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I'm, like, the world's biggest car enthusiast and I love EVs. For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experi

by avalys 3y ago

I'm, like, the world's biggest car enthusiast and I love EVs. For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars. They're smooth, quiet, and powerful and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it! An electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage. It's a shame EVs are not catching on, because they're really just better cars. I'd definitely pay a premium for an EV (and I have). I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.

k8sToGo 3y ago
For me the biggest upside is not having to do oil changes or worry about if the engine is warm or not before reving. Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires.
- gambiting 3y ago
  >>Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires. Why would the tyres be more expensive? Something like ID.3 or MG4 use normal tyres no different than ones you'd put on your normal Fiesta, they aren't any more expensive. The increased tyre wear is a problem but only in that it's directly linked with how heavy your foot is, and EVs make it much easier to have a heavy foot as you don't get any typical downsides of heavy acceleration you'd get in a petrol/diesel car.
  - KingMob 3y ago
    It's not just easier acceleration, EVs are also heavier. Between those two factors, it adds up to something like only 70-80% of the normal lifetime of standard ICE tires.
    - gambiting 3y ago
      >>EVs are also heavier. Like for like compared to the same model with an ICE drivetrain? Sure. But that doesn't mean that all EVs are heavy. Our Volkswagen e-Up is only 1200kg. Volskwagen ID.3 is 1740kg which I suppose is heavy, but a Diesel Golf 8 is nearly 1500kg, so the weight difference isn't that massive. And something like a Nissan Qashqai is 1700kg in a diesel, so if you swapped that for a new ID.3 you haven't bought a heavier car at all.
      - KingMob 3y ago
        We're talking about averages, here.
      - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
        > Our Volkswagen e-Up is only 1200kg. Compared to 997kg in en ICE version.
        gambiting 3y ago
        200kg is not going to make any measurable difference in how long your tyres last. My other car, Volvo XC60 T8 is a PHEV and is 400kg(!!!!!!) heavier than the equivalent petrol-only model. Yet my first set of tyres lasted 30k miles - how much longer do people expect tyres to last?
- jgilias 3y ago
  Mine has a standard tire size. I just put on the winter set for the third season, and I’m pretty sure they’re going to last at least a season or two more. So, changing tires every 4-5 seasons? Exactly the same as I do for my ICE car. I do imagine that the thin tires they put on BMW i3s would last less. But for most people getting an EV now I can’t see how increased tire wear would be a practical problem. And I do drive dynamically, let’s say. It’s just too fun not too.
- TexanFeller 3y ago
  I don't see how oil changes is an EV selling point at all. Modern ICE cars ask for them every 7-10k miles. If I go to one of the extortionate places like Jiffy Lube it's still only $75 and half an hour of my time every year or two.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    I’d just rather not do it at all. I also enjoy charging at work for free. We only pay to charge on road trips. It’s been a massive savings in fuel cost for us.
gmac 3y ago
This wholly depends on your use case. Most of my miles are done on long journeys. I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home. UK charging infrastructure seems pretty underdeveloped so far. My 2018 petrol car does 600 miles on a tank. The upshot of all that is that an EV would give me half the range at twice the cost, and a headache every time I needed to charge it. I really want EVs to get better, and I’m sure they will. But for now, they’re hugely inferior for me.
- gambiting 3y ago
  >>I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home I'm still waiting to hear how the government plans to solve this or incentivize private investment for this setup to work. Because yeah, if you live in UK and don't have a private drive then I have no idea how you're using an electric car, unless you literally have a Tesla and live right next to a supercharger(I know one person with that setup and it works fine for them, it's literally one 20 minute stop a week and they get enough charge to last them a week). >>Most of my miles are done on long journeys. Funnily enough, for that use case you should be ok-ish, as most motorway stops in the UK are now equipped with rapid chargers, so if you're just driving up and down the country you should be able to just charge when you stop for a break, and with modern EVs easily doing 200+ miles per charge this really shouldn't be an issue. The other thing is - you are an outlier if most of your driving is done on long journeys. Most people use their car to do a school run and commute to work, usually no more than 30-50 miles a day. If that's your setup(and you can charge at home), then EVs(and PHEVs to a large extent) are just a no brainer.
  - throwaway68834 3y ago
    >Most people use their car to do a school run and commute to work, usually no more than 30-50 miles a day. I assume that to be true in most places, however, one has to consider that even those people occasionally make long distance travels. What happens if for whatever emergency I have drive 500 mi across the state, keep an ICE just in case? Hit the hay to wait for my car to recharge?
    - 3y ago
city41 3y ago
I still marvel that my pretty basic Kia Niro EV provides the quiet, smoothness and smooth power delivery that Rolls Royce has been trying to get out of their v12s for decades. And it gets it without even trying, it's just how electric motors are.
- gambiting 3y ago
  Yep, I have a Volvo PHEV and in EV mode it is smoother, quieter and just more luxurious experience than a Range Rover V8 that I used to have(and that was like pinnacle of luxury at the time).
