17 ms·

Casino-like apps have drained people of millions

291 points by apsec112 3y ago

richwater 3y ago
This, along with sports betting is the new smoking tax for dumb people. There will always be a substantial part of the population who can't think critically, save money, etc.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  I don’t ascribe becoming addicted to thinking critically. Anyone can fall into addiction. I also don’t ascribe the inability to save money to be by stupidity. A substantial minority of the population in general is disabled, and society really isn’t good at supporting disabled people with complex medical needs— work is rarely adaptable to regular medical treatments for example.
- mplewis 3y ago
  Addiction isn’t rational and it isn’t related to financial planning or critical thinking.
- dymk 3y ago
  Hope you never need opiates for an injury and have a family history of substance abuse, it's more common than you might think
namanyayg 3y ago
I'm not sure I follow, why is anyone playing these games at all? What's the benefit, or what's the social aspect? How do the clubs work to encourage more playing? I found the article to be a bit sparse on these details. Maybe there's another source?
- afavour 3y ago
  Surely you could ask all the same questions of physical casinos? The answer to most of the question is “addiction”.
  - namanyayg 3y ago
    How is that the same? You can earn real money in a physical casino, here you cannot
    - b112 3y ago
      For most people, you can't earn anything at a casino. Almost no one comes out ahead, because no one leaves when ahead. They just keep playing, until all their money is gone. Sounds like these apps are more honest.
    - beremaki 3y ago
      Addiction is not related to the potential benefits of the habit. You can get addicted about anything depending on your personal dispositions. Simply said lot of "games" are disguised Skinner boxes, people with addictive personalities are very vulnerable to those.
    - dartos 3y ago
      Addicts don’t gamble in order to make money, that’s just what gets you in the door. Once you’re in that addiction cycle, you crave the dopamine rush and play just for the feeling of maybe winning back a big loss even when in reality a big win probably won’t even make you break even. It’s why people just sit in front of slot machines for hours on end.
      - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
        Actually the dopamine rush isn’t in winning. Slot machines are all flashing lights, overwhelming colors, patterns, and matching patterns designed to provide dopamine rushes purely through stimulation. The point isn’t even in the potential of winning anymore, it’s getting lost in matching patterns and pretty lights where the world disappears for as long as possible. Slot machines are designed to maximize engagement and winning actually interrupts it with rewards (slot machine addicts have actually reported being upset when the slot machine pays out, because it ruins their trance like state!)
- oldtownroad 3y ago
  Addiction isn’t rational so the answer may be as unsatisfying as “people got addicted because they got addicted”. Many people addicted to real slot machines are addicted because you press a button and something happens, the fact that you can win real money is not much of a differentiator between these apps and real slot machines — because addicts in a casino aren’t walking away in profit either.
  - wafriedemann 3y ago
    Justifying their behaviour with 'addiction' makes them completely unresponsible for their actions. If that's the case you'd have to declare them incompetent for doing business and assign them an agent.
    - scotty79 3y ago
      Not every explanation is justification.
    - just_boost_it 3y ago
      That's a fairly unempathetic view. I don't know what it's like to be a gambler, but I do know that anyone who thinks they are completely rational is only fooling themselves. We are emotional animals with a tiny rational voice that can only shunt our emotions in a better direction.
      - aaomidi 3y ago
        To add to your point, these are companies with the ability to spend millions to get research done on the most efficient way to manipulate people. This isn’t just gambler vs some other person. This is one person against a resource pool worth millions of dollars. No individual in aggregate has a chance against that.
      - Waterluvian 3y ago
        I think my number one pet peeve of this species is that people are so strongly inclined to assume that everyone’s experience is about the same as their experience. Empathy can be such an uphill battle.
- enlightenedfool 3y ago
  Playing apart, it’s surprising they spend 1000s of dollars.
- 1f60c 3y ago
  From my experience playing a popular blackjack social casino game, they seem free to make you hit a blackjack at just the right time to keep the dopamine (and real money) flowing.
- _fat_santa 3y ago
  One of my friends showed me an "casino" app on his phone where they don't give you real money but you can earn (or buy) "premium currency" that can be redeemed for various rewards like a free dinner in Vegas or 20-50% off a room, which I would assume Big Fish Casino is doing something similar. It could be that or it could be the big A word that casino's hate (addiction).
- jdietrich 3y ago
  I can't give a short answer, but IMO the best long answer is the book Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll. https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/addiction-by-design https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/ad...
- cal85 3y ago
  Occasional, unpredictable, variable rewards, with corresponding colourful splashes and satisfying noises, providing a temporary escape from uncomfortable feelings.
- simonw 3y ago
  I can guess. These are games where you earn points (in the form of tokens). Those points place you on a leaderboard within your club. Just like if you were playing any their game which gives you a score and let's you compare your score with other people. The catch here is that the games are all simulated Casino games - and one way to boost your score if you got "unlucky" is to spend real money on more fake tokens. The games are "fun" because they emulate 100+ years of casino development in terms of figuring out what mechanisms people enjoy the most.
  - phatfish 3y ago
    Yup, it's like Euro Truck Simulator, but you simulate being a gambling addict. Oops...
- andy800 3y ago
  Why do people play Tetris or any other game? For most it is just a fun way to pass some time. However for others, it's an obsession that is prioritized over real-life -- jobs, finances, etc. The clubs appear to be like guilds or teams in online games, players collaborate for high scores and to maintain a ranking on a leaderboard. The problem is that once someone joins a team, they feel pressure to generate points to contribute to the team's success, which often requires in-app payments to obtain more coins to wager.
- TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
  Operates on the same mechanism as gambling, variable ratio reinforcement schedule - i.e. the player is rewarded after a random number of "responses"; similar to a slot machine.
- matwood 3y ago
  I got addicted to an MMO (DAoC) long ago. Luckily for me it didn't cost me much money other than the bot accounts I bought and maintained. But, it did cost me other things. I dropped out of grad school, stopped working out, stagnated at my job, and became completely obsessed with the game. I treated it as a second job. Looking back the why seems silly and embarrassing - I was part of a guild that needed my help. Eventually I had a long term relationship end over the game. The next day I gave all my accounts away and never played again. I still play single player games when I have time, but definitely no MMOs.
  - metabagel 3y ago
    I’m sorry for how this impacted your life, but congratulations for doing what you needed to do.
    - matwood 3y ago
      Thank you. Everything worked out fine :)
- wredue 3y ago
  It’s the exact same reason why Destiny The Game subreddit consistently argued in favour of KRPG drop rates till it got to the point that not even the basement dwellers could get anything they wanted: They are addicted to “exclusivity”. This same type of thing impacts all video games with gambling aspects or drop rates. I’ve played Diablo 2 for decades and have never once dropped a rune higher ist, and the sub vehemently defends those drop rates. Many defended the Diablo 4 Uber rare rates. What’s the point in playing just for some strange exclusivity? Who knows. Gotta ask the people that defend the ever increasing annoying rarity of shit on the premise that they believe they alone play enough to end up in some sort of exclusive club of owners.
  - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
    People who play a lot want to feel that their "time investment" was "worth it". If things are too common that anyone playing 1 hour/day can get the same stuff as someone playing 16 hours/day then the latter group feel like they are "wasting their time". I would say, just play a different game that doesn't have this toxic reward system.
afavour 3y ago
I know it’s just the inevitability of capitalism but I’m just old enough to remember the early days of the internet (via a 9.6kbps modem if I recall!) and it was such a wonderful, positive force. Every now and then I’ll look back and reflect on how distant that memory feels these days. Locked down proprietary app stores with apps designed to do nothing other than part addicts from their money. Sigh.
- mrits 3y ago
  Do you remember the anarchist community that loaded up BBSs with bomb making and animal torture material?
  - omgsharks 3y ago
    Definitely. And all of their 25 users. It was literally a non-issue even back then but titles like The Terrorist’s Handbook and The Anarchist’s Cookbook had a lot of shock value. Animal torture is such a fringe and infinitely small area that even if it’s deplorable it’s not, and never has been, prevalent in any meaningful way. Funny enough the first fallout we had among admins when we started The Pirate Bay was about a cat torture video that forced us to take a stance on freedom/anti-censorship vs decency and compassion. (The latter won, but not without losses in the team because they found it hypocritical that we “censored” uploads.)
    - mrits 3y ago
      Animal torture is highly prevalent in the world. It's even part of our mainstream supply chain from food, cosmetics, or medicine. Torture for the sole purpose of torture is what you are describing and not what I was referring to.
    - ok123456 3y ago
      I remember some high school kids dying during that period after trying to follow pipe bomb tphile recipes. There was bad press, but for 99% of people, using a computer to do this was so abstract that it didn't create any lasting moral panic.
sokoloff 3y ago
> But unlike the gambling market, apps like Jackpot Magic and Big Fish Casino are under little oversight to determine whether they are fair or whether their business practices are predatory. The apps are upfront that there is no possibility for a payout, right? It seems stupid to spend money other than for entertainment on these apps, but it doesn’t seem likely to me that the app is unfair.
- dchung333 3y ago
  It's a skinners box. People will put money in for the dopamine rush it gives. Think candy crush or vampire stories. They're paying for an experience. In a sense the people spending money are victims of predatory gaming mechanics. If you've payed for anything in any video game to enhance your experience like getting an upgraded weapon it's the same exact thing. Turns out there's an audience that's willing to pay this money. Or it's a money laundering scheme but who really knows.
- dartos 3y ago
  The issue is that there are some people who physically can’t help but pour all their money into these skinner boxes. The insidious and unfair bit comes in when you realize that these companies specifically engineer their apps to take advantage of people with that kind of addictive personality disorder. Check out the talk “Let’s go whaling” to really see what I mean. He opens the talk with “let’s set ethics aside for an hour”
