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Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

155 points by rgbrgb 3y ago

cush 3y ago
At least we can all safely agree that naming things is hard.
filoleg 3y ago
Note: “tesla recalls” == “tesla pushes OTA software update (just like any regular OTA update)”
- sidcool 3y ago
  I commented on a post on X stating about the recall. I said that it's an OTA. But many people said technically it's a recall.
  - vorticalbox 3y ago
    Is it? I don't see android "recalling" android devices every update.
    - ahahahahah 3y ago
      Yes, it is. A recall is about the fact that there are unsafe devices, not about how they get fixed. > A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards
      - sidcool 3y ago
        Yeah, technically it is called a recall because of NHTSA's terminology. But it's not a recall in traditional sense. It's an OTA, where customer's cars don't have to be physically recalled.
    - contravariant 3y ago
      Android is not the agent there. A phone manufacturer could and should recall devices they send out if they turn out to have some serious flaw. It's fine if they can push the update remotely, but if it's something that warrants a recall they should at least check with everyone that they managed to install the update. Of course by now we've accepted security bugs as just the normal state of things, so it's hard to think of something serious enough to warrant a recall. An overheating battery perhaps, assuming it can be solved with a software update.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  gotta love the NYT for accurate headlines
  - kristofferR 3y ago
    It's not incorrect, it's just confusing: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/24/is-recall-really-the-right-word-in-the-era-of-auto-over-the-air-updates/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/24/is-recall-really-the-ri...
    - trident5000 3y ago
      The NYT is more than capable of making a clear headline. These are not stupid people. But they do have goals.
      - nickthegreek 3y ago
        The headline is perfectly clear and is not using language in a new way. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issues recalls for safety related issues. The way the manufacture resolves the issues can differ.
        sickofparadox 3y ago
        If the average user on HN needs an explanation that a word in a title actually has a completely different effective meaning, I'd say that it is unlikely to be a clear title.
        toast0 3y ago
        I agree, Tesla should change the name of their driver assistance suite.
        nickthegreek 3y ago
        I see no evidence that the average user on HN needed an explanation. I think a small minority needed one. Here is Tesla's recall page: https://www.tesla.com/support/annual-and-recall-service https://www.tesla.com/support/annual-and-recall-service Several of these were fixed with OTA updates. Tesla doesn't seem to be confused on the meaning of the word. This very site has had these exact OTA recall submissions for years.
- Oras 3y ago
  From the article: > Tesla began issuing an “over-the-air software remedy” to certain vehicles on Tuesday, safety officials said. The remaining vehicles will receive software updates later, and all updates will be free for the cars’ owners. I was confused as to why Tesla needs to "recall" when they can do OTA update. The title is misleading surprise
  - solardev 3y ago
    It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)
    - Oras 3y ago
      > It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. And how does this "recall" work? Is it physically taking the car to a branch to apply the update? I'm curious to know.
      - acdha 3y ago
        It can be over the air but calling it a recall also brings notification requirements and means that if you bring it in to the service department they’ll do it for you, too.
      - solardev 3y ago
        It's an OTA update, as you know. It's great that they can do this. It's just a semantic thing. I think the actual mechanism (that there is a regulatory body that can force auto makers to improve safety, whether OTA or in the shop) is cool, but I agree that the word "recall" is confusing. It's just a holdover from old processes. Maybe the terminology will change in time. Probably not.
      - hiddencost 3y ago
- rgbrgb 3y ago
  Yeah I was wondering about that too. I got a software update that seemed to add auto steer to my non-self-driving model y. I tried it a few times on the highway but it seemed erratic (switching off randomly and dangerously engaging regenerative brakes in the fast lane). Won’t be trying again until next update (if it sticks in the car). edit: corrected autopilot (cruise control) -> self driving
  - chankstein38 3y ago
    I don't own a Tesla but when I was a kid we had Sega Channel and I remember waking up on the first day of a new cycle, excited to see what games had randomly been chosen to be listed. This is how I imagine update day going with a Tesla lol "Did they include any exciting features? Take anything good away? Gotta wake up and go find out!"
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I hope this is in jest, and I’m assuming it is. The fact that this is even allowed to happen is bewildering to me. The fact that the car can perform totally different from one day to the next because of an OTA update you knew nothing about is insane. Even if there are UI notifications on the 65” TV in the console, NOBODY reads them. They just scroll through and click accept/okay as quickly as possible. They are already late for work, and still have to drop off the ankle biters at daycare. “Sorry boss, but I would have been here on time if I hadn’t been forced to read a new EULA on my car”
