10 ms·
Interestingly, FTX made a $500 million USD investment in Anthropic; supposedly, this was made while Anthropic was valued at $4.6 billion (unconfirmed). Now, Ant
by gzer0 3y ago
Interestingly, FTX made a $500 million USD investment in Anthropic; supposedly, this was made while Anthropic was valued at $4.6 billion (unconfirmed). Now, Anthropic is nearing $30 billion.
Anyone know the latest on this? Is FTX going to sell that stake off to pay back the debts?
[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/sam-bankman-frieds-anthropic-stake-wholly-irrelevant-prosecutors-2023-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/sam-bankman-frieds-anthropic...
- wmf 3y agoIt's being debated in the bankruptcy court. Some creditors want to sell it off and others want to let it ride. Because this is crypto, some people want to issue a crypto token that represents claims on the estate.
- moralestapia 3y ago>some people want to issue a crypto token that represents claims on the estate What could possibly go wrong? :D
- dsr_ 3y agoObviously they should divide it into a low-risk low-return tranche and a high-risk high-return tranche and market two tokens, with an LLM informed of the rules providing final arbitrage.
- moralestapia 3y ago"It can't literally go tits up"
- arcticbull 3y agoThe Legend of 1r0nyman
- dougSF70 3y agoBinance has offered to list it on their exchange.
- actionfromafar 3y agoHilarious! The drama doesn’t end.
- kevinventullo 3y agoI just want a token that represents a claim on the movie rights.
- kylebenzle 3y agoInterestingly its specifically illegal to trade movie futures so a securitized token would not be allowed. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_Futures_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_Futures_Act
- Scoundreller 3y agoWhat if it was based in the Bahamas?
- cmcaleer 3y agoThe onion stuff sounds bad but movie futures sound fine? Wouldn't it be good for studios to be able to hedge? I'm a little confused as to what the instrument is actually for, were it not for this law could I, like, short The Marvels?
- kylebenzle 3y agoIt would be horrible and too easy to manipulate, think a fighter taking a dive. Say the Marvels is coming out, Brie Larson knows everyone hates her and she's a bad actor so it will probably flop. Brie takes out a $10 million short on her own movie. Now she has an incentive to be horrible so she acts EXTRA bad and treats people even worse than usual to be sure it flops.
- kevinventullo 3y agoIs this any different than the incentives set up by conventional publicly listed companies? Like a CEO in principle could “take a dive” but their compensation discourages that.
- 3y ago
- aorloff 3y agoAnd they say wit is dead
- worik 3y ago...it was homicide
- spacecadet 3y agoI snorted
- gzer0 3y agoNaturally, we'll need to tokenize the risk tranche, leverage a decentralized finance protocol to auto-balance the portfolio, and have an AI-powered DAO govern the arbitrage, ensuring our digital assets stay liquid.
- SantalBlush 3y agoThat extra computation will put more strain on the energy grid, but that's a good thing, because it will solve climate change.
- loopdoend 3y agoFew
- mjburgess 3y agowhat disappoints me about this comment is how many of my well-educated non-tech friends would regard the number of technical terms here as a sign that it's a well-researched idea
- RugnirViking 3y agothats also the kind of feedback I get in teachings from buisness advidors around pitching. "We need to see a little more proof you have credentials to pull off this idea. When we were talking last week you mentioned some technical terms, put a few of those in"
- f4c39012 3y agoIs that in 3D?
- arthurcolle 3y agoI'd like to subscribe to your newsletter
- hanniabu 3y agoIf RWAs were adopted and the tokens were non-custodial then not much. The issue with FTX is it was a centralized company and all funds were fully custodial. And while all this was happening SBF was buddy buddy with Gary Gensler. Aka it was a tradfi problem, not a crypto problem.
- singleshot_ 3y agoWould you please explain why it matters that the "funds" were fully custodial?