  - partitioned 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - beedeebeedee 3y ago
      Imagine saying that about someone with any other disability- your sentiment is beyond crass
      - tarheels100 3y ago
for1nner 3y ago
We knew this about casinos. That's why they were relegated to a little hellish desert town. What happened that we decided apps somehow solved the problems related to gambling?
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Out of sight, out of mind.
- zeven7 3y ago
  The odd difference here is people supposedly do this knowing they can’t win their money back (which is shocking to me). I assume the argument is they’re paying for entertainment.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    You never got momoney back from pacman yet people spent a lot of money on video games.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - arrowsmith 3y ago
    I can only imagine the boardroom meeting where this idea was first proposed. "So you're saying it's like a slot machine, except they can't win anything and just give us free money? Are you insane? What kind of idiot would sign up to that?" Two weeks and a beta test later: "I'm so sorry I doubted you."
- LargeTomato 3y ago
  For me, I want to have a little here and there. It's fun, I like putting $20 in with my friends and we get a little pool going. I don't understand why I can't gamble because someone else has no self control. My same argument applies to alcohol, marijuana, fast food, etc.
23B1 3y ago
Smartphones and candy crush will be our generation's cigarettes. FAANG = Big Tobacco.
- Zambyte 3y ago
  Slightly unrelated to the OP but: I think that in a more prefect world, the legality of parasocial internet use (which smartphones do a great job of enabling and encouraging) should be tied to the legality of cannabis use. Too young? Shouldn't be able to use it. In a public place? It's rude and inconsiderate to those around to start using your phone / smoking; there should be designated areas where it is allowed.
- dymk 3y ago
  FAANG isn't making candy crush, or any of these addicting mobile games for that matter
  - 23B1 3y ago
    What a silly comment. McDonalds doesn't make poisonous coca-cola, they just distribute it.
    - dymk 3y ago
      You think cola is poison?
      - 23B1 3y ago
        You don't?
        dymk 3y ago
        In the same way that a slice of cake is poison, sure.
- sneak 3y ago
  Tobacco kills 50% of its users. Smartphones and apps do not.
gjvc 3y ago
Ethics in programming right here.
0xbadcafebee 3y ago
It's social media, but instead of advertisers paying them, it's the users paying them. Same addictive tactics, same pointless entertainment.
1f60c 3y ago
(2020) But more to the point, these "social casino games" (as they're known in literature) should probably be outlawed.
namanyayg 3y ago
I was wondering where I had heard the name "Big Fish Games". I just realised that they created Virtual Villagers which was a huge part of my childhood, I loved that game. I also enjoyed Fish Tycoon and Diner Dash by them. Seems like they got sold to a casino operator? Unfortunate that this is what makes money.
- lionkor 3y ago
  They also published some Nancy Drew games, I believe, one of which im currently reverse engineering!
  - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
    Pardon my tone, but what could possibly be of value to RCE in a mass-market mobile-gaming app?
    - isidor3 3y ago
      Maybe some personal enjoyment?
    - firtoz 3y ago
      I'm not OP, but, reverse engineer all things. You can learn how they are made, you can learn reverse engineering in general, you can make mods, hacks, cheats, spinoffs.
    - mplewis 3y ago
      They’re not mobile games. https://www.bigfishgames.com/us/en/games/1207/nancydrewdangerbyd/?pc&lang=en https://www.bigfishgames.com/us/en/games/1207/nancydrewdange...
    - lionkor 3y ago
      Theyre not mobile games, they are pretty old point and click adventure games, with lovely art and humor. The reverse engineering is interesting because they rolled their own engine and most of the game is written in Lua 5.1. I also personally find it interesting as the binaries and code in general is tiny, so its a good way to learn.
wafriedemann 3y ago
The money is obviously of better use in the hands of others. No harm done here.
- dartos 3y ago
  I’m guessing you’re joking, but some people who can’t help but become addicted to skinner boxes have dependants. Children, families, tenants even. Those people are harmed.
- metabagel 3y ago
  scammer credo
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  Easy to say when it's not your loved one.
Eumenes 3y ago
> After a long legal battle, 2 million players, including Shellz and her husband, will be eligible to get a small part of their losses back — about 20 percent for those who lost $10,000 to $100,000. This is ridiculous - are people incapable of free will anymore? I'm sick of "journalists" painting people as victims for gleefully engaging in reckless behavior. Remember the idiots who lost millions on Robinhood and tried to claim it was "too easy" to lose money via day trading? Or children "addicted" to loot boxes in video games? I know this is HN and the inevitable comment regarding pHd pSyChOlOgIsTs designing dark patterns into these apps so people have no agency over themselves. My guess is there's some ambulance chasing law firm sourcing these poor fools, they use the PR circus to generate buzz about how they're poor victims, then they broker back door deals with the companies to get some settlement vs the negative press. Idk who the negative press works on - there are actual victims in this world, and these people are NOT victims.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  Why do you have no curiosity when presented with a phenomenon that doesn’t make sense to you?
  - Eumenes 3y ago
    what's the phenomenon? how dumb and gullible the average person is? > We lie in bed next to each other, we have two tablets, two phones and a computer and all these apps spinning Reel Rivals at the same time am i supposed to feel bad?
    - flappyeagle 3y ago
      How can you not feel bad reading that?
      - Eumenes 3y ago
        Mostly because its pathetic and in a way, its poetic justice. Smart enough to save six figures, most definitely didn't cry victimhood when they "won big", but dumb enough to think that setting up multiple devices could improve their odds. Seems like they're sore losers, not victims.
matt123456789 3y ago
"Suzie Kelly of Dallas previously told Reveal News how she spent about $400,000 on the game. She took out a home equity loan and used the money she inherited when her mother died to fund her habit." This is a symptom of problem gambling. The article makes it sound like this app is exploiting the same neurological reward pathways as regular gambling, and causing the same kinds of damage. The lack of monetary reward might prevent more people from trying this compared to other apps where winning money is a possibility, but exactly the same kind of people will get hooked on this version, and in the same way, and cause the same kind of damage as problem gambling for money.
- rjh29 3y ago
  Surely it's even worse, because it's available 24/7 wherever you are, instead of being somewhere you have to physically visit.
  - maneesh 3y ago
    Plenty of online casinos exist as well.
    - preciousoo 3y ago
      Why the deflection? Both are a problem, no? One just slips past the “oh gambling is bad for you” mental defense
      - sneak 3y ago
        Problem for whom? We also have luxury stores selling expensive designer goods that people waste millions on. Why do we care so much about this specific form of people wasting their money? What’s wrong with letting people go broke the way they choose?
        cinntaile 3y ago
        I don't think you fully understand the issue if you compare this to people buying expensive designer goods.
xivzgrev 3y ago
What’s interesting is they offer no chance to make money. Instead once you start paying they give you access to special clubs where you compete against each other, have conversations, etc. but of course if you stop paying you lose access to all of these.
- xDetoursx 3y ago
  So if you win, you can't cash out?
  - mplewis 3y ago
    These games provide no cash reward. This is clearly stated in the article.
- tarheels100 3y ago
  That's key because it shows how money isn't the only reward that can encourage unhealthy gambling behavior. It sounds like the victims express feeling of a sunk cost, knowing that if they don't maintain their status with additional purchases, all the previous money spent will have been wasted. If it took them $10k to get there, why throw it all away (and disappoint their "club") if you can keep it rolling for another $100?
dustingetz 3y ago
my lifelong friend who developed schizophrenia as an adult (tick bite while jogging -> lymes disease -> schizophrenia, yes that's a thing) is going through bankruptcy due to these apps. IIUC what happened is after years of use she hit a jackpot (which they allow or cause to happen every now and then), cashed out a big win which generated an IRS Form W-2G, deposited somewhere else across the fiscal year boundary, immediately lost it but now owes a pile of tax. Her net worth is now less than 0; she is currently living in a state funded halfway house after her latest stint in rehab -- having otherwise now reached the point of homelessness for the first time. Historically she has had the apps block her (over a decade of this addiction) but there are always new apps and they obviously target her with advertising. If I have it wrong it's because it's impossible to extract coherent information from a schizophrenic. The only reason to believe this is even real is, how does a schizophrenic know what is a Form W-2G?
- peter_l_downs 3y ago
  The apps discussed in the article do not allow cashing out. Sorry to hear about your friend’s difficulties.
- danielfoster 3y ago
  This is very sad to hear— I am sorry. I also wonder why only older people are getting hooked on these games. Perhaps it is due to changes in the brain? These companies seem to target the weakest.
- nyolfen 3y ago
  > (tick bite while jogging -> lymes disease -> schizophrenia, yes that's a thing) women with schizophrenia actually tend to develop symptoms in their 20s, much later than men; lymes disease is real but also often a fixation for the mentally ill and hypochondriacs since the symptoms are so vague and varied, so it is likely that the bite is irrelevant and she fixated on it as her symptoms were developing for genetic (or whatever) reasons
  - dustingetz 3y ago
    thanks – I didn't know that. She is 39 and was bit in her late 20s, showed early schizophrenia (wrongfully diagnosed as psychosis) in early 30s. So could be.
xDetoursx 3y ago
It's funny because in the mid 90s when online gambling was illegal (U.S.), I joined and played a service located in the Caribbean so I could place sports bets. I won a couple of times and they mailed me an actual check. I lost way more than I won of money I didn't really have, but now that online gambling is legal and I have more disposable cash, there's zero interest in these
agumonkey 3y ago
What if the millions of hours drained on internet were spent in nature or doing stuff in your city ?
- thebigspacefuck 3y ago
  Nature and cities would be filled with people
  - asynchronous 3y ago
    Cue the times during covid when the national parks were overcrowded.
liendolucas 3y ago
Not long ago I've read a very interesting and sad article where it was exposed that teenagers who haven't yet finished high school in Argentina are becoming addicted gamblers on illegal websites. We are talking about kids between 13 and 17 years old (in some cases younger ones) gambling on roulette, sports, anything. Apparently this was intensified during the pandemic. In one case a 14 old asked his grandmother a huge amount of money to keep gambling. What is worse is that on these platforms kids can get loans to keep playing, and one way or another they will get their money back. Here's the link to the article (in spanish): https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/jugamos-una-fichita-en-el-recreo-una-epidemia-de-apuestas-online-se-desato-entre-adolescentes-nid03112023/#/ https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/jugamos-una-fichita-en-...
