12 ms·

I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

109 points by monero-xmr 3y ago

brianwawok 3y ago
And in the over 100 Tesla chargers I have visited, I think maybe 1 was broken and not labeled. Good news is Tesla standard is coming to most car brands. Bad news is it's not here yet.
- outworlder 3y ago
  Relying on a single company seems like bad news to me. Imagine if your car could only refuel at Chevron stations. I get it that other charging networks also have the NACS connector. But if the argument is that they are unrealiable and people shouldn't bother, then Tesla will be the only game in town.
  - hn_version_0023 3y ago
    Seriously, especially with Tesla! I'm imagining a scenario where this becomes the standard and then Elon decides to charge everyone $2.99 per-use or some such nonsense. That's entirely in-character for Mr. Musk.
    - tokai 3y ago
      Or just block charging in a whole country because he got owned on twitter.
      - BlueTemplar 3y ago
        And then what, try to electrocute the law enforcement somehow when they come in to unblock it ?
    - yardie 3y ago
      EVGo already charges a $3.99 session fee. I made the mistake of topping up a EV rental without reading the fine print. BTW, Tesla charges $12.99/mo for access to the SuperCharger network for non-Tesla brands. The $/kW rate is pretty competitive and just .05-.10 higher than the residential depending on time of day.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Yes, that's why the NACS announcements are good for us Tesla owners. A lot of Tesla owners are worried about cars from other manufactures filling up Tesla charging stations. That's probably a valid concern, but I'm happy about the reduced reliance on Tesla.
    - natch 3y ago
      Teslas aren’t limited to charging at superchargers. Saying there is a “reliance on Tesla” makes it sound like they are. That’s going to confuse or mislead some people, maybe not your intent, but it will. We already live in a world where Teslas can charge at any charger and (recent tentative changes aside) other cars can only charge at unreliable expensive non-Tesla chargers. It’s good that this is changing but the only way it’s good for Tesla owners is that money is going to be raining down to further build out the supercharger network.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        > We already live in a world where ... other cars can only charge at unreliable expensive non-Tesla chargers. No, that's North America. Europe is different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ Although Tesla's V4 chargers still suck for 800 volt cars which is a shame. Tesla must try harder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJgThJtCR2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJgThJtCR2g
        natch 3y ago
        Thanks, good reminder of something large I overlooked.
  - taylodl 3y ago
    This gets at the core as to why I've not (yet) bought an EV - it's absolutely insane that my car purchase dictates the people I have to associate with for refueling. As you point out - I would never buy a car having the stipulation I could only refuel at Chevron stations. I'll stick with my dino juice so long as Tesla is the only viable option available for recharging. I'd think about getting an EV for a local commuter car where I can always charge at home, but they're still too expensive for that - though that should change as the used EV market becomes more developed and mature.
    - Qwertious 3y ago
      The funny thing is that electrical charging isn't fully standardized, but somehow hydrocarbons are.
      - mensetmanusman 3y ago
        This should be true, new technology is less standardized than ancient tech.
      - dpkirchner 3y ago
        They probably wouldn't be standardized if they didn't have to be. IMO this is a regulatory failure.
      - djbusby 3y ago
        Gas and Oil didn't start off as standardized (nothing does) - got there over time. I'm sure EV will get there - eventually. Needs a standards group like ASTM maybe.
        Schiendelman 3y ago
        We’re there already - everyone has adopted NACS. Interestingly, the standards group was the problem…
      - galangalalgol 3y ago
        They aren't really, it is just that modern engines are incredibly tolerant of what you put in them. Some survey found that the different octane tanks get mis-filled a large portion of the time with other octanes or higher ethanol ratings. Even within an octane rating what is in there varies a lot. The changes needed to make a four stroke work on propane is very small. And an old diesel engine will run on almost any liquid that will burn but not evaporate at stp. The cars will get smarter and be able to do better with different voltages at some point.
  - ajross 3y ago
    This seems backwards. You're demanding that people use alternatives in the market because of competition. But competition is what we have, and the market is choosing winners and losers. So... you're demanding we use the losers' products. So they can compete? Which they... aren't?
- voski 3y ago
  What do you mean the Tesla standard is coming to most brands? I was under the impression that Tesla is introducing new stations that have CCS chargers. Either with multiple cables or an adapter. You start the station using the Tesla mobile app. It’s in beta available in certain locations
  - zamfi 3y ago
    In Europe, yes. In, fact, European Teslas all come with CCS connectors now. In the USA, though, nearly every major vehicle manufacturer has announced a transition to NACS, the Tesla connector standard.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      To be more precise, NACS uses the Tesla physical connector but the CCS signalling protocol. In consequence: 1: Cars with CCS Type 1 connectors can use a dumb physical adapter to connect to a NACS charger. 2: Older Tesla's (prior to ~2020 depending on model) need a $400 retrofit to be able to charge at non-Tesla NACS chargers. (The $400 retrofit includes a CCS Type 1 adapter, so it might eventually be cheaper without it).
      - ajross 3y ago
        To clarify #2: the retrofit is the newer controller board that speaks CCS. This is the same thing they've been offering as a "CCS upgrade". It's otherwise unrelated to the NACS switchover, though obviously those are CCS-protocol devices and thus work with it.
  - fjskk333a 3y ago
    You're like 1 year behind the news. Last year Tesla was adding CCS chargers. They have like 5 now. This year, Ford and others promised to use Tesla plugs on their vehicles and Tesla promised to open their network to other manufactures. "Old" CCS vehicles will use CCS-Tesla adapters.
  - andrewmunsell 3y ago
    It's actually both, at least in the US. Tesla has the "Magic Dock", which is the built-in CCS adapter that unlocks when you use the app with a non-Tesla car. This is rolling out in a few places. The other thing is that "NACS" (North American Charging Standard, the same physical plug that Teslas use but with the CCS protocol, with some minor backwards compatible changes for optional higher voltages) is being adopted by almost every EV brand, beginning ~2025. Further, these same brands have committed to providing or selling NACS-CCS adapters to existing cars so they can use Tesla chargers, even without buying a new model of car.
- myself248 3y ago
  Allowing other brands to charge at Tesla stations will probably have some impact. Changing to the Tesla connector on other stations will most emphatically not.
- mayama 3y ago
  The issue is maintaining already installed chargers. Lot of chargers are either physically broken or rated for low charging rate because something inside is broken. And no one fixing it in months. Changing the connector won't fix the issue when chargers are not fixed for months on end.
  - nathanaldensr 3y ago
    People, especially techie types here on HN, tend to simply forget or not know to begin with just how many service technicians and laborers are necessary to keep all this tech running. Just because you can imagine it does not mean it's possible, folks.
    - parineum 3y ago
      The problem really is the companies. EA essentially rushed their product out the door knowingly with substandard (both in quality and actual standardization) that's led to their issues. They are simply not built to last and their bespokeness leads them to be difficult to repair. This isn't a case of oversimplifying, especially considering we can look across the street at a company who is doing exactly what we're asking for.
      - tw04 3y ago
        You do realize EA isn’t making their own chargers, and sources their chargers from multiple vendors, right? https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/21 https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/21 > Reston, VA (April 17, 2018) – Electrify America announced today it has selected key charging equipment suppliers – ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet – to jointly deploy its new ultra-fast electric vehicle (EV) charging systems throughout the United States.
        parineum 3y ago
        Yes, that's _exactly_ the issue. When they need to service a station, they need just the right parts. That's also from 2018. There a lot of chargers built before then. I read an article not too long ago where the new CEO was explaining that the reliability issue is, essentially, they rushed to get the first generations of chargers out so fast that they had to source parts from everywhere and they weren't all well tested and there are a lot of different types. The result is that each station is basically bespoke and they have to find just the right replacement parts to fix a broken station. The result is that you have to send a technician out to find the broken part and then wait to get a replacement instead of the technician having replacement parts on hand (because there are too many that it might be). That's why they are ripping out old stations and replacing them with new ones.
- snapetom 3y ago
  It's not the standard that made it reliable for you, it's the company that made/maintained the chargers. The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network.
  - parineum 3y ago
    And the company that maintains those chargers uses that standard. We don't want the standard, we want the chargers that work.
  - tw04 3y ago
    > The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network. They really aren’t, it just turns out it’s a hard problem. Electrify America was founded by vw as part of the diesel gate settlement. ChargePoint has been around for almost a decade. Then there are a bunch of OEMs producing chargers for the likes of gas station chains and automobile mfgs. About the only place you’ll find fly-by-night nobody’s is in the home charging space and even those are few and far between. It takes a LOT of capital to build a charging network.
