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Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug

• capableweb 3y ago
  > Effective altruism is a philosophical and social movement that advocates "using evidence and reason to figure out how to benefit others as much as possible, and taking action on that basis I'm not sure how anyone could argue that what SBF was doing fits it any way with that. He's just been found guilty of fraud on multiple counts, so clearly the whole "Effective altruism" was just a image he was trying to present, while acting completely against it in private.
  • px43 3y ago
    It's often used as an excuse justifying short term greed and deception for the sake of theoretical long term benefits.
  • Sebb767 3y ago
    > I'm not sure how anyone could argue that what SBF was doing fits it any way with that. That's pretty easy, actually. He seems to see himself as some kind of Robin Hood-esque figure, taking money from the rich and distributing it to the poor (or, more specifically, distributing the money of the rich to the places where its most effective). The argument is about whether EA naturally leads to this "the ends superseed the means"-type of actions, which is what the article argues.
    • tw04 3y ago
      How is he defining "rich" - because AFAIK his algorithm didn't just take money from the whales to give to Alameda - and when things are settled, it's almost assuredly the whales that will get paid out first. So he's almost assuredly taking from the middle-class-at-best to give to his own personal pet projects.
      • Sebb767 3y ago
        > So he's almost assuredly taking from the middle-class-at-best to give to his own personal pet projects. He's still (for the largest part) taking investment money from the top 1% or at least top 10% of the world and is (in his opinion) putting it to work saving actual lives. I don't think it's that hard to see how he could justify his actions to himself. > and when things are settled, it's almost assuredly the whales that will get paid out first. This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm pretty sure that "how is the remaining money re-distributed once my company implodes" didn't make it into his calculations. Also, where the remaining funds go is pretty irrelevant to the calculation anyway, as it's not going to be funneled towards EA causes.
    • namdnay 3y ago
      If I remember the stories correctly, Robin hood lived in the forest with his merry men. Not in a palace in the bahamas :)
      • username332211 3y ago
        I struggle to think of the head of every political regime in the last century who based his government on stealing money from the rich and giving it to the poor, who didn't end up with a palace. Well, apart from the ones that got killed in military coups and such. And I doubt the idea that they were all liars that never believed in what they preached would withstand scrutiny. Suppose, your ethics are unworkable or irrational and you are unwilling to question them. If you think about it, by necessity, you must become more amoral as time goes by. At the very least the luxury of a palace probably helps silence one's moral instincts.
      • SamFold 3y ago
        Also, in the original stories, Robin actually was more like rob from the Church and give to the gentry. He was very friendly with the "right sort" of noblemen, he just really didn't like rich priests from the church. So we (in our modern age) have kind of perverted the idea of Robin Hood to fit our times but he never really was some kind of hero for the poor. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Gest_of_Robyn_Hode#Summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Gest_of_Robyn_Hode#Summary
    • btown 3y ago
      I'm not even sure if he saw himself as redistributing money vs. creating value from scratch, from the productivity increases that cryptocurrency would usher in when it became mainstream - and if he was the one to not "re-distribute," but simply distribute, some portion of those newfound gains, why, he would be the best possible steward because of his EA ideals! But, of course, what he didn't do was get the consent of his depositors to have their deposits rerouted and gambled with in the way that he did. Even if he had been right, if he had been able to ride the wave and cryptocurrency became everything he thought it could be - his actions were legally found to be fraudulent. In terms of a broader pattern with regards to consent and power dynamics, there's another inescapable data point of the EA movement's problems with internally handling sexual harassment allegations - I won't link to the time.com article on the EA movement, as it horrifyingly orientalizes and conflates polyamory with harassment, but assuming that the article's quotes from primary sources are accurate, it suggests a culture of protection for those who would abuse their power. I think that the EA community needs to grapple with the notion that just because one believes a certain pathway to be optimal, it does not absolve them of the need to gather explicit consent, given freely, with information discrepancies and power dynamics taken into account, from those who would be impacted. Optimization under constraints can still be optimization, and people's freedom to choose the extent to which they participate is the most important constraint of all.
      • landemva 3y ago
        Sam wasn't really a crypto guy. He knew some things about finance and trading, and set up a prop shop offshore.
      • morelisp 3y ago
        > it horrifyingly orientalizes and conflates polyamory with harassment I mean, Caroline Ellison herself is the one who said her relationship goals (which was to a large degree coterminous with company structure) was "best characterized as something like 'imperial Chinese harem'" no? It's not Time "orientalizing", it's one particular fucked up polycule. Which also happened to be one of the highest visibility ones in "the movement" (whether you take that as EA, crypto, Rationalism, Bay Area rich kid libertinism, whatever). Polyamory takes on a distinctly awful flavor when imported into EA (and before that Rationalist, which I would assume is where it reached EA from) communities. I would assume abuse and codependence before healthy relationships in these cases, because frankly I see 99% of this movement is at best emotionally immature.
    • FireBeyond 3y ago
      > He seems to see himself as some kind of Robin Hood-esque figure, taking money from the rich and distributing it to the poor Well, and to himself. At one point, didn't he own three private jets?
