missile Threat by the Houthi Terrorist Group against Commercial Shipping in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden." This is just another deepening crack. Ukraine, Gaza, Myanmar, Sudan, Nagorno-Karabakh, Guyana, Armenia, Taiwan. https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1736141595026538795 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1736141595026538795

100 points by NavinF 3y ago

https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/pirate-interdiction.html https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-...

anigbrowl 3y ago
This isn't piracy so much as a naval blockade. It is interesting to see the conflict expand to the maritime sector though. Crimping an opponent's supply lines is the classic strategic move. Edit to add that the video put out by the Houthis of a helicopter dropping a combat team onto a ship and seizing control of it was a propaganda masterstroke - exciting, surprising, apparently perfect execution, zero bloodshed.
- h2odragon 3y ago
  https://news.usni.org/2023/01/05/destroyer-makes-first-u-s-warship-taiwan-strait-transit-of-2023 https://news.usni.org/2023/01/05/destroyer-makes-first-u-s-w... > “Chung-Hoon’s transit through the Taiwan Strait demonstrates the United States’ commitment to a free and open Indo-Pacific,” she said in the statement. “The United States military flies, sails and operates anywhere international law allows.”
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    Not clear on the relevance of this? I'm aware the US Navy operates worldwide but I'm not sure what bearing this has on the Red Sea situation.
- 2Gkashmiri 3y ago
  As opposed to flotilla raid ?

meepmorp 3y ago

Blocking the way to the Suez seems like a good way to get a visit from your friendly neighborhood carrier strike group.

ern 3y ago
That night well be the point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Why Johnny can't win wars: After the war game was restarted, its participants were forced to follow a script drafted to ensure a Blue Force victory.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ok_dad 3y ago
    Mostly, war games are scripted. When your strategy fails this badly in a less scripted event, you still want to get the personnel in the fleet their training. Do you think they should have just let half the fleet sit doing nothing for two weeks? That’d be a bad idea.
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      Sure, but restarting was adequate opportunity for that. Or one could have a backup plan.
      - ok_dad 3y ago
        This was the backup, they re-floated the ships and reduced the enemy capabilities for the rest of the war-game, to ensure that the personnel got the desired training. You don't train sailors and soldiers to successfully die, or even to kill the enemy, you train them to successfully perform a series of steps under pressure. Goal achieved in 2002. Since then, they took the lessons learned from the first part and figured out how to fight small boats better. I know when I was in the Navy in the decade after 2002 that there was much more focus on small boat defense and a bunch of new weapons and tactics to fight against small boat swarms. That was the purpose of the war-game, and to all accounts it was wildly successful since we learned a big lesson! Don't be an armchair Admiral if you aren't sure why things are done in a certain way in the Navy. This was very publicized as a "failure", but the whole purpose of war-games is to learn new lessons. I would be embarrassed that you mistook this as a failure, and claimed we lost wars because of failures such as this one. The reason we lost recent wars is because there was no goal for those wars, so there was no way to win it. It was a political failure most of all. Vietnam, too. Without a goal, the most well trained militaries can't claim victory.

propercoil 3y ago

The mark for the end of the British empire was said to have happen when they lost control of the Suez canal. Iran is testing if this is the end of the U.S hegemony.

sokoloff 3y ago
It seems extraordinarily unlikely that the inevitable fall of the US hegemony will be at the hands of present-day Iran.
- philwelch 3y ago
  The fall of US hegemony is much more likely going to be the result of the US government abdicating its responsibilities to the world than the result of some other hegemon materially overcoming the US. This is as good an opportunity as any for that to happen.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    If that risk begins to materialize, there is more than sufficient strength among the allied western nations to ensure that the situation proceeds to the “find out” phase.
    - rasz 3y ago
      As it stands western NATO nations are too timid to shoot down an Iranian unmanned loitering munition fired by russia and flying across NATO country to bomb Odessa. According to dpa (German news agency): >russian drones violated Romanian (NATO ) airspace tonight. German interceptors approached the drones, “visually confirmed contact but have not received an order to destroy drones”. So the drones flew further towards Ukraine to kill Ukrainians. One drone exploded in @NATO airspace. https://news.yahoo.com/russian-drone-attack-ukraine-violates-132400471.html https://news.yahoo.com/russian-drone-attack-ukraine-violates... only NATO response was this pathetic: "The ministry strongly condemns the attacks by the Russian Federation on individual objects and elements of civilian infrastructure in Ukrainian ports on the Danube,” In case you think shooting it down would be bad here is some contrast from Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shoo... russia understands only violence, nothing else matters.

s5300 3y ago

[dead]

wolverine876 3y ago

> "Ensuring the safety of our employees is of the utmost importance and our number one priority ..." What is Maersk's reputation for crew safety in other situations, such as regular operations?

dghlsakjg 3y ago
Pretty good considering the rest of the industry. The bad ships are typically going to be older and owned by a layer cake of shell companies instead of a famous shipping line.

mupuff1234 3y ago

[flagged]

mattnewton 3y ago
War is incredibly costly in terms of lives and money? And we haven’t exhausted diplomacy?
- mupuff1234 3y ago
  Is it? The first phase of operation iraqi freedom took about a month before the iraqi army was no more and had very little casualties. [0] I'm not even saying destroy their army, just destroy their advanced capabilities and let them know that if they try to build or acquire anything that is more than a rifle it will be immediately destroyed. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#:~:text=In%20the%20invasion%20phase%20of,and%2033%20UK%20military%20personnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#:~:text=In%20the%20in....
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    George W. Bush forgot about the "now what" part of that war of aggression on a former ally, though.
    - mupuff1234 3y ago
      Now nothing, they can keep on with their live, they just can't have fancy military toys unless they move towards a more liberal and democratic path.
      - omeid2 3y ago
        Yeah, right. Because the Al-Qaeda and ISIS affilated Taliban are more Liberal and Democratic that US signed an agreement with them and handed over Afghanistan to them.
      - mangamadaiyan 3y ago

reducesuffering 3y ago

Just in case it’s not obvious yet, The End of the World [order] Is Just Beginning.

15457345234 3y ago
The ships are only stopped until Monday. Don't talk this up into something that it isn't. Lot of people seem really eager to cheer on the end of the world, pandemics, runaway inflation, carnage etc. Really tedious. Same as during the early days of the Ukraine war there was so much misinformation posted about grain, grain yields, etc, making it seem like a permanent quadrupling in grain prices would occur. It didn't. The misinformation was called out. Odd that some people seem so eager to see others suffering. Really odd.
- dsign 3y ago
  Odd? No. It’s basically every form of popular fiction. (There are tons of fiction that can be written without the suffering, but it is not in fashion right now).
- citrin_ru 3y ago
  > Ukraine war there was so much misinformation posted about grain, grain yields, etc, making it seem like a permanent quadrupling in grain prices would occur. Prices didn’t quadrupled but they stayed very high for a few months in 2022 and recovered to pre-war prices very slow. It was not a problem for rich countries but affected many developing ones, especially in Africa.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  "U.S. Officials have stated that Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin is preparing to Announce a Major Multinational Mission named “Operation Prosperity Guardian” during his Visit to the Middle East this coming week, with the Goal of the Operation being to Counter the ongoing Drone and Missile Threat by the Houthi Terrorist Group against Commercial Shipping in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden." This is just another deepening crack. Ukraine, Gaza, Myanmar, Sudan, Nagorno-Karabakh, Guyana, Armenia, Taiwan. https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1736141595026538795 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1736141595026538795