- nikster 3y ago
  It's a new level. Kia, Hyundai (same company I think) are well situated. As are BMW, Mercedes, and obviously Tesla. But... Toyota? Nowhere to be seen, has some also-ran EVs in production. The old American carmakers - absent. VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing. The biggest carmakers in the world have a vested interest in keeping EVs off the market for as long as possible.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    > The old American carmakers - absent. Ford F-150 electric Lightning truck has production issues, but it exists. Same with the Cadillac LYRIQ. VW's ID.4 is also all-electric. Tesla and the gigafactory has a head start on the critical component - batteries - but the rest of the industry has started to wake up.
  - seszett 3y ago
    > VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing. Well I think they're the third EV manufacturer in the world for 2023. BYD is first (I guess mostly in China), Tesla second and Stellantis (Peugeot, Fiat and some American brands I think) fourth. Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes (didn't even know they made EVs but apparently they do) Toyota and the other brands I'm reading about in these comments are all much further down the charts, so I'm not sure what to think. Maybe the American market is so different that most commenters here have a warped view of the actual EV market in the rest of the world
gambiting 3y ago
>>It's a shame EVs are not catching on I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively.
- zhdc1 3y ago
  > I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively. Marketshare growth is excellent. Car manufacturers and government regulators bet the farm on mass EV adoption. Current EVs and EV infrastructure haven't solved the range anxiety/charging issue yet. Suburban US, where most people own a garage, is an outlier. Waiting 10-15 years for prolific street-level infrastructure to be built out doesn't solve the fact that there are unsold EVs on dealer lots today. Of course, there are plenty of use cases where range anxiety simply isn't relevant. Ditto why marketshare is still growing and will likely continue to grow.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Is your comment just focused on the USA? Because in China/Europe, the migration to EVs are irreversible at this point.
akira2501 3y ago
The economy market currently appears to favor EVs for comfort, depending on whether weather is a factor where you live. This isn't saying very much, and an incorrect consumer focus is possibly the reason these manufacturers are having the difficulties they are.
arka2147483647 3y ago
I think the driving feel of toyota hybrid is actually closest to ev of ice cars, because of the smooth and gearless starting and stopping it does with its integrated electric motor. The change to ice on higher speed is also usually seamless. This being true in normal family car speeds. It lacks the acceleration of course.
nikster 3y ago
The better tech always wins in the end. It's a no-brainer. The problem with resistance of the existing auto industry is that if everyone buys EVs the big American carmakers go out of business. GM, Ford, etc have nothing, no technology to compete, their EVs are still crap, they are unable to catch up. So are many Japanese carmakers also BTW. I was recently in Hong Kong - a good 50% of cars there are EVs thanks to tax breaks - no taxes on EVs while other cars are heavily taxed, so that makes even high end EVs cheaper than mid range gas cars. I think I tried every single model EV using Uber, Mercedes, BMW, and Tesla primarily, they're all really great EVs, great cars, great range, great comfort, obviously insane acceleration. Just better cars. There's also a range of Chinese EVs coming up - didn't test I guess they are too rare to show up on Uber. American carmakers then spread all sorts of FUD about EVs such that my facebook feed is full of people who really believe EVs are worse for the environment than their exploding mineral oil machines. They hold back all development through propaganda, lawmaking, political influence, anything and everything they can do - because they can easily act like a mafia. They can't easily compete with the good EVs of the world. Or at all. Situation report complete.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
lm28469 3y ago
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit. I'd buy a used $5k piece of shit over that any day. I'm as interested in cars as I am in hammers, as long as it gets me from a to b I absolutely don't give a shit. $30k is like 5+ years of saving for a lot of people, even in the west. That's a lot of money for a liability. For the price of a modern EV you can buy a flat in many region of the developed world too...
- nsteel 3y ago
  So the suggestion is to buy a flat near b instead? I can't think how else that comment is relevant.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    All I'm saying is that when the HN crowd talk about "cheap" cars for the vast majority of people it's deep into the "will never be able to afford" price category. Even the shittiest EV you can get from Dacia is above most people budget, it does o-60mph in like 20 seconds and can't go faster than ~75mph
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      In the US, loans are commonly used to amortize costs over a period of time, allowing people to buy things even when they do not have the cash to pay the purchase price.
      - lm28469 3y ago
        Is this something I'm supposed to look at with envy ? My grand parents didn't have to get a loan to buy a basic cars, my parent neither, they were far from rich. But alas, now people get into debt for TVs and smartphones, so what do I know, I must be a boomer!
        JohnFen 3y ago
zhdc1 3y ago