janejeon 3y ago
Oh wow, just from the title I assumed it was talking about gachas (FGO/Genshin/etc), but no, the "apps" the article is talking about seem to be several orders of magnitudes worse ($100k+) than even gachas (where even fully whaling out on a banner costs you ~$2.5k).
- skippyboxedhero 3y ago
  Gachas are, I think, basically identical. They appeal to a different demo using different processes but a lot of the people who work on games with monetization are using stuff that was learned in the gambling industry (i.e. how to maximize yields, how to treat whales, etc.). Gachas are as problematic as casinos imo.
  - janejeon 3y ago
    > Gachas are, I think, basically identical Which is why I thought the title was about gachas. What I'm trying to point out here is that are extra digits in the amount of money people are losing. This is utterly insane and I'm having a hard time even understanding that number.
theGnuMe 3y ago
Roblox is similar and in some sense even worse cause the kids are younger. There needs to be some curation or something done. Also apple needs to develop better parental controls and we need MDM services that can restrict these apps for people with addictions.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Apreche 3y ago
When someone wants to setup a casino that awards players with real money for winning, it's heavily regulated. Sure, they're allowed to set extremely favorable odds for the house, so it's still a scam. But they actually have to publish those odds and abide by them. And lucky players do actually come out ahead. Slot machines do occasionally pay out jackpots. The most important regulation, IMHO, is we do not allow minors to participate in this activity. This regulation doesn't seem very controversial. But what if someone sets up a casino where there is no chance of a cash payout? No matter what, the player loses 100% of the money they put in. For some reason we do not regulate this kind of casino at all! It's totally wild. This kind of casino should be the MOST regulated, or banned entirely. Worst of all, we let children participate! Slot machines that use worthless virtual currency, award only virtual currency, but let you buy virtual currency with real currency? Playing one of those is worse than playing a real slot machine, or even playing a rigged real slot machine! At least both of those have some non-zero chance of paying out real money. Lootboxes in video games? That's gambling with a 0% payout. All you get are worthless JPGs. And we let children participate! Crane games at the arcade? Those are just vending machines with programmed odds. They are gambling! We let children play them. Baseball, Pokemon, or Magic cards? Other collectibles that come in blind boxes or sealed packs? These are gambling! Sure, some will argue that these are different because no matter what you are getting some minimum prize. A pack of Pokemon cards will always contain 10 cards no matter what. Well, what if I make a $5 slot machine that at minimum always pays out 50 cents no matter what you spin? How is that different from a $4.50 slot machine that has the potential to pay out $0? Changing the odds and payouts doesn't make it not gambling. IMHO, all of these activities should be completely banned for children. No games of chance whatsoever if they cost real money per-play. As for adults, consenting and informed adults can throw away their money if they want. But all of these activities should be heavily regulated. And the casinos that don't pay out a cent should be MORE heavily regulated than the normal ones.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  A lot of entertainment falls into this category though. A $15 movie ticket has a 100% to consume ~2 hours of your life and pay you nothing. A $5 order of fries will pay you about $0.50 worth of potatoes. Go to a ballgame and it’s just as bad as the movies; they’ll charge you for expensive food and drink inside and your favorite team might not even win. Trying to draw a bright, defining line between watching a movie and buying a video game and playing an arcade game or Skeeball seems practically impossible. We don’t want to force everyone to be stuck at home playing “blow the ball of yarn to the opponent’s side of the table”.
H8crilA 3y ago
One thing that I never understood is the idea that "gambling is fun". In the culture that I'm from gambling is considered something left for the "lower class". It's a bit similar to acting up while heavily drunk, not exactly something to be proud of. The first few times that I heard something to the tune of "Vegas, baby!" I honestly thought the person was being funny by ridiculing themselves slightly.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  People find uncertainty and sudden twists engaging. That’s broadly true in humor, books, movies, and gambling. I find gambling on games where the house has a large edge generally uninteresting, but I’ll play craps with friends in Vegas. Games where player skill has an element and games like poker against other players are quite a bit more interesting.
- amalcon 3y ago
  It's essentially a way of hacking your brain to care about something that you otherwise wouldn't. I wouldn't suggest anyone gamble casino-style, because a relative minority has a real pathology there. Still, I've been known to make non-monetary bets on the outcome of sporting events (e.g. "loser cleans up"). It gets you invested in the outcome, which does make it more enjoyable.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Honest question: have you ever tried it? Ever played blackjack at a casino? I've only done it a handful of times, but it's a gigantic exciting roller coaster ride of emotions as you win and lose real amounts of money, whether they're in tens or hundreds of dollars or whatever scale you're at. It's way more exciting than the thrills from a superhero movie in the cinema because it's real life, real money. It's more exciting than sports because it's your win, your money. When you're winning, you can't believe how much fun it is. All your life you were told an honest day's pay for an honest day's work, and now you feel like you've found a magic shortcut! And if you lose, well... next time. You're sure you'll make up for it and then some. It can honestly be hard to imagine until you've tried it. I was similarly confused until I experienced it. But it really taps into something deep in the primate brain, about hopes and dreams fulfilled, about getting lucky and rich, about being special. There's a good reason I've only ever gone a handful of times, and limited myself to a small amount of money. Because it's also scarily easy to see how you could get addicted to that feeling.
BananaaRepublik 3y ago
So what is the takeaway from this? It isn't even the expectation of winning money that keeps people in casinos, just the dopamine hit from a slot machine itself? They would've played with or without reward the whole time?
- amalcon 3y ago
  I think it's more that the reward doesn't need to be valuable to the legal system in order to be valuable to the player. It's relatively easy to convince a minority of people to care about a reward that the legal system doesn't consider valuable. This feels very much like gambling for the player, while simultaneously skirting gambling laws and improving the house edge to 100%. Most people say they don't care about that number at the top right on HN, but somehow there is still an awful lot of complaining about voting patterns. HN is almost entirely unlike a casino, but karma does demonstrate the phenomenon (of getting people to care about a legally meaningless reward).
flappyeagle 3y ago
There’s a reasonable regulation for these things — limit $/hour extracted per player All digital entertainment period outside of live events Whatever it costs to go to a cinema and see a 2hr movie. That’s the limit.
- WXLCKNO 3y ago
  They'll open up a chain of premium cinemas as a benchmark.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  The cynic in me suspects in-app-purchase was a mistake from the get-go. Outlaw all in-app purchase?
rubing 3y ago
[dead]
liendolucas 3y ago
Quote from: https://www.bigfishgames.com/play/bigfishcasino/signup https://www.bigfishgames.com/play/bigfishcasino/signup > "You must be 18+ to access Big Fish Casino/Jackpot Magic Slots. This game does not offer gambling or an opportunity to win real money or prizes. Practice or success at social gaming does not imply future success at gambling." So, you're able to pour them money and no way to get it back. What exactly is the money for then? Why this does not qualify as a scam? Just because of the disclaimer?
- seanalltogether 3y ago
  It's no different then any other online game like clash of clans or pokemon go or even FIFA. You spend money to be allowed to spin the wheel more, the more you spin the better your chance at winning some in game shiny trophy to show off to others competing for the same shiny trophy. The addiction comes purely from the fact that thousands or millions of other people can see your progress and are competing against you to earn better.
  - liendolucas 3y ago
    I see, but they shouldn't be allowed to use the word "casino" then. As far as I know, a casino (virtual or real) is a place where you gamble and have a chance (small but real) to get your money back. So basically people playing through this app are believing that effectively can win money when is not true.
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago
      The first definition of "casino" is a place for social amusement, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/casino https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/casino, and there are non gambling casinos still out there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_Casino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_Casino I don't think many people playing these games are fooled into somehow thinking they'll win their money back. Certainly the 21 big spenders in the article knew they wouldn't.
doctorM 3y ago
Headline reminds me of the recent crypto booms...
crazygringo 3y ago
From the headline, I thought these were regular gambling apps where you win/lose money. But no -- this is something I'd never heard of. These are apps where you can't withdraw winnings. People are spending $100,000's with zero potential reward. I'm... baffled. Although now I guess I'm forced to ask myself, how is this any different from other free-to-play games like virtual multiplayer golf or Mario Kart or whatever that some people have spent $10,000's for equipment/upgrades/cosmetics/etc., that similarly don't equate to anything in the real world.
- iandanforth 3y ago
  I am reminded of this Penny Arcade comic: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/25/an-artifact-of-great-power https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/25/an-artifact-of... "It's so pure I think I'm going to cry."
- treme 3y ago
  it's different because the mechanics are carbon copy of other casino games with tighter reinforcement/addiction potential then other 'regular' games that have more space/process in game experience loop
- pawelduda 3y ago
  Cosmetic is cosmetic, someone likes the way it looks, pays for it, receives the cosmetic - IMO no different from buying any vanity item in real world. Paid upgrades/equipment/unlocks that give advantage to a player in a otherwise free to play game is a shitty spending-fest design that I avoid getting into, maybe unless the spending ceiling is very low. Still, I wouldn't see it as a gambling because there is no randomness involved. The moment game devs add loot boxes though - well, IMO this shit should be banned. Especially when it's stupid obvious that there is no randomness behind the scenes.
- mugwumprk 3y ago