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      > > The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network. > They really aren’t, it just turns out it’s a hard problem. Electrify America was founded by vw as part of the diesel gate settlement. Except your sentence there exactly explains why Electrify America is probably the network people love to hate on the most (myself included given the number of times I've visited non-functioning EA chargers), while the Supercharger network is leaps and bounds more reliable. Electrify America was essentially forced into existence as punishment to VW because of dieselgate. Which means it's not surprising that the folks in charge of EA had very little motivation to provide a stellar experience. Contrast this with Tesla, who sees the Supercharger network as an integral part of their business of selling cars. As the owner of a non-Tesla EV who loves my car but is very wary of 3rd party charging networks, you really have to hand it to Tesla for their work in building out the Supercharger network. They had the foresight to realize how critically important a good charging network would be, so much so that they are now able to dictate the "North America Charging Standard" (which given the history of how that name came about takes a ton of chutzpah, but that's a discussion for another post...) for the rest of the automakers - basically all the other EV makers have announced transitions to NACS. So, yes, it may be debatable to call the other charging networks "fly-by-night" companies, but I'll definitely agree with the "shitty" aspect. There are just tons and tons and tons of non-functioning chargers, and the comparison with the reliability of Superchargers is extremely stark.
- biomcgary 3y ago
  Network effects drive Tesla sales. In this case, the network of chargers. I was a Tesla passenger for a short trip from Seattle to Vancouver and the charging at the Tesla "station" was quick and easy. Other stations were a roll of the dice and highly inconvenient.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
Paywalled, sorry.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thesuitonym 3y ago
The main thing about these chargers is that nobody is monitoring them. At a gas station, an attendant is usually less than 20 feet away, and if anyone has a problem, they come talk to that person immediately. That attendant usually can't fix the problem on their own, but they can take steps to get it fixed quickly. By contrast, electric charging stations are typically at the far end of a vast sea of parking. There's nothing, and nobody around, so vandals take advantage, and even when they don't, things just break and there's nobody around to tell about it. And the whole payment scheme is ridiculous. Imagine a gas station that didn't accept cash, or that you needed an app to pay for. Again, the main problem is that there's nobody around to account for when things go wrong.
- dylan604 3y ago
  The systems definitely have a method to communicate for payments, they should add a button to report issues with charger. Of course it's ripe for the button being pressed randomly, but I'm sure there's a smart person that can automate the messages received to catch that. But at least it would provide a possible mechanism to have frustrated users report these unattended units
  - mayama 3y ago
    It is more of installers/maintainers not interested in fixing the chargers. They would already have information about how much is being payed for each charger and from that would know some charger is broken.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I'm sure the installers/maintainers are not the blame here though. Of course they'd like to get paid for doing it. It's the owners of the equipment that don't want to pay for the maintenance. Let's place the blame at the appropriate feet here.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    There's really no reason 95% of issues couldn't be caught through self diagnostics. The easiest thing for the button press is to rely on repeated presses at longer intervals, like 3 presses with at least 15 minutes between the first and last within a 2 hour window.
fjskk333a 3y ago
unpaywalled: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken/ar-AA1jXDcA https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120... . Microsoft to the rescue.
- dang 3y ago
  Changed above from https://www.wsj.com/tech/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken-7a5d3e45 https://www.wsj.com/tech/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-thre.... Thanks!
  - plorg 3y ago
    With all due respect, this is just the original article re-hosted, which I was under the impression we were advised against submitting as the canonical link. I really dislike MSN links like this because they make it very difficult to find that actual original URL without going back out to a search engine, and the page is cluttered with advertisement and pushes for Microsoft services. The only indication this was published by WSJ is a badge next to the headline and once you scroll the headline out of view there is no other indication this is published by WSJ and not Microsoft. Arguably sites like archive.ph do a better job of showing attribution than MSN does.
jonpurdy 3y ago
I had a Spark EV with CCS connector and charged around the Bay Area many times. Apparently my model of car had design issues with the connector and half the time I'd have to try a different charging station. I mostly charged at home but this was annoying when doing local road trips. Currently renting an Ioniq 5 in Florida (cost barely more than a petrol vehicle). Aside from a lack of L3 chargers near Indian Shores, the closest Electrify America near me was perpetually busy and one of the chargers was out of commission. Edit: the L2 chargers nearby require an app, need a payment method added, and require minimum top-ups (waste of money for a rental). And the closest one near me is out of commission anyway. Compare this to my anecdotal Tesla situation: rented a Model 3 a couple of years ago and every time I'd plug in it would work perfectly (and no need to authenticate or deal with payment). I love driving EVs but the fast charging situation must be rectified. My old Spark would only do 130 km on a charge and this new Ioniq does 450 km, so less of an issue. But for road trips, messing around with unreliable chargers is a non-starter for a lot of folks. (archive.is doesn't show full article but MSN does: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken/ar-AA1jXDcA https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120...)
- jeffbee 3y ago
  I wonder if the Spark shares that flaw with the Bolt EV. When Gig car share had a fleet of Bolts and an agreement with EVgo my experience was that the connections were dodgy and frequently the charging station would claim some kind of fault.
  - jonpurdy 3y ago
    From my understanding, the Bolt corrected the issue (which made it even worse for my Spark since there was no desire to fix the chargers to work around the issue).
- qdog 3y ago
  Yeah, it's pretty clear Tesla is still the best EV experience. I'm just waiting till the next gen of EVs to have proper connectors before I will consider another one. Our model Y is fine, but I don't want to buy another vehicle from them with Musk at the helm, and they don't plan to have a regular pickup anyways.
xrd 3y ago
A few months back I had to go to Palm Beach for work. It was right when Miami was flooding. That's over two hours away. But, the Port Everglades, which is where the tankers unload, was flooded too, and even up in Palm Beach there was no gas. I drove in there with low fuel, thinking it wouldn't be an issue since I was so far north. But, then couldn't find gas at all the next day, and driving around and seeing tons of frustrated drivers at various gas stations was haunting. But, hey, I have a hybrid Mini, so I can just go to a charging station, right? What a mess. There are at least two different chargers, and the Tesla ones don't work with my car unless I get a "Tesla Tap" (which I didn't have at the time). And, when you look on the dozens of apps out there, you will see charging stations, and then when you get there, realize it is a freaking outlet in a lamp post in the parking lot of a mall. I'm not joking. If I plugged in the cable I carry in the back of my car, it would have taken 8-12 hours to charge up to the full 18 miles I get on my car. Some of the stations just didn't work at all. The apps that you use to turn them on are the worst rated apps on the app stores. As an aside, trying to charge is a horrific experience when you are not in your hometown. But, and I'm not sure if this is just Florida or what (judging by the article, seems like no), even my "hometown" of 100k+ people has almost no working charging stations downtown. It is hilarious that the charging station in front of the power company does not work. When I was in Palm Beach, I drove around to at least five different charging stations. None of them worked. I parked next to a Rivian and admired his range and the ability to charge at those stations which did not work with my car port. Or, finding charging stations which did work with my car, but had no cables open. I finally found a gas station that had gas, and I remember being so relieved. This was the first time I realized that at least with gas, I can fill up and hand over the pump to the next person. But, with electric, you are not only looking for a working charger, but one that isn't in use. The infrastructure isn't there when there is even a slight weather event, and I can't imagine what it would be like in a true emergency when I couldn't just pull over and work on my laptop at a cafe nearby.
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  I guess, downvoted because you dared share an anecdote about how vulnerable EVs are in certain circumstances? It seems like people will have to relearn the hard way just why gasoline is probably the best energy storage medium ever invented.
zerbinxx 3y ago
fwiw there’s a ton of upcoming (and heavily debated/not yet implemented/understood) regulations around EV chargers that will absolutely nuke some of the shittier app-centric/not really functional charging systems that people rely on today. I’m not a Tesla fan per se, but it is remarkable how much better life is for Tesla owners vs. the huddled masses roaming the frozen wastes looking for a charger that can actually dispense a charge or provide users with some useful error feedback.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  The US's Federal Highway Administration announced rules National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) program. NEVI is being created under Biden's Build America, Buy America Act (enacted as part of Biden's Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, 2021). It provides funding for states to build out, maintain, and monitor EV charging solutions, and sets up common standards required for chargers funded. Chargers have to be remotely monitorable, offer public real time status, price, and historical uptime information, for each port. Chargers have to be Open Charge Point Protocol (OCPP) 1.6J or higher, (2.0.1 in 2025) and Open Charge Point Interface (OCPI) 2.2.1 roaming compliant by 2025. They must use 15118-3 and be dual -2 and -20 capable (the standard green phy transport, with Plug & Charge interface on that). DC charge ports must each provide at least 150kW and have to support 250-920V DC voltages. I believe there are also requirements around reliability & uptime, but I haven't found those yet. I think most of this program is ultimately done through the states, with the federal government paying 80%. My hope is that there's a big enough pool of funding here to compel businesses to get compliant. I do think the standards here are such that compliant charging stations will offer a good experience to consumers! The public access data requirements also make me think consumers will have a much better time understanding what options they have available, and whether those options seem trustworthy! Link dumps: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03... https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/12744 https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/12744 https://www.edrv.io/guide/nevi-minimum-standards-for-ev-charging-infrastructure https://www.edrv.io/guide/nevi-minimum-standards-for-ev-char...