So yes and no. > ...and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it! If you have a home charging station. This immediately excludes a - very - large number of people in the EU and metropolitan US who live in multifamily housing or older towns and cities. > an electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage. What are we comparing? A Tesla Model 3 against most non-premium cars? Of course. An MG5 EV/Roewe EI5 against a BMW B48 or a Honda K20C1? Questionable. Let's not forget that there are plenty of fuel efficient 6 cylinder mild hybrid platforms that, quite frankly, compete very well with premium EVs. Range anxiety aside, are they necessarily better? Again, questionable, but the overall package that comes with an M340d or an A6 55TFSI is better than the equivalent Model 3/S (or even, imo, any of BMW or Audi's EVs).
- revscat 3y ago
  Climate change is a species-ending threat. Emissions caused by fossil fuels is a huge piece of that.
  - zhdc1 3y ago
    > Climate change is a species-ending threat. Emissions caused by fossil fuels is a huge piece of that. It's not a species-ending threat (at least, to humans). That said, the realistic outlook for global warming is bad enough. EV is a technology in transition. It will get there. It's getting there. It's not "there" yet for every use case. Why? A large part isn't because of the technology, it's about population density. The countries that pollute the most also happen to have sub-par public transportation networks. Range anxiety isn't an issue when the default option for most people is light rail. The solution is likely going to come down to: 1. Urban planning. Car friendly zoning, building codes, minimum parking requirements, and other regulations are starting be reversed in the US. It's already happened across most of the EU. 2. Switch to low emissions electricity generation. Power plants are still the leading emitter, full stop. 3. EV adoption. My point above wasn't an argument against EVs as a technology, but a statement of fact that - as a technology in transition - it's not superior for all major use cases. This should change over the next couple of decades.
deepGem 3y ago
My read is that the sweet spot price for EV mass adoption is $15k with about just enough range to manage. Like a 200 mile range with extremely fast charging. A smaller battery that can charge in like 5-7 mins. The car can be a bit smaller, 0-60 in 6 or 7 seconds should be good enough. What this implies is that there needs a greater density of charging stations - which Tesla is anyway working on this. So in a Tesla super charger, if I can charge to 80% in 5 mins and get 150-160 mile range am good. Even if I don’t have a garage at home, this should work with appropriate alerting, routing etc. An electric car for the non-enthusiasts, for those who just need a car to get stuff done.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  That’s just not realistic, there aren’t any ICE powered cars in the US that are $15k new.
michpoch 3y ago
> For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars. The core issue is that it's not the case for most people. If you can afford an EV, have a house with a garage where you can plug in the car - you're basically a corner case. The reality for most people in Europe: car should cost 5 - 10k EUR (used), 10 - 20k new, it'll be parked on the street and need to be practical both for driving in a city as well as for longer trips. We're still pretty far away from any of these goals. I imagine something like Skoda Enyaq, with 800 km - 1000 km of range, for 25 - 30'000 EUR max, with tax included (an equivalent to VW Golf Variant).
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  it'll be parked on the street Wait, "most" (most than 50%) of cars are parked on the street in Europe? Bollocks. I guess max 15-20%.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Unless there's been some EU-wide massive secret project to construct underground parkings under most existing buildings that I'm not aware of, then yeah, most. We don't really have US style suburbs, rural areas are a rounding error for this calculation, so that leaves us with urban areas. Garages in apartment buildings are a luxury, only some new developments have underground parking, so most cars stay either on building-adjacent open-air parking zones, or are parked on the street.
  - 4gotunameagain 3y ago
    A claim which is very easy to gather information for. Just open google maps, satellite view, and look into any major European city. Given the known ~70% urbanisation of the EU, it seems feasible. From my own, anecdotal experience, I would say way more than most cars are parked outside. Most of the times a block away. Some annoying times, much farther.
  - skrunch 3y ago
    Page 72 here: https://publications.europa.eu/resource/cellar/2d5d968f-4f4c-4ee0-82e2-a7a136dfd187.0001.02/DOC_1 https://publications.europa.eu/resource/cellar/2d5d968f-4f4c... 45-55% in most countries (France seems like an outlier), but even that is above 20%.
rmbyrro 3y ago
It seems your personal preference isn't the prevalent preference of the market, yet. Most car buyers have a different mindset. Your rationale doesn't resonate with them. A good amount of them actually enjoy what you described as "garbage". They don't hear "loud" noises, they hear a pleasant sound.
- Panzer04 3y ago
  I don't think most people care. However, EVs still tend to mid-range or higher prices, and still don't have much of a used market at reasonable prices. You can judge preferences better when a run of the mill EV can be had in running condition for a reasonable used price (5-10k)
- asimovfan 3y ago
  Definitely not most, especially not anyone who has to deal with traffic, exhaust gas etc every day in bigger cities where "most" are.
spacecadet 3y ago
Im the same. Even own a classic car that I rarely drive and have plans to convert to electric once the right kit is available. But these people clinging to ICE because... so many bad reasons. Basically manufacturing consent.
toddmorey 3y ago