    • panarky 3y ago
      > taking money from the rich and distributing it to the poor There is zero evidence that this was his intent. There is a lot of evidence that he intended to maximize trading profits and use those profits to help people. The fact that he failed does not mean that he intended to steal from the rich.
      • deleted 3y ago
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      • letmeinhere 3y ago
        > There is zero evidence that [stealing] was his intent. The federal jury seems to have disagreed, finding him guilty on all charges, all of which require intent. As do his co-conspirators who testified to their fraud. This is such a bizarre take; this was one of the most lopsided financial prosecutions of all time and you're out here saying it had no foundation in fact at all?
        • anamexis 3y ago
          Your replacement in brackets is completely different than what the parent said. “And distributing it to the poor” was a key part of what they were responding to.
          • letmeinhere 3y ago
            The last sentence is literally "The fact that he failed does not mean that he intended to steal from the rich". The commenter was very clearly disputing SBF's _intent_ to steal. _You_ may doubt his good intentions for that theft (quite reasonably), but that's not the point that we are debating.
            • letmeinhere 3y ago
              Not only did panarky clearly dispute intent to steal, they specifically said that there's a lot of evidence of intent to help people: "There is a lot of evidence that he intended to maximize trading profits and use those profits to help people." Juxtaposed with zero evidence of intent to steal. I'm sorry, but I believe you have misread the thread completely.
    • em-bee 3y ago
      the problem seems twofold. on the one hand there is a seemingly objective definition of what Effective Altruism is supposed to be. that definition is one that i would like to subscribe to as well. on the other hand it appears that the idea of EA was popularized by someone whose actions didn't actually fit the definition which discredits the whole movement. that's the first problem. the second problem is that we tend to redefine what things are based on the actions of those that promote them. it's the same thing that happens with religions. a lot of people now and in the past did things in the name of those religions that were a discredit to them. the difficulty is to keep these things apart. the consequence for me is that i can not associate myself with things like EA or blockchain development, because in the eye of the public now these do more harm than good. and for the same reason many not only leave their particular religion but disassociate themselves from the concept of religion itself.
      • nativeit 3y ago
        As near as I can tell, “Effective Altruism” is just the latest lame label for what is essentially “trickle down economics”, where some overly entitled individuals condescendingly try to justify some notion that they know how to spend money better than the plebs, so they must clearly be the obvious beneficiaries of any/all proceeds of any given transaction. It isn’t new, and it certainly isn’t helpful. It’s cynical and needs to be called what it is—a framework for extending and perpetuating income inequality while making those who benefit the most feel good about themselves.
        • em-bee 3y ago
          i don't see the connection. trickle down economics is about reducing taxes for high earners so that they can spend the money on things that will eventually benefit lower earners. that has nothing to do with effective altruism as far as i can tell. at best i can see that high earners claim effective altruism for themselves, and are discrediting it with their actions, just like i said. if you talk to people promoting effective altruism on the ground (which i had the opportunity to do recently) then you get a different picture.
  • CobrastanJorji 3y ago
    This leads into a whole "theory vs practice" argument that shows up whenever people start talking about communism. If anybody doing Effective Altruism in the real world fails, we are told that they were not doing EA correctly, and it's simply unfortunate that nobody's done it correctly yet. Thus the movement itself can never be discredited by mere experimental evidence.
  • _yb2s 3y ago
    His actions made perfect sense from his utilitarian Effective Altruist worldview. He was stealing from rich people, and giving the money to what he saw as "worthy causes." He was pretty open even before the collapse about how he decided to get as rich as possible, as fast as possible, at all costs, as long as (in his own moral calculus) the net benefits were positive. EAs are arguably a 'cult' obsessed with AI risk, which they mostly believe will end the world in the next few years. So to them, that pretty much justifies anything that could help mitigate that risk. He would see it as immoral not to become a criminal in order to fund AI risk research. Personally, I think these AI risk concerns are legitimate, but I don't agree with these methods.
    • deleted 3y ago
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    • jaidhyani 3y ago
      > His actions made perfect sense from his utilitarian Effective Altruist worldview. They don't. Everyone in EA (AFAICT) has been pretty clear about this. Lying and undermining trust and institutions does tremendous lasting harm. I am also tired of "people are very concerned about X and think that it's important, so they're basically a cult".
      • _yb2s 3y ago
        I've been involved (or at least following) the rationalist and EA communities since the beginning. I call it a cult somewhat tongue in cheek, but it certainly has a lot more cult-like aspects beyond just "pretty concerned about AI risk." I mean, they have a charismatic leader whose unusual ideas about everything from AI risk to sexuality are more or less carbon copied, and practiced in group houses, etc. in some pretty creepy ways. Literally anyone from the outside would easily be convinced they were pretty much your standard apocalyptic sex cult, just from accurately describing it. I don't really care if people on EA forums don't all agree with SBF, but his type of thinking is standard if you use utilitarianism to make decisions in the real world, and it leads to some pretty horrific stuff. Consequentialism / utilitarianism are widely accepted in EA, and if you take that to the extreme, it can justify things like this.
