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How much cheaper are RISC-V chips in reality? I get there might be a saving for not having to pay ARM a royalty of some kind, but are RISC-V chips cheaper in p

How much cheaper are RISC-V chips in reality? I get there might be a saving for not having to pay ARM a royalty of some kind, but are RISC-V chips cheaper in practice as a result? I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the arm royalties per chip were really small.

hajile 3y ago
SiFive would practically give away their latest P870 cores (close to A78 performance levels) to get them shipping by the millions in the Pi because of the free advertising, free exposure, and massive boost it would give to the development of the RISC-V ecosystem. Once such a switch was made, Pi could even consider using free and open source cores for their low-end devices where margins are slim (an area where RISC-V has already been gaining ground rapidly).
- NewJazz 3y ago
  Where can I buy one of these p870 cores and how much do they typically cost? (Or boards containing them?) These are the newest OoO cores with full 1.0 vector extensions, right?
  - camel-cdr 3y ago
    As a normal consumer you can't. But the predecessor P670 should be available in the SG2380 board in 2024Q3 [0]. It will have 16 P670 and 8 X280 cores, and will cost $120 to $200 (without included RAM). [0] https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/359 https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/3...
  - snvzz 3y ago
    >P870 These cores have just been announced, and are available for licensing. You can contact SiFive if you're interested. If what you want is hardware somebody's already made, that's going to take 2-3 years as per tradition. >These are the newest OoO cores with full 1.0 vector extensions, right? Yes, but so are multiple generations of predecessors. It seems that hardware based on P670[0] and X280[1] (both match that description) will be available for purchase in less than 10 months from now[2]. 0. https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/7be0420e-dac1-4558-85bc-50c7a10787e7_p600_datasheet.pdf https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/7be0420e-dac1-4558-85bc... 1. https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/9405d3d0-35a1-4680-a259-7a5598d1ecb2_sifive-intelligence-x200-datasheet.pdf https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/9405d3d0-35a1-4680-a259... 2. https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/359 https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/3...
repelsteeltje 3y ago
Not sure, but really small royalties on $4 computers can still be accumulate. They may also prevent $4 computers turning into $1 computers even if huge volumes would call for this otherwise. Moreover, those royalties put fences on what might otherwise be more open and collaborative. It would be sad, if the tinkering goals set out originally by Raspberry Pi were curtailed by ISA license restrictions. RISC-V inherently has an edge over ARM in that dimension.
lallysingh 3y ago
I think a lot of the motivation here is to avoid RPI leading to further interest and development on the RISC-V side. SIFIVE may be willing to make something perfect for the RPI, but the real risk is if RPI goes RISC-V, then software gets ported and tested on RISC-V. People start liking it and hacking it. And then RISC-V suddenly gets a lot more interest from ARM licensees and their competitors. Which, at the very least, will lead to higher licensee leverage in negotiations with ARM on renewal.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Bingo. This is what they mean by "strategic investment." It's not because they are just lovers of the education and maker market. They'd be negligent to their shareholders to not make this investment.
- snvzz 3y ago
  >but the real risk is if RPI goes RISC-V, then software gets ported and tested on RISC-V. It's already happening. RISC-V doesn't need the Raspberry Pi. Yet it would indeed be an accelerator, but I'm not sure how big. ARM are certainly very afraid.
monocasa 3y ago
For "coming down the pipeline" they're essentially free. Today, the c910 is an Apache 2, hardware proven out of order core on GitHub here https://github.com/T-head-Semi/openc910 https://github.com/T-head-Semi/openc910 a little slower than an RPi3's core.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  What’s the price per unit?
  - monocasa 3y ago
    There are no license fees if that's what you're asking. Additionally it's very competitive in PPA metrics for it's gate count, so cheaper than similar cores in terms of wafer area as well.
    - rcxdude 3y ago
      I think the point is, very few people are looking to buy some RTL, they want the silicon. So the question is what's the price of the silicon? My understanding is anything comparable to the SoC in the RPi boards is still quite a lot pricier.
      - monocasa 3y ago
        Pretty damn cheap. https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805346421328.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805346421328.html?gateway...
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        Every other place seems to claim that the RRP is $119. So this must be a mistake/scam? Or did the price go down this much?
deelowe 3y ago
Regardless of cost, working with almost anyone other than broadcom would probably be seen as a huge plus as well.
siffland 3y ago
I think one of the biggest fears from ARM would be the popularity of the Raspberry Pi and their community. There are better boards than the Raspberry Pi (strictly speaking specifications here). I took that path of playing with a lot of alternative boards, my biggest issue is lack of support, some boards had kernels never updated, etc...(YMMV). If Raspberry Pi released a RISC-V board I have no reason to believe the community would not be just as strong. Sure in the beginning they would support both, but eventually the ARM support would wither.
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  Is Raspberry Pi really that big for ARM?
  - dacryn 3y ago
    for hobbyists yes. Usually people stick to the technology they first started experimenting with, and RPi is that platform for many future experts. If you are going to learn computer architecture, you will learn something cheap you have on hand
    - chx 3y ago
      I ... do not know. The Amiga 500 didn't make people stick to the m68k. They went IBM PC as did everyone else.
      - liotier 3y ago
        And they are still bitter about it !
    - tjoff 3y ago
      The technology is linux, gpios etc. not which instruction set the CPU has. That is completely irrelevant and raspberry switching to USB-C is a much bigger change from a user standpoint than switching to RISC-V would be. Assuming performance and software support is comparable. Which obviously won't be the case for a long long time. But there are few things as irrelevant as the CPU instruction set. (Part from specific extensions, like AES support enabling quick crypto etc.)
IshKebab 3y ago
Good question. I looked it up and apparently the royalties are around 2% of the price of the chip, so it probably won't make a huge difference. They do also charge an up front "membership fee" which seems to vary from $200k to $10m depending on the chip. RISC-V is very very popular already, but most RISC-V cores are not user accessible. They're controllers in hard drives, embedded management cores in SoCs, etc. Definitely nice to not have to pay for licensing that, and verification doesn't matter so much since you are more likely to be able to work around bugs in software. I suspect it won't make a huge difference to visible CPUs. Probably the biggest impact will be flexibility.
Zenst 3y ago
A tougher question as so many factors that I hope Asianometry on YouTube cover one day. Whilst the RISC-V instruction set is free from licence/patent fees, the design of those chips will be made by a company that will need to recover costs, so there will be a cost. Compared to ARM who already offer up free core designs for use for free like the cortex-m0 and others. I know the Raspberry PICO uses a cortex-m0x. Though, many do seem to blur the lines between the instruction set and the core design you get in the chip you buy. Over time, but that will be when you get open-source RISC-V chips that compete with the designs of the market offerings other companies make and sell. Which as a mindset may cause the evolution of RISC-V issues as people could get burned due to expectations exceeding the reality and finding the get what you pay for those to still hold stronger than envisioned. Yes, eventually open-source CPU cores will get there, but production costs and scale will still become a factor, as to many aspects that all add up to the final cost. This is even on a level of software stack tried and fully robust of equality, which is still behind ARM. ARM may well kill off x86 as a mainstream before RISC-V fully bites it. Look at how long ARM took to get where it is, and started with microcontrollers, used in many things. That is where RISC-V will and is starting to get traction, but scaling beyond that, whilst could be faster than ARM's history, it's not as clear-cut as many foresee.
- wombatfodder 3y ago
  ARM did not start with microcontrollers - it started with desktop CPUs. In fact, it was a very long time before it got to microcontrollers!
nerpderp82 3y ago
Cheaper is not even the primary reason to use RISC-V over Arm. The ability to modify the design for your application and be able to apply a plethora of cores where they are needed at only the cost of silicon area. Apple has been moving their management cores on their M-series parts from Arm to RV and they have an architectural license. Everyone has an architectural license for RISC-V, you can add your own instructions, change the mix of available instructions. A whole parametric RV32 or RV64 will be available on every node at every fab. This move by Arm is absolutely to block RPI from moving to RISC-V. They have mindshare and distribution.
- ngcc_hk 3y ago
  Other than geopolitical and totalitarianism concerns, is that a good and bad thing that let you freely change your instruction … implementing no charge I understand, but everyone has their own architecture … Art is not just about no limit, but what you do with the limitation including illuminating there is a limit. Not just about beyond it but of course you could.