The EV market is in a strange spot. Tesla knows how to make an amazing battery electric powertrain & software experience but struggles to make the rest of the car. (I rented a low-end ICE Mazda and the interior build quality was sooo much better than our Tesla. A few generations beyond.) Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. The initial offerings from Toyota & Mazda have been terrible. I am surprised that the Ford Lightning hasn't done better. It's a great truck, that can't seem to compete with itself (cheaper gasoline versions). I'll be curious to see how the electric Escalade does. That thing looks incredible and I think is the right brand / market for a premium SUV.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  > Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. You mean traditional American automakers? I can see a few compelling electric cars from European manufacturers.
jeo123 3y ago
That is your perspective driving like shit. A lot of people I know still uses the manual gearbox to give them the "car feel". Some dknt even want power steering because they like to wrestle with the car during turn.
roland35 3y ago
Good luck finding a Toyota hybrid, it's shocking just how little inventory they have. I absolutely love my plug in hybrid - but they are just so hard to actually purchase right now, and the economics don't make sense when you have dealers selling them at a huge markup.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
I would love to own an EV, but even as a well-to-do middle income, they're just.so.expensive right now! And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-( I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner. They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Tesla Model 3 in California costs about 25,000 USD after gov't rebates. Is this really too "just.so.expensive"?
  - NikolaNovak 3y ago
    Tesla model 3 is 54k CAD officially. I've heard rumours of people being able to buy it that price but never met an actual person or even heard of a cousins best friend who did. Cheapest anybody has been able to get it that I'm aware of is 60ish K CAD, plus usual stuff (taxes delivery etc). That's... A lot of money for a car. We just bought a nice 5 door hatchback for 19kcad (25k cad all in) . It's not a comparable car on any granular metric, but it's a car! It takes me places! At literally one Third the price. If I want to go for fun, I can get a wrx for 35k or gti for 40. If I want a practical car I can get a minivan for 40k or any number of (ugh) SUVs. Tesla 3 on the other hand is a luxury, not a practical choice. It'll never ever ever pay off on cost/economy basis. And that's ok! Luxury cars exist and are great,for those who want and can afford them. It may be fun and enjoyable and status symbol, but it's the Apple of cars. Some people are into it while many of us balk at the value proposition (or perceived lack thereof). So yes - it's just. So. Expensive! For me at least, when I look at other options and alternatives :). edit/addition: Same is the case for most other EVs. Nissan Leaf starts at 42k CAD, Mazda 3 starts at 24k CAD. Ioniq 5 starts at 51K CAD, VW Taos starts at 30k. Basically, EVs are $12k - $25k more than ICE cars, where I'm at. And $12K is a lot of money! That's how much whole cars used to cost as recently as 3 years ago (and you can still get a brand new car for $15k though you probably shouldn't:). Again, it's a bit of HN bubble, or possibly California special circumstances, where Tesla can even begin to be discussed as an affordable :-/
subpixel 3y ago
My RAV4 Prime gets 50 miles to the charge and has a gas tank for everything else. FFS if it got 100 miles to the charge it would be the perfect EV for most daily driver scenarios. Also, the number of people who can’t charge in their own yard or driveway or garage is significant. I would never, ever drive am EV without my own plug at home.
loudmax 3y ago
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit. I'm absolutely happy with my plug-in Prius. I have a short commute, and it gets me to work and back on a single charge. Every now and then when I need to go for a longer drive, I'll switch to gas which has a range of hundreds of miles. I charge it at home and I fill the tank about three or four times a year. The car definitely drives differently in the two modes. It's no Tesla, but electric acceleration is much more responsive and faster than a traditional sedan, like a Corolla or a Civic. Driving in gas mode feels like driving a Prius. If it fits your needs, I recommend looking into plug-in hybrids. But I'm no car enthusiast. My car is functional, not a status symbol.
MrMan 3y ago
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scruple 3y ago
I'd love an EV but I've got 3 kids in car seats. As far as I know, only Rivian is making something that would work for our needs and I'm not paying $85,000 for it.
textbookrental 3y ago
Maybe your next car will run on smugness.
kjkjadksj 3y ago
>drives like shit. We are in the era where the super cars I grew up with are handily lapped by a honda accord. Driving has never been better than right now.
delfinom 3y ago
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit. Modern Hybrids (not Priuses) drive like normal cars. >than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today I have a 181HP Honda Civic with said turbo 4cyl, it's not noisy and is quieter than my original v6 Accord. A little less power (30HP less) but the fuel economy is insane, I average 40 MPG sitting in NYC traffic for 2 hours. 35 MPG on my normal commutes. These small engines are fine, the problem is what automakers do with them.
perryizgr8 3y ago
Conventional petrol/diesel cars are way better for most people. I don't want an insane 0-60 time, my corolla is fast enough. More importantly, ICE cars have attained an incredible level of reliability. Honestly this type of robustness is rarely found in any other consumer class equipment. On top of that, I can (and have) jump into my car with a close to empty fuel tank, and go on a 1000 km journey without worrying about how and when I'll fill up. EVs don't have that, because even if your route has a lot of public chargers, it will still take you way longer to charge up. Edit: I'm not saying EVs are unreliable, just that I'm not gonna pay cash to be part of that experiment. I'll get in once the technology has proven itself.