- bdcravens 3y ago
snapetom 3y ago
I have now rented two electric vehicles this past year, both for semi-long distance trips. The first was a Kia from SF to Sacramento, and back a few days later, thinking this was California and it should be fine. I tried to use twelve stations and seven were broken/out of order for various reasons. I was so shocked about the sad state of affairs on this, I logged/blogged it. The problems were pretty much like the article: 1) Generally out of order message or off for some unknown reason. 2) One had a blatant electrical problem where it charged and then stopped as soon as I walked away. Thinking I was charged, but wasn't. 3) Appear to work, but the payment system was out of order. 4) One was on, but the UI was completely unresponsive. Worker at the business said, "It hasn't been working for almost a year now." 5) App didn't work. Generally, all apps in this space suck bad. Whether it's finding stations or the actual vendor, they are all slow and clunky at best with terrible UIs. The second was a trip from Boston to central Connecticut and back last month. There was a shortage of cars in the city. Logan was out of cars and I had to go to a neighborhood rental on the outskirts. On top of the shortage was Hertz's botched EV initiative, so there was only one Chevy Volt available at 33% charge. This experience was even worse. Again, over half the stations I encountered were broken for the same reasons. On top of that, there was essentially just one supercharging station on I-95 from Central CT to Boston, which I missed. It took me three hours because I had to preserve enough charge to make it back to Logan and take my flight out. By the time I got to the Boston Tunnel, the car went into "limited propulsion mode." I fully expected to die in the tunnel on a Friday evening and miss my flight. The whole thing reminded me that charging stations are complex machines with a myriad of things that can go wrong. On top of that, all these companies are startups who concentrate on growth and marketshare instead of creating an actual reliable usable product. 99% of people can't name one of these companies, and being the best, most trusted charging company is not the goal. I'm not renting an electric vehicle for a long time. The best use case would be within a city, and unless I'm purposely driving all over a city, I might as well just take public transportation or uber.
- ukd1 3y ago
  Try renting a Tesla next time; the network for charging is great, and I think I've only ever had one failure in years, and just moved stalls.
david422 3y ago
I have an electric vehicle that I charge in my garage. One day that charger broke and I had to charge at other locations for several weeks. There are very few fast chargers in my area. When they were not in use, some were broken. This leaves a pretty big dilemma: My car is low on juice, where do I go? By the time I actually get to an unused charger, it might be taken, or it might be broken. As long as it's not broken, I might have to wait for a charger to free up, especially a location that only has a single charger. And then wait for my car to charge. This can add up to a significant amount of time, and even more so if I have to use a non-fast charger. This time sink is very difficult to work around when you have other responsibilities. I can only imagine that as people get more EVs, this problem will get a lot worse until infrastructure improves.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  If it's in your garage, can't you just plug it in to a normal outlet?
  - david422 3y ago
    Only if I had a working charger, yes. The piece between the wall outlet and the car was what was broken.
    - steelframe 3y ago
      I've got 4 largely-independent L2 chargers so I don't ever have to worry about a broken charger leaving me up a creek without a paddle. One Clipper Creek plugged into a NEMA 14-50 outlet that's lasted 12 years so far, another Clipper Creek hardwired on another circuit. If the charger with the plug fails I've got my mobile L2 charger and my old Tesla mobile charger with a J1772 adapter. For road trips over 150 miles I just use my PHEV. I don't recall the last time I needed to use a public rapid charging station.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Was it plugged into a standard 220 outlet? Since I bought mine and my wife's EVs last year, I've used a relatively cheap level 2 charger (about $200) and if it broke I'd Amazon a new replacement in a couple of days. (Perhaps that's the case, and I'm not judging anyone's circumstances; just pointing out that many seem to think the chargers are much more expensive, but the cheaper ones seem to work fine)
whoopdedo 3y ago
My city tapped into a federal grant a few years ago to put a charger in one of the parking lots. The problem is they never budgeted maintenance so it's never worked since the day it was built.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  They've done this without thinking of the incentives much too. A supercharger station I visit is on the outskirts of an old mall (dead after 8pm) parking lot (with no pedestrian experience to the mall). It is okay to go get a milkshake or cookie at until 9 and the walk and bathroom break can top up on supercharger nicely. (The mall bathroom though is poorly maintained) Or my state incentived chargers at State and city parks that are theoretically closed at dusk, and have no full time maintenance staff or security. Who did this seeing gas stations and thought, let's put this charger in place that is busy only on fair weather days, not safe at dark (be it wildlife, crime, or the ability to injure yourself), with no secondary revenue (snacks, food) or even bio (restrooms closed after dark or you have to walk through a basketball practice) and said, this is the infrastructure we need. The power co has wisened up now though and worked with gas stations to add a few chargers.
SkyPuncher 3y ago
I almost bought a KIA EV6 two weeks back. The thing that stood out to me was the unreal amount of broken chargers. Tesla charger always seemed to work, but the non-Tesla chargers were broken or slow charging an amazing amount of the time. * At the base level, it looked annoying. Repeating the charging process several times to find the "blessed" charger. You were lucky if the charger was actually labelled as broken. * More seriously, the terrible condition of the major EV networks basically made it nearly impractical for a key long drive I need to do. If I wanted to do the trip on a single charging stop, I'd risk getting stranded at a broken fast charger, 50+ miles from the nearest working fast charger. If I stopped 50 miles earlier, I'd need a second stop no matter what. In winter conditions, it was unclear if I'd even be able to make the drive without 3 or 4 stops. I'm extremely excited that NACS is coming to more vehicles. No only does it increase availability, but it drastically increases reliability. I'd feel comfortable doing that same drive on the Tesla network.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  I have an EV6, and have done a cross-country trip in it. In my limited experience (Texas to California and back, and then across Texas, which is a 200+ mile trip one way) the freeway chargers are pretty dependable, but the ones in the major cities are of lower quality. That said, it is nerve-racking, and I do find myself stopping more often than necessary, "just in case" the next isn't in good condition. I do look forward to a better network like NACS.
julienchastang 3y ago
Happy EV owner here (Nissan Leaf), but I can confirm the charging network is a disaster: - Hard to use charging interfaces where you have to arrive to the station with an account already set up. Why can't you simply use your credit card like you do at a gas station?! (The article addresses this, but still…) - Spotty density (sometimes near, sometimes far) of charging stations. - Unreliable charging stations where you feel like it is a minor miracle when they actually work. I almost never use the charging network opting to charge at home. For out of EV range trips, I use my hybrid. Until EVs are cheaper than ICE vehicles, have the range of an ICE vehicle, and can be charged at the same rate as it takes to fill a tank of gas in a completely reliable manner, I don't really see widespread adoption of EVs in the US. On the other hand, sales of hybrid vehicles in the US are strong [0] [0] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/electric-vehicle-buyer-interest-67b407cb https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/electric-vehicle-buyer-in...
- yummypaint 3y ago
  I also have a leaf and use it for 90% of household driving. As long as there is a second ICE vehicle available there are never any worries about capacity or charging. Even charging overnight off 120V is sufficient since i dont do much late night driving. It's easy for people who havent lived with an electric to forget about home charging as there is no gasoline equivalent. I think we need more infrastructure to make chargers available to people without off-street parking. Many of these chargers could also be publically available. We need more public-private partnerships or companies who are willing to take on the risk of mass installing chargers.
Eggpants 3y ago
What I don’t understand is why car dealerships haven’t jumped at this opportunity by giving up some parking spots for charging stations. They already have a lounge areas, have displayed cars for folks to consider, and many have some kind of snack bar. Add a cut of the charging fee and you a consistent revenue stream.
- yummypaint 3y ago
  Many in my area already have. They have the closest free level 3 charger. I have no doubt ill be paying them a visit soon.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  You missed the most insidious part-- the captive audience envious of all those newer, nicer cars than their own. It sells itself.
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  IME car dealerships generally aren't located in areas you actually want to go. A lot of them are in the "unwalkable suburban strip mall hell" part of town, and they're also closely clustered together. It makes no sense for them to be a charging destination. Besides, a person who just bought a new EV is possibly the least likely person to get lured into a purchase in your showroom.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  Wapo had an article last week about how antagonist or unknowledgeable dealers are about new evs. There are some economics that could lead to the conclusion that dealers definitely don't want evs (fewer high margin services on average, except maybe tires for customers that heavy regen, and ultimately fewer new car sales because they fail less)
speps 3y ago
