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FTC authorizes compulsory process for AI-related products and services
- h2odragon 3y agoI thought that a bit broad language and searched for previous examples. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/08/federal-trade-commission-authorizes-three-new-compulsory-process-resolutions-investigations https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/08/... > The omnibus resolution relating to car rentals will allow staff to investigate unfair and deceptive practices in that industry. and a couple others; and: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ftc-authorizes-new-compulsory-process-resolutions-eight-key-enforcement-areas https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ftc-authorizes-new-comp... which lists similar measures covering: > harmful business practices directed at service members and veterans; > harmful business practices directed at children under the age of 18 years old; > allegations of bias in algorithms and biometrics; ...so It doesn't seem like this is particularly unusual.
- molticrystal 3y agoIf it is harmful, why does lacking veteran status or other criteria make it less harmful and thus less infringing?
- swatcoder 3y agoThere's (ostensibly) a general current in American politics towards non-interference in business, even where it causes harm, but practical support for intervening in protection of certain groups seen as annointed, vulnerable, etc. There's no secret to it. If you're just not down with annoting vets with special treatment, that's fine and I think I'm with you, but your rehetorical question evaporates when you accept that politics is real and done in the open.
- throwanem 3y agoThey agreed to curtail their liberty and risk life and limb on behalf of, and at the direction of, the state. Whatever you think of such a decision, it's absurd, especially for anyone who's ever taken compensation in equity, to imagine the state should not consider itself under some reciprocal obligation.
- nosefurhairdo 3y ago> There's (ostensibly) a general current in American politics towards non-interference in business At what point in time has our economy been more regulated than it is today? I can't even think of a particular industry that has trended towards less government involvement. I suppose you could make the case that modern Republicans are relatively focused on "non-interference", but that's certainly not new (Reagan) and it's certainly not a general American political trend. Really curious what you mean by this, because the way I'm reading this there is no basis in reality.
- swatcoder 3y agoNo worries. I think you're just taking the wrong sense of current. Non-interference in business is the prevailing current in the US, at the federal level, since its founding. Interference needs to be constitutionally justified, and (historically) needs to not be better applied by more local jurisdictions. This is why the past shows has comparitively lax regulation for long. You're right that this is a more pressed issue lately and that we can see a local relative current towards regulation tempers that prevailing one, but in net its actually still relatively non-interfering compared to what you see in peer nations. Leaning on the metaphor: The prevailing Atlantic current mostly goes north up the US coast, but you can still find local currents in all directions amidst that prevailing flow.
- nosefurhairdo 3y agoThat clarified my misunderstanding, thanks!
- Animats 3y ago
- eyelidlessness 3y agoIf there’s an effort to protect a specified group of people from a specific harm, why would you infer that the specific harm is considered less harmful to others outside the specified group? There are much more reasonable inferences available if you don’t reflexively view it through a competitive lens.
- h2odragon 3y agoindeed. I read it as "we're targeting specific scams aimed at veterans and others aimed at children" and my first thought was areas of the insurance industry selling "coverage" that doesn't cover. Those scams aren't targeting the general population to begin with.
- BobbyJo 3y agoBecause otherwise the group wouldn't be specified?
- brookst 3y agoThere’s a conspiratorial way of thinking about it, which says “they could have protected everyone, but chose to only protect this group, therefore they must think it is ok for these harms to fall on others, therefore [insert innuendo or conspiracy]” And there’s the pragmatic way of thinking about it, which says “these concerns were raised by advocates for this group based on past experiences where this group saw abuse, and the conversation was never elevated beyond protecting this previously-victimized group from future abuse” Thats not to defend what is probably bureaucratic myopia, just to say the reasons are more likely banal than strategic.
- BobbyJo 3y agoId distinguish between the two by asking if the group is specified in policy or in incident documentation. The former would infer uneven application of policy, whereas the latter is what you're referencing.
- eyelidlessness 3y ago
- Two4 3y agoMy opinion: the US strives to make their warrior class one of some sort of privilege, or at least appearing to have privilege. They have had various amounts of success in doing so. Thank you for your service, here's your veteran discount. Have you decided which college you want to spend your GI Bill at yet? Don't worry about scam institutions, the FTC will protect you.
- kylebenzle 3y agoFun fact, the GI bill is a revenue generating scam. Meaning, it makes more money than it pays out. I didnt know until bootcamp you have to PAY to get the gi bill and then they make it as complicated as possible to use so most people never end up using it. Under capitalism nothing happens unless someone's making money.