by avalys 3y ago

k8sToGo 3y ago

For me the biggest upside is not having to do oil changes or worry about if the engine is warm or not before reving. Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires.

gambiting 3y ago
>>Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires. Why would the tyres be more expensive? Something like ID.3 or MG4 use normal tyres no different than ones you'd put on your normal Fiesta, they aren't any more expensive. The increased tyre wear is a problem but only in that it's directly linked with how heavy your foot is, and EVs make it much easier to have a heavy foot as you don't get any typical downsides of heavy acceleration you'd get in a petrol/diesel car.
- KingMob 3y ago
  It's not just easier acceleration, EVs are also heavier. Between those two factors, it adds up to something like only 70-80% of the normal lifetime of standard ICE tires.
  - gambiting 3y ago
    >>EVs are also heavier. Like for like compared to the same model with an ICE drivetrain? Sure. But that doesn't mean that all EVs are heavy. Our Volkswagen e-Up is only 1200kg. Volskwagen ID.3 is 1740kg which I suppose is heavy, but a Diesel Golf 8 is nearly 1500kg, so the weight difference isn't that massive. And something like a Nissan Qashqai is 1700kg in a diesel, so if you swapped that for a new ID.3 you haven't bought a heavier car at all.
    - KingMob 3y ago
      We're talking about averages, here.
    - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
      > Our Volkswagen e-Up is only 1200kg. Compared to 997kg in en ICE version.
      - gambiting 3y ago
        200kg is not going to make any measurable difference in how long your tyres last. My other car, Volvo XC60 T8 is a PHEV and is 400kg(!!!!!!) heavier than the equivalent petrol-only model. Yet my first set of tyres lasted 30k miles - how much longer do people expect tyres to last?
jgilias 3y ago
Mine has a standard tire size. I just put on the winter set for the third season, and I’m pretty sure they’re going to last at least a season or two more. So, changing tires every 4-5 seasons? Exactly the same as I do for my ICE car. I do imagine that the thin tires they put on BMW i3s would last less. But for most people getting an EV now I can’t see how increased tire wear would be a practical problem. And I do drive dynamically, let’s say. It’s just too fun not too.
TexanFeller 3y ago
I don't see how oil changes is an EV selling point at all. Modern ICE cars ask for them every 7-10k miles. If I go to one of the extortionate places like Jiffy Lube it's still only $75 and half an hour of my time every year or two.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  I’d just rather not do it at all. I also enjoy charging at work for free. We only pay to charge on road trips. It’s been a massive savings in fuel cost for us.

gmac 3y ago

This wholly depends on your use case. Most of my miles are done on long journeys. I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home. UK charging infrastructure seems pretty underdeveloped so far. My 2018 petrol car does 600 miles on a tank. The upshot of all that is that an EV would give me half the range at twice the cost, and a headache every time I needed to charge it. I really want EVs to get better, and I’m sure they will. But for now, they’re hugely inferior for me.

gambiting 3y ago
>>I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home I'm still waiting to hear how the government plans to solve this or incentivize private investment for this setup to work. Because yeah, if you live in UK and don't have a private drive then I have no idea how you're using an electric car, unless you literally have a Tesla and live right next to a supercharger(I know one person with that setup and it works fine for them, it's literally one 20 minute stop a week and they get enough charge to last them a week). >>Most of my miles are done on long journeys. Funnily enough, for that use case you should be ok-ish, as most motorway stops in the UK are now equipped with rapid chargers, so if you're just driving up and down the country you should be able to just charge when you stop for a break, and with modern EVs easily doing 200+ miles per charge this really shouldn't be an issue. The other thing is - you are an outlier if most of your driving is done on long journeys. Most people use their car to do a school run and commute to work, usually no more than 30-50 miles a day. If that's your setup(and you can charge at home), then EVs(and PHEVs to a large extent) are just a no brainer.
- throwaway68834 3y ago
  >Most people use their car to do a school run and commute to work, usually no more than 30-50 miles a day. I assume that to be true in most places, however, one has to consider that even those people occasionally make long distance travels. What happens if for whatever emergency I have drive 500 mi across the state, keep an ICE just in case? Hit the hay to wait for my car to recharge?
  - 3y ago

city41 3y ago

I still marvel that my pretty basic Kia Niro EV provides the quiet, smoothness and smooth power delivery that Rolls Royce has been trying to get out of their v12s for decades. And it gets it without even trying, it's just how electric motors are.