The Aging Wheels channel on YouTube has done a good field test between a Polestar 2 and a Tesla Model 3: https://youtu.be/92w5doU68D8 https://youtu.be/92w5doU68D8
- sbierwagen 3y ago
  This description undersells it. The Tesla chargers work perfectly... and every single Charging America station he tries to visit is broken in some way. It's half an hour of pain and suffering.
tw04 3y ago
Non-paywall link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken/ar-AA1jXDcA https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120... The single biggest issue with the “open” charging network at this point, in my opinion, is that it’s made up of so many different hardware vendors. At a single EA site you may have 3 different manufacturers of hardware. If something breaks you’ve got three completely different architectures that likely have a different technician required to fix, and definitely different internal components. Then add on the software layer that needs to look identical to end users but is also unique per vendor. Tesla on the other hand owns the stack end to end. It would be like trying to build HN utilizing dell servers running Linux, hpe servers running windows, and Lenovo servers running FreeBSD all trying to look like a single standardized interface to the end user. The overhead and areas for issues are immense. I understand why someone like EA doesn’t want to be single sourced but what they’re doing clearly isn’t working.
cainxinth 3y ago
TLDR: 27% were out of order, nearly 10% of the working stalls had payment issues, and a handful failed at the handshake (car and charger wont connect).
aidenn0 3y ago
The payment thing just boggles my mind. I've been paying at card readers at a gas pump for 20 years now and exactly once did it not work. It's the one thing that has been completely solved in industry, and it doesn't work with EVs.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  I've run into more failures than that at gas pumps, but it is mostly rare like you say. However in almost all cases, they're on the same network as the gas station POS, and I assume hard-wired. The card readers I see at EV spots seem to less durable, similar to the card readers you see on vending machines. I bet they mostly are using cellular to communicate.
  - inamberclad 3y ago
    That probably comes down to how the infrastructure is built out. A lot of companies are selling EV systems that can be installed in a pre-existing parking lot. A gas station requires installing large underground tanks, so it's not much extra effort to throw the data wires. In order to convince someone a business to install an EV charger, every little bit of effort counts.
- darknavi 3y ago
  Not to excuse it but most gas pumps I've been too are in covered areas where as EV chargers are not normally. Card readers surely should be weather resistant but EV chargers could use more cover.
- hakfoo 3y ago
  FWIW, I think the card industry itself is having to rethink a lot of stuff for EVs. Petrol pumps with card readers are their own little universe of rules and compliance standards within the credit card industry (the formal term is 'Automated Fuel Dispenser'). It's far enough afield that you're looking at specialized software and vendors, in part because a lot of them support fleet cards, which range from "95% normal Visa/Mastercard, but restricted to a specific merchant category" to "completely different network with its own messaging model". There's been a lot of new spec documents floating around to accomodate differences due to the EV fueling concepts. I suspect the ways we described petrol-- gallons and grades-- don't perfectly map to electricity, and fleet card customers are looking for similar trackability.
testfoobar 3y ago
Anyone work on EV chargers? Other than cable damage or mechanical damage to the plugs, there are no moving parts. So what specifically inside is likely to stop functioning or needs regular repairs/replacement/maintenance?
- s_tec 3y ago
  I recently build my own a level 2 EV charger from an OpenEVSE kit. The heart of the charger is a big mechanical relay, which connects and disconnects the charging cable based on whether a car is connected. To control the relay, there is a small circuit board that communicates with the car, and also provides over-current, over-temperature, and GFCI monitoring. If any of these things go wrong, the relay will not close and the car will not charge. The DC fast chargers include similar safety features, in addition to a big AC-DC converter. The DC power supply puts out several hundred amps at whatever voltage the car requests (usually 300V, but sometimes much higher). Normally, currents this high would require super thick & heavy cables, but DC fast chargers often avoid this using water cooling and active temperature monitoring in the cable. As the cable heats up from the excessive current, the charging equipment actively throttles the charging session to keep things from melting. So yeah, there are a few mechanical things that can go wrong.
  - testfoobar 3y ago
    Thank you. I didn't know about the complexity of the charging platform and power delivery cables. TIL that charging cables can be water cooled. Going to geek out a bit on this tonight.
  - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
    To deal with the high current on such relatively high (keyword here: relatively) gauge wire there's also massive active cooling involve. This adds even more to the complexity.
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  I am pretty sure there are moving parts including a solenoid or relay and fans.
bdcravens 3y ago
I drove from Houston to San Diego and back a year ago in my EV6, limiting myself to Electrify America chargers (as I had 1000KW credit, and they seemed to be the only option close to the freeway). It was fine, though most locations had around 1/4 of the stalls inoperable. In the last year, the EA locations here in Houston have been terrible, with many stalls broken or in low-speed maintenance mode. (Thankfully I charge at home most of the time) I drove from Houston to Dallas and back this weekend, the first time I've done a road trip since last year. All of the EA spots seemed to be in much better shape than in Houston. I'm guessing EA allocates more resources to keep those going, given the criticality for drivers in those locations.
jandrese 3y ago
IMHO the state of the charging network is a major disincentive against buying any CCS equipped EV in the US. Fortunately over the next couple of years every company is switching to NACS and will in theory be able to use Tesla's charging network. This is not great news for the cars bought this year or next though, it would be like buying Betamax.
- p1mrx 3y ago
  NACS will use the same signalling protocol as CCS, which means existing vehicles will be able to charge from NACS using a passive adapter. CHAdeMO may be the new Betamax, but CCS is more like VHS-C.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    How will payment work if the adapter is passive?
    - p1mrx 3y ago
      Probably app, card, or plug and charge, depending on what's supported. Payment methods are orthogonal to the connector type.
    - pornel 3y ago
      Latest supercharger model has a card payment terminal on the side. For older superchargers you pay via app by specifying stall number manually.
- rr808 3y ago
  Isn't it easy to have an adapter? Its weird that US is using NACS and Europe CCS, I guess it isn't much different to power socks.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  NACS is CCS with Tesla's plug on the end. 2019 Teslas and earlier won't be able to use it without a CCS retrofit. You'll be able to use CCS cars can use a passive adapter. And maybe some manufacturers will also offer retrofits. The EV infrastructure situation in North America is stupid and will take a few years yet to shake out. The failure to standardize has been a stupid waste of time and money for everyone.
KingOfCoders 3y ago
Same in Germany. So many broken chargers for weeks. Read through the article, but I still don't know why so many are broken and stay broken, it says "So what was wrong with these particular machines? It could be one of many things—a broken part, a power issue, a defective connector." I don't need an article to answer why are chargers broken if the answer is "Could be one of many things, ...". Why are gasoline stations mostly never broken and chargers broken all the time? (from my limited EV experience in Germany). Why are they unrepaired? That would be journalism.
- arcanemachiner 3y ago
  > Why are gasoline stations mostly never broken and chargers broken all the time? I mean... One of these technologies does have a 100 year head start on the other.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    Still, I see a single "out of order" pump every once in a while and then a few days later it's working again. The question seems more "why are they allowed to stay broken?"
    - trimethylpurine 3y ago
      Because gas customers are greater in number, regular, more frequent, and higher paying. Just guessing.
      - viraptor 3y ago
        Regardless, that's most likely leased spaces. If they don't make money, they lose money. And they seem to be off for a significant amount of time given that everyone seems to have a first hand story about it.
        trimethylpurine 3y ago
        That's true, but I doubt people charging their car represent the bulk of their income. The government pays companies to build new stations. Fixing old ones means your techs are tied up, and you're able to bid on fewer projects, which means less revenue. Again, I'm guessing, but it seems like a decent explanation.
ZeljkoS 3y ago
It gets even worse in other parts of the world: https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-car https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-c...
- clouddrover 3y ago
  You posted that over three years ago. How are things now?
  - ZeljkoS 3y ago
    Honestly, not much better. There are more chargers but also more EVs. New EVs support fast charging above 50kW, but there are very few chargers that offer that.
ryzvonusef 3y ago
WSJ youtube video on the same topic, if you like to have a visual component for this news. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m_z27LJa6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m_z27LJa6o
the_powerless 3y ago
An excellent counter-example to the usual "things with fewer moving parts are more reliable" trope. Design and manufacture play a much greater role in reliability.
okokwhatever 3y ago
I have no proof but I have no doubt EV charger companies receive succulent donations from the state for the number of chargers without specifying their operational status. Total win for them in the long term.
- Schiendelman 3y ago
  They used to. This has dramatically changed with new federal regulations around chargers.
spacehunt 3y ago
Interesting. Here in Hong Kong, apparently the non-Tesla chargers work so well, the Superchargers often lie empty because most Teslas charge at non-Tesla chargers as they are usually cheaper.
bdavbdav 3y ago
“Charging-company executives I spoke to think the Tesla network will have trouble supporting many different EV models” Feels like something they would say.
zzzcsgo 3y ago
The ones I visited were not broken but they cost a fortune to use
more_corn 3y ago
What a fucking joke.