  • dheera 3y ago
    Is it just me or do a whole lot of EA people just love to keep talking but never do anything actually altruistic? I mean I get the idea of trying to optimize the value of charitable donations. But donating something is infinitely better than chatting all day and donating nothing. Even on a small scale, the number of times I've seen non-EA people do something nice is way, way more than the number of times I've seen an EA person come out of their "circle" and do something nice.
    • mplewis 3y ago
      This is how EA works. It wouldn’t be maximally effective to donate the money now, would it? Compounding interest says you should hoard it until your dying day and only then invest in a charitable cause.
      • verteu 3y ago
        No, you'd need to account for several things (curing someone of malaria has compounding returns, high-impact opportunities may dry up, etc). There's substantial discussion: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/7uJcBNZhinomKtH9p/giving-now-vs-later-a-summary https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/7uJcBNZhinomKtH9p/... I do agree that utilitarianism provides too much room for mental gymnastics which bad actors can use to feign benevolence.
      • jstarfish 3y ago
        This is the smartest thing for the 99% though. While we're alive, we need the money now. Donate your estate once you're dead. It has a side benefit of discouraging accelerated inheritance schemes.
        • dheera 3y ago
          What if you have children? You could say they "need the money now" more than you do, and never donate. You could even write a recursive will that defines N=5, and requires your daughter or son, as a condition of inheriting the money, (a) never donate it during their lifetime and (b) compound it for a lifetime in S&P500 (c) write their own will with the exact same text with the only change being N = N-1 (d) donation is only allowed if you are N=0, and only under agreeing to fulfill (a), (b), and (c), do you even get to have the money.
  • dclowd9901 3y ago
    Does that change the point? Even if not in earnest, he was able to deflect suspicion wearing a cloak of EA. That, in and of itself, is a problem. Nothing is above reproach, no matter how pious or nerdy.
  • tempsy 3y ago
    His brother was heading some “Guarding against pandemics” non-profit that he was involved with. I believe there was one California proposition they were heavily funding related to it. I don’t know if it was started in earnest or if there was some ulterior motive.
    • reactordev 3y ago
      Good doesn’t cancel out the bad
      • kodapoda 3y ago
        Even further: debatable unproven good doesn't cancel out the immediate unmistakable bad. Sponsoring a regulation with stolen money is also self-serving (political influence), plus we don't have any data available to say that the regulation resulted in any societal good. We do know, though, that the stolen money negatively affected millions of people.
        • reactordev 3y ago
          Equally: indentured servitude in restitution isn't a valid rehabilitation strategy. It doesn't deter nor contract ones thinking to doing criminal activities. The only thing we can do it weigh punishment to severity of the crimes. SBF will soon find out what value that is.
      • mbrumlow 3y ago
        This sounded like more bad actually.
        • reactordev 3y ago
          Yes but the article talked about EA and how giving to causes blindly ignoring means is kinda the M.O. of it all. So "good" (giving) doesn't cancel out the "bad" (robbing customer funds).
          • 3y ago
  • ajross 3y ago
    > He's just been found guilty of fraud on multiple counts, so clearly the whole "Effective altruism" was just a image he was trying to present, while acting completely against it in private. I don't think that's right. In his head, it wasn't fraud. He was moving money around to backstop losses, sure, and OK, technically it wasn't his. But it was all going to be OK in the end and no one would know. No one was going to lose any money, so no fraud. QED. In the real world, criminals don't think they're criminals. Everyone's got a good reason for doing what they do.
    • deleted 3y ago
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    • bitcharmer 3y ago
      I can only buy this logic if one of the following is true: 1) SBF is an crook 2) SBF is an idiot
      • TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
        I agree. Given his professional history I believe the first option is likely. At the same time, he clearly isn’t that smart. He left an enormous trail of evidence in his wake, and his fraud wasn’t even that sophisticated.
        • tickerticker 3y ago
          He was smart enough to get into MIT. Probably not as smart as Goethe.
    • notahacker 3y ago
      I think the key thing is that everything he's ever said and done (including the stuff that harmed only Sam Bankman Fried as well as the stuff that benefited him and the stuff that was illegal and lost his customers money) screams gambling addict. Its debatable whether the EA stuff was rationalisation of those impulses or reputation laundering, but he was quite explicit about the fact that his idea of "saving humanity" involved making massive financial bets whilst dismissing the idea of hedging against the downsides even in fawning interviews published by VCs that had invested in him. In that respect, his public image was entirely in keeping with the sort of person that wouldn't be bothered by a few regulations about customer funds, because what if he could double them by ignoring the regulation?...
  • CyberDildonics 3y ago
    It's actually very common for companies doing terrible things like fraud, environmental damage, bait and switches, patent abuse etc. to lean hard on promoting social work they're doing. This is so common that short sellers like Kyle Bass actually look for it as an additional red flag when hunting down fraudulent companies.
  • FireBeyond 3y ago
    I think anything SBF did to benefit others was a byproduct or side effect of what he was actually doing, enriching/empowering himself, like you say. Or, at best, a hedge in the form of insurance against bad PR.
