7 ms·
Argentine here. This is false: we will abolish legal tender. Currencies will compete. Many people will choose the dollar. This is the fulfillment of Hayek dr
by wvlia5 3y ago
Argentine here.
This is false: we will abolish legal tender.
Currencies will compete.
Many people will choose the dollar.
This is the fulfillment of Hayek dream of stripping control of the currency from the state.
- htrp 3y ago> Many people will choose the dollar. Do you know any argentines who wouldn't choose the dollar as the currency of choice?
- papichulo2023 3y agoPeople working remotely for EU o travel there often?
- papichulo2023 3y agoPretty much this. In practice most people will choose the dollar, as long as it remains stable at least.
- codetrotter 3y agoThe people should choose Bitcoin.
- wvlia5 3y agoI agree
- miroljub 3y ago... and pay 5-10 $ fee per transaction? I doubt it.
- charlieyu1 3y agoYou can always use level 2s for small transcations.
- johndunne 3y agoAnd potentially wait many multiples of 10 minutes if the mempool is full, making it potentially useless.
- pcdoodle 3y agoLightning doesn't require waiting. Block time is not relevant unless you're sending a very large amount of money.
- hoffs 3y agoSounds like a fun time waiting for transaction to process in the shop
- ForkMeOnTinder 3y agoRight now the median fee on lightning is $0.000226047. https://1ml.com/statistics https://1ml.com/statistics
- miroljub 3y agoNext question: where can I get Lightning banknotes for offline payments?
- alskfdjaksldjf 3y agoYou say that like any argentinian would walk around with money or any valuable after he abolishes the police.
- miroljub 3y agoYou are aware people have been carried valuable items with them long before the invention of police?
- alphager 3y agoLightning is not a solution, as it requires buying into a channel and not getting your coins until the channel closes.
- wslh 3y agoI would say Tether based on the exchanges.
- wslh 3y agoThe reality in Argentina shows that exchange houses prefer Tether over Tron. This is not an endorsement to USDT, just the reality. They will look at cryptocurrencies with high liquidity and low fees.
- ace32229 3y agoWhat currency would the government pay benefits/public sector employees' wages in?
- liotier 3y agoAt that point in lunacy, I wouldn't discount Milei having a plan to replace all public sector employees with private firms.
- wvlia5 3y agoThis is true. Long-term plan is to abolish the state itself, as Milei is a declared anarchocapitalist
- hutzlibu 3y agoHe is also a populist, who would not even allow a abortion, to a 10 year old rape victim. (that was a literal question and answer in an interview with him). Oh and he would allow the selling of children. So I would question the consistency of his freedom ideology. If you use the state to enfore strict law on abortion, meaning deciding over other peoples bodies, how will you do so without a state? Or why do so, when you do not want a state at all?
- ryandrake 3y agoThe guy's Wikipedia page[1] is a wild ride. Let's see: He's a cosplayer. He's telepathic. He speaks to dogs, both dead and alive ones. He speaks to dead people, too, including Ayn Rand. He has seen the resurrection of Christ three times, but he can't talk about it. He met a lion, as a gladiator in the Roman Colosseum 2,000 years ago. Good luck, Argentines. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Milei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Milei
- conradfr 3y agoImagine being the other candidates who lost to this man.
- quelsolaar 3y agoGreat plan. Ill choose to pay my taxes to Hayek in Monopoly money.
- argentinian 3y ago[flagged]
- hutzlibu 3y agoHis point is, as long as there is a government, the government has to choose some official currency to collect taxes in and pay their employes etc.
- argentinian 3y agoYes, and that money needs to have a certain value.
- aflag 3y agoBeware when buying argentinian bonds, they may pay you back in the same way.
- api 3y agoScammers will descend on Argentina and loot the entire economy. Libertarians, like Marxists, are terribly naive about the prevalence and maliciousness of psychopaths and hustlers. The global economy is a dark forest.