  I think this touches on an idea that isn't necessarily intuitive. People may not always gamble for the monetary winnings; that's just their excuse. It may be that people do so for the sensory input, and corresponding chemicals their brains release. It would make an interesting (albeit unethical) study: design a casino game where it's impossible to win. Would people still get addicted? I suspect they would.
LordHeini 3y ago
Some time ago I watched a documentary about gambling addicts. They claimed they were playing because the game puts you in a kind of stupor which is like being high. Winning money did not matter to them as long as the high held on. It is a bit counter intuitive but winning money is not the point of gambling. If an addict wins money he will imedialty spend that money to gamble more. This app skips the winning and some degree spending, money part altogether. Which is smart if you want to exploit gambling addincts and avoid regulations.
- notfed 3y ago
  Every time I've played slots, I just lose repeatedly. I struggle to understand how this can give a high.
  - LordHeini 3y ago
    It is totaly weird indeed. Some People seem to get in the zone and get completely lost. Sometimes that happens to me while coding. But i can't do it for long and unlike gambling it pays. It is hard to get up from the machine and some even shit themselves. The big casinos often have emergency teams for the people who get heart attacks and die on their chairs in front of the slot machine. It is truly bizzare I never understood the appeal but some people are drawn to this and get absolutely zombiefied. Gambling addiction truly is one of the worst things that can happen to someone.
  - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
    I've only ever gambled once and don't see the appeal, but for some people they can enter a state of "flow". This is very satisfying.
  - majani 3y ago
    Same. Surely they should not let you lose 3 times in a row, that just takes a person out of it. But there are people, mostly the elderly, who get completely taken in by the sights and sounds of a slot machine
- buzzert 3y ago
dkarl 3y ago
"The company has said in previous court filings that only a fraction of the game's players actually spend money." I was recruited by a sports gambling company and went as far as interviewing with them. I really enjoyed the interview (interesting tech, really smart people) and I've placed a few bets along with friends before in the past without ill effect, so I did some quick checking about how gambling businesses make money. As far as I could tell, across different gambling businesses, the focus is on "whales" -- chronic gamblers who spend as much as they can or more on gambling. The public image of these "whales" is the immensely rich person who visits a casino a few weekends per year and casually loses a hundred million that they won't miss, but a lot of the "whales" are people like the ones in the article, middle class people who lose hundreds of thousands of dollars while desperately trying, and ultimately failing, to stop their addiction from ruining their lives. Online gambling makes it profitable to pursue smaller and smaller whales, because you aren't limited by the amount of space inside your casino, or the number of people who live near or can afford to visit your casino. Your targets are everybody where you can legally operate, and you're running A/B tests and other optimization technology to increase an addictive behavior. I.e., their business model is to stoke a ruinous addiction across every social and economic class in every jurisdiction they can legally operate in. Standard disclaimers: I'm not an expert, not an insider, not in the industry at all. Also, none of the information I learned was directly about the company I interviewed with. I'm just talking about my understanding of how gambling businesses work from what I could glean online. Anyway, I didn't take that job.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  Reminds me of most social media
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    Social media doesn't cause $100,000+ in direct losses like gambling does.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      It does cause serious lifelong mental illness, which often results on $100k+ in indirect losses. https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/study-social-media-use-linked-to-decline-mental-health https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/study-social-m... And they, including Mark, actively worked against doing something about it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/sacramento/news/zuckerberg-rejected-meta-proposals-to-improve-teen-mental-health-court-documents-allege/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/sacramento/...
deleted 3y ago
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bayofpigs 3y ago
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rr808 3y ago
Robinhood isn't much difference. I'm shocked that an investment app gamifies trading so much it obviously becomes gambling. Financial industry is otherwise so heavily regulated I'm surprised they get away with it.
- thebigspacefuck 3y ago
  How does it gamify trading?
billy99k 3y ago
How is this any different that starting a legal weed shop that also happens to sell to people that are addicted to it? I knew plenty of people when I was younger that would spend so much in weed every month that they couldn't make rent. If we are going to support legalizing drugs (which means the choice to destroy your life), we also need to support legalized gambling.
supermatt 3y ago
Is this really any different to other “free to play” games? Sure, it looks more like a casino style game, but it’s still micro transactions and some addicted “whales” spending insane amounts of money.
uconnectlol 3y ago
if you actually skip past the pathos and think about it, this is actually just bullshit. you can't make software illegal, that's like making authoring a book illegal. you're just wasting tax money of actual hard working, non-losers, who are a rapidly diminishing group. they will literally go do some other loser shit not even one second after the app is banned, ad infinitum. this is also an example of where regulation is not needed because you can (afaik) provably securely implement gambling on cryptocurrencies (*ducks*). eventually, people will only be using provably fair gambling software (although it's a bit slow to get there because crypto is still in the webshit phase and for instance they will sacrifice actual decentralization to use the web browser). a completely pointless result of cryptocurrencies but
charcircuit 3y ago
Most successful businesses will have drained people of millions. A business making money by people paying them is a fundemental part at how a business works.
madeofpalk 3y ago
It's disapointing to see zero criticism applied to Apple and Google. All of Apple's credability about needing to maintain control over iOS apps and App Store goes out the window once it's evident they make a fuck tonne of money selling casino games to children (and adults).
- notfed 3y ago
  I don't even know how Big Fish Games can be criticized here? These people are literally, knowingly giving their money, with no expectation of getting any back.
  - Jochim 3y ago
    Companies like Big Fish expend huge amounts of effort researching how to make their games more addictive. They are criticised because they have created something expressly designed to develop compulsion in as many people as possible. They aggressively tune their products to increase that compulsion and to prevent their victims from breaking it.
    - chii 3y ago
      To play the devil's advocate, how is it any different from a tv studio designing addictive tv shows? At the end of the day, there needs to be some level of personal responsibility.
      - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
        The main difference is that a TV studio isn't trying to get you to spend an unbounded amount of money. As a result it limits the total harm that can be inflicted, hence why TV addiction isn't considered as bad a problem as other forms.
      - Jochim 3y ago
        The other reply to this from zeroonetwothree hits the nail on the head. The major difference is in the capacity for serious harm. That's not to say that there shouldn't be more oversight of manipulation in other industries. > At the end of the day, there needs to be some level of personal responsibility. Why is it that the concept of personal responsibility is never applied to those employing the psychological manipulation tactics? My belief is that it's their personal responsibility to refrain from such behaviour.
RDaneel0livaw 3y ago
Was there a legal change recently that has allowed these predatory life/society destroying apps to suddenly explode everywhere all at once? Maybe state by state in the US? In Kentucky, I have very suddenly noticed these sports gambling and online fake casino apps are now EVERWHERE. Tv ads, physical billboards all over town, in-app ads on my phone, etc etc ...
orf 3y ago
These patterns are everywhere. I play COD mobile - in order to get the legendary skins for weapons you use a roulette wheel type interface. The cost of the rolls is decoupled from the actual cost through using coins, and the chances of getting the legendary skin vs other less valuable things is weighted so that you effectively always need the full 10 spins. The spin cost increases each time. The end result is that the skin you want costs upwards of £100.
diebeforei485 3y ago
Clearly the App Store isn't protecting users. They've long been allowing gambling-like mechanics to hook kids ("loot crates", etc). I simply don't understand why Apple can't choose the moral high ground here and say no gambling on the stores.
- skulk 3y ago
  Doesn't Apple take around 30% of all in app transactions? No one gets promoted for cutting out a revenue stream for morals, much less before enough loud voices are angry about it.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  Apple makes $10+ billion/year from this practice. So that's one reason.
akokanka 3y ago
Check top games on Google's play store. Almost all have spinning wheels left right and centre. It needs to be stopped. One thing is random in games and totally different turning children games into Casino's
brailsafe 3y ago
And this doesn't even account for Star Citizen or hearthstone
phs318u 3y ago
Definition of Gambling according to Gamblers Anonymous: "GAMBLING, for the compulsive gambler is defined as follows: Any betting or wagering, for self or others, whether for money or not, no matter how slight or insignificant, where the outcome is uncertain or depends upon chance or 'skill' constitutes gambling." http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/content/questions-answers-about-gamblers-anonymous http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/content/questions-answer...
andrewjl 3y ago
The article mentions that Big Fish Games was at one point owned by Churchill Downs and now belongs to Aristocrat Leisure. The former operates racetracks and an online oddsmaker while the latter literally manufactures gambling machines. > These games are not gambling because, among other reasons, they offer no opportunity for players to win money or anything of value. Our games are offered for free purely for entertainment, with an opportunity for customers to spend money within the game to enhance their gameplay experience.[1] Right, no connection to gambling whatsoever. [1]: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6896112-BF.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6896112-BF.html
Ekaros 3y ago
Why even bother with these when you could go to many casino web pages and just play in demo mode. With minimal if no deposit at all...
andrewjl 3y ago
The article is from 2020 but there is a headline out today in the WSJ about the owner of Big Fish Games: "Aristocrat Leisure Raises Dividend After FY Profit Jumps 53%"[1] [1]: https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/aristocrat-leisure-raises-dividend-after-fy-profit-jumps-53-751ab09d https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/aristocrat-leisure-rai...
Gambling 3y ago
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291 points by apsec112 3y ago