- herewulf 3y agoFUD. I don't recall paying anything into the (Montgomery) GI Bill. It wasn't hard to use. I got $50K of basically free money out. Granted I went to basic training over two decades ago. Maybe the Post 9/11 GI Bill is different? But I doubt it. What I've heard from fellow veterans is it's better in so many ways. Apparently I'm even eligible for a year of its use even though I depleted my original GI Bill (with kicker).
- kylebenzle 3y ago[dead]
- astura 3y agoIt's not complicated to use. The most difficult part for most people is staying in school, which is made significantly easier by not having to pay for it.
- parineum 3y ago> Under capitalism... Which part of capitalism causes the government to scam the state funded military. There doesn't appear to be any private ownership of capital involved at all.
- zlg_codes 3y agoBecause the average citizen is not considered worth protecting in the United States. If you aren't of a protected class, you don't matter.
- ameister14 3y agoIf you're really complaining that the guy in the wheelchair gets too much assistance in the form of a ramp to get into places or that children aren't treated the same as adults, you should take a hard look at yourself.
- zlg_codes 3y agoSomehow caring about every citizen is too hard? Nobody reasonable is against helping those who need it. It doesn't have to be at the cost of giving a shit about everyone else. But keep making up reasons to favor the status quo without activating any new synapses.
- ameister14 3y agoLet's get into the "at the cost of giving a shit about everyone else" part - do you think that, prior to anti-discrimination laws intended to create an even playing field, everyone got some kind of benefit that they no longer get? If so, you are mistaken. In the United States, we do not have and have never had a system that cares about every citizen. We just don't. What we have are limits to cruelty and a general concept of fairness as a base starting point for life. ADA compliance especially does not give the disabled an advantage over others. It is an attempt to level things and an acknowledgment that assistance is necessary for some people to enter the workplace as otherwise they would not physically be able to do so. Most of the other protected classes are based on the Constitution - not including pregnant women and women that may become pregnant, as a sub-class, who are classically discriminated against in the workplace and elsewhere and forced out of their jobs on a regular basis. So when someone, you in this instance, complains about "not being worth protecting" in comparison to a group that is routinely disadvantaged or innately vulnerable, it creates the appearance in people listening or reading their words that they are extremely naive and/or a cruel, mean person. This perception is something a person who is neither of those things should consider before speaking or posting about subjects like this one.
- himinlomax 3y agoOne of the main issues is that veterans who are deployed may, through no fault of their own, not be in a position to challenge say a court decision or otherwise exercise their right within the normal time limit allowed. Even if they are not deployed abroad, they may be forced to move at a moment's notice when other people usually have the time to make preparations and thus may not get mail immediately.
- vkou 3y agoBecause veterans, children, people with illnesses or disabilities, people with or without children, religious denominations and ethnic groups, people over the age of 40, people with non-standard gender or sexual orientation, and a couple of other categories that I'm sure I haven't mentioned tend to have a history of being discriminated against in various arenas, and having fewer resources to address that discrimination.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoSo, 150% of the population? Are people who were dealt 2 and 3 in a poker hand a protected class too? Back in the day we just used to say life isn't fair, play with what you have in the best way you could. And it worked.
- ameister14 3y agoWhen was this back in the day? Prior to the 1972 amendment to the CRA? Because no, it did not work.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoYou probably have items in your house made by people working for $100 a month - which is less than what slaves in mid 19th century's America earned. But this is not discrimination, this is different, right?
- lawlessone 3y ago>which is less than what slaves in mid 19th century's America earned. slaves aren't paid
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoA skilled slave in Upper South could make $500/year, $20k in today's money.
- 3y ago
- barryrandall 3y agoIt doesn't, but opposing protections for children and veterans is widely perceived to be a losing political strategy.
- jjk166 3y agoThey're not specifying who they want to protect from a general harmful business practice, they are saying who is targeted by a specific harmful business practice. So for example they're not saying protect only veterans from scam calls, they're saying protect everybody from scam calls that impersonate VA services in an attempt to scam veterans.
- dragonwriter 3y agoIt doesn't. The adoption of compulsory process for investigation of certain potential violations doesn't make other violations less infringing. Its a procedural change dealing with investigations, not a change in the law governing the behavior the FTC regulates.
- minimaxir 3y agoThe carve out for services that claim to detect AI is interesting. If the FTC realizes that's snake oil, that's a good thing.
- zer00eyz 3y agoWell its possible: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/11/new-go-playing-trick-defeats-world-class-go-ai-but-loses-to-human-amateurs/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/11/new-g... All LLMs are deterministic systems with a random seed. Get rid of the noise that is injected in the system and the outcomes become repetitive. That means that the output is a pattern, one that may be "detectable".