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        IDK, there've been a lot of nice quality of life improvements in those updates over the years. Eg, moving wiper controls to the buttons and configurable quick controls. The cameras have improved quite a bit from software updates too. And obviously there are more basic things too, such as updates to media apps and better integration with MyQ garage door openers.
      - MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
        When you buy a Tesla you are signing up for this. Some people don't like it but many do. (Most of these changes are genuine improvements.) There are plenty of competitors out there if you prefer to go without such a feature.
- seeekr 3y ago
  I think at some point the absurdity of the numbers (now it's 2M, soon it'll be 10M, 50M, ...) will become so great that NHTSA will stop calling this a "recall", and then this term will no longer be usable for clickbait article titles. Absurdity because it'll get harder and harder to imagine how a company might bring in millions and millions of vehicles in for service repeatedly, from a logistics and cost perspective, and still be able to grow and make a good profit.
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    >and then this term will no longer be usable for clickbait article titles. It's not clickbait, that's ridiculous. The essence of the article is the results of the investigation. NHSTA has a process, they investigated and issued a recall. The fact that it can be fixed OTA doesn't change the intent of what's happening. I mean, at what point does the first comment stop being, "It's not a recall!" Who cares. I'm more interested in the obvious questions, like: does the update actually make anything safer? If it's so easy, why didn't Tesla do it on their own?
    - solardev 3y ago
      > If it's so easy, why didn't Tesla do it on their own? It's situations like this that make me not trust Tesla and Musk. I always feel like they're misrepresenting the vehicle's capabilities, and I have no idea what I'm actually getting in terms of autopilot capabilities. When I rode in a friend's Tesla, the real time display of the sensors did not inspire confidence. It missed a lot of cars and pedestrians. I think the technology has a lot of transformative potential, but between their continuous hype over substance, ripping out lidar to be cheap, etc., it's just really hard to trust them.
    - acdha 3y ago
      > I'm more interested in the obvious questions, like: does the update actually make anything safer? If it's so easy, why didn't Tesla do it on their own? Tesla has advertised many features which do not work reliably or, in some cases, at all. If they don’t want to admit that, they’re going to resist - especially if it’s going to fuel a class action lawsuit claiming that this feature is not in the state it was sold as. The NHTSA does not have that conflicting set of incentives.
- cush 3y ago
  Just because a manufacturer applies a fix OTA doesn’t make it not a recall. Recall is just a term. Regulators issue the recall. How the manufacturer performs the fix can vary.
  - LordKeren 3y ago
    Yeah, but it is plainly obvious that “recall” is a loaded term here. Yes, it is strictly true that it is the name for the thing that regulators are saying— But nothing is getting “recalled” in the literal meaning of the word. “Tesla ships mandatory software update OTA to address bug” is much more accurate to how this affects real people.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      It is loaded. It means a critical safety issue has been found by the government and they’re forcing it to be fixed. That comes with various timeline and notification requirements. That’s all it means. Whether or not you have to drive to a specific building to get it done is not and never has been a requirement of the recall process. That’s just how automakers have done it, mostly out of lack of OTA and unwillingness to send techs to invidual peoples houses.
      - light_hue_1 3y ago
        We need a different word. This is not a recall.
        chrisco255 3y ago
        Software update with a critical fix?
        cush 3y ago
        How would you manage this? If a recall is ordered, and a OTA update is possible… undo the recall and change the name of the recall…? Again there’s no way for the regulator to know how the recall should be fixed. It makes no sense to give it a different name just to appease the semantics of not actually driving the car to a shop to fix the problem.
- itslennysfault 3y ago
  I appreciate the clarification here. I read this headline this morning and it made me think they had to "(physically) recall 2M vehicles" as-in take them off the road completely. With a cup of coffee it feels a bit more like "take them into a service center to fix them" but even that is far larger than the truth.
  - cush 3y ago
    That’s not how recalls usually work anyways. The cars aren’t pulled off the road. You usually get a letter or email then schedule a service. Happened with my Outback a few years ago… some battery drain thing. I took it in a few months after getting the email.
    - itslennysfault 3y ago