109 points by monero-xmr 3y ago

And in the over 100 Tesla chargers I have visited, I think maybe 1 was broken and not labeled. Good news is Tesla standard is coming to most car brands. Bad news is it's not here yet.

outworlder 3y ago
Relying on a single company seems like bad news to me. Imagine if your car could only refuel at Chevron stations. I get it that other charging networks also have the NACS connector. But if the argument is that they are unrealiable and people shouldn't bother, then Tesla will be the only game in town.
- hn_version_0023 3y ago
  Seriously, especially with Tesla! I'm imagining a scenario where this becomes the standard and then Elon decides to charge everyone $2.99 per-use or some such nonsense. That's entirely in-character for Mr. Musk.
  - tokai 3y ago
    Or just block charging in a whole country because he got owned on twitter.
    - BlueTemplar 3y ago
      And then what, try to electrocute the law enforcement somehow when they come in to unblock it ?
  - yardie 3y ago
    EVGo already charges a $3.99 session fee. I made the mistake of topping up a EV rental without reading the fine print. BTW, Tesla charges $12.99/mo for access to the SuperCharger network for non-Tesla brands. The $/kW rate is pretty competitive and just .05-.10 higher than the residential depending on time of day.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Yes, that's why the NACS announcements are good for us Tesla owners. A lot of Tesla owners are worried about cars from other manufactures filling up Tesla charging stations. That's probably a valid concern, but I'm happy about the reduced reliance on Tesla.
  - natch 3y ago
    Teslas aren’t limited to charging at superchargers. Saying there is a “reliance on Tesla” makes it sound like they are. That’s going to confuse or mislead some people, maybe not your intent, but it will. We already live in a world where Teslas can charge at any charger and (recent tentative changes aside) other cars can only charge at unreliable expensive non-Tesla chargers. It’s good that this is changing but the only way it’s good for Tesla owners is that money is going to be raining down to further build out the supercharger network.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      > We already live in a world where ... other cars can only charge at unreliable expensive non-Tesla chargers. No, that's North America. Europe is different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ Although Tesla's V4 chargers still suck for 800 volt cars which is a shame. Tesla must try harder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJgThJtCR2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJgThJtCR2g
      - natch 3y ago
        Thanks, good reminder of something large I overlooked.
- taylodl 3y ago
  This gets at the core as to why I've not (yet) bought an EV - it's absolutely insane that my car purchase dictates the people I have to associate with for refueling. As you point out - I would never buy a car having the stipulation I could only refuel at Chevron stations. I'll stick with my dino juice so long as Tesla is the only viable option available for recharging. I'd think about getting an EV for a local commuter car where I can always charge at home, but they're still too expensive for that - though that should change as the used EV market becomes more developed and mature.
  - Qwertious 3y ago
    The funny thing is that electrical charging isn't fully standardized, but somehow hydrocarbons are.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      This should be true, new technology is less standardized than ancient tech.
    - dpkirchner 3y ago
      They probably wouldn't be standardized if they didn't have to be. IMO this is a regulatory failure.
    - djbusby 3y ago
      Gas and Oil didn't start off as standardized (nothing does) - got there over time. I'm sure EV will get there - eventually. Needs a standards group like ASTM maybe.
      - Schiendelman 3y ago
        We’re there already - everyone has adopted NACS. Interestingly, the standards group was the problem…
    - galangalalgol 3y ago
      They aren't really, it is just that modern engines are incredibly tolerant of what you put in them. Some survey found that the different octane tanks get mis-filled a large portion of the time with other octanes or higher ethanol ratings. Even within an octane rating what is in there varies a lot. The changes needed to make a four stroke work on propane is very small. And an old diesel engine will run on almost any liquid that will burn but not evaporate at stp. The cars will get smarter and be able to do better with different voltages at some point.
- ajross 3y ago
  This seems backwards. You're demanding that people use alternatives in the market because of competition. But competition is what we have, and the market is choosing winners and losers. So... you're demanding we use the losers' products. So they can compete? Which they... aren't?
voski 3y ago
What do you mean the Tesla standard is coming to most brands? I was under the impression that Tesla is introducing new stations that have CCS chargers. Either with multiple cables or an adapter. You start the station using the Tesla mobile app. It’s in beta available in certain locations
- zamfi 3y ago
  In Europe, yes. In, fact, European Teslas all come with CCS connectors now. In the USA, though, nearly every major vehicle manufacturer has announced a transition to NACS, the Tesla connector standard.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    To be more precise, NACS uses the Tesla physical connector but the CCS signalling protocol. In consequence: 1: Cars with CCS Type 1 connectors can use a dumb physical adapter to connect to a NACS charger. 2: Older Tesla's (prior to ~2020 depending on model) need a $400 retrofit to be able to charge at non-Tesla NACS chargers. (The $400 retrofit includes a CCS Type 1 adapter, so it might eventually be cheaper without it).
    - ajross 3y ago
      To clarify #2: the retrofit is the newer controller board that speaks CCS. This is the same thing they've been offering as a "CCS upgrade". It's otherwise unrelated to the NACS switchover, though obviously those are CCS-protocol devices and thus work with it.
- fjskk333a 3y ago
  You're like 1 year behind the news. Last year Tesla was adding CCS chargers. They have like 5 now. This year, Ford and others promised to use Tesla plugs on their vehicles and Tesla promised to open their network to other manufactures. "Old" CCS vehicles will use CCS-Tesla adapters.
- andrewmunsell 3y ago
  It's actually both, at least in the US. Tesla has the "Magic Dock", which is the built-in CCS adapter that unlocks when you use the app with a non-Tesla car. This is rolling out in a few places. The other thing is that "NACS" (North American Charging Standard, the same physical plug that Teslas use but with the CCS protocol, with some minor backwards compatible changes for optional higher voltages) is being adopted by almost every EV brand, beginning ~2025. Further, these same brands have committed to providing or selling NACS-CCS adapters to existing cars so they can use Tesla chargers, even without buying a new model of car.
myself248 3y ago
Allowing other brands to charge at Tesla stations will probably have some impact. Changing to the Tesla connector on other stations will most emphatically not.
mayama 3y ago
The issue is maintaining already installed chargers. Lot of chargers are either physically broken or rated for low charging rate because something inside is broken. And no one fixing it in months. Changing the connector won't fix the issue when chargers are not fixed for months on end.
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  People, especially techie types here on HN, tend to simply forget or not know to begin with just how many service technicians and laborers are necessary to keep all this tech running. Just because you can imagine it does not mean it's possible, folks.
  - parineum 3y ago
    The problem really is the companies. EA essentially rushed their product out the door knowingly with substandard (both in quality and actual standardization) that's led to their issues. They are simply not built to last and their bespokeness leads them to be difficult to repair. This isn't a case of oversimplifying, especially considering we can look across the street at a company who is doing exactly what we're asking for.
    - tw04 3y ago
      You do realize EA isn’t making their own chargers, and sources their chargers from multiple vendors, right? https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/21 https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/21 > Reston, VA (April 17, 2018) – Electrify America announced today it has selected key charging equipment suppliers – ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet – to jointly deploy its new ultra-fast electric vehicle (EV) charging systems throughout the United States.
      - parineum 3y ago
        Yes, that's _exactly_ the issue. When they need to service a station, they need just the right parts. That's also from 2018. There a lot of chargers built before then. I read an article not too long ago where the new CEO was explaining that the reliability issue is, essentially, they rushed to get the first generations of chargers out so fast that they had to source parts from everywhere and they weren't all well tested and there are a lot of different types. The result is that each station is basically bespoke and they have to find just the right replacement parts to fix a broken station. The result is that you have to send a technician out to find the broken part and then wait to get a replacement instead of the technician having replacement parts on hand (because there are too many that it might be). That's why they are ripping out old stations and replacing them with new ones.
snapetom 3y ago
It's not the standard that made it reliable for you, it's the company that made/maintained the chargers. The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network.
- parineum 3y ago
  And the company that maintains those chargers uses that standard. We don't want the standard, we want the chargers that work.
- tw04 3y ago
  > The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network. They really aren’t, it just turns out it’s a hard problem. Electrify America was founded by vw as part of the diesel gate settlement. ChargePoint has been around for almost a decade. Then there are a bunch of OEMs producing chargers for the likes of gas station chains and automobile mfgs. About the only place you’ll find fly-by-night nobody’s is in the home charging space and even those are few and far between. It takes a LOT of capital to build a charging network.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    > > The vast majority of these companies are shitty, fly-by-night companies that can't scale up to maintain their network. > They really aren’t, it just turns out it’s a hard problem. Electrify America was founded by vw as part of the diesel gate settlement. Except your sentence there exactly explains why Electrify America is probably the network people love to hate on the most (myself included given the number of times I've visited non-functioning EA chargers), while the Supercharger network is leaps and bounds more reliable. Electrify America was essentially forced into existence as punishment to VW because of dieselgate. Which means it's not surprising that the folks in charge of EA had very little motivation to provide a stellar experience. Contrast this with Tesla, who sees the Supercharger network as an integral part of their business of selling cars. As the owner of a non-Tesla EV who loves my car but is very wary of 3rd party charging networks, you really have to hand it to Tesla for their work in building out the Supercharger network. They had the foresight to realize how critically important a good charging network would be, so much so that they are now able to dictate the "North America Charging Standard" (which given the history of how that name came about takes a ton of chutzpah, but that's a discussion for another post...) for the rest of the automakers - basically all the other EV makers have announced transitions to NACS. So, yes, it may be debatable to call the other charging networks "fly-by-night" companies, but I'll definitely agree with the "shitty" aspect. There are just tons and tons and tons of non-functioning chargers, and the comparison with the reliability of Superchargers is extremely stark.
biomcgary 3y ago
Network effects drive Tesla sales. In this case, the network of chargers. I was a Tesla passenger for a short trip from Seattle to Vancouver and the charging at the Tesla "station" was quick and easy. Other stations were a roll of the dice and highly inconvenient.