- seeknotfind 3y agoHow could this scale? Does the FTC choose what they will investigate?
- madeofpalk 3y agoIt’s the threat of action that generally keeps companies/people inline.
- devindotcom 3y agoThe FTC responds to complaints from affected parties, then investigates the complaints, then if necessary works with the Dept of Justice to charge a violator or fine them.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> How could this scale? It's a streamlining provision for FTC investigations in the area, so it inherently improves scalability.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nothrowaways 3y agoThis is total opposite of accelerate.
- MadnessASAP 3y agoIf you drive off a cliff you only go faster for a brief period of time.
- nothrowaways 3y agoIt harms small enterprises greatly.
- dragonwriter 3y agoHow?
- nothrowaways 3y agoIt's a no brainier.
- Tostino 3y agoSo explain yourself in that case, if it should be so obvious, it shouldn't take long.
- nosefurhairdo 3y agoThe standard argument is that larger regulatory burdens create fixed costs that are inconsequential for large enterprises but are barriers to entry for smaller businesses. E.g. banks and pharma continue to be profitable despite large regulatory burdens, but it's nearly impossible to start a new bank or pharmaceutical company today.
- mkl 3y agoThese aren't regulations to operate though, they define process within FTC investigations.
- ryukoposting 3y agoTo what extent is a raised barrier to entry a feature? High regulatory costs demand greater investment, which in turn demands more third-party eyes from an early stage in a company's development. The last time we had a largely unregulated cottage medical industry, it precipitated billions of dollars in fraud [1][2][3]. Given the cost of the computing resources, we weren't going to be seeing any mom-and-pop non-GMO free-range AI shops anytime soon anyway. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/03/13/chicago-lab-indicted-covid-19-testing-scheme/11467937002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/03/13/chicag... [2]: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/20/doj-accuses-2-in-california-of-144-million-covid-testing-fraud.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/20/doj-accuses-2-in-california-... [3]: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-fraud-increases-medicare-spending-covid-19-testing https://www.propublica.org/article/how-fraud-increases-medic...
- candiddevmike 3y ago> AI includes, but is not limited to, machine-based systems that can, for a set of defined objectives, make predictions, recommendations, or decisions influencing real or virtual environments. Generative AI can be used to generate synthetic content including images, videos, audio, text, and other digital content that appear to be created by humans. Finally we have a definition for what AI is.
- ushakov 3y agoCan we now ban companies from marketing products as “AI” when in fact there is none?
- kevincox 3y agoI'm pretty sure that any company that has an if statement in their codebase can satisfy that definition so calling anything false advertising is going to be harder than it would have been before this was published.
- Vt71fcAqt7 3y agoDidn't know numerical analysis was actually AI all along. I'm glad we have wise overseers in the FTC to save us from the harmful (sorry, unsafe) effects of AI technology. Next time be more careful when you try plotting a graph of a function.
- kromem 3y agoSo it looks like a store inventory tracker from the 80s which alerts staff to restock a shelf is AI, and subject to this.
- Iulioh 3y agoIf it says "with the past trends order 1000pices of product X" While reaaaaally simple it is still a form of IA, I don't see nothing wrong with that A advanced model would maybe see industry prices and consumer trends but it's the same in my eyea
- devindotcom 3y agoLooks like this is basically for the paperwork they need to compel parties to disclose things like business practices if there is a credible complaint against them. Probably until now they have had to go through another department or section even though they've stood up an AI-specific division. So this just makes it easier for the AI team to, say, compel a company making allegedly fraudulent AI claims to justify those claims, or face the same consequences another company might for making, say, fraudulent product effectiveness claims. Same capabilities, just directed at bad actors in this corner of the industry.
- krasin 3y ago> AI includes, but is not limited to, machine-based systems that can, for a set of defined objectives, make predictions, recommendations, or decisions influencing real or virtual environments. PID loop is AI by this definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional%E2%80%93integral%E2%80%93derivative_controller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional%E2%80%93integral%...
- blitzar 3y agoMy mechanical mecury thermostat is now AI!
- akoboldfrying 3y ago>AI includes, but is not limited to, machine-based systems that can, for a set of defined objectives, make predictions, recommendations Also regression, most of what makes computers fast (LRU cache, branch prediction), optimising compilers. >decisions Arguably this deems any program containing a conditional branch instruction as AI.
- throwanem 3y agoThank goodness the law is interpreted by judges and not engineers. No, I'm not joking.