      Yeah, like I said. After coffee I realized it wasn't them being pulled off the road like when a drug or food is recalled. I've received those letters, but the wording of the headline made it seem like the whole vehicle was recalled on the surface, and it was what I assumed until I took a second to think about it and realize it was likely a letter in the mail and a service center visit, but in reality it is even less. Just a software patch that is basically invisible to the user.
- jillesvangurp 3y ago
  > The update will add new, more prominent visual alerts and checks for the Autosteer function, which is part of Autopilot. Nothing was actually broken but regulators just insist on more alerts and Tesla just implemented those and is rolling them out with a routine software update. But that's a less dramatic headline. Actual recalls are less frequent unless there is a hardware problem like the wheels falling of a toyota: https://electrek.co/2022/06/23/toyota-recalls-bz4x-electric-cars-wheels-falling-off/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/23/toyota-recalls-bz4x-electric-... Some, manufacturers of course don't have the ability to do OTA updates for their cars and need to recall the car to perform software updates. Especially firmware of components sourced from third parties (e.g. engine software) is usually a bit more tricky. Even with manufacturers that do have OTA updates, it's often limited to just the entertainment software. Tesla doesn't have that issue because they design components in house and don't have a lot of external software suppliers (if any at all). So, they can fix just about any software issue with over the air updates and make the car better over time. Some of the Chinese EV manufacturers do the same. But more manufacturers should do that.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    This is a very biased reading of things. "Tesla recall: nothing actually broken" "Other manufacturer recalls: wheels falling off" If I look at the recalls for my cars, they're far more mundane. "A passenger detection module may not detect a passenger. The vehicle will automatically deploy air bags in that seat position". "The passenger side camera may get foggy in cold weather". And I don't think throwing shade at Toyota there helps a lot. Perhaps remember that Tesla has shipped vehicles with missing brake pads, unglued windshields, etc.
    - sockaddr 3y ago
      Yup A bad if/else is equivalent to a broken physical part if it controls a physical part. Also, these OTAs have a habit of breaking other things on my car along the way. It's just slop all the way through.
  - didntknowya 3y ago
    the fact that it can be easily modified OTA is a red flag enough that Tesla is pushing software out without the same level of testing hardware does. shipping a MVP in the hopes it doesn't' cause an accident isn't exactly best practice.
- ahahahahah 3y ago
  You clearly don't know what recall means as your statement is completely wrong. The recall is not equivalent to how it's resolved. You could turn that into an arrow instead. I.e. due to the recall, Tesla is pushing an ota that will address the safety concerns. To help you better understand in the future: > A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards.
- khaki54 3y ago
  I think they wrote this _technically true_ but falsely framed headline just because they are so angry with Elon. "Government Regulators Force Tesla to Add New Warning Language to Autopilot Software" would be so much more accurate, but wouldn't have the same negative connotation
  - mikrotikker 3y ago
    Yea thats my take too.. he's stepping on toes and trying to remove the undue influence advertisers and others have on free speech. I hope it works. Twitter should be exporting the first amendment to the rest of the world - prudes and religious sensibilities be damned.
dharmab 3y ago
The recall report: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF This recall is specifically targeted at the system that monitors if the driver is paying attention.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Thank you, the report itself is more useful than most of the news articles. TBH, this sounds like... not much. The alerts will be louder and more prominent, and maybe it can't be turned on close to stop signs or traffic lights now. Not that engaging it there was normal before. :shrug The so-called "FSD" feature seems to be unaffected, since its operational domain was already different.
- flutas 3y ago
  So when is Toyota (the only other system I have experience with) going to be recalled? Their system is worse than Tesla's and will just randomly disable itself with zero alerts.
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    > will just randomly disable itself with zero alerts. That's how it encourages the driver to pay attention!
Xenoamorphous 3y ago
Dupe? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652
martini333 3y ago
"Owner notification letters will be mailed in accordance with 49 C.F.R. § 577.7." That's a lot of mail...
- agloe_dreams 3y ago
  What is that, a quarter million min in postage alone?
  - itslennysfault 3y ago
    That is what a company like this calls "budget dust"
- electrondood 3y ago