This, along with sports betting is the new smoking tax for dumb people. There will always be a substantial part of the population who can't think critically, save money, etc.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
I don’t ascribe becoming addicted to thinking critically. Anyone can fall into addiction. I also don’t ascribe the inability to save money to be by stupidity. A substantial minority of the population in general is disabled, and society really isn’t good at supporting disabled people with complex medical needs— work is rarely adaptable to regular medical treatments for example.
mplewis 3y ago
Addiction isn’t rational and it isn’t related to financial planning or critical thinking.
dymk 3y ago
Hope you never need opiates for an injury and have a family history of substance abuse, it's more common than you might think

namanyayg 3y ago

I'm not sure I follow, why is anyone playing these games at all? What's the benefit, or what's the social aspect? How do the clubs work to encourage more playing? I found the article to be a bit sparse on these details. Maybe there's another source?

afavour 3y ago
Surely you could ask all the same questions of physical casinos? The answer to most of the question is “addiction”.
- namanyayg 3y ago
  How is that the same? You can earn real money in a physical casino, here you cannot
  - b112 3y ago
    For most people, you can't earn anything at a casino. Almost no one comes out ahead, because no one leaves when ahead. They just keep playing, until all their money is gone. Sounds like these apps are more honest.
  - beremaki 3y ago
    Addiction is not related to the potential benefits of the habit. You can get addicted about anything depending on your personal dispositions. Simply said lot of "games" are disguised Skinner boxes, people with addictive personalities are very vulnerable to those.
  - dartos 3y ago
    Addicts don’t gamble in order to make money, that’s just what gets you in the door. Once you’re in that addiction cycle, you crave the dopamine rush and play just for the feeling of maybe winning back a big loss even when in reality a big win probably won’t even make you break even. It’s why people just sit in front of slot machines for hours on end.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
      Actually the dopamine rush isn’t in winning. Slot machines are all flashing lights, overwhelming colors, patterns, and matching patterns designed to provide dopamine rushes purely through stimulation. The point isn’t even in the potential of winning anymore, it’s getting lost in matching patterns and pretty lights where the world disappears for as long as possible. Slot machines are designed to maximize engagement and winning actually interrupts it with rewards (slot machine addicts have actually reported being upset when the slot machine pays out, because it ruins their trance like state!)
oldtownroad 3y ago
Addiction isn’t rational so the answer may be as unsatisfying as “people got addicted because they got addicted”. Many people addicted to real slot machines are addicted because you press a button and something happens, the fact that you can win real money is not much of a differentiator between these apps and real slot machines — because addicts in a casino aren’t walking away in profit either.
- wafriedemann 3y ago
  Justifying their behaviour with 'addiction' makes them completely unresponsible for their actions. If that's the case you'd have to declare them incompetent for doing business and assign them an agent.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Not every explanation is justification.
  - just_boost_it 3y ago
    That's a fairly unempathetic view. I don't know what it's like to be a gambler, but I do know that anyone who thinks they are completely rational is only fooling themselves. We are emotional animals with a tiny rational voice that can only shunt our emotions in a better direction.
    - aaomidi 3y ago
      To add to your point, these are companies with the ability to spend millions to get research done on the most efficient way to manipulate people. This isn’t just gambler vs some other person. This is one person against a resource pool worth millions of dollars. No individual in aggregate has a chance against that.
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      I think my number one pet peeve of this species is that people are so strongly inclined to assume that everyone’s experience is about the same as their experience. Empathy can be such an uphill battle.
enlightenedfool 3y ago
Playing apart, it’s surprising they spend 1000s of dollars.
1f60c 3y ago
From my experience playing a popular blackjack social casino game, they seem free to make you hit a blackjack at just the right time to keep the dopamine (and real money) flowing.
_fat_santa 3y ago
One of my friends showed me an "casino" app on his phone where they don't give you real money but you can earn (or buy) "premium currency" that can be redeemed for various rewards like a free dinner in Vegas or 20-50% off a room, which I would assume Big Fish Casino is doing something similar. It could be that or it could be the big A word that casino's hate (addiction).
jdietrich 3y ago
I can't give a short answer, but IMO the best long answer is the book Addiction by Design by Natasha Dow Schüll. https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/addiction-by-design https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691160887/ad...
cal85 3y ago
Occasional, unpredictable, variable rewards, with corresponding colourful splashes and satisfying noises, providing a temporary escape from uncomfortable feelings.
simonw 3y ago
I can guess. These are games where you earn points (in the form of tokens). Those points place you on a leaderboard within your club. Just like if you were playing any their game which gives you a score and let's you compare your score with other people. The catch here is that the games are all simulated Casino games - and one way to boost your score if you got "unlucky" is to spend real money on more fake tokens. The games are "fun" because they emulate 100+ years of casino development in terms of figuring out what mechanisms people enjoy the most.
- phatfish 3y ago
  Yup, it's like Euro Truck Simulator, but you simulate being a gambling addict. Oops...
andy800 3y ago
Why do people play Tetris or any other game? For most it is just a fun way to pass some time. However for others, it's an obsession that is prioritized over real-life -- jobs, finances, etc. The clubs appear to be like guilds or teams in online games, players collaborate for high scores and to maintain a ranking on a leaderboard. The problem is that once someone joins a team, they feel pressure to generate points to contribute to the team's success, which often requires in-app payments to obtain more coins to wager.
TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
Operates on the same mechanism as gambling, variable ratio reinforcement schedule - i.e. the player is rewarded after a random number of "responses"; similar to a slot machine.
matwood 3y ago
I got addicted to an MMO (DAoC) long ago. Luckily for me it didn't cost me much money other than the bot accounts I bought and maintained. But, it did cost me other things. I dropped out of grad school, stopped working out, stagnated at my job, and became completely obsessed with the game. I treated it as a second job. Looking back the why seems silly and embarrassing - I was part of a guild that needed my help. Eventually I had a long term relationship end over the game. The next day I gave all my accounts away and never played again. I still play single player games when I have time, but definitely no MMOs.
- metabagel 3y ago
  I’m sorry for how this impacted your life, but congratulations for doing what you needed to do.
  - matwood 3y ago
    Thank you. Everything worked out fine :)
wredue 3y ago
It’s the exact same reason why Destiny The Game subreddit consistently argued in favour of KRPG drop rates till it got to the point that not even the basement dwellers could get anything they wanted: They are addicted to “exclusivity”. This same type of thing impacts all video games with gambling aspects or drop rates. I’ve played Diablo 2 for decades and have never once dropped a rune higher ist, and the sub vehemently defends those drop rates. Many defended the Diablo 4 Uber rare rates. What’s the point in playing just for some strange exclusivity? Who knows. Gotta ask the people that defend the ever increasing annoying rarity of shit on the premise that they believe they alone play enough to end up in some sort of exclusive club of owners.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  People who play a lot want to feel that their "time investment" was "worth it". If things are too common that anyone playing 1 hour/day can get the same stuff as someone playing 16 hours/day then the latter group feel like they are "wasting their time". I would say, just play a different game that doesn't have this toxic reward system.

afavour 3y ago

I know it’s just the inevitability of capitalism but I’m just old enough to remember the early days of the internet (via a 9.6kbps modem if I recall!) and it was such a wonderful, positive force. Every now and then I’ll look back and reflect on how distant that memory feels these days. Locked down proprietary app stores with apps designed to do nothing other than part addicts from their money. Sigh.

mrits 3y ago
Do you remember the anarchist community that loaded up BBSs with bomb making and animal torture material?
- omgsharks 3y ago
  Definitely. And all of their 25 users. It was literally a non-issue even back then but titles like The Terrorist’s Handbook and The Anarchist’s Cookbook had a lot of shock value. Animal torture is such a fringe and infinitely small area that even if it’s deplorable it’s not, and never has been, prevalent in any meaningful way. Funny enough the first fallout we had among admins when we started The Pirate Bay was about a cat torture video that forced us to take a stance on freedom/anti-censorship vs decency and compassion. (The latter won, but not without losses in the team because they found it hypocritical that we “censored” uploads.)
  - mrits 3y ago
    Animal torture is highly prevalent in the world. It's even part of our mainstream supply chain from food, cosmetics, or medicine. Torture for the sole purpose of torture is what you are describing and not what I was referring to.
  - ok123456 3y ago
    I remember some high school kids dying during that period after trying to follow pipe bomb tphile recipes. There was bad press, but for 99% of people, using a computer to do this was so abstract that it didn't create any lasting moral panic.

sokoloff 3y ago

> But unlike the gambling market, apps like Jackpot Magic and Big Fish Casino are under little oversight to determine whether they are fair or whether their business practices are predatory. The apps are upfront that there is no possibility for a payout, right? It seems stupid to spend money other than for entertainment on these apps, but it doesn’t seem likely to me that the app is unfair.

dchung333 3y ago
It's a skinners box. People will put money in for the dopamine rush it gives. Think candy crush or vampire stories. They're paying for an experience. In a sense the people spending money are victims of predatory gaming mechanics. If you've payed for anything in any video game to enhance your experience like getting an upgraded weapon it's the same exact thing. Turns out there's an audience that's willing to pay this money. Or it's a money laundering scheme but who really knows.
dartos 3y ago
The issue is that there are some people who physically can’t help but pour all their money into these skinner boxes. The insidious and unfair bit comes in when you realize that these companies specifically engineer their apps to take advantage of people with that kind of addictive personality disorder. Check out the talk “Let’s go whaling” to really see what I mean. He opens the talk with “let’s set ethics aside for an hour”
- partitioned 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - beedeebeedee 3y ago
    Imagine saying that about someone with any other disability- your sentiment is beyond crass
    - tarheels100 3y ago

for1nner 3y ago

We knew this about casinos. That's why they were relegated to a little hellish desert town. What happened that we decided apps somehow solved the problems related to gambling?