deleted 3y ago

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ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago

Paywalled, sorry.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

thesuitonym 3y ago

The main thing about these chargers is that nobody is monitoring them. At a gas station, an attendant is usually less than 20 feet away, and if anyone has a problem, they come talk to that person immediately. That attendant usually can't fix the problem on their own, but they can take steps to get it fixed quickly. By contrast, electric charging stations are typically at the far end of a vast sea of parking. There's nothing, and nobody around, so vandals take advantage, and even when they don't, things just break and there's nobody around to tell about it. And the whole payment scheme is ridiculous. Imagine a gas station that didn't accept cash, or that you needed an app to pay for. Again, the main problem is that there's nobody around to account for when things go wrong.

dylan604 3y ago
The systems definitely have a method to communicate for payments, they should add a button to report issues with charger. Of course it's ripe for the button being pressed randomly, but I'm sure there's a smart person that can automate the messages received to catch that. But at least it would provide a possible mechanism to have frustrated users report these unattended units
- mayama 3y ago
  It is more of installers/maintainers not interested in fixing the chargers. They would already have information about how much is being payed for each charger and from that would know some charger is broken.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I'm sure the installers/maintainers are not the blame here though. Of course they'd like to get paid for doing it. It's the owners of the equipment that don't want to pay for the maintenance. Let's place the blame at the appropriate feet here.
- giantg2 3y ago
  There's really no reason 95% of issues couldn't be caught through self diagnostics. The easiest thing for the button press is to rely on repeated presses at longer intervals, like 3 presses with at least 15 minutes between the first and last within a 2 hour window.

fjskk333a 3y ago

unpaywalled: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken/ar-AA1jXDcA https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120... . Microsoft to the rescue.

dang 3y ago
Changed above from https://www.wsj.com/tech/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken-7a5d3e45 https://www.wsj.com/tech/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-thre.... Thanks!
- plorg 3y ago
  With all due respect, this is just the original article re-hosted, which I was under the impression we were advised against submitting as the canonical link. I really dislike MSN links like this because they make it very difficult to find that actual original URL without going back out to a search engine, and the page is cluttered with advertisement and pushes for Microsoft services. The only indication this was published by WSJ is a badge next to the headline and once you scroll the headline out of view there is no other indication this is published by WSJ and not Microsoft. Arguably sites like archive.ph do a better job of showing attribution than MSN does.

jonpurdy 3y ago

I had a Spark EV with CCS connector and charged around the Bay Area many times. Apparently my model of car had design issues with the connector and half the time I'd have to try a different charging station. I mostly charged at home but this was annoying when doing local road trips. Currently renting an Ioniq 5 in Florida (cost barely more than a petrol vehicle). Aside from a lack of L3 chargers near Indian Shores, the closest Electrify America near me was perpetually busy and one of the chargers was out of commission. Edit: the L2 chargers nearby require an app, need a payment method added, and require minimum top-ups (waste of money for a rental). And the closest one near me is out of commission anyway. Compare this to my anecdotal Tesla situation: rented a Model 3 a couple of years ago and every time I'd plug in it would work perfectly (and no need to authenticate or deal with payment). I love driving EVs but the fast charging situation must be rectified. My old Spark would only do 130 km on a charge and this new Ioniq does 450 km, so less of an issue. But for road trips, messing around with unreliable chargers is a non-starter for a lot of folks. (archive.is doesn't show full article but MSN does: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken/ar-AA1jXDcA https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120...)

jeffbee 3y ago
I wonder if the Spark shares that flaw with the Bolt EV. When Gig car share had a fleet of Bolts and an agreement with EVgo my experience was that the connections were dodgy and frequently the charging station would claim some kind of fault.
- jonpurdy 3y ago
  From my understanding, the Bolt corrected the issue (which made it even worse for my Spark since there was no desire to fix the chargers to work around the issue).
qdog 3y ago
Yeah, it's pretty clear Tesla is still the best EV experience. I'm just waiting till the next gen of EVs to have proper connectors before I will consider another one. Our model Y is fine, but I don't want to buy another vehicle from them with Musk at the helm, and they don't plan to have a regular pickup anyways.

xrd 3y ago

A few months back I had to go to Palm Beach for work. It was right when Miami was flooding. That's over two hours away. But, the Port Everglades, which is where the tankers unload, was flooded too, and even up in Palm Beach there was no gas. I drove in there with low fuel, thinking it wouldn't be an issue since I was so far north. But, then couldn't find gas at all the next day, and driving around and seeing tons of frustrated drivers at various gas stations was haunting. But, hey, I have a hybrid Mini, so I can just go to a charging station, right? What a mess. There are at least two different chargers, and the Tesla ones don't work with my car unless I get a "Tesla Tap" (which I didn't have at the time). And, when you look on the dozens of apps out there, you will see charging stations, and then when you get there, realize it is a freaking outlet in a lamp post in the parking lot of a mall. I'm not joking. If I plugged in the cable I carry in the back of my car, it would have taken 8-12 hours to charge up to the full 18 miles I get on my car. Some of the stations just didn't work at all. The apps that you use to turn them on are the worst rated apps on the app stores. As an aside, trying to charge is a horrific experience when you are not in your hometown. But, and I'm not sure if this is just Florida or what (judging by the article, seems like no), even my "hometown" of 100k+ people has almost no working charging stations downtown. It is hilarious that the charging station in front of the power company does not work. When I was in Palm Beach, I drove around to at least five different charging stations. None of them worked. I parked next to a Rivian and admired his range and the ability to charge at those stations which did not work with my car port. Or, finding charging stations which did work with my car, but had no cables open. I finally found a gas station that had gas, and I remember being so relieved. This was the first time I realized that at least with gas, I can fill up and hand over the pump to the next person. But, with electric, you are not only looking for a working charger, but one that isn't in use. The infrastructure isn't there when there is even a slight weather event, and I can't imagine what it would be like in a true emergency when I couldn't just pull over and work on my laptop at a cafe nearby.

nathanaldensr 3y ago
I guess, downvoted because you dared share an anecdote about how vulnerable EVs are in certain circumstances? It seems like people will have to relearn the hard way just why gasoline is probably the best energy storage medium ever invented.

zerbinxx 3y ago

fwiw there’s a ton of upcoming (and heavily debated/not yet implemented/understood) regulations around EV chargers that will absolutely nuke some of the shittier app-centric/not really functional charging systems that people rely on today. I’m not a Tesla fan per se, but it is remarkable how much better life is for Tesla owners vs. the huddled masses roaming the frozen wastes looking for a charger that can actually dispense a charge or provide users with some useful error feedback.