  It's so stupid. Or... they could just display the change notes on the dash when they push a software update.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Here’s the actual legal requirement: > In the case of a notification required to be sent by a motor vehicle manufacturer, by certified mail, verifiable electronic means such as receipts or logs from electronic mail or satellite distribution system, or other more expeditious and verifiable means to all dealers and distributors of the vehicles that contain the defect or noncompliance. I think that would cover them having a pop up on the dashboard as long as they were confident that the driver couldn’t miss it and they could log that it was seen.
sschueller 3y ago
Such OTA's by auto makers should be required to be reviewed by a 3rd party. A bad update can kill people. I assume OTAs for planes have a strict process defined or approved by the FAA which needs to be followed. Does the NTSB have such a thing in place or is it just the wild west?
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  Better yet, how about some dumb cars where you can't be killed by software code... there's no need for all these computers in cars these days. Keep it simple stupid. I think they just want to inflate the prices so much with all these extra useless features to force unequal access to personal transport.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    It's all about cost-effective improvement in sellable stats. Getting a little more horsepower; handling a little better; braking a little better. Easier to do with software than some mechanical device. Conspiracy theories aren't necessary. Just regular competitive market forces will explain it.
    - mikrotikker 3y ago
      It's not a conspiracy theory when cars are so expensive whole classes of people are excluded from the market.
bannedbybros 3y ago
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yallneedtoget 3y ago
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syngrog66 3y ago
in other news the world's 50 billion-ish Linux, Windows and Apple devices have also all been "recalled" hundreds of times in the last few years alone
- strofcon 3y ago
  I too enjoy putting "quotes" around a word to make it seem like it means the thing I want to pretend it means, instead of engaging honestly with the actual situation. :-)
- trust_bt_verify 3y ago
  Regulators forced them to update their product to mitigate a safety issue that was found? Or maybe you are misunderstanding the correct usage of ‘recall’ in the article and are applying it incorrectly to other situations.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652
_ea1k 3y ago
To be rolled out in "2023.44.30" -- soon as part of the annual holiday update, which will get hype as a holiday update instead of a recall. Nicely planned from a PR perspective. :)
Mobil1 3y ago
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LoganDark 3y ago
Updates, not recalls. A software update shouldn't be called a recall.
- strofcon 3y ago
  It should when it's required by the NHTSA and comes along with mandatory reporting, notification, and deadline obligations, along with optional free on-site execution of the fix. That's what makes it a recall. A software update is the mechanism, the recall is the "Tesla did something wrong and is being held accountable" part.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    I'm not saying it shouldn't count as a recall, but for the consumer it's just an update.
    - sentientslug 3y ago
      I'm not sure there is a need for a distinction here, legally it is considered a recall whether or not it can be resolved with an update.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        I meant the title of the article probably should have used the term "update". To someone like me who doesn't know anything about vehicles, I was totally confused to see Tesla "recalling" vehicles over software.
Symmetry 3y ago
Level 2 and 3 automation are just not something you can reasonably expect humans to be able to participate in. If you're not providing input you're not going to be paying enough attention. https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-levels.html https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-level...
avgDev 3y ago
I'm surprised by the inability of many HN'ers to understand what a "recall" means. How you fix it doesn't matter. OTA or dealer visit recall is a recall.
fleeno 3y ago
From my Model Y manual: "Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver. Do not use Autosteer in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present." GM and Ford both restrict their systems to controlled access highways, and are hands free when doing so. I wish Tesla would do something similar.
leetgirl83 3y ago
Seriously, why can't the headline just say "Tesla to issue Autopilot software update for 2M vehicles"? As if the purpose of the headline is just to make people think this is a massive product recall.
- trogdor 3y ago
  Because it is a recall, and your suggested headline would be misleading. Tesla routinely pushes software updates. This one, however, is different. It’s the result of a multi-year NHTSA investigation, and it’s legally a recall. The National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act gives NHTSA the authority to require manufacturers to recall vehicles that have safety-related defects. Just because this recall is being addressed through an OTA software update doesn’t make it not a recall.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  Because "they" are pissed at Elon and his antics. He destroyed their propaganda platform and exposed the propaganda pushers. Now he's shitting on advertisers for extorting the platform. A story like this has an effect on stock prices. It's all they can do to try to hurt him since he has so much "fuck you" money.