- fidotron 3y agoThe whole thesis of this guy, and history shows it has serious merit, is in Argentina the government is the scam. What he is trying to do is remove the amount of scope that exists for grift and corruption in the Argentine state. I wish him good luck, sincerely, but if it looks like it works a lot of other countries will start going to great lengths to mess it up.
- cool_dude85 3y ago>and history shows it has serious merit Oh word? Where has this worked in the past?
- hotdogscout 3y agoEquador The Case of Ecuador https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/The-Case-of-Ecuador.pdf https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/The-Case-of-Ecua...
- Daishiman 3y agoEcuador has not had significant economic growth in a decade and is currenlty a narco-state.
- kergonath 3y ago> Libertarians, like Marxists, are terribly naive about the prevalence and maliciousness of psychopaths and hustlers. From my experience it’s worse than that. Some are idealists as you mention, but a lot of them plan or hope that they will be doing the hustling.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
- bragr 3y agoIf you use Zimbabwe as a model, it will probably be dollars plus a basket of regional currencies. A lot of South African Rand circulates in Zimbabwe so you might see a lot of Brazilian Reals, not to mention Pesos from other countries.
- jgtrosh 3y agoYou already see a lot of USD, euros, and Brazilian Reals in Argentina (especially avenida Florida of course)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mytailorisrich 3y agoLegal tender means a currency that has to be accepted when tendered to settle a debt. So in practice it is very inconvenient not to have one and to be able to refuse anything you want or to have to accept anything. The workaround is to have a contractual clause that specifies exactly how a debt may be discharged.
- mnw21cam 3y agoLegal tender has an even narrower definition in some countries. For instance, in the UK, legal tender is the currency that has to be accepted by a court of law when a debt is to be paid to them. In all other cases, for instance if there is a debt to a private individual or a company, then the law has nothing to say. Mostly we get by on the "Oh, don't be ridiculous" principle.
- mytailorisrich 3y agoThat's actually very important and why it exists: It ensures a way to settle debts. "Oh don't be ridiculous" has very little weight in money and debts disputes. In the case you mention this is called "defence of tender before claim". It means the person offered to the money but that was refused, so they go and pay it into court to protect themselves. In effect it means that if someone offers to settle in legal tender and is refused, then follow that legal procedure, then the creditor cannot do anything anymore expect recovering the money from the court.
- Turing_Machine 3y agoI've heard that at one time, a merchant in (say) England might refuse a pound note from (say) Scotland, as they are technically separate countries. Is that still the case?
- weissbier 3y agoIt actually happened to me once, when I was in London dining in a restaurant. I wanted to pay in cash that I withdrew in Scotland and the lady did decline the money I gave her. Pretty wild for me as a German doing a little trip through the UK.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoYou're now the guinea pigs in a very large scale experiment. Good luck.
- netbioserror 3y agoCompared to the well-worn disaster experiment they've been running for decades with such innovative ideas as rampant money-printing and promising social welfare while delivering poverty and suffering, I'm sure any other direction they go is up, comparatively.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoClearly, that's why they're so eager to participate.
- netbioserror 3y agoDripping with malicious sarcasm. Are you saying this election doesn't at all represent the popular will? You refuse to defend Argentinian democracy?
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoYour brain is dripping with paranoia. No sarcasm intended whatsoever. I don't buy into the attendant far right libertarian whackjobbery, so not sure the new president is the answer to anything, but clearly if things have been so bad for so long, especially with the same hard left ideas one that have historically shown to end in the same place over and over again, radical change in the opposite direction looks very attractive. And it might off in spades, if not pursued in the same stupid ideological manner as the socialists, but it's high risk. I hope it pays off for them bigtime. I'm not wedded to any ideology, unlike some.
- netbioserror 3y agoText is not tone, especially in a hellhole like this. It's not paranoia if the pattern is 90+%. But you're in a mighty comfy position that high up on the fence, so don't let me lecture you.