  • tmaly 3y ago
    He did give a lot of money, just not in a way that fit the image of EA.
  • mc32 3y ago
    The argument is akin to saying bank robbery is a feature not a big when the thief donates his or her takes to charities of soup kitchens or what have you. It’s a ridiculous high school level argument.
  • aeternum 3y ago
    Yes, he admitted multiple times that it was all just an act for public perception. Can't get much more clear than this: KP: you were really good at talking about ethics, for someone who kind of saw it all as a game with winners and losers SBF: ya SBF: hehe SBF: I had to be SBF: it's what reputations are made of, to some extent SBF: I feel bad for those who get f***** by it SBF: by this dumb game we woke westerners play where we say all the right shiboleths [sic] and so everyone likes us
    • runjake 3y ago
      Apparent source: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23462333/sam-bankman-fried-ftx-cryptocurrency-effective-altruism-crypto-bahamas-philanthropy https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23462333/sam-bankman-frie...
    • WD40forRust 3y ago
      Based.
    • mynegation 3y ago
      That’s what happens if one tries and mispronounces “shibboleth”.
      • raverbashing 3y ago
        They lose their head? (:
    • QuantumGood 3y ago
      Fraud was certainly a feature of the industry as a whole, e.g. https://web3isgoinggreat.com/ https://web3isgoinggreat.com/
      • colpabar 3y ago
        I think this attitude goes way beyond just crypto/web3. It seems like corporate greed and environmental destruction is a-ok as long as the company tweets in support of woke stuff.
  • injeolmi_love 3y ago
    Most EA adherents focus on process not outcomes. So from an EA position, the fraud outcome doesn’t matter. Imagine if SBF gambles paid off they might say, and that potential outcome must be probablistically weighed against the negative outcome. Since crypto in most EA is viewed as a sin industry, the negative impact is minor relative to the positive impact of SBF political and charity donations, so even a slim chance of success should be taken. However EA logic is wrong because utilitarianism is wrong. It doesn’t matter whether stealing and fraud create good outcomes or not. Theft and fraud are evil in themselves irrespective of outcomes. To put it in an extreme sense, even if it would save the planet you should still not steal nor defraud others. The fact that some actions are in essence evil is enshrined in the legal system, is commonly accepted, and philosophically sound.
    • dirtyv 3y ago
      Theft or fraud would definitely be preferable to the loss of the planet. Utilitarianism aside, sometimes doing the wrong thing actually is the better thing to do. Anyone who helped slaves escape via the Underground Railroad or smuggled Jews out of Nazi Germany would not be considered evil for their actions, and those could easily be construed as theft (in a gross way) or fraud.
      • injeolmi_love 3y ago
        Because humans have a natural right to movement, helping slaves is not theft even if an evil social institution falsely claims it is theft. Similarly regarding eugenics, humans have a natural right to reproduce and to live, so someone assisting someone to escape that situation is in the right no matter what society they live in. Extreme moral relativism like you’re mentioning here is just as wrong as utilitarianism. It’s not preferable to steal than to lose the planet. Some things really are worse than death, and committing an evil action is wrong no matter what the justification the evildoer makes.
        • dirtyv 3y ago
          Evil is not a 100% settled matter. For example, some people believe that saving another person's life if you can is a moral obligation and to not do so would be an evil act. I gather from your refusal to even consider stealing something in order to save the planet you are in the other camp.
  • mplewis 3y ago
    What would be the difference between SBF being an effective altruist and doing fraud to hoard wealth until his dying day when he would turn it all into a public good, and saying he was and doing everything up until the last step? The fraud is still illegal. He would still have gone to jail.
  • jstarfish 3y ago
    > I'm not sure how anyone could argue that what SBF was doing fits it any way with that. He's just been found guilty of fraud on multiple counts, EA strikes me as the same sort of ambiguous slime as "breast cancer awareness." You read the words and think hey, that sounds right. Benefit others as efficiently as possible. Guy's a Robin Hood type, stealing from the rich to benefit others. Good for you, buddy. Godspeed. Except you look at what he's actually doing and see he's not stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. He's stealing from the foolish and giving to "others," who turn out to be his friends and associates. $500m to Anthropic? $5b for Twitter? This shit isn't charity. It's kleptocracy masquerading as charity. I can't see his charitable causes as anything more than an ephemeral funds-parking scheme storing funds in a chain of IOUs.
  • 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
    SBF cannot even manage "ineffective" altruism. He puts other people through hell without a hint of empathy. How would anyone expect he could do "effective" altruism. In his own words, he "fucked up". But he is not sorry, he offers no apology, he's "not guilty". He is a compulsive liar. It will be interesting how he fares in prison. Martin Shkrelli wants to be his friend. Perhaps they can be pen pals. Maybe he'll get special treatment or early release. Even if SBF was following the EA playbook to the letter, it did not work. The attempt was ineffective. He failed. Michael Lewis shared some SBF story where the scenario (the bet) presented to SBF was a chance to make the world better or, if it failed, the entire world would be destroyed. SBF allegedly would take that bet. All or nothing. Where have we seen this type of thinking before.