- davorak 3y agoIdeally the law is written in language that can be understood by the people who are expected to follow it not just judges. Preferably without fuzzy boundaries where they are not necessary, like to avoid injustice. The complaint I see here is that wording, at least in the article, does neither of these.
- throwanem 3y agoAny organization that needs to worry about this ruling has access to a legal department who can interpret it for them.
- m3kw9 3y agoMore procedures to operate will limit competition
- dragonwriter 3y agoThese aren't procedures to operate, this provides particular process within FTC investigations.
- janalsncm 3y agoGood. So much attention has been given to nebulous concepts like AGI and alignment, meanwhile I’m sure if Nick Bostrom or Stuart Russell were being denied loans, apartments, college admission or surgeries they would understand that the problem isn’t in identifying or codifying human values, it’s that there are multiple competing and mutually incompatible human values (For example: I want my money but my landlord also wants my money) which play out in the political and economic spheres every day.
- Exoristos 3y agoNo, you want a place to sleep and your landlord wants money. What you said doesn't even make sense.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoIf it were so, people wouldn't take rent amount into consideration when renting an apartment.
- quotemstr 3y agoAre we properly evaluating the potential negative impacts of safetyism, including that of unfriendly nation states making faster progress than we can? I see these sorts of requirements through a skeptical eye.
- Fomite 3y agoWe're not. Or we are. We can't tell, because all of this is hand-waved and hypothetical.
- gumballindie 3y agoA bit disappointing that not everyone falls for ai fud.
- evbogue 3y agoLLMs aren't FUD, they are literally the future we're betting on to keep Microsoft here doing the things that Microsoft does. Whatever those things are.
- gumballindie 3y agoYeah microsoft keeping doing what it does is not a desirable outcome.
- Cieplak 3y agoIs there a link to the actual legal text of the omnibus resolution? Are FTC resolutions publicly available? I wasn't able to locate the referenced document after briefly searching the FTC legal library and the regulations.gov website. Apologies if I've missed an obvious link from the press release.
- dragonwriter 3y agoI can't find it published yet, but note that these resolutions are common, extremely short, and very standardized. See this compilation of compulsory process resolutions: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/attachments/press-releases/ftc-streamlines-consumer-protection-competition-investigations-eight-key-enforcement-areas-enable/omnibus_resolutions_p859900.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/attachments/press-releases/...
- m3kw9 3y agoSo if I make an app using any type of predictive ML I have to go thru this?
- 0xDEADFED5 3y agonah, it'll be selectively used against companies that piss the right the people off
- m3kw9 3y agoI like this reply, it’s funny
- dragonwriter 3y agoNo, the compulsory process applies to FTC investigations in the area (it basically makes a form of administrative subpoena available in that context), it isn't something that is compulsory for doing business in the area.
- bilbo0s 3y agoRight. And typically, you only have to go through the investigation if someone brings a complaint about your product. You would have to be screwing up big time to rack up complaints like that though.
- chankstein38 3y agoOr generating art and be found by the wrong group of enraged artists...
- leecoursey 3y agoI had a conversation with ChatGPT about this announcement to help me understand it better. I found it helpful (seriously,) so I'm posting a link to the chat here. Apologies if this sort of thing is inappropriate for a comment thread on HN. Let me know if it's uncool and I won't do it again: https://chat.openai.com/share/635b8198-166b-4c53-abb5-7d405046d668 https://chat.openai.com/share/635b8198-166b-4c53-abb5-7d4050...
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoVery helpful and I didn’t realize you could share like that
- aeonik 3y agoAs long as we are sharing Chats from GPT, I am also having chats about AI risks. I asked it to look into history for patterns regarding 4 different scenarios: 1. Carefully controlled technology -> Increased Risk 2. Haphazard release of technology -> Decreased Risk 3. Carefully controlled technology -> Decreased Risk 4. Haphazard release of technology -> Increased Risk Some interesting points... but I thought it left out the careful control of literacy. https://chat.openai.com/share/5516a6f8-c15f-449b-803b-69d68bc707bf https://chat.openai.com/share/5516a6f8-c15f-449b-803b-69d68b...
- CaptainFever 3y agoI think it's fine as long as one isn't sharing a long ChatGPT answer here verbatim. That tends to be pretty annoying (since we could just ask ChatGPT ourselves if we wanted to).
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rossdavidh 3y ago"products and services that use or claim to be produced using artificial intelligence (AI)..." Interesting test of whether we suddenly see a decline in the number of products claiming to have or be produced using AI. Probably not until/unless the FTC actually starts using these powers in a significant way. By the way, I don't mean cases where AI was used, lying about it, I mean cases where nothing meriting the term "artificial intelligence" was used, but they have been stretching the term so they can use the latest buzzword in advertising.