- thinkingtoilet 3y ago>This is the fulfillment of Hayek dream of stripping control of the currency from the state. Choosing the dollar isn't "stripping control" from the state, it's giving it to a sovereign state that doesn't have your interests in mind. Given the current situation it may be better, but lets stay in reality here.
- wvlia5 3y agoThat's why we won't have legal tender for dollar either.
- alskfdjaksldjf 3y agoGo on. Continue this line of reasoning. I think a couple steps down you will understand the comment you are replying to.
- marcusverus 3y ago> Choosing the dollar isn't "stripping control" from the state Until now, the government of Argentina has abused its currency monopoly by printing money, with devastating consequences. Inflation is approaching 150% per year. By "We'll abolish legal tender, stripping control from the state", GP means "We'll abolish legal tender, eliminating the government's currency monopoly and allowing the people to choose a sound currency." This is, by definition, "stripping control from the state", where "the state" obviously refers to the Argentine government. > it's giving it to a sovereign state that doesn't have your interests in mind. This would be true if the Argentine government was imposing the dollar as legal tender, but they're not. They're allowing the people their choice of currency. For now, that may well be the dollar. But if the US government begins to abuse the dollar (via inflationary policies, for example), dollars will lose favor and a more sound currency will take its place. This also prevents the Argentine government from steering their economy with monetary policy, but Libertarians view this as a feature rather than a bug.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago> Until now, the government of Argentina has abused its currency monopoly by printing money, with devastating consequences. With devastating consequences for the middle class. It's printing money to keep entitlements for the poor and to keep the rich from paying for those entitlements (more than they already are). Does Argentina even have a middle class anymore? I was looking at wealth inequality - and to be in the top 10% in Argentina - you need barely more than $100k. It seems like, historically, a decent chunk of the top 10% wouldn't even count as middle class in Argentina right now.
- snapetom 3y agoI’m by no means an expert in Argentina nor its currency. However, don’t many Argentinians who work for US/European firms already get paid in USD? A few years ago, I managed a team of developers and analysts. They were all paid in USD through a shell company, if you will. Everyone expected this. The first question new recruiting firms asked us was, “You will be paying in USD, correct?” We had one guy who had to be paid 50% in ARS because he had child support obligations, and it was a headache. Not because of the split on our side, but for the shell company. He was actually the lone ARS exception employee to be paid in ARS
- fluoridation 3y agoI'm not sure what you're getting at. The number of people who work directly for someone abroad and are paid in a foreign currency is practically insignificant.
- snapetom 3y agoThe point was that there is already a bustling black market in Argentina not only for USD, but EUR and Crypto. https://devonzuegel.com/post/inside-argentina-s-currency-exchange-black-markets https://devonzuegel.com/post/inside-argentina-s-currency-exc... In cybersec, the Argentinian scene is also one of the hottest producers of zero-day vulnerabilities. Those get paid in crypto, which is then washed to USD/EUR locally.
- fluoridation 3y agoSure, but so what. The vast, vast majority of Argentinians are paid in pesos and can't save.
- pinkpanther12 3y agoThe amount of Argentines who live in Argentina who get paid in dollars is ridiculously small, so small that I'd bet it's statistically insignificant. You're talking about an edge case - developers and analysts, of those developers and analysts, ones that are skilled enough (in their trade and in the english language) to work abroad, and lucky enough to get sought-after remote positions. There's also a very small number of people who are paid in a cryptocurrency tethered to the US dollar. However, remember that the vast majority of Argentines are paid in pesos. Even with salary adjustments, the vast majority of Argentine salaries cannot keep up with triple digit inflation. Bank accounts have a minimum of double digit interest rates and your money still loses value in relation to inflation. This is a large part of why the poverty rate has increased from a little under a third of the country to over 40% of the country.
- apienx 3y ago“I don't believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can't take them violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something that they can't stop.“ - Hayek
- JAlexoid 3y agoNothing of that kind is going to happen. There's just no support for that.