    • omnimus 3y ago
      Somehow our society puts the non-alturistic people into positions which have most impact. I guess the ineffective alturist knows its almost impossible to get to such position without wronging others. And its the ruthless fool with savior complex that puts himself above others “to save them”.
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    • 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
      Ellison also shared the coin flip story on the stand, something like "heads the world is twice as good, tails the world is destroyed."
• Zhyl 3y ago
  A shipowner was about to send to sea an emigrant-ship. He knew that she was old, and not overwell built at the first; that she had seen many seas and climes, and often had needed repairs. Doubts had been suggested to him that possibly she was not seaworthy. These doubts preyed upon his mind, and made him unhappy; he thought that perhaps he ought to have her thoroughly overhauled and and refitted, even though this should put him at great expense. Before the ship sailed, however, he succeeded in overcoming these melancholy reflections. He said to himself that she had gone safely through so many voyages and weathered so many storms that it was idle to suppose she would not come safely home from this trip also. He would put his trust in Providence, which could hardly fail to protect all these unhappy families that were leaving their fatherland to seek for better times elsewhere. He would dismiss from his mind all ungenerous suspicions about the honesty of builders and contractors. In such ways he acquired a sincere and comfortable conviction that his vessel was thoroughly safe and seaworthy; he watched her departure with a light heart, and benevolent wishes for the success of the exiles in their strange new home that was to be; and he got his insurance-money when she went down in mid-ocean and told no tales. What shall we say of him? Surely this, that he was verily guilty of the death of those men. It is admitted that he did sincerely believe in the soundness of his ship; but the sincerity of his conviction can in no wise help him, because he had no right to believe on such evidence as was before him. He had acquired his belief not by honestly earning it in patient investigation, but by stifling his doubts. And although in the end he may have felt so sure about it that he could not think otherwise, yet inasmuch as he had knowingly and willingly worked himself into that frame of mind, he must be held responsible for it. W.K. Clifford https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Philosophy/Philosophy_of_Western_Religions_(Levin_et_al.)/01%3A_THE_BASICS_OF_RELIGIONS_AND_THE_NATURE_OF_BELIEF/1.05%3A_The_Ethics_of_Belief_(W.K._Clifford) https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Philosophy/Philosop...
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  • eropple 3y ago
    This is a good pull. I think about The Ethics of Belief a lot.
  • jodrellblank 3y ago
• dangus 3y ago
  I think this article assigns a lot of blame to Effective Altruism that really belongs in classic narcissism and power tripping. SBF wasn’t even an idealist’s version of an effective altruist, he basically lied and told everyone that he was one, probably in a vain attempt to explain where all the money went. That’s not to say that EA doesn’t deserve its own criticism, but SBF was only pretending to be one on TV.
• temptemptemp111 3y ago
  [dead]
• honksillet 3y ago
  The true feature was the political donations making their way back into the accounts of politicians.
• alexmuro 3y ago
  As someone who creates data and analysis which get used in setting policy I do find a lot of EA spreadsheet analysis of measured "good" to be very niave to the nature of measurement and classification. That being said, I think this peice is a bit of an overreaction and there seem to be many earnest actors in the EA community really thinking about how they can do good in the world. SBF is very unfortunate for EA, but to jump from him example to saying all EA practitioners care exclusively about the ends over the means is a bit of a leap, imo.
  • axlee 3y ago
    It's just a bunch of privileged armchair humanitarians who never left the confines of their fancy circles, let alone been confronted to the things they're trying to fix. They think they can fix issues better than NGOs which have had boots on the grounds for decades, just because they know python and excel, as if people actually working on humanitarian causes were benevolent r**ards. Of course, it allows for great intellectual masturbation and self-congratulation, as if fixing complex social/ecological issues was just about "cracking a problem" and presenting a neat 12-page PPT presentation, before moving to the next problem. If any of these people actually walked the talk, we'd see a lot more one-way tickets to Africa for them to finally be able to employ their beautiful minds on real problems.
    • low_tech_love 3y ago
      The best comment I’ve read in HN for a really long time.
  • bee_rider 3y ago
    For someone outside the space (like me), what’s the big innovation of Effective Altruism? I assume when the rubber hits the road, most people doing big donations have people to look at the effectiveness of that donation. I guess I’m just suspicious of any community or movement that labels itself as “effective,” because it is hard to believe that they were the first ones to think of the idea of not being ineffective, haha.
    • 3y ago
• searealist 3y ago
  This is actually good for bitcoin^Weffective altruism.
• fardo 3y ago
  When reading teardowns of Effective Altruism, I always find them light on substance and preferable alternatives. I see two typical failure modes. Half of the time, they fall into a > cannot separate the man from the idea trap of “someone with a corrupted moral compass once believed this, ergo the idea itself is bad”, which doesn’t follow. The other half does engage with the idea, but seemingly only ever half of it. They tend make the first step successfully, > People can use a veneer of charity and rationality to ignore ethical issues Which is definitely true, but don’t seem to actually take on the ideas purported main thrust, that “if one intends to give charitably, one ought to bias their choices towards causes that give money as effectively as possible at meeting your goals”, which frankly seems pretty air-tight I think the core is that a lot of people have a problem with admitting someone they dislike had a pretty sensible idea.