gambiting 3y ago
Yep, I have a Volvo PHEV and in EV mode it is smoother, quieter and just more luxurious experience than a Range Rover V8 that I used to have(and that was like pinnacle of luxury at the time).
nikster 3y ago
It's a new level. Kia, Hyundai (same company I think) are well situated. As are BMW, Mercedes, and obviously Tesla. But... Toyota? Nowhere to be seen, has some also-ran EVs in production. The old American carmakers - absent. VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing. The biggest carmakers in the world have a vested interest in keeping EVs off the market for as long as possible.
- fragmede 3y ago
  > The old American carmakers - absent. Ford F-150 electric Lightning truck has production issues, but it exists. Same with the Cadillac LYRIQ. VW's ID.4 is also all-electric. Tesla and the gigafactory has a head start on the critical component - batteries - but the rest of the industry has started to wake up.
- seszett 3y ago
  > VW - been talking about EVs for years but ... nothing. Well I think they're the third EV manufacturer in the world for 2023. BYD is first (I guess mostly in China), Tesla second and Stellantis (Peugeot, Fiat and some American brands I think) fourth. Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes (didn't even know they made EVs but apparently they do) Toyota and the other brands I'm reading about in these comments are all much further down the charts, so I'm not sure what to think. Maybe the American market is so different that most commenters here have a warped view of the actual EV market in the rest of the world

gambiting 3y ago

>>It's a shame EVs are not catching on I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively.

zhdc1 3y ago
> I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively. Marketshare growth is excellent. Car manufacturers and government regulators bet the farm on mass EV adoption. Current EVs and EV infrastructure haven't solved the range anxiety/charging issue yet. Suburban US, where most people own a garage, is an outlier. Waiting 10-15 years for prolific street-level infrastructure to be built out doesn't solve the fact that there are unsold EVs on dealer lots today. Of course, there are plenty of use cases where range anxiety simply isn't relevant. Ditto why marketshare is still growing and will likely continue to grow.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Is your comment just focused on the USA? Because in China/Europe, the migration to EVs are irreversible at this point.

akira2501 3y ago

The economy market currently appears to favor EVs for comfort, depending on whether weather is a factor where you live. This isn't saying very much, and an incorrect consumer focus is possibly the reason these manufacturers are having the difficulties they are.

arka2147483647 3y ago

I think the driving feel of toyota hybrid is actually closest to ev of ice cars, because of the smooth and gearless starting and stopping it does with its integrated electric motor. The change to ice on higher speed is also usually seamless. This being true in normal family car speeds. It lacks the acceleration of course.

nikster 3y ago

The better tech always wins in the end. It's a no-brainer. The problem with resistance of the existing auto industry is that if everyone buys EVs the big American carmakers go out of business. GM, Ford, etc have nothing, no technology to compete, their EVs are still crap, they are unable to catch up. So are many Japanese carmakers also BTW. I was recently in Hong Kong - a good 50% of cars there are EVs thanks to tax breaks - no taxes on EVs while other cars are heavily taxed, so that makes even high end EVs cheaper than mid range gas cars. I think I tried every single model EV using Uber, Mercedes, BMW, and Tesla primarily, they're all really great EVs, great cars, great range, great comfort, obviously insane acceleration. Just better cars. There's also a range of Chinese EVs coming up - didn't test I guess they are too rare to show up on Uber. American carmakers then spread all sorts of FUD about EVs such that my facebook feed is full of people who really believe EVs are worse for the environment than their exploding mineral oil machines. They hold back all development through propaganda, lawmaking, political influence, anything and everything they can do - because they can easily act like a mafia. They can't easily compete with the good EVs of the world. Or at all. Situation report complete.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

lm28469 3y ago

> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit. I'd buy a used $5k piece of shit over that any day. I'm as interested in cars as I am in hammers, as long as it gets me from a to b I absolutely don't give a shit. $30k is like 5+ years of saving for a lot of people, even in the west. That's a lot of money for a liability. For the price of a modern EV you can buy a flat in many region of the developed world too...

nsteel 3y ago
So the suggestion is to buy a flat near b instead? I can't think how else that comment is relevant.
- lm28469 3y ago
  All I'm saying is that when the HN crowd talk about "cheap" cars for the vast majority of people it's deep into the "will never be able to afford" price category. Even the shittiest EV you can get from Dacia is above most people budget, it does o-60mph in like 20 seconds and can't go faster than ~75mph
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    In the US, loans are commonly used to amortize costs over a period of time, allowing people to buy things even when they do not have the cash to pay the purchase price.
    - lm28469 3y ago
      Is this something I'm supposed to look at with envy ? My grand parents didn't have to get a loan to buy a basic cars, my parent neither, they were far from rich. But alas, now people get into debt for TVs and smartphones, so what do I know, I must be a boomer!
      - JohnFen 3y ago

zhdc1 3y ago

So yes and no. > ...and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it! If you have a home charging station. This immediately excludes a - very - large number of people in the EU and metropolitan US who live in multifamily housing or older towns and cities. > an electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage. What are we comparing? A Tesla Model 3 against most non-premium cars? Of course. An MG5 EV/Roewe EI5 against a BMW B48 or a Honda K20C1? Questionable. Let's not forget that there are plenty of fuel efficient 6 cylinder mild hybrid platforms that, quite frankly, compete very well with premium EVs. Range anxiety aside, are they necessarily better? Again, questionable, but the overall package that comes with an M340d or an A6 55TFSI is better than the equivalent Model 3/S (or even, imo, any of BMW or Audi's EVs).