HPsquared 3y ago
Out of sight, out of mind.
zeven7 3y ago
The odd difference here is people supposedly do this knowing they can’t win their money back (which is shocking to me). I assume the argument is they’re paying for entertainment.
- bluGill 3y ago
  You never got momoney back from pacman yet people spent a lot of money on video games.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  I can only imagine the boardroom meeting where this idea was first proposed. "So you're saying it's like a slot machine, except they can't win anything and just give us free money? Are you insane? What kind of idiot would sign up to that?" Two weeks and a beta test later: "I'm so sorry I doubted you."
LargeTomato 3y ago
For me, I want to have a little here and there. It's fun, I like putting $20 in with my friends and we get a little pool going. I don't understand why I can't gamble because someone else has no self control. My same argument applies to alcohol, marijuana, fast food, etc.

23B1 3y ago

Smartphones and candy crush will be our generation's cigarettes. FAANG = Big Tobacco.

Zambyte 3y ago
Slightly unrelated to the OP but: I think that in a more prefect world, the legality of parasocial internet use (which smartphones do a great job of enabling and encouraging) should be tied to the legality of cannabis use. Too young? Shouldn't be able to use it. In a public place? It's rude and inconsiderate to those around to start using your phone / smoking; there should be designated areas where it is allowed.
dymk 3y ago
FAANG isn't making candy crush, or any of these addicting mobile games for that matter
- 23B1 3y ago
  What a silly comment. McDonalds doesn't make poisonous coca-cola, they just distribute it.
  - dymk 3y ago
    You think cola is poison?
    - 23B1 3y ago
      You don't?
      - dymk 3y ago
        In the same way that a slice of cake is poison, sure.
sneak 3y ago
Tobacco kills 50% of its users. Smartphones and apps do not.

gjvc 3y ago

Ethics in programming right here.

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

It's social media, but instead of advertisers paying them, it's the users paying them. Same addictive tactics, same pointless entertainment.

1f60c 3y ago

(2020) But more to the point, these "social casino games" (as they're known in literature) should probably be outlawed.

namanyayg 3y ago

I was wondering where I had heard the name "Big Fish Games". I just realised that they created Virtual Villagers which was a huge part of my childhood, I loved that game. I also enjoyed Fish Tycoon and Diner Dash by them. Seems like they got sold to a casino operator? Unfortunate that this is what makes money.

lionkor 3y ago
They also published some Nancy Drew games, I believe, one of which im currently reverse engineering!
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  Pardon my tone, but what could possibly be of value to RCE in a mass-market mobile-gaming app?
  - isidor3 3y ago
    Maybe some personal enjoyment?
  - firtoz 3y ago
    I'm not OP, but, reverse engineer all things. You can learn how they are made, you can learn reverse engineering in general, you can make mods, hacks, cheats, spinoffs.
  - mplewis 3y ago
    They’re not mobile games. https://www.bigfishgames.com/us/en/games/1207/nancydrewdangerbyd/?pc&lang=en https://www.bigfishgames.com/us/en/games/1207/nancydrewdange...
  - lionkor 3y ago
    Theyre not mobile games, they are pretty old point and click adventure games, with lovely art and humor. The reverse engineering is interesting because they rolled their own engine and most of the game is written in Lua 5.1. I also personally find it interesting as the binaries and code in general is tiny, so its a good way to learn.

wafriedemann 3y ago

The money is obviously of better use in the hands of others. No harm done here.

dartos 3y ago
I’m guessing you’re joking, but some people who can’t help but become addicted to skinner boxes have dependants. Children, families, tenants even. Those people are harmed.
metabagel 3y ago
scammer credo
arrowsmith 3y ago
Easy to say when it's not your loved one.

Eumenes 3y ago

> After a long legal battle, 2 million players, including Shellz and her husband, will be eligible to get a small part of their losses back — about 20 percent for those who lost $10,000 to $100,000. This is ridiculous - are people incapable of free will anymore? I'm sick of "journalists" painting people as victims for gleefully engaging in reckless behavior. Remember the idiots who lost millions on Robinhood and tried to claim it was "too easy" to lose money via day trading? Or children "addicted" to loot boxes in video games? I know this is HN and the inevitable comment regarding pHd pSyChOlOgIsTs designing dark patterns into these apps so people have no agency over themselves. My guess is there's some ambulance chasing law firm sourcing these poor fools, they use the PR circus to generate buzz about how they're poor victims, then they broker back door deals with the companies to get some settlement vs the negative press. Idk who the negative press works on - there are actual victims in this world, and these people are NOT victims.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
Why do you have no curiosity when presented with a phenomenon that doesn’t make sense to you?
- Eumenes 3y ago
  what's the phenomenon? how dumb and gullible the average person is? > We lie in bed next to each other, we have two tablets, two phones and a computer and all these apps spinning Reel Rivals at the same time am i supposed to feel bad?
  - flappyeagle 3y ago
    How can you not feel bad reading that?
    - Eumenes 3y ago
      Mostly because its pathetic and in a way, its poetic justice. Smart enough to save six figures, most definitely didn't cry victimhood when they "won big", but dumb enough to think that setting up multiple devices could improve their odds. Seems like they're sore losers, not victims.

matt123456789 3y ago

"Suzie Kelly of Dallas previously told Reveal News how she spent about $400,000 on the game. She took out a home equity loan and used the money she inherited when her mother died to fund her habit." This is a symptom of problem gambling. The article makes it sound like this app is exploiting the same neurological reward pathways as regular gambling, and causing the same kinds of damage. The lack of monetary reward might prevent more people from trying this compared to other apps where winning money is a possibility, but exactly the same kind of people will get hooked on this version, and in the same way, and cause the same kind of damage as problem gambling for money.

rjh29 3y ago
Surely it's even worse, because it's available 24/7 wherever you are, instead of being somewhere you have to physically visit.
- maneesh 3y ago
  Plenty of online casinos exist as well.
  - preciousoo 3y ago
    Why the deflection? Both are a problem, no? One just slips past the “oh gambling is bad for you” mental defense
    - sneak 3y ago
      Problem for whom? We also have luxury stores selling expensive designer goods that people waste millions on. Why do we care so much about this specific form of people wasting their money? What’s wrong with letting people go broke the way they choose?
      - cinntaile 3y ago
        I don't think you fully understand the issue if you compare this to people buying expensive designer goods.

xivzgrev 3y ago

What’s interesting is they offer no chance to make money. Instead once you start paying they give you access to special clubs where you compete against each other, have conversations, etc. but of course if you stop paying you lose access to all of these.

xDetoursx 3y ago
So if you win, you can't cash out?
- mplewis 3y ago
  These games provide no cash reward. This is clearly stated in the article.
tarheels100 3y ago
That's key because it shows how money isn't the only reward that can encourage unhealthy gambling behavior. It sounds like the victims express feeling of a sunk cost, knowing that if they don't maintain their status with additional purchases, all the previous money spent will have been wasted. If it took them $10k to get there, why throw it all away (and disappoint their "club") if you can keep it rolling for another $100?

dustingetz 3y ago

my lifelong friend who developed schizophrenia as an adult (tick bite while jogging -> lymes disease -> schizophrenia, yes that's a thing) is going through bankruptcy due to these apps. IIUC what happened is after years of use she hit a jackpot (which they allow or cause to happen every now and then), cashed out a big win which generated an IRS Form W-2G, deposited somewhere else across the fiscal year boundary, immediately lost it but now owes a pile of tax. Her net worth is now less than 0; she is currently living in a state funded halfway house after her latest stint in rehab -- having otherwise now reached the point of homelessness for the first time. Historically she has had the apps block her (over a decade of this addiction) but there are always new apps and they obviously target her with advertising. If I have it wrong it's because it's impossible to extract coherent information from a schizophrenic. The only reason to believe this is even real is, how does a schizophrenic know what is a Form W-2G?

peter_l_downs 3y ago
The apps discussed in the article do not allow cashing out. Sorry to hear about your friend’s difficulties.
danielfoster 3y ago
This is very sad to hear— I am sorry. I also wonder why only older people are getting hooked on these games. Perhaps it is due to changes in the brain? These companies seem to target the weakest.
nyolfen 3y ago
> (tick bite while jogging -> lymes disease -> schizophrenia, yes that's a thing) women with schizophrenia actually tend to develop symptoms in their 20s, much later than men; lymes disease is real but also often a fixation for the mentally ill and hypochondriacs since the symptoms are so vague and varied, so it is likely that the bite is irrelevant and she fixated on it as her symptoms were developing for genetic (or whatever) reasons
- dustingetz 3y ago
  thanks – I didn't know that. She is 39 and was bit in her late 20s, showed early schizophrenia (wrongfully diagnosed as psychosis) in early 30s. So could be.

xDetoursx 3y ago

It's funny because in the mid 90s when online gambling was illegal (U.S.), I joined and played a service located in the Caribbean so I could place sports bets. I won a couple of times and they mailed me an actual check. I lost way more than I won of money I didn't really have, but now that online gambling is legal and I have more disposable cash, there's zero interest in these

agumonkey 3y ago

What if the millions of hours drained on internet were spent in nature or doing stuff in your city ?