155 points by rgbrgb 3y ago

cush 3y ago

At least we can all safely agree that naming things is hard.

filoleg 3y ago

Note: “tesla recalls” == “tesla pushes OTA software update (just like any regular OTA update)”

sidcool 3y ago
I commented on a post on X stating about the recall. I said that it's an OTA. But many people said technically it's a recall.
- vorticalbox 3y ago
  Is it? I don't see android "recalling" android devices every update.
  - ahahahahah 3y ago
    Yes, it is. A recall is about the fact that there are unsafe devices, not about how they get fixed. > A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards
    - sidcool 3y ago
      Yeah, technically it is called a recall because of NHTSA's terminology. But it's not a recall in traditional sense. It's an OTA, where customer's cars don't have to be physically recalled.
  - contravariant 3y ago
    Android is not the agent there. A phone manufacturer could and should recall devices they send out if they turn out to have some serious flaw. It's fine if they can push the update remotely, but if it's something that warrants a recall they should at least check with everyone that they managed to install the update. Of course by now we've accepted security bugs as just the normal state of things, so it's hard to think of something serious enough to warrant a recall. An overheating battery perhaps, assuming it can be solved with a software update.
ekianjo 3y ago
gotta love the NYT for accurate headlines
- kristofferR 3y ago
  It's not incorrect, it's just confusing: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/24/is-recall-really-the-right-word-in-the-era-of-auto-over-the-air-updates/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/24/is-recall-really-the-ri...
  - trident5000 3y ago
    The NYT is more than capable of making a clear headline. These are not stupid people. But they do have goals.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      The headline is perfectly clear and is not using language in a new way. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issues recalls for safety related issues. The way the manufacture resolves the issues can differ.
      - sickofparadox 3y ago
        If the average user on HN needs an explanation that a word in a title actually has a completely different effective meaning, I'd say that it is unlikely to be a clear title.
        toast0 3y ago
        I agree, Tesla should change the name of their driver assistance suite.
        nickthegreek 3y ago
        I see no evidence that the average user on HN needed an explanation. I think a small minority needed one. Here is Tesla's recall page: https://www.tesla.com/support/annual-and-recall-service https://www.tesla.com/support/annual-and-recall-service Several of these were fixed with OTA updates. Tesla doesn't seem to be confused on the meaning of the word. This very site has had these exact OTA recall submissions for years.
Oras 3y ago
From the article: > Tesla began issuing an “over-the-air software remedy” to certain vehicles on Tuesday, safety officials said. The remaining vehicles will receive software updates later, and all updates will be free for the cars’ owners. I was confused as to why Tesla needs to "recall" when they can do OTA update. The title is misleading surprise
- solardev 3y ago
  It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)
  - Oras 3y ago
    > It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. And how does this "recall" work? Is it physically taking the car to a branch to apply the update? I'm curious to know.
    - acdha 3y ago
      It can be over the air but calling it a recall also brings notification requirements and means that if you bring it in to the service department they’ll do it for you, too.
    - solardev 3y ago
      It's an OTA update, as you know. It's great that they can do this. It's just a semantic thing. I think the actual mechanism (that there is a regulatory body that can force auto makers to improve safety, whether OTA or in the shop) is cool, but I agree that the word "recall" is confusing. It's just a holdover from old processes. Maybe the terminology will change in time. Probably not.
    - hiddencost 3y ago
rgbrgb 3y ago
Yeah I was wondering about that too. I got a software update that seemed to add auto steer to my non-self-driving model y. I tried it a few times on the highway but it seemed erratic (switching off randomly and dangerously engaging regenerative brakes in the fast lane). Won’t be trying again until next update (if it sticks in the car). edit: corrected autopilot (cruise control) -> self driving
- chankstein38 3y ago
  I don't own a Tesla but when I was a kid we had Sega Channel and I remember waking up on the first day of a new cycle, excited to see what games had randomly been chosen to be listed. This is how I imagine update day going with a Tesla lol "Did they include any exciting features? Take anything good away? Gotta wake up and go find out!"