- RecycledEle 3y ago> "products and services that use or claim to be produced using artificial intelligence (AI)..." Imagine a government agency that has oversight over "products and services that use or claim to be produced using electricity..." This may become the largest power grab in US history.
- bruce343434 3y agoPretty much e.g. all electric chargers do have a certification, yes
- andylynch 3y agoBut every functioning government regulates electrical networks and devices in some way. People think it’s mostly reasonable since they don’t like being electrocuted or having things explode and catch on fire?
- chii 3y agoAnd those regulations only happened _after_ the dangers and harms were shown to be true and actually happens. I would be wary of pre-emptive regulations.
- nameless912 3y agoAI has already hurt plenty of people though; we already have examples of biased "AI policing", artists and writers are getting their work stolen left and right, and I've heard tell of several instances of seriously vulnerable code making it to production and revealing folks' private information due to bugs introduced by AI assistants. This regulation is almost certainly too far reaching and written by bureaucrats rather than experts, but the need for regulation is already there.
- TeeMassive 3y agoThis will most likely get thrown out in court. The executive branch can't grant itself new powers.
- Exoristos 3y agoI certainly hope so. This is a selective-enforcement nightmare at best, an attempt to bend technology to narrative for nefarious political purposes at worst.
- pembrook 3y ago> AI includes, but is not limited to, machine-based systems that can, for a set of defined objectives, make predictions, recommendations, or decisions influencing real or virtual environments Based on this definition, we’ve had AI since the 1950s. So AI is basically any device capable of computation, according to the FTC. While I’m not sure in this case it’s really a big change in regards to how the FTC conducts investigations…(I assume they can already subpoena whomever for any reason) it is somewhat alarming in that we’re going to see more and more government mission creep based on similar tenuous definitions of “AI.” Seems to just be inviting abuses of power in the name of “safety” over basic computer tech we’ve had for decades.
- MadnessASAP 3y agoThere seems to be a lot of commenters on this post that have forgotten that the law and law adjacent matters are not intended to be parsed by computers with exacting pendantry. Believe it or not but a judge, prosecutor, lawyer, or clerk, even one inexperienced can be relied on to tell the difference between an "if" statement, an algorithm, and a multi billion parameter opaque model. The law is better when it is written without exhaustive all encompassing definitions because it allows those who interpret the law to apply discretion. Discretion is important because it allows for situations that were not forseen by the original authors. It allows someone to say "I don't care what you want to call it, this very clearly is/isn't AI. "
- cle 3y agoI'd imagine most folks are concerned with the other way that discretion cuts--it also allows tenuous interpretations that are not in the spirit of the law or are based on controversial interpretations, judicial activism, etc. As a lay person, I also object to unclear laws and processes because it's my repsonsibility to understand and follow them. How am I supposed to do that correctly if they're intentionally ambiguous?
- MadnessASAP 3y agoThe system isn't without flaws and unfortunately the American legal system is particularly rife with the. To stay on topic though, no 2 people will give you the same definition of "AI" and yet we're rapidly moving into the age of it. As such the only way to regulate around it is on a "we'll know it when we see it" basis. I know HN doesn't generally care for regulations on technology but the undeniable reality is that the online space has a dramatic effect on the real world and that AI can have a dramatic effect on the online space.
- jcims 3y agoLina Khan is the chair of the FTC and was just on Hard Fork podcast. Pretty interesting. I heard the episode this past weekend and today it occurred to me that the sheer incompetence demonstrated by OpenAI is actually something they would likely see as a threat.
- Vecr 3y agoShe said her "p(doom)" was 15% (0.15), that's crazy high. Does she know what that entails?
- evbogue 3y agoDamn, spam is dead now.
- omginternets 3y agoWe can dream.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- putlake 3y agoFascinating implications on search engines. An army of SEO professionals, publishers and all manner of companies that rely on Google for traffic will be interested in pushing for a process review of Google's AI systems.
- trace_id 3y agoThe empire strikes back.
- mrkramer 3y agoWhat does this mean in the long term? (I'm not a lawyer.) More transparency in the AI industry or just an ability for FTC to subpoena AI companies?
- theknocker 3y ago[dead]
- theknocker 3y ago[dead]
- gustavus 3y agoWhat's that regulatory capture how did you move so fast?
- stainablesteel 3y ago> AI includes, but is not limited to, machine-based systems that can, for a set of defined objectives, make predictions, recommendations, or decisions influencing real or virtual environments by this definition my toaster is an AI