  • HideousKojima 3y ago
    Simplest teardown of EA: it's heavily derived from/based on utilitarianism, a moral philosophy that very few people actually believe in and one that leads to monstrously evil results if followed to its logical conclusion in certain circumstances.
    • BoxFour 3y ago
      Utilitarianism, the principle of maximizing good for the greatest number of people, is fairly common in informing social norms and policy-making. It's a guideline, but not an absolute rule. We can acknowledge its value as a general approach yet also recognize situations where a strictly utilitarian choice would be abhorrent. Life is not so black-and-white.
  • deleted 3y ago
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  • supriyo-biswas 3y ago
    The points that you (and other commenters) make is ultimately related to the fact that when a person being shunned belongs to an outgroup, they are categorized as a representative sample of the group. In other words, the entire group is assumed to be consisted of homogeneous individuals, exhibiting roughly the same behavior as the one being discredited. However, if said person were to belong to an ingroup, then said person is categorized as an outlier by its members. We can see lots of such examples in politics, such as people casting similar aspersions about how the recent action of a single person in an outgroup proves the larger aspirations of said group, about how "they're out to destroy society", and the like.
• jaidhyani 3y ago
  I will never cease to wonder at how so many people can blame so much on people trying to take a rigorous approach to world improvement, up to and including "a narcissistic con-man claimed to do trying to do X, and I can imagine a scenario where someone could justify doing the shitty things he did to justify X, so therefore everyone trying to do X must also suck and be complicit in fraud and assorted sins".
• cromulent 3y ago
  > Michael Lewis, along with a cadre of others, have astonishingly aligned themselves with the EA bamboozlers, steadfastly standing by their erstwhile idol I read his book and some interviews and this is hyperbole. And poor use of “erstwhile”.
  • furyofantares 3y ago
    Zvi has an extremely long review of the Michael Lewis book which makes it clear to me that you're right, this is hyperbole. https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2023/10/24/book-review-going-infinite/#more-23566 https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2023/10/24/book-review-going-in...
  • goldfish3 3y ago
    Yeah, the way I read it Lewis comes down on EA fairly hard. Rather his conclusion boils down to seeing EA and SBF's actions as misguided/naive, not intentionally fraudulent (which I disagree with).
• sigil 3y ago
  > On November 11, FTX fell apart and was revealed as a giant scam. Suddenly everyone hated effective altruists. Publications that had been feting us a few months before pivoted to saying they knew we were evil all along. I practiced rehearsing the words “I have never donated to charity, and if I did, I certainly wouldn’t care whether it was effective or not”. From Scott Alexander’s post on why, as an EA, he donated a kidney. https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/my-left-kidney https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/my-left-kidney
  • letmeinhere 3y ago
    This guy has a huge persecution complex, remember how he reacted to a largely positive press profile that was going to publish his name?
    • DisgracePlacard 3y ago
      I remember! He was happy about it -- until he found out that the NYT was going to doxx him and publish his name, which would've likely had highly negative effects for himself and his psychiatric patients. The NYT didn't care, of course -- and they attempted to cover him a lot more negatively, as a result of the backlash they received.
      • staticman2 3y ago
        That's an interesting take. An alternative take is he desperately sought to become a public intellectual for personal reasons- while simultaneously believing this would hurt his patients, and declared this the New York Times's problem. I thought he regularly preaches the presumption of good faith, even when discussing some of the most radical people in the world, interesting how that's not extended to the NY Times for the sin of... using a real name policy?
        • tickerticker 3y ago
          Doxxing is not good faith
• deleted 3y ago
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• 23B1 3y ago
  Most philosophies fail in the execution, typically because the execution is handled by humans.
• jampekka 3y ago
  This is mentioned in passing in TFA but the fundamental problem of EA, and all charity in general, is that it ignores and often even perpetuates the societal structures that create most of the problems that charity tries to patch up. Of course if it would try to address the structural problems, it wouldn't be charity but politics. And politics are bad because it could change the structure.
  • Kevin_S 3y ago
    I disagree with this - traditional philanthropy does ignore systematic/societal problems, for many reasons it is simply unable to. EA tries to look at the bigger picture of effectiveness, and many within EA do believe that political solutions are a good use of resources. For example, many of the new charities created by Charity Entrepreneurship spend their time lobbying governments. Relative to traditional philanthropy, I think EA has a real shot at the systemic changes necessary to make real change.
• waihtis 3y ago
  In other news, real communism has never been tried
• Kevin_S 3y ago
  This article makes a fundamental mistake that many who have written about EA make - by treating the philosophical and real-world application of EA as the same thing. EA is such a new philosophy and movement that the philosophy and application of EA are not sufficiently divorced from one another, and the people at the core of "philosophy EA" are also involved in "application EA". So this is an easy mistake to make. There are people in rooms discussing whether "the ends justify the means" (though I don't think anyone is seriously arguing in favor of SBF-type means). BUT THESE ARE PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSIONS. If you asked 1,000 effective altruists if they think what SBF did was acceptable (or gave a hypothetical ends justify the means at 10% of the severity of SBF), I would wager that 0 would say it was acceptable. SBF used EA as a shield to hide his fraudulent behavior, and EA (both the philosophy and application sides) have taken a hard look at what EA argues for, and to think that EA (even philosophy EA) would approve of SBF's behavior do not understand EA at all. --- I study EA and so I am loosely connected to the movement, but I don't consider myself an effective altruist.