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I hope this is in jest, and I’m assuming it is. The fact that this is even allowed to happen is bewildering to me. The fact that the car can perform totally different from one day to the next because of an OTA update you knew nothing about is insane. Even if there are UI notifications on the 65” TV in the console, NOBODY reads them. They just scroll through and click accept/okay as quickly as possible. They are already late for work, and still have to drop off the ankle biters at daycare. “Sorry boss, but I would have been here on time if I hadn’t been forced to read a new EULA on my car”
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      IDK, there've been a lot of nice quality of life improvements in those updates over the years. Eg, moving wiper controls to the buttons and configurable quick controls. The cameras have improved quite a bit from software updates too. And obviously there are more basic things too, such as updates to media apps and better integration with MyQ garage door openers.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
      When you buy a Tesla you are signing up for this. Some people don't like it but many do. (Most of these changes are genuine improvements.) There are plenty of competitors out there if you prefer to go without such a feature.
seeekr 3y ago
I think at some point the absurdity of the numbers (now it's 2M, soon it'll be 10M, 50M, ...) will become so great that NHTSA will stop calling this a "recall", and then this term will no longer be usable for clickbait article titles. Absurdity because it'll get harder and harder to imagine how a company might bring in millions and millions of vehicles in for service repeatedly, from a logistics and cost perspective, and still be able to grow and make a good profit.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >and then this term will no longer be usable for clickbait article titles. It's not clickbait, that's ridiculous. The essence of the article is the results of the investigation. NHSTA has a process, they investigated and issued a recall. The fact that it can be fixed OTA doesn't change the intent of what's happening. I mean, at what point does the first comment stop being, "It's not a recall!" Who cares. I'm more interested in the obvious questions, like: does the update actually make anything safer? If it's so easy, why didn't Tesla do it on their own?
  - solardev 3y ago
    > If it's so easy, why didn't Tesla do it on their own? It's situations like this that make me not trust Tesla and Musk. I always feel like they're misrepresenting the vehicle's capabilities, and I have no idea what I'm actually getting in terms of autopilot capabilities. When I rode in a friend's Tesla, the real time display of the sensors did not inspire confidence. It missed a lot of cars and pedestrians. I think the technology has a lot of transformative potential, but between their continuous hype over substance, ripping out lidar to be cheap, etc., it's just really hard to trust them.
  - acdha 3y ago
    > I'm more interested in the obvious questions, like: does the update actually make anything safer? If it's so easy, why didn't Tesla do it on their own? Tesla has advertised many features which do not work reliably or, in some cases, at all. If they don’t want to admit that, they’re going to resist - especially if it’s going to fuel a class action lawsuit claiming that this feature is not in the state it was sold as. The NHTSA does not have that conflicting set of incentives.
cush 3y ago
Just because a manufacturer applies a fix OTA doesn’t make it not a recall. Recall is just a term. Regulators issue the recall. How the manufacturer performs the fix can vary.
- LordKeren 3y ago
  Yeah, but it is plainly obvious that “recall” is a loaded term here. Yes, it is strictly true that it is the name for the thing that regulators are saying— But nothing is getting “recalled” in the literal meaning of the word. “Tesla ships mandatory software update OTA to address bug” is much more accurate to how this affects real people.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    It is loaded. It means a critical safety issue has been found by the government and they’re forcing it to be fixed. That comes with various timeline and notification requirements. That’s all it means. Whether or not you have to drive to a specific building to get it done is not and never has been a requirement of the recall process. That’s just how automakers have done it, mostly out of lack of OTA and unwillingness to send techs to invidual peoples houses.
    - light_hue_1 3y ago
      We need a different word. This is not a recall.
      - chrisco255 3y ago
        Software update with a critical fix?
      - cush 3y ago