- throwaway98797 3y agonot your keys, not your crypto but it’s a moot point because centralized exchanges like coinbase offer a valuable service of solving a lot of the issues with crypto ux
- adolph 3y ago/solv/hid/
- junofan 3y agoMy understanding is the stolen money was fiat from the “fiat@“ account routed through Silvergate Bank.
- dboreham 3y agoCustomers sent real money to FTX expecting FTX to buy some coin and hold it on their behalf (because managing that properly themselves is out of scope for regular folks). So now the coin is defacto owned by FTX, not the customer. Similar to what does not happen when you buy ATT stock in your Schwab account.
- AlotOfReading 3y agoThat's very similar to what happens with stocks. When you buy a stock, it's Cede & co who actually own the physical certificates that transfer rights. There's a complicated web of contractual obligations between them and other DTCC companies that exists to give you essentially the same rights as if you were a true stockholder, but it's all being done "on your behalf" in a legal sense.
- CobrastanJorji 3y agoI think this is a terrible idea, but I fully endorse it because of the chance that it could hilariously result in FTX investors losing the same money twice.
- gamblor956 3y agoSpoiler alert: it will be sold off to satisfy the debts of the bankrupt corporation. That's SOP for bankruptcy court, and it would take an extremely persuasive case to convince the court to do otherwise.
- nl 3y agoIt's unclear there are buyers for this amount of private shares at the market price. It's one thing for Google etc to invest billions in cash and cloud services[1] into Anthropic with the understanding that money will be used for engineering and growth. It's quite different for any buyer to come in and spend $4B on the secondary market for nothing but shares, with none of that money going to Anthropic. There is a large appetite for exposure to the big AI companies, so maybe the demand is there. But it's not as simple as selling a large stock holding on the public market. [1] https://www.axios.com/2023/10/30/google-invests-2-billion-anthropic-openai https://www.axios.com/2023/10/30/google-invests-2-billion-an...
- kawhah 3y agoThere's a buyer for everything at the right price. There are tons of big private equity funds and several trillion-dollar fund managers for which buying a 10% stake of a privately held 30 billion dollar startup would just be a question of some paperwork.
- quickthrower2 3y agoMaybe. It is not liquid like stocks though. They'll probably try to auction it off?
- AdamN 3y agoIf there's a way to sell it at a fair price, yes. Otherwise, they have a fiduciary responsibility to hold it until a buyer can be found to pay a fair price. They won't hold it just to let it ride though - that's correct. IANAL :-)
- chii 3y agoi dont get why the shares in the investment isn't just divvied up to each individual investor, and let them make a choice to sell or not. And if there's transaction costs involved in selling small amounts, it could be aggregated before divving up, and those who wants to sell can collectively sell and save on costs.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoThe shares may not be transferrable, or some investors may not want to go to the trouble.
- CydeWeys 3y agoAnthropic isn't publicly traded yet so it can't have too many investors.
- dchftcs 3y agoHolders can still band together as a single pot, like a fund which can count as only one investor. This sounds like a loophole, and now that I think if it it probably is - VCs and stuff should not have been allowed to ask for money from pension funds without imposing at least some rules normally applied to public companies.
- echelon 3y agoAnd now there are startups where you can place bids on private market stock without being a qualified investor or pushing the company into a spot where it has to go public.
- Schnitz 3y agoAnthropic doesn’t want dozens (hundreds?) of disgruntled creditors on their cap table and there might be provisions preventing such a transfer.
- xirdstl 3y agoWith, of course, the minters of that coin taking the majority of the claims /s
- rideontime 3y agoThat reminds me, it's been nearly two months now since we heard from either Kyle Davies or Zhu Su...
- wmf 3y agoThey ghosted their own creditors but somehow found the time to be interviewed for the new Bloomberg crypto documentary.
- resolutebat 3y agoZhu Su was arrested in Singapore about a month ago. Davies remains on the run.
- tombert 3y agoSo, effectively, some kind of "FTX Crypto-themed ETF"?
- manonthewall 3y agoI'll create a new crypto token for them for 5% of the net worth. Give me a call FTX administrators.