revscat 3y ago
Climate change is a species-ending threat. Emissions caused by fossil fuels is a huge piece of that.
- zhdc1 3y ago
  > Climate change is a species-ending threat. Emissions caused by fossil fuels is a huge piece of that. It's not a species-ending threat (at least, to humans). That said, the realistic outlook for global warming is bad enough. EV is a technology in transition. It will get there. It's getting there. It's not "there" yet for every use case. Why? A large part isn't because of the technology, it's about population density. The countries that pollute the most also happen to have sub-par public transportation networks. Range anxiety isn't an issue when the default option for most people is light rail. The solution is likely going to come down to: 1. Urban planning. Car friendly zoning, building codes, minimum parking requirements, and other regulations are starting be reversed in the US. It's already happened across most of the EU. 2. Switch to low emissions electricity generation. Power plants are still the leading emitter, full stop. 3. EV adoption. My point above wasn't an argument against EVs as a technology, but a statement of fact that - as a technology in transition - it's not superior for all major use cases. This should change over the next couple of decades.

deepGem 3y ago

My read is that the sweet spot price for EV mass adoption is $15k with about just enough range to manage. Like a 200 mile range with extremely fast charging. A smaller battery that can charge in like 5-7 mins. The car can be a bit smaller, 0-60 in 6 or 7 seconds should be good enough. What this implies is that there needs a greater density of charging stations - which Tesla is anyway working on this. So in a Tesla super charger, if I can charge to 80% in 5 mins and get 150-160 mile range am good. Even if I don’t have a garage at home, this should work with appropriate alerting, routing etc. An electric car for the non-enthusiasts, for those who just need a car to get stuff done.

throwaway5959 3y ago
That’s just not realistic, there aren’t any ICE powered cars in the US that are $15k new.

michpoch 3y ago

> For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars. The core issue is that it's not the case for most people. If you can afford an EV, have a house with a garage where you can plug in the car - you're basically a corner case. The reality for most people in Europe: car should cost 5 - 10k EUR (used), 10 - 20k new, it'll be parked on the street and need to be practical both for driving in a city as well as for longer trips. We're still pretty far away from any of these goals. I imagine something like Skoda Enyaq, with 800 km - 1000 km of range, for 25 - 30'000 EUR max, with tax included (an equivalent to VW Golf Variant).

throwaway2037 3y ago
it'll be parked on the street Wait, "most" (most than 50%) of cars are parked on the street in Europe? Bollocks. I guess max 15-20%.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Unless there's been some EU-wide massive secret project to construct underground parkings under most existing buildings that I'm not aware of, then yeah, most. We don't really have US style suburbs, rural areas are a rounding error for this calculation, so that leaves us with urban areas. Garages in apartment buildings are a luxury, only some new developments have underground parking, so most cars stay either on building-adjacent open-air parking zones, or are parked on the street.
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  A claim which is very easy to gather information for. Just open google maps, satellite view, and look into any major European city. Given the known ~70% urbanisation of the EU, it seems feasible. From my own, anecdotal experience, I would say way more than most cars are parked outside. Most of the times a block away. Some annoying times, much farther.
- skrunch 3y ago
  Page 72 here: https://publications.europa.eu/resource/cellar/2d5d968f-4f4c-4ee0-82e2-a7a136dfd187.0001.02/DOC_1 https://publications.europa.eu/resource/cellar/2d5d968f-4f4c... 45-55% in most countries (France seems like an outlier), but even that is above 20%.

rmbyrro 3y ago

It seems your personal preference isn't the prevalent preference of the market, yet. Most car buyers have a different mindset. Your rationale doesn't resonate with them. A good amount of them actually enjoy what you described as "garbage". They don't hear "loud" noises, they hear a pleasant sound.

Panzer04 3y ago
I don't think most people care. However, EVs still tend to mid-range or higher prices, and still don't have much of a used market at reasonable prices. You can judge preferences better when a run of the mill EV can be had in running condition for a reasonable used price (5-10k)
asimovfan 3y ago
Definitely not most, especially not anyone who has to deal with traffic, exhaust gas etc every day in bigger cities where "most" are.

spacecadet 3y ago

Im the same. Even own a classic car that I rarely drive and have plans to convert to electric once the right kit is available. But these people clinging to ICE because... so many bad reasons. Basically manufacturing consent.

toddmorey 3y ago

The EV market is in a strange spot. Tesla knows how to make an amazing battery electric powertrain & software experience but struggles to make the rest of the car. (I rented a low-end ICE Mazda and the interior build quality was sooo much better than our Tesla. A few generations beyond.) Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. The initial offerings from Toyota & Mazda have been terrible. I am surprised that the Ford Lightning hasn't done better. It's a great truck, that can't seem to compete with itself (cheaper gasoline versions). I'll be curious to see how the electric Escalade does. That thing looks incredible and I think is the right brand / market for a premium SUV.