        How would you manage this? If a recall is ordered, and a OTA update is possible… undo the recall and change the name of the recall…? Again there’s no way for the regulator to know how the recall should be fixed. It makes no sense to give it a different name just to appease the semantics of not actually driving the car to a shop to fix the problem.
itslennysfault 3y ago
I appreciate the clarification here. I read this headline this morning and it made me think they had to "(physically) recall 2M vehicles" as-in take them off the road completely. With a cup of coffee it feels a bit more like "take them into a service center to fix them" but even that is far larger than the truth.
- cush 3y ago
  That’s not how recalls usually work anyways. The cars aren’t pulled off the road. You usually get a letter or email then schedule a service. Happened with my Outback a few years ago… some battery drain thing. I took it in a few months after getting the email.
  - itslennysfault 3y ago
    Yeah, like I said. After coffee I realized it wasn't them being pulled off the road like when a drug or food is recalled. I've received those letters, but the wording of the headline made it seem like the whole vehicle was recalled on the surface, and it was what I assumed until I took a second to think about it and realize it was likely a letter in the mail and a service center visit, but in reality it is even less. Just a software patch that is basically invisible to the user.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
> The update will add new, more prominent visual alerts and checks for the Autosteer function, which is part of Autopilot. Nothing was actually broken but regulators just insist on more alerts and Tesla just implemented those and is rolling them out with a routine software update. But that's a less dramatic headline. Actual recalls are less frequent unless there is a hardware problem like the wheels falling of a toyota: https://electrek.co/2022/06/23/toyota-recalls-bz4x-electric-cars-wheels-falling-off/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/23/toyota-recalls-bz4x-electric-... Some, manufacturers of course don't have the ability to do OTA updates for their cars and need to recall the car to perform software updates. Especially firmware of components sourced from third parties (e.g. engine software) is usually a bit more tricky. Even with manufacturers that do have OTA updates, it's often limited to just the entertainment software. Tesla doesn't have that issue because they design components in house and don't have a lot of external software suppliers (if any at all). So, they can fix just about any software issue with over the air updates and make the car better over time. Some of the Chinese EV manufacturers do the same. But more manufacturers should do that.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  This is a very biased reading of things. "Tesla recall: nothing actually broken" "Other manufacturer recalls: wheels falling off" If I look at the recalls for my cars, they're far more mundane. "A passenger detection module may not detect a passenger. The vehicle will automatically deploy air bags in that seat position". "The passenger side camera may get foggy in cold weather". And I don't think throwing shade at Toyota there helps a lot. Perhaps remember that Tesla has shipped vehicles with missing brake pads, unglued windshields, etc.
  - sockaddr 3y ago
    Yup A bad if/else is equivalent to a broken physical part if it controls a physical part. Also, these OTAs have a habit of breaking other things on my car along the way. It's just slop all the way through.
- didntknowya 3y ago
  the fact that it can be easily modified OTA is a red flag enough that Tesla is pushing software out without the same level of testing hardware does. shipping a MVP in the hopes it doesn't' cause an accident isn't exactly best practice.
ahahahahah 3y ago
You clearly don't know what recall means as your statement is completely wrong. The recall is not equivalent to how it's resolved. You could turn that into an arrow instead. I.e. due to the recall, Tesla is pushing an ota that will address the safety concerns. To help you better understand in the future: > A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards.
khaki54 3y ago
I think they wrote this _technically true_ but falsely framed headline just because they are so angry with Elon. "Government Regulators Force Tesla to Add New Warning Language to Autopilot Software" would be so much more accurate, but wouldn't have the same negative connotation
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  Yea thats my take too.. he's stepping on toes and trying to remove the undue influence advertisers and others have on free speech. I hope it works. Twitter should be exporting the first amendment to the rest of the world - prudes and religious sensibilities be damned.