jauntywundrkind 3y ago
The US's Federal Highway Administration announced rules National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) program. NEVI is being created under Biden's Build America, Buy America Act (enacted as part of Biden's Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, 2021). It provides funding for states to build out, maintain, and monitor EV charging solutions, and sets up common standards required for chargers funded. Chargers have to be remotely monitorable, offer public real time status, price, and historical uptime information, for each port. Chargers have to be Open Charge Point Protocol (OCPP) 1.6J or higher, (2.0.1 in 2025) and Open Charge Point Interface (OCPI) 2.2.1 roaming compliant by 2025. They must use 15118-3 and be dual -2 and -20 capable (the standard green phy transport, with Plug & Charge interface on that). DC charge ports must each provide at least 150kW and have to support 250-920V DC voltages. I believe there are also requirements around reliability & uptime, but I haven't found those yet. I think most of this program is ultimately done through the states, with the federal government paying 80%. My hope is that there's a big enough pool of funding here to compel businesses to get compliant. I do think the standards here are such that compliant charging stations will offer a good experience to consumers! The public access data requirements also make me think consumers will have a much better time understanding what options they have available, and whether those options seem trustworthy! Link dumps: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03... https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/12744 https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/12744 https://www.edrv.io/guide/nevi-minimum-standards-for-ev-charging-infrastructure https://www.edrv.io/guide/nevi-minimum-standards-for-ev-char...
bdcravens 3y ago

snapetom 3y ago

I have now rented two electric vehicles this past year, both for semi-long distance trips. The first was a Kia from SF to Sacramento, and back a few days later, thinking this was California and it should be fine. I tried to use twelve stations and seven were broken/out of order for various reasons. I was so shocked about the sad state of affairs on this, I logged/blogged it. The problems were pretty much like the article: 1) Generally out of order message or off for some unknown reason. 2) One had a blatant electrical problem where it charged and then stopped as soon as I walked away. Thinking I was charged, but wasn't. 3) Appear to work, but the payment system was out of order. 4) One was on, but the UI was completely unresponsive. Worker at the business said, "It hasn't been working for almost a year now." 5) App didn't work. Generally, all apps in this space suck bad. Whether it's finding stations or the actual vendor, they are all slow and clunky at best with terrible UIs. The second was a trip from Boston to central Connecticut and back last month. There was a shortage of cars in the city. Logan was out of cars and I had to go to a neighborhood rental on the outskirts. On top of the shortage was Hertz's botched EV initiative, so there was only one Chevy Volt available at 33% charge. This experience was even worse. Again, over half the stations I encountered were broken for the same reasons. On top of that, there was essentially just one supercharging station on I-95 from Central CT to Boston, which I missed. It took me three hours because I had to preserve enough charge to make it back to Logan and take my flight out. By the time I got to the Boston Tunnel, the car went into "limited propulsion mode." I fully expected to die in the tunnel on a Friday evening and miss my flight. The whole thing reminded me that charging stations are complex machines with a myriad of things that can go wrong. On top of that, all these companies are startups who concentrate on growth and marketshare instead of creating an actual reliable usable product. 99% of people can't name one of these companies, and being the best, most trusted charging company is not the goal. I'm not renting an electric vehicle for a long time. The best use case would be within a city, and unless I'm purposely driving all over a city, I might as well just take public transportation or uber.

ukd1 3y ago
Try renting a Tesla next time; the network for charging is great, and I think I've only ever had one failure in years, and just moved stalls.

david422 3y ago

I have an electric vehicle that I charge in my garage. One day that charger broke and I had to charge at other locations for several weeks. There are very few fast chargers in my area. When they were not in use, some were broken. This leaves a pretty big dilemma: My car is low on juice, where do I go? By the time I actually get to an unused charger, it might be taken, or it might be broken. As long as it's not broken, I might have to wait for a charger to free up, especially a location that only has a single charger. And then wait for my car to charge. This can add up to a significant amount of time, and even more so if I have to use a non-fast charger. This time sink is very difficult to work around when you have other responsibilities. I can only imagine that as people get more EVs, this problem will get a lot worse until infrastructure improves.

Symbiote 3y ago
If it's in your garage, can't you just plug it in to a normal outlet?
- david422 3y ago
  Only if I had a working charger, yes. The piece between the wall outlet and the car was what was broken.
  - steelframe 3y ago
    I've got 4 largely-independent L2 chargers so I don't ever have to worry about a broken charger leaving me up a creek without a paddle. One Clipper Creek plugged into a NEMA 14-50 outlet that's lasted 12 years so far, another Clipper Creek hardwired on another circuit. If the charger with the plug fails I've got my mobile L2 charger and my old Tesla mobile charger with a J1772 adapter. For road trips over 150 miles I just use my PHEV. I don't recall the last time I needed to use a public rapid charging station.
bdcravens 3y ago
Was it plugged into a standard 220 outlet? Since I bought mine and my wife's EVs last year, I've used a relatively cheap level 2 charger (about $200) and if it broke I'd Amazon a new replacement in a couple of days. (Perhaps that's the case, and I'm not judging anyone's circumstances; just pointing out that many seem to think the chargers are much more expensive, but the cheaper ones seem to work fine)

whoopdedo 3y ago

My city tapped into a federal grant a few years ago to put a charger in one of the parking lots. The problem is they never budgeted maintenance so it's never worked since the day it was built.

smileysteve 3y ago
They've done this without thinking of the incentives much too. A supercharger station I visit is on the outskirts of an old mall (dead after 8pm) parking lot (with no pedestrian experience to the mall). It is okay to go get a milkshake or cookie at until 9 and the walk and bathroom break can top up on supercharger nicely. (The mall bathroom though is poorly maintained) Or my state incentived chargers at State and city parks that are theoretically closed at dusk, and have no full time maintenance staff or security. Who did this seeing gas stations and thought, let's put this charger in place that is busy only on fair weather days, not safe at dark (be it wildlife, crime, or the ability to injure yourself), with no secondary revenue (snacks, food) or even bio (restrooms closed after dark or you have to walk through a basketball practice) and said, this is the infrastructure we need. The power co has wisened up now though and worked with gas stations to add a few chargers.

SkyPuncher 3y ago

I almost bought a KIA EV6 two weeks back. The thing that stood out to me was the unreal amount of broken chargers. Tesla charger always seemed to work, but the non-Tesla chargers were broken or slow charging an amazing amount of the time. * At the base level, it looked annoying. Repeating the charging process several times to find the "blessed" charger. You were lucky if the charger was actually labelled as broken. * More seriously, the terrible condition of the major EV networks basically made it nearly impractical for a key long drive I need to do. If I wanted to do the trip on a single charging stop, I'd risk getting stranded at a broken fast charger, 50+ miles from the nearest working fast charger. If I stopped 50 miles earlier, I'd need a second stop no matter what. In winter conditions, it was unclear if I'd even be able to make the drive without 3 or 4 stops. I'm extremely excited that NACS is coming to more vehicles. No only does it increase availability, but it drastically increases reliability. I'd feel comfortable doing that same drive on the Tesla network.

bdcravens 3y ago
I have an EV6, and have done a cross-country trip in it. In my limited experience (Texas to California and back, and then across Texas, which is a 200+ mile trip one way) the freeway chargers are pretty dependable, but the ones in the major cities are of lower quality. That said, it is nerve-racking, and I do find myself stopping more often than necessary, "just in case" the next isn't in good condition. I do look forward to a better network like NACS.

julienchastang 3y ago

Happy EV owner here (Nissan Leaf), but I can confirm the charging network is a disaster: - Hard to use charging interfaces where you have to arrive to the station with an account already set up. Why can't you simply use your credit card like you do at a gas station?! (The article addresses this, but still…) - Spotty density (sometimes near, sometimes far) of charging stations. - Unreliable charging stations where you feel like it is a minor miracle when they actually work. I almost never use the charging network opting to charge at home. For out of EV range trips, I use my hybrid. Until EVs are cheaper than ICE vehicles, have the range of an ICE vehicle, and can be charged at the same rate as it takes to fill a tank of gas in a completely reliable manner, I don't really see widespread adoption of EVs in the US. On the other hand, sales of hybrid vehicles in the US are strong [0] [0] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/electric-vehicle-buyer-interest-67b407cb https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/electric-vehicle-buyer-in...

yummypaint 3y ago
I also have a leaf and use it for 90% of household driving. As long as there is a second ICE vehicle available there are never any worries about capacity or charging. Even charging overnight off 120V is sufficient since i dont do much late night driving. It's easy for people who havent lived with an electric to forget about home charging as there is no gasoline equivalent. I think we need more infrastructure to make chargers available to people without off-street parking. Many of these chargers could also be publically available. We need more public-private partnerships or companies who are willing to take on the risk of mass installing chargers.

Eggpants 3y ago

What I don’t understand is why car dealerships haven’t jumped at this opportunity by giving up some parking spots for charging stations. They already have a lounge areas, have displayed cars for folks to consider, and many have some kind of snack bar. Add a cut of the charging fee and you a consistent revenue stream.

yummypaint 3y ago
Many in my area already have. They have the closest free level 3 charger. I have no doubt ill be paying them a visit soon.
jstarfish 3y ago
You missed the most insidious part-- the captive audience envious of all those newer, nicer cars than their own. It sells itself.
Analemma_ 3y ago
IME car dealerships generally aren't located in areas you actually want to go. A lot of them are in the "unwalkable suburban strip mall hell" part of town, and they're also closely clustered together. It makes no sense for them to be a charging destination. Besides, a person who just bought a new EV is possibly the least likely person to get lured into a purchase in your showroom.
smileysteve 3y ago
Wapo had an article last week about how antagonist or unknowledgeable dealers are about new evs. There are some economics that could lead to the conclusion that dealers definitely don't want evs (fewer high margin services on average, except maybe tires for customers that heavy regen, and ultimately fewer new car sales because they fail less)

speps 3y ago

The Aging Wheels channel on YouTube has done a good field test between a Polestar 2 and a Tesla Model 3: https://youtu.be/92w5doU68D8 https://youtu.be/92w5doU68D8

sbierwagen 3y ago
This description undersells it. The Tesla chargers work perfectly... and every single Charging America station he tries to visit is broken in some way. It's half an hour of pain and suffering.