thebigspacefuck 3y ago
Nature and cities would be filled with people
- asynchronous 3y ago
  Cue the times during covid when the national parks were overcrowded.

liendolucas 3y ago

Not long ago I've read a very interesting and sad article where it was exposed that teenagers who haven't yet finished high school in Argentina are becoming addicted gamblers on illegal websites. We are talking about kids between 13 and 17 years old (in some cases younger ones) gambling on roulette, sports, anything. Apparently this was intensified during the pandemic. In one case a 14 old asked his grandmother a huge amount of money to keep gambling. What is worse is that on these platforms kids can get loans to keep playing, and one way or another they will get their money back. Here's the link to the article (in spanish): https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/jugamos-una-fichita-en-el-recreo-una-epidemia-de-apuestas-online-se-desato-entre-adolescentes-nid03112023/#/ https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/jugamos-una-fichita-en-...

janejeon 3y ago

Oh wow, just from the title I assumed it was talking about gachas (FGO/Genshin/etc), but no, the "apps" the article is talking about seem to be several orders of magnitudes worse ($100k+) than even gachas (where even fully whaling out on a banner costs you ~$2.5k).

skippyboxedhero 3y ago
Gachas are, I think, basically identical. They appeal to a different demo using different processes but a lot of the people who work on games with monetization are using stuff that was learned in the gambling industry (i.e. how to maximize yields, how to treat whales, etc.). Gachas are as problematic as casinos imo.
- janejeon 3y ago
  > Gachas are, I think, basically identical Which is why I thought the title was about gachas. What I'm trying to point out here is that are extra digits in the amount of money people are losing. This is utterly insane and I'm having a hard time even understanding that number.

theGnuMe 3y ago

Roblox is similar and in some sense even worse cause the kids are younger. There needs to be some curation or something done. Also apple needs to develop better parental controls and we need MDM services that can restrict these apps for people with addictions.

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Apreche 3y ago

When someone wants to setup a casino that awards players with real money for winning, it's heavily regulated. Sure, they're allowed to set extremely favorable odds for the house, so it's still a scam. But they actually have to publish those odds and abide by them. And lucky players do actually come out ahead. Slot machines do occasionally pay out jackpots. The most important regulation, IMHO, is we do not allow minors to participate in this activity. This regulation doesn't seem very controversial. But what if someone sets up a casino where there is no chance of a cash payout? No matter what, the player loses 100% of the money they put in. For some reason we do not regulate this kind of casino at all! It's totally wild. This kind of casino should be the MOST regulated, or banned entirely. Worst of all, we let children participate! Slot machines that use worthless virtual currency, award only virtual currency, but let you buy virtual currency with real currency? Playing one of those is worse than playing a real slot machine, or even playing a rigged real slot machine! At least both of those have some non-zero chance of paying out real money. Lootboxes in video games? That's gambling with a 0% payout. All you get are worthless JPGs. And we let children participate! Crane games at the arcade? Those are just vending machines with programmed odds. They are gambling! We let children play them. Baseball, Pokemon, or Magic cards? Other collectibles that come in blind boxes or sealed packs? These are gambling! Sure, some will argue that these are different because no matter what you are getting some minimum prize. A pack of Pokemon cards will always contain 10 cards no matter what. Well, what if I make a $5 slot machine that at minimum always pays out 50 cents no matter what you spin? How is that different from a $4.50 slot machine that has the potential to pay out $0? Changing the odds and payouts doesn't make it not gambling. IMHO, all of these activities should be completely banned for children. No games of chance whatsoever if they cost real money per-play. As for adults, consenting and informed adults can throw away their money if they want. But all of these activities should be heavily regulated. And the casinos that don't pay out a cent should be MORE heavily regulated than the normal ones.

sokoloff 3y ago
A lot of entertainment falls into this category though. A $15 movie ticket has a 100% to consume ~2 hours of your life and pay you nothing. A $5 order of fries will pay you about $0.50 worth of potatoes. Go to a ballgame and it’s just as bad as the movies; they’ll charge you for expensive food and drink inside and your favorite team might not even win. Trying to draw a bright, defining line between watching a movie and buying a video game and playing an arcade game or Skeeball seems practically impossible. We don’t want to force everyone to be stuck at home playing “blow the ball of yarn to the opponent’s side of the table”.

H8crilA 3y ago

One thing that I never understood is the idea that "gambling is fun". In the culture that I'm from gambling is considered something left for the "lower class". It's a bit similar to acting up while heavily drunk, not exactly something to be proud of. The first few times that I heard something to the tune of "Vegas, baby!" I honestly thought the person was being funny by ridiculing themselves slightly.

sokoloff 3y ago
People find uncertainty and sudden twists engaging. That’s broadly true in humor, books, movies, and gambling. I find gambling on games where the house has a large edge generally uninteresting, but I’ll play craps with friends in Vegas. Games where player skill has an element and games like poker against other players are quite a bit more interesting.
amalcon 3y ago
It's essentially a way of hacking your brain to care about something that you otherwise wouldn't. I wouldn't suggest anyone gamble casino-style, because a relative minority has a real pathology there. Still, I've been known to make non-monetary bets on the outcome of sporting events (e.g. "loser cleans up"). It gets you invested in the outcome, which does make it more enjoyable.
crazygringo 3y ago
Honest question: have you ever tried it? Ever played blackjack at a casino? I've only done it a handful of times, but it's a gigantic exciting roller coaster ride of emotions as you win and lose real amounts of money, whether they're in tens or hundreds of dollars or whatever scale you're at. It's way more exciting than the thrills from a superhero movie in the cinema because it's real life, real money. It's more exciting than sports because it's your win, your money. When you're winning, you can't believe how much fun it is. All your life you were told an honest day's pay for an honest day's work, and now you feel like you've found a magic shortcut! And if you lose, well... next time. You're sure you'll make up for it and then some. It can honestly be hard to imagine until you've tried it. I was similarly confused until I experienced it. But it really taps into something deep in the primate brain, about hopes and dreams fulfilled, about getting lucky and rich, about being special. There's a good reason I've only ever gone a handful of times, and limited myself to a small amount of money. Because it's also scarily easy to see how you could get addicted to that feeling.

BananaaRepublik 3y ago

So what is the takeaway from this? It isn't even the expectation of winning money that keeps people in casinos, just the dopamine hit from a slot machine itself? They would've played with or without reward the whole time?

amalcon 3y ago
I think it's more that the reward doesn't need to be valuable to the legal system in order to be valuable to the player. It's relatively easy to convince a minority of people to care about a reward that the legal system doesn't consider valuable. This feels very much like gambling for the player, while simultaneously skirting gambling laws and improving the house edge to 100%. Most people say they don't care about that number at the top right on HN, but somehow there is still an awful lot of complaining about voting patterns. HN is almost entirely unlike a casino, but karma does demonstrate the phenomenon (of getting people to care about a legally meaningless reward).

flappyeagle 3y ago

There’s a reasonable regulation for these things — limit $/hour extracted per player All digital entertainment period outside of live events Whatever it costs to go to a cinema and see a 2hr movie. That’s the limit.

WXLCKNO 3y ago
They'll open up a chain of premium cinemas as a benchmark.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
The cynic in me suspects in-app-purchase was a mistake from the get-go. Outlaw all in-app purchase?

rubing 3y ago

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liendolucas 3y ago

Quote from: https://www.bigfishgames.com/play/bigfishcasino/signup https://www.bigfishgames.com/play/bigfishcasino/signup > "You must be 18+ to access Big Fish Casino/Jackpot Magic Slots. This game does not offer gambling or an opportunity to win real money or prizes. Practice or success at social gaming does not imply future success at gambling." So, you're able to pour them money and no way to get it back. What exactly is the money for then? Why this does not qualify as a scam? Just because of the disclaimer?

seanalltogether 3y ago
It's no different then any other online game like clash of clans or pokemon go or even FIFA. You spend money to be allowed to spin the wheel more, the more you spin the better your chance at winning some in game shiny trophy to show off to others competing for the same shiny trophy. The addiction comes purely from the fact that thousands or millions of other people can see your progress and are competing against you to earn better.
- liendolucas 3y ago
  I see, but they shouldn't be allowed to use the word "casino" then. As far as I know, a casino (virtual or real) is a place where you gamble and have a chance (small but real) to get your money back. So basically people playing through this app are believing that effectively can win money when is not true.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    The first definition of "casino" is a place for social amusement, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/casino https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/casino, and there are non gambling casinos still out there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_Casino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_Casino I don't think many people playing these games are fooled into somehow thinking they'll win their money back. Certainly the 21 big spenders in the article knew they wouldn't.

doctorM 3y ago

Headline reminds me of the recent crypto booms...

crazygringo 3y ago

From the headline, I thought these were regular gambling apps where you win/lose money. But no -- this is something I'd never heard of. These are apps where you can't withdraw winnings. People are spending $100,000's with zero potential reward. I'm... baffled. Although now I guess I'm forced to ask myself, how is this any different from other free-to-play games like virtual multiplayer golf or Mario Kart or whatever that some people have spent $10,000's for equipment/upgrades/cosmetics/etc., that similarly don't equate to anything in the real world.

iandanforth 3y ago
I am reminded of this Penny Arcade comic: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/25/an-artifact-of-great-power https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/25/an-artifact-of... "It's so pure I think I'm going to cry."
treme 3y ago
it's different because the mechanics are carbon copy of other casino games with tighter reinforcement/addiction potential then other 'regular' games that have more space/process in game experience loop
pawelduda 3y ago
Cosmetic is cosmetic, someone likes the way it looks, pays for it, receives the cosmetic - IMO no different from buying any vanity item in real world. Paid upgrades/equipment/unlocks that give advantage to a player in a otherwise free to play game is a shitty spending-fest design that I avoid getting into, maybe unless the spending ceiling is very low. Still, I wouldn't see it as a gambling because there is no randomness involved. The moment game devs add loot boxes though - well, IMO this shit should be banned. Especially when it's stupid obvious that there is no randomness behind the scenes.
mugwumprk 3y ago
I think this touches on an idea that isn't necessarily intuitive. People may not always gamble for the monetary winnings; that's just their excuse. It may be that people do so for the sensory input, and corresponding chemicals their brains release. It would make an interesting (albeit unethical) study: design a casino game where it's impossible to win. Would people still get addicted? I suspect they would.