• DanielBMarkham 3y ago
  This essay is a mess. I won't flag it, but I doubt with such poor definitions it'll make much of a useful conversation on HN. I counted four topics in the first few paragraphs that the author defined in a poor, self-serving way. Any one of these topics and associated definitions would be interesting to talk about. Put them all together and it's just too much to clean up (for folks taking any kind of issue at all with the thesis or conclusion.) It was well-structured and cogent, though. Kudos to the author for that. That puts them well above other essays of this type.
  • mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    The author lost me at the title, tbh.
• uptownfunk 3y ago
  God this “X is a feature not a bug” has become so cringe
• dvt 3y ago
  Effective Altruism is nth degree utilitarianism which even a college freshman can tell you has very unsatisfying answers to all kinds of fairly trivial ethical puzzles. Not even remotely surprising that a sociopathic fraudster subscribed to these ideas. It's the same kind of ethical framework that early 20th century eugenicists were quite fond of.
• worik 3y ago
  > promising to solve the world's woes through a calculator. SBF || !SBF that was the problem
• primitivesuave 3y ago
  When Oppenheimer witnessed the first explosion of a nuclear weapon, he quelled his ethical reservations over the destructive power of his creation with a verse from the Bhagavad Gita [1] often mistranslated as the deity stating "I am death, destroyer of worlds", but more accurately - "I am time, and I will destroy these people with or without your involvement". Had the scientists of the Manhattan project (Oppenheimer, Fermi, Szilard, etc) subscribed to the EA philosophy, they would have been unlikely to work on nuclear weapons development, and millions more would have likely perished in a land invasion of Japan. However, millions of Southeast Asians and South Americans did perish in the subsequent "proxy wars" of the Cold War era, so you can make a convincing historical "what if" either way. Effective altruism is not a very useful philosophy if you don't actually know what is best for humanity. Oppenheimer's philosophy (the Gita philosophy) was to simply do his job without being attached to the outcome. 1. https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/11/verse/32 https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/11/verse/32
  • bitcharmer 3y ago
    That's incorrect. The translation quoted by Oppenheimer is actually more accurate than yours. The other two, more popular are: "The Supreme Lord said: I am mighty Time, the source of destruction that comes forth to annihilate the worlds. Even without your participation, the warriors arrayed in the opposing army shall cease to exist." [0] "Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa said: Time I am, the mighty destroyer of worlds, and I come to vanquish all living beings. Even without your participation, all the warriors on the opposite side of the battlefield will be killed" [1] [0] - https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/11/verse/32 https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/11/verse/32 [1] - https://asitis.com/11/32.html https://asitis.com/11/32.html
    • cafebee 3y ago
      To my ear, the two translations you listed sound very similar to primitivesuave’s “I am time…” translation and dissimilar to Oppenheimer’s “I am death…” translation. Can you explain why you disagree?
  • monadINtop 3y ago
• slibhb 3y ago
  One of the problems with effective altruism (and consequentialism more generally) is that it's quite hard to look at SBF and say definitively that his actions had net negative consequences. Maybe his donations saved lives. Maybe anthropic (which he famously funded) will save the world. Maybe by discrediting EA, SBF saved the world from EA fanatics. You could ennumerate hypotheticals like this forever, positive and negative. It's for this reason that we have to rely on intuitive moral feelings or there's no way to confidently say that anything is good or bad. That said, I view EA as a call to think more carefully and analytically about our actions and how they affect the world. There's certainly nothing wrong with that as long as it's not taken to bizarre extremes.
• iammjm 3y ago
  What fucking moral boundaries am I overstepping if I donate via EA to get some mosquito nets put up in Africa??
• 8note 3y ago
  It's way easier to point at SBF as a fraudster within the larger group of crypto fraudsters than a fraudster within the larger group of effective altruist fraudsters.
• Nifty3929 3y ago
  This article misrepresents what EA is about, and unfairly links SBF's criminal behavior to that philosophy. SBF is a numerically oriented crook. EA is about attempting to measure and compare different philanthropic approaches in order to optimize where we spend our money, effort and time to benefit humanity. The author incorrectly implies that EA isn't concerned with ethics, or that EA will justify any means to achieve some perceived benefit - but this is the opposite of true. Ethical and moral behavior are required by EA, and in fact are an important part of the utility measured for some philanthropic activity. That is, ethics and morals are worthy goals (or aspects of worthy goals) for EA in and of themselves.