tw04 3y ago

Non-paywall link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120-ev-chargers-three-reasons-why-so-many-were-broken/ar-AA1jXDcA https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120... The single biggest issue with the “open” charging network at this point, in my opinion, is that it’s made up of so many different hardware vendors. At a single EA site you may have 3 different manufacturers of hardware. If something breaks you’ve got three completely different architectures that likely have a different technician required to fix, and definitely different internal components. Then add on the software layer that needs to look identical to end users but is also unique per vendor. Tesla on the other hand owns the stack end to end. It would be like trying to build HN utilizing dell servers running Linux, hpe servers running windows, and Lenovo servers running FreeBSD all trying to look like a single standardized interface to the end user. The overhead and areas for issues are immense. I understand why someone like EA doesn’t want to be single sourced but what they’re doing clearly isn’t working.

cainxinth 3y ago

TLDR: 27% were out of order, nearly 10% of the working stalls had payment issues, and a handful failed at the handshake (car and charger wont connect).

aidenn0 3y ago

The payment thing just boggles my mind. I've been paying at card readers at a gas pump for 20 years now and exactly once did it not work. It's the one thing that has been completely solved in industry, and it doesn't work with EVs.

bdcravens 3y ago
I've run into more failures than that at gas pumps, but it is mostly rare like you say. However in almost all cases, they're on the same network as the gas station POS, and I assume hard-wired. The card readers I see at EV spots seem to less durable, similar to the card readers you see on vending machines. I bet they mostly are using cellular to communicate.
- inamberclad 3y ago
  That probably comes down to how the infrastructure is built out. A lot of companies are selling EV systems that can be installed in a pre-existing parking lot. A gas station requires installing large underground tanks, so it's not much extra effort to throw the data wires. In order to convince someone a business to install an EV charger, every little bit of effort counts.
darknavi 3y ago
Not to excuse it but most gas pumps I've been too are in covered areas where as EV chargers are not normally. Card readers surely should be weather resistant but EV chargers could use more cover.
hakfoo 3y ago
FWIW, I think the card industry itself is having to rethink a lot of stuff for EVs. Petrol pumps with card readers are their own little universe of rules and compliance standards within the credit card industry (the formal term is 'Automated Fuel Dispenser'). It's far enough afield that you're looking at specialized software and vendors, in part because a lot of them support fleet cards, which range from "95% normal Visa/Mastercard, but restricted to a specific merchant category" to "completely different network with its own messaging model". There's been a lot of new spec documents floating around to accomodate differences due to the EV fueling concepts. I suspect the ways we described petrol-- gallons and grades-- don't perfectly map to electricity, and fleet card customers are looking for similar trackability.

testfoobar 3y ago

Anyone work on EV chargers? Other than cable damage or mechanical damage to the plugs, there are no moving parts. So what specifically inside is likely to stop functioning or needs regular repairs/replacement/maintenance?

s_tec 3y ago
I recently build my own a level 2 EV charger from an OpenEVSE kit. The heart of the charger is a big mechanical relay, which connects and disconnects the charging cable based on whether a car is connected. To control the relay, there is a small circuit board that communicates with the car, and also provides over-current, over-temperature, and GFCI monitoring. If any of these things go wrong, the relay will not close and the car will not charge. The DC fast chargers include similar safety features, in addition to a big AC-DC converter. The DC power supply puts out several hundred amps at whatever voltage the car requests (usually 300V, but sometimes much higher). Normally, currents this high would require super thick & heavy cables, but DC fast chargers often avoid this using water cooling and active temperature monitoring in the cable. As the cable heats up from the excessive current, the charging equipment actively throttles the charging session to keep things from melting. So yeah, there are a few mechanical things that can go wrong.
- testfoobar 3y ago
  Thank you. I didn't know about the complexity of the charging platform and power delivery cables. TIL that charging cables can be water cooled. Going to geek out a bit on this tonight.
- Karrot_Kream 3y ago
  To deal with the high current on such relatively high (keyword here: relatively) gauge wire there's also massive active cooling involve. This adds even more to the complexity.
jjtheblunt 3y ago
I am pretty sure there are moving parts including a solenoid or relay and fans.

bdcravens 3y ago

I drove from Houston to San Diego and back a year ago in my EV6, limiting myself to Electrify America chargers (as I had 1000KW credit, and they seemed to be the only option close to the freeway). It was fine, though most locations had around 1/4 of the stalls inoperable. In the last year, the EA locations here in Houston have been terrible, with many stalls broken or in low-speed maintenance mode. (Thankfully I charge at home most of the time) I drove from Houston to Dallas and back this weekend, the first time I've done a road trip since last year. All of the EA spots seemed to be in much better shape than in Houston. I'm guessing EA allocates more resources to keep those going, given the criticality for drivers in those locations.

jandrese 3y ago

IMHO the state of the charging network is a major disincentive against buying any CCS equipped EV in the US. Fortunately over the next couple of years every company is switching to NACS and will in theory be able to use Tesla's charging network. This is not great news for the cars bought this year or next though, it would be like buying Betamax.

p1mrx 3y ago
NACS will use the same signalling protocol as CCS, which means existing vehicles will be able to charge from NACS using a passive adapter. CHAdeMO may be the new Betamax, but CCS is more like VHS-C.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  How will payment work if the adapter is passive?
  - p1mrx 3y ago
    Probably app, card, or plug and charge, depending on what's supported. Payment methods are orthogonal to the connector type.
  - pornel 3y ago
    Latest supercharger model has a card payment terminal on the side. For older superchargers you pay via app by specifying stall number manually.
rr808 3y ago
Isn't it easy to have an adapter? Its weird that US is using NACS and Europe CCS, I guess it isn't much different to power socks.
clouddrover 3y ago
NACS is CCS with Tesla's plug on the end. 2019 Teslas and earlier won't be able to use it without a CCS retrofit. You'll be able to use CCS cars can use a passive adapter. And maybe some manufacturers will also offer retrofits. The EV infrastructure situation in North America is stupid and will take a few years yet to shake out. The failure to standardize has been a stupid waste of time and money for everyone.

KingOfCoders 3y ago

Same in Germany. So many broken chargers for weeks. Read through the article, but I still don't know why so many are broken and stay broken, it says "So what was wrong with these particular machines? It could be one of many things—a broken part, a power issue, a defective connector." I don't need an article to answer why are chargers broken if the answer is "Could be one of many things, ...". Why are gasoline stations mostly never broken and chargers broken all the time? (from my limited EV experience in Germany). Why are they unrepaired? That would be journalism.

arcanemachiner 3y ago
> Why are gasoline stations mostly never broken and chargers broken all the time? I mean... One of these technologies does have a 100 year head start on the other.
- viraptor 3y ago
  Still, I see a single "out of order" pump every once in a while and then a few days later it's working again. The question seems more "why are they allowed to stay broken?"
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    Because gas customers are greater in number, regular, more frequent, and higher paying. Just guessing.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      Regardless, that's most likely leased spaces. If they don't make money, they lose money. And they seem to be off for a significant amount of time given that everyone seems to have a first hand story about it.
      - trimethylpurine 3y ago
        That's true, but I doubt people charging their car represent the bulk of their income. The government pays companies to build new stations. Fixing old ones means your techs are tied up, and you're able to bid on fewer projects, which means less revenue. Again, I'm guessing, but it seems like a decent explanation.

ZeljkoS 3y ago

It gets even worse in other parts of the world: https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-car https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-c...

clouddrover 3y ago
You posted that over three years ago. How are things now?
- ZeljkoS 3y ago
  Honestly, not much better. There are more chargers but also more EVs. New EVs support fast charging above 50kW, but there are very few chargers that offer that.

ryzvonusef 3y ago

WSJ youtube video on the same topic, if you like to have a visual component for this news. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m_z27LJa6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m_z27LJa6o

the_powerless 3y ago

An excellent counter-example to the usual "things with fewer moving parts are more reliable" trope. Design and manufacture play a much greater role in reliability.

okokwhatever 3y ago

I have no proof but I have no doubt EV charger companies receive succulent donations from the state for the number of chargers without specifying their operational status. Total win for them in the long term.

Schiendelman 3y ago
They used to. This has dramatically changed with new federal regulations around chargers.

spacehunt 3y ago

Interesting. Here in Hong Kong, apparently the non-Tesla chargers work so well, the Superchargers often lie empty because most Teslas charge at non-Tesla chargers as they are usually cheaper.

bdavbdav 3y ago

“Charging-company executives I spoke to think the Tesla network will have trouble supporting many different EV models” Feels like something they would say.

zzzcsgo 3y ago

The ones I visited were not broken but they cost a fortune to use

more_corn 3y ago

What a fucking joke.