LordHeini 3y ago

Some time ago I watched a documentary about gambling addicts. They claimed they were playing because the game puts you in a kind of stupor which is like being high. Winning money did not matter to them as long as the high held on. It is a bit counter intuitive but winning money is not the point of gambling. If an addict wins money he will imedialty spend that money to gamble more. This app skips the winning and some degree spending, money part altogether. Which is smart if you want to exploit gambling addincts and avoid regulations.

notfed 3y ago
Every time I've played slots, I just lose repeatedly. I struggle to understand how this can give a high.
- LordHeini 3y ago
  It is totaly weird indeed. Some People seem to get in the zone and get completely lost. Sometimes that happens to me while coding. But i can't do it for long and unlike gambling it pays. It is hard to get up from the machine and some even shit themselves. The big casinos often have emergency teams for the people who get heart attacks and die on their chairs in front of the slot machine. It is truly bizzare I never understood the appeal but some people are drawn to this and get absolutely zombiefied. Gambling addiction truly is one of the worst things that can happen to someone.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  I've only ever gambled once and don't see the appeal, but for some people they can enter a state of "flow". This is very satisfying.
- majani 3y ago
  Same. Surely they should not let you lose 3 times in a row, that just takes a person out of it. But there are people, mostly the elderly, who get completely taken in by the sights and sounds of a slot machine
buzzert 3y ago

dkarl 3y ago

"The company has said in previous court filings that only a fraction of the game's players actually spend money." I was recruited by a sports gambling company and went as far as interviewing with them. I really enjoyed the interview (interesting tech, really smart people) and I've placed a few bets along with friends before in the past without ill effect, so I did some quick checking about how gambling businesses make money. As far as I could tell, across different gambling businesses, the focus is on "whales" -- chronic gamblers who spend as much as they can or more on gambling. The public image of these "whales" is the immensely rich person who visits a casino a few weekends per year and casually loses a hundred million that they won't miss, but a lot of the "whales" are people like the ones in the article, middle class people who lose hundreds of thousands of dollars while desperately trying, and ultimately failing, to stop their addiction from ruining their lives. Online gambling makes it profitable to pursue smaller and smaller whales, because you aren't limited by the amount of space inside your casino, or the number of people who live near or can afford to visit your casino. Your targets are everybody where you can legally operate, and you're running A/B tests and other optimization technology to increase an addictive behavior. I.e., their business model is to stoke a ruinous addiction across every social and economic class in every jurisdiction they can legally operate in. Standard disclaimers: I'm not an expert, not an insider, not in the industry at all. Also, none of the information I learned was directly about the company I interviewed with. I'm just talking about my understanding of how gambling businesses work from what I could glean online. Anyway, I didn't take that job.

iancmceachern 3y ago
Reminds me of most social media
- dragontamer 3y ago
  Social media doesn't cause $100,000+ in direct losses like gambling does.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    It does cause serious lifelong mental illness, which often results on $100k+ in indirect losses. https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/study-social-media-use-linked-to-decline-mental-health https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/study-social-m... And they, including Mark, actively worked against doing something about it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/sacramento/news/zuckerberg-rejected-meta-proposals-to-improve-teen-mental-health-court-documents-allege/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/sacramento/...

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bayofpigs 3y ago

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rr808 3y ago

Robinhood isn't much difference. I'm shocked that an investment app gamifies trading so much it obviously becomes gambling. Financial industry is otherwise so heavily regulated I'm surprised they get away with it.

thebigspacefuck 3y ago
How does it gamify trading?

billy99k 3y ago

How is this any different that starting a legal weed shop that also happens to sell to people that are addicted to it? I knew plenty of people when I was younger that would spend so much in weed every month that they couldn't make rent. If we are going to support legalizing drugs (which means the choice to destroy your life), we also need to support legalized gambling.

supermatt 3y ago

Is this really any different to other “free to play” games? Sure, it looks more like a casino style game, but it’s still micro transactions and some addicted “whales” spending insane amounts of money.

uconnectlol 3y ago

if you actually skip past the pathos and think about it, this is actually just bullshit. you can't make software illegal, that's like making authoring a book illegal. you're just wasting tax money of actual hard working, non-losers, who are a rapidly diminishing group. they will literally go do some other loser shit not even one second after the app is banned, ad infinitum. this is also an example of where regulation is not needed because you can (afaik) provably securely implement gambling on cryptocurrencies (*ducks*). eventually, people will only be using provably fair gambling software (although it's a bit slow to get there because crypto is still in the webshit phase and for instance they will sacrifice actual decentralization to use the web browser). a completely pointless result of cryptocurrencies but

charcircuit 3y ago

Most successful businesses will have drained people of millions. A business making money by people paying them is a fundemental part at how a business works.

madeofpalk 3y ago

It's disapointing to see zero criticism applied to Apple and Google. All of Apple's credability about needing to maintain control over iOS apps and App Store goes out the window once it's evident they make a fuck tonne of money selling casino games to children (and adults).

notfed 3y ago
I don't even know how Big Fish Games can be criticized here? These people are literally, knowingly giving their money, with no expectation of getting any back.
- Jochim 3y ago
  Companies like Big Fish expend huge amounts of effort researching how to make their games more addictive. They are criticised because they have created something expressly designed to develop compulsion in as many people as possible. They aggressively tune their products to increase that compulsion and to prevent their victims from breaking it.
  - chii 3y ago
    To play the devil's advocate, how is it any different from a tv studio designing addictive tv shows? At the end of the day, there needs to be some level of personal responsibility.
    - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
      The main difference is that a TV studio isn't trying to get you to spend an unbounded amount of money. As a result it limits the total harm that can be inflicted, hence why TV addiction isn't considered as bad a problem as other forms.
    - Jochim 3y ago
      The other reply to this from zeroonetwothree hits the nail on the head. The major difference is in the capacity for serious harm. That's not to say that there shouldn't be more oversight of manipulation in other industries. > At the end of the day, there needs to be some level of personal responsibility. Why is it that the concept of personal responsibility is never applied to those employing the psychological manipulation tactics? My belief is that it's their personal responsibility to refrain from such behaviour.

RDaneel0livaw 3y ago

Was there a legal change recently that has allowed these predatory life/society destroying apps to suddenly explode everywhere all at once? Maybe state by state in the US? In Kentucky, I have very suddenly noticed these sports gambling and online fake casino apps are now EVERWHERE. Tv ads, physical billboards all over town, in-app ads on my phone, etc etc ...

orf 3y ago

These patterns are everywhere. I play COD mobile - in order to get the legendary skins for weapons you use a roulette wheel type interface. The cost of the rolls is decoupled from the actual cost through using coins, and the chances of getting the legendary skin vs other less valuable things is weighted so that you effectively always need the full 10 spins. The spin cost increases each time. The end result is that the skin you want costs upwards of £100.

diebeforei485 3y ago

Clearly the App Store isn't protecting users. They've long been allowing gambling-like mechanics to hook kids ("loot crates", etc). I simply don't understand why Apple can't choose the moral high ground here and say no gambling on the stores.

skulk 3y ago
Doesn't Apple take around 30% of all in app transactions? No one gets promoted for cutting out a revenue stream for morals, much less before enough loud voices are angry about it.
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
Apple makes $10+ billion/year from this practice. So that's one reason.

akokanka 3y ago

Check top games on Google's play store. Almost all have spinning wheels left right and centre. It needs to be stopped. One thing is random in games and totally different turning children games into Casino's

brailsafe 3y ago

And this doesn't even account for Star Citizen or hearthstone

phs318u 3y ago

Definition of Gambling according to Gamblers Anonymous: "GAMBLING, for the compulsive gambler is defined as follows: Any betting or wagering, for self or others, whether for money or not, no matter how slight or insignificant, where the outcome is uncertain or depends upon chance or 'skill' constitutes gambling." http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/content/questions-answers-about-gamblers-anonymous http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/content/questions-answer...

andrewjl 3y ago

The article mentions that Big Fish Games was at one point owned by Churchill Downs and now belongs to Aristocrat Leisure. The former operates racetracks and an online oddsmaker while the latter literally manufactures gambling machines. > These games are not gambling because, among other reasons, they offer no opportunity for players to win money or anything of value. Our games are offered for free purely for entertainment, with an opportunity for customers to spend money within the game to enhance their gameplay experience.[1] Right, no connection to gambling whatsoever. [1]: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6896112-BF.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6896112-BF.html

Ekaros 3y ago

Why even bother with these when you could go to many casino web pages and just play in demo mode. With minimal if no deposit at all...

andrewjl 3y ago

The article is from 2020 but there is a headline out today in the WSJ about the owner of Big Fish Games: "Aristocrat Leisure Raises Dividend After FY Profit Jumps 53%"[1] [1]: https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/aristocrat-leisure-raises-dividend-after-fy-profit-jumps-53-751ab09d https://www.wsj.com/business/earnings/aristocrat-leisure-rai...

Gambling 3y ago

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