rad_gruchalski 3y ago
> Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. You mean traditional American automakers? I can see a few compelling electric cars from European manufacturers.

jeo123 3y ago

That is your perspective driving like shit. A lot of people I know still uses the manual gearbox to give them the "car feel". Some dknt even want power steering because they like to wrestle with the car during turn.

roland35 3y ago

Good luck finding a Toyota hybrid, it's shocking just how little inventory they have. I absolutely love my plug in hybrid - but they are just so hard to actually purchase right now, and the economics don't make sense when you have dealers selling them at a huge markup.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

I would love to own an EV, but even as a well-to-do middle income, they're just.so.expensive right now! And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-( I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner. They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.

throwaway2037 3y ago
Tesla Model 3 in California costs about 25,000 USD after gov't rebates. Is this really too "just.so.expensive"?
- NikolaNovak 3y ago
  Tesla model 3 is 54k CAD officially. I've heard rumours of people being able to buy it that price but never met an actual person or even heard of a cousins best friend who did. Cheapest anybody has been able to get it that I'm aware of is 60ish K CAD, plus usual stuff (taxes delivery etc). That's... A lot of money for a car. We just bought a nice 5 door hatchback for 19kcad (25k cad all in) . It's not a comparable car on any granular metric, but it's a car! It takes me places! At literally one Third the price. If I want to go for fun, I can get a wrx for 35k or gti for 40. If I want a practical car I can get a minivan for 40k or any number of (ugh) SUVs. Tesla 3 on the other hand is a luxury, not a practical choice. It'll never ever ever pay off on cost/economy basis. And that's ok! Luxury cars exist and are great,for those who want and can afford them. It may be fun and enjoyable and status symbol, but it's the Apple of cars. Some people are into it while many of us balk at the value proposition (or perceived lack thereof). So yes - it's just. So. Expensive! For me at least, when I look at other options and alternatives :). edit/addition: Same is the case for most other EVs. Nissan Leaf starts at 42k CAD, Mazda 3 starts at 24k CAD. Ioniq 5 starts at 51K CAD, VW Taos starts at 30k. Basically, EVs are $12k - $25k more than ICE cars, where I'm at. And $12K is a lot of money! That's how much whole cars used to cost as recently as 3 years ago (and you can still get a brand new car for $15k though you probably shouldn't:). Again, it's a bit of HN bubble, or possibly California special circumstances, where Tesla can even begin to be discussed as an affordable :-/

subpixel 3y ago

My RAV4 Prime gets 50 miles to the charge and has a gas tank for everything else. FFS if it got 100 miles to the charge it would be the perfect EV for most daily driver scenarios. Also, the number of people who can’t charge in their own yard or driveway or garage is significant. I would never, ever drive am EV without my own plug at home.

loudmax 3y ago

> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit. I'm absolutely happy with my plug-in Prius. I have a short commute, and it gets me to work and back on a single charge. Every now and then when I need to go for a longer drive, I'll switch to gas which has a range of hundreds of miles. I charge it at home and I fill the tank about three or four times a year. The car definitely drives differently in the two modes. It's no Tesla, but electric acceleration is much more responsive and faster than a traditional sedan, like a Corolla or a Civic. Driving in gas mode feels like driving a Prius. If it fits your needs, I recommend looking into plug-in hybrids. But I'm no car enthusiast. My car is functional, not a status symbol.

MrMan 3y ago

[dead]

scruple 3y ago

I'd love an EV but I've got 3 kids in car seats. As far as I know, only Rivian is making something that would work for our needs and I'm not paying $85,000 for it.

textbookrental 3y ago

Maybe your next car will run on smugness.

kjkjadksj 3y ago

>drives like shit. We are in the era where the super cars I grew up with are handily lapped by a honda accord. Driving has never been better than right now.

delfinom 3y ago

> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit. Modern Hybrids (not Priuses) drive like normal cars. >than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today I have a 181HP Honda Civic with said turbo 4cyl, it's not noisy and is quieter than my original v6 Accord. A little less power (30HP less) but the fuel economy is insane, I average 40 MPG sitting in NYC traffic for 2 hours. 35 MPG on my normal commutes. These small engines are fine, the problem is what automakers do with them.

perryizgr8 3y ago

Conventional petrol/diesel cars are way better for most people. I don't want an insane 0-60 time, my corolla is fast enough. More importantly, ICE cars have attained an incredible level of reliability. Honestly this type of robustness is rarely found in any other consumer class equipment. On top of that, I can (and have) jump into my car with a close to empty fuel tank, and go on a 1000 km journey without worrying about how and when I'll fill up. EVs don't have that, because even if your route has a lot of public chargers, it will still take you way longer to charge up. Edit: I'm not saying EVs are unreliable, just that I'm not gonna pay cash to be part of that experiment. I'll get in once the technology has proven itself.