dharmab 3y ago

The recall report: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF This recall is specifically targeted at the system that monitors if the driver is paying attention.

_ea1k 3y ago
Thank you, the report itself is more useful than most of the news articles. TBH, this sounds like... not much. The alerts will be louder and more prominent, and maybe it can't be turned on close to stop signs or traffic lights now. Not that engaging it there was normal before. :shrug The so-called "FSD" feature seems to be unaffected, since its operational domain was already different.
flutas 3y ago
So when is Toyota (the only other system I have experience with) going to be recalled? Their system is worse than Tesla's and will just randomly disable itself with zero alerts.
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  > will just randomly disable itself with zero alerts. That's how it encourages the driver to pay attention!

Xenoamorphous 3y ago

Dupe? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652

martini333 3y ago

"Owner notification letters will be mailed in accordance with 49 C.F.R. § 577.7." That's a lot of mail...

agloe_dreams 3y ago
What is that, a quarter million min in postage alone?
- itslennysfault 3y ago
  That is what a company like this calls "budget dust"
electrondood 3y ago
It's so stupid. Or... they could just display the change notes on the dash when they push a software update.
- acdha 3y ago
  Here’s the actual legal requirement: > In the case of a notification required to be sent by a motor vehicle manufacturer, by certified mail, verifiable electronic means such as receipts or logs from electronic mail or satellite distribution system, or other more expeditious and verifiable means to all dealers and distributors of the vehicles that contain the defect or noncompliance. I think that would cover them having a pop up on the dashboard as long as they were confident that the driver couldn’t miss it and they could log that it was seen.

sschueller 3y ago

Such OTA's by auto makers should be required to be reviewed by a 3rd party. A bad update can kill people. I assume OTAs for planes have a strict process defined or approved by the FAA which needs to be followed. Does the NTSB have such a thing in place or is it just the wild west?

mikrotikker 3y ago
Better yet, how about some dumb cars where you can't be killed by software code... there's no need for all these computers in cars these days. Keep it simple stupid. I think they just want to inflate the prices so much with all these extra useless features to force unequal access to personal transport.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  It's all about cost-effective improvement in sellable stats. Getting a little more horsepower; handling a little better; braking a little better. Easier to do with software than some mechanical device. Conspiracy theories aren't necessary. Just regular competitive market forces will explain it.
  - mikrotikker 3y ago
    It's not a conspiracy theory when cars are so expensive whole classes of people are excluded from the market.

bannedbybros 3y ago

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yallneedtoget 3y ago

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syngrog66 3y ago

in other news the world's 50 billion-ish Linux, Windows and Apple devices have also all been "recalled" hundreds of times in the last few years alone

strofcon 3y ago
I too enjoy putting "quotes" around a word to make it seem like it means the thing I want to pretend it means, instead of engaging honestly with the actual situation. :-)
trust_bt_verify 3y ago
Regulators forced them to update their product to mitigate a safety issue that was found? Or maybe you are misunderstanding the correct usage of ‘recall’ in the article and are applying it incorrectly to other situations.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625652

_ea1k 3y ago

To be rolled out in "2023.44.30" -- soon as part of the annual holiday update, which will get hype as a holiday update instead of a recall. Nicely planned from a PR perspective. :)

Mobil1 3y ago

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LoganDark 3y ago

Updates, not recalls. A software update shouldn't be called a recall.

strofcon 3y ago
It should when it's required by the NHTSA and comes along with mandatory reporting, notification, and deadline obligations, along with optional free on-site execution of the fix. That's what makes it a recall. A software update is the mechanism, the recall is the "Tesla did something wrong and is being held accountable" part.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  I'm not saying it shouldn't count as a recall, but for the consumer it's just an update.
  - sentientslug 3y ago
    I'm not sure there is a need for a distinction here, legally it is considered a recall whether or not it can be resolved with an update.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      I meant the title of the article probably should have used the term "update". To someone like me who doesn't know anything about vehicles, I was totally confused to see Tesla "recalling" vehicles over software.

Symmetry 3y ago

Level 2 and 3 automation are just not something you can reasonably expect humans to be able to participate in. If you're not providing input you're not going to be paying enough attention. https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-levels.html https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-level...

avgDev 3y ago

I'm surprised by the inability of many HN'ers to understand what a "recall" means. How you fix it doesn't matter. OTA or dealer visit recall is a recall.

fleeno 3y ago

From my Model Y manual: "Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver. Do not use Autosteer in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present." GM and Ford both restrict their systems to controlled access highways, and are hands free when doing so. I wish Tesla would do something similar.

leetgirl83 3y ago

Seriously, why can't the headline just say "Tesla to issue Autopilot software update for 2M vehicles"? As if the purpose of the headline is just to make people think this is a massive product recall.

trogdor 3y ago
Because it is a recall, and your suggested headline would be misleading. Tesla routinely pushes software updates. This one, however, is different. It’s the result of a multi-year NHTSA investigation, and it’s legally a recall. The National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act gives NHTSA the authority to require manufacturers to recall vehicles that have safety-related defects. Just because this recall is being addressed through an OTA software update doesn’t make it not a recall.
mikrotikker 3y ago
Because "they" are pissed at Elon and his antics. He destroyed their propaganda platform and exposed the propaganda pushers. Now he's shitting on advertisers for extorting the platform. A story like this has an effect on stock prices. It's all they can do to try to hurt him since he has so much "fuck you" money.