  • letmeinhere 3y ago
    > unfairly links SBF This is some grade A No True Scotsmaning. Sam Bankman-Fried was about as high profile an EA as ever existed, with his personal wealth counted as the bulk of their finances, his FTX Future Fund employing both Nick Beckstead and his old friend William Macaskill, and his political action committee throwing money around Washington to promote crypto and longtermism. Macaskill himself is probably the most famous EA of them all and was in lockstep with SBF for years, dismissing claims of unethical behavior, vouching for him and hooking him up with other rich people like Elon Musk cashing his checks for the charities he controlled, and of course enjoying the finer things in life that FTX could buy without either of these famously ascetic utilitarians could ever imagine doing for themselves.
• ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  > But in neither camp are we seeing the degree of self-reflection that the immolation of their champion should call for. If you watch a herd of gazelles get one of their own munched by a lion, they get the hell out of there. It seems as if these ones are saying "Well, she's got her fill with poor old Sam, over there, so we're all right to keep eating this sweet grass."
• legulere 3y ago
  The biggest logical flaw of effective altruism is valuing potential future lives the same as the lives of existing people. Taking that logic to the extreme it would be okay to kill a person for two additional people being born.
• aj7 3y ago
  If the altruistic narrative had any truth, SBF et al would have been outraged at any one of ten acts, behaviors, thefts, practices, and their underlying attitudes portrayed in his unmasking. He even set his parents up to steal, and they complained when the checks were late, and that was a tiny, but diagnostic part of the scam. More like Madoff II than anything else.
• Arnt 3y ago
  Stated without argument: "EA, in its cold calculus, can justify the unjustifiable in pursuit of an ill-defined "greater good." I'd love to hear an actual argument for that. What sort of cold calculus can justify the unjustifiable? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? I'd love to hear an actual argument for it. I don't want to think that Joan Westenberg (whoever that is) is a purveyor of twisted words. (There are more examples in the article, I picked one because I like examples.)
  • injeolmi_love 3y ago
    EA’s primary philosophical foundation is utilitarianism. Utilitarianism in its standard form only cares about outcomes that maximize global utility for humanity. It does not accept any deontological ethics. Utilitarianism is evil because it allows evil actions to be taken as long as that maximizes utility, thus justifying the unjustifiable. Utilitarianism is wrong because it is still evil to commit fraud even to save human lives. However utilitarianism is popular for people with power, because they can use it to justify their evil actions as for the greater good. Even if they are sincere, their actions are still evil; even if SBF succeeded instead of failing, and sincerely wanted to stop climate change, he would still and rightfully be a criminal.
    • Arnt 3y ago
      Aren't you saying that the unjustifiable is justifiable given the right cost/effect tradeoff? But that the same time saying that doing so is wrong because the unjustifiable is unjustifiable?
      • injeolmi_love 3y ago
        No, I’m contrasting utilitarianism with deontology and explaining why deontological ethics are preferable. Utilitarianism is concerned with effects while deontology is concerned with actions and/or intents. That said there are several arguments from within utilitarianism that support deontology. For instance Bentham mugging indicates a utilitarian should pretend to support a deontology.
• gnarlouse 3y ago
  At what point was the “feature not bug” argument defended? I missed that on first read and can’t be bothered to spin through again. I’m all for the condemnation of fad ideology on the basis of strong arguments, and SBF fucked up, and EA seems dubious, But this article seems like it’s not achieving anything
• eterevsky 3y ago
  The author would've had a point if SBF actually donated all the stolen money to effective charities. But he didn't, he just appropriated it. So his actions are in no way consistent with EA, and shouldn't be considered indicative of it.
• 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  "I work with companies that are $1,000,000+ in revenue." https://joanwestenberg.com/about https://joanwestenberg.com/about Why not not $1,000,000+ in profit.
• tickerticker 3y ago
  In the beginning, SBF probably believed in EA. It helped him recruit the executives of AR and FTX. As FTX experienced the unprecedented growth to fantastical scale, SBF was at the center of it. I strongly suspect he felt deified by it, felt that the market was giving him unqualified approval for his every thought and method. Somewhere in his ascendancy, I suspect that EA became merely a vocabulary of stock responses that he used to explain his decisions and to frame his public image. The immorality began when he chose to ignore his fiduciary duty to his depositors, and instead used their funds as if they were VC money available to fund his ideas. The immorality continued when he gave false financial statements to the AR lenders. It culminated when he tweeted "everything is fine" when the withdrawal rush began. Was he using EA theory to justify these unethical choices? Caroline Ellison thought he was but that was because she was in thrall to his personality. I would be immensely surprised if EA goals ever crossed his mind when he made these decisions. I suspect he was in empire building mode aiming to enter the pantheon of SV tech titans. The WSJ had a chart of "where did the money go" showing that only a miniscule slice of the $16B was donated to philanthropic organizations. It was less than $100M. You are correct that EA has been unmasked as a philosophy unburdened by ethics. However, my view is that SBF only used EA as a convenient label for his motives, when his goals were consolidating his power.
• deleted 3y ago
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• HowardGeraldine 3y ago
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• eugenedolores 3y ago
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• actuallyrizzn 3y ago
  Joan has become something of a buttcoiner (if you understand the reference) in recent years after not achieving the success she was looking for with NFT projects.