- P_I_Staker 3y agoFuckin' cryptobros, ROFL
- coffeebeqn 3y agoI wonder how that works. It’s still private so would they have an auction or something?
- bibabaloo 3y agoLooking online I see reports that FTX owes its creditors $3B. If Anthropic has 6.5x then the initial $500 million is now worth $3.25B. Is it actually possible that all creditors will get their money back? Pretty crazy if so.
- brucethemoose2 3y agoIn a slightly different universe, the literally criminal risk might have worked a little longer. Then again, GenAI perhaps undermines the notion of NFTs and "digital art/assets as valuable fungible commodities." It was really wierd seeing Stable Diffusion take off as NFTs were collapsing... so maybe there is no universe where FTX fakes it until they make it.
- PretzelPirate 3y agoKeep in mind that "NFTs representing digital art" are a subset of what NFTs are. GenAI might have impacted art tokens, but wouldn't affect NFTs as a whole.
- godzillabrennus 3y agoThat’s right, NFT’s are a tool for low talent charlatans to grift at scale off of laypeople by claiming they will make money buying them. The digital art was just one such con.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y agoThe concept of NFTs for art is pretty new. I first heard about the idea of NFTs in 2013 and that was using them for things like deeds to land and vehicles.
- simonw 3y ago... which remains a terrible idea, because what happens to your land or vehicle if you lose your keys / forget your pass phrase? Or if someone else phishes you?
- yterdy 3y agoHow convenient.
- hrunt 3y agoIn fact, there's a significant market right now for purchasing FTX claims precisely because of this Anthropic investment. The bet is that you can buy the FTX claim for 35 or 40 cents on the dollar, and get 75 or 80 cents on the dollar if the Anthropic value gets unlocked during the bankruptcy process.
- swyx 3y agocould you show us how to look up this info? its fascinating and as a financially savvy trader i'm surprised i was never taught this in business school
- snypher 3y agoThere are places like this; https://www.x-claim.com/marketplace/how-it-works https://www.x-claim.com/marketplace/how-it-works
- Scoundreller 3y agoBuying a creditor’s claim is nothing new. But they’re usually a bad deal for the unfortunate creditor in a bankruptcy unless you absolutely positively need liquid cash immediately. Or have some non-public info that suggests the claims buyer is way overvaluing things. General advice is to let your claim ride. FTX’s bankruptcy filings are full of entries about transfers of creditor claims by some random hedge funds.
- sjducb 3y agoI let my mtgox claim ride and regret it. I could have sold the claim in 2015, bought bitcoin and had far more cash now. The payout will probably come in the next 10 years or so. The problem with letting a cryptocurrency bankruptcy ride is that there isn’t much case law, so before you get paid loads of legal questions have to be settled which can take decades. If you have an FTX claim then sell it, take the cash and move on.
- Scoundreller 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- caturopath 3y agoThey're going through normal bankruptcy stuff and may liquidate the Anthropic stake. It looks at this point like there's likely going to be money enough to pay all creditors, which is just hilarious.
- quickthrower2 3y agoSmart investor that Sam! I guess the new bubble pays off the old one.
- StressedDev 3y agoHow do you know FTX only lost 3-4 billion?
- helsinkiandrew 3y agoIf I were SBF’s lawyer I’d be trying to delay sentencing until Anthropic goes public or gets bought for as much as possible.
- kvathupo 3y agoEven more interestingly, Anthropic isn't traditionally structured: it's a Long-Term Benefit Trust [1]. That's not say shares can't be sold, but, rather, shareholders have very little governance rights. Debatable whether this is good, e.g. Meta's success being tied to Zuck's large holdings. On the other hand, you have WeWork. [1] - https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23794855/anthropic-ai-openai-claude-2 https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23794855/anthropic-ai-ope...
- _giorgio_ 3y agoSo, if you count this, and if you count all the money that has been recovered, he didn't actually steal anything... I mean that, all considered, there is more money now than when he started the company.