hajile 3y ago

SiFive would practically give away their latest P870 cores (close to A78 performance levels) to get them shipping by the millions in the Pi because of the free advertising, free exposure, and massive boost it would give to the development of the RISC-V ecosystem. Once such a switch was made, Pi could even consider using free and open source cores for their low-end devices where margins are slim (an area where RISC-V has already been gaining ground rapidly).

NewJazz 3y ago
Where can I buy one of these p870 cores and how much do they typically cost? (Or boards containing them?) These are the newest OoO cores with full 1.0 vector extensions, right?
- camel-cdr 3y ago
  As a normal consumer you can't. But the predecessor P670 should be available in the SG2380 board in 2024Q3 [0]. It will have 16 P670 and 8 X280 cores, and will cost $120 to $200 (without included RAM). [0] https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/359 https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/3...
- snvzz 3y ago
  >P870 These cores have just been announced, and are available for licensing. You can contact SiFive if you're interested. If what you want is hardware somebody's already made, that's going to take 2-3 years as per tradition. >These are the newest OoO cores with full 1.0 vector extensions, right? Yes, but so are multiple generations of predecessors. It seems that hardware based on P670[0] and X280[1] (both match that description) will be available for purchase in less than 10 months from now[2]. 0. https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/7be0420e-dac1-4558-85bc-50c7a10787e7_p600_datasheet.pdf https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/7be0420e-dac1-4558-85bc... 1. https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/9405d3d0-35a1-4680-a259-7a5598d1ecb2_sifive-intelligence-x200-datasheet.pdf https://sifive.cdn.prismic.io/sifive/9405d3d0-35a1-4680-a259... 2. https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/359 https://forum.sophgo.com/t/about-the-sg2380-oasis-category/3...

repelsteeltje 3y ago

Not sure, but really small royalties on $4 computers can still be accumulate. They may also prevent $4 computers turning into $1 computers even if huge volumes would call for this otherwise. Moreover, those royalties put fences on what might otherwise be more open and collaborative. It would be sad, if the tinkering goals set out originally by Raspberry Pi were curtailed by ISA license restrictions. RISC-V inherently has an edge over ARM in that dimension.

lallysingh 3y ago

I think a lot of the motivation here is to avoid RPI leading to further interest and development on the RISC-V side. SIFIVE may be willing to make something perfect for the RPI, but the real risk is if RPI goes RISC-V, then software gets ported and tested on RISC-V. People start liking it and hacking it. And then RISC-V suddenly gets a lot more interest from ARM licensees and their competitors. Which, at the very least, will lead to higher licensee leverage in negotiations with ARM on renewal.

freedomben 3y ago
Bingo. This is what they mean by "strategic investment." It's not because they are just lovers of the education and maker market. They'd be negligent to their shareholders to not make this investment.
snvzz 3y ago
>but the real risk is if RPI goes RISC-V, then software gets ported and tested on RISC-V. It's already happening. RISC-V doesn't need the Raspberry Pi. Yet it would indeed be an accelerator, but I'm not sure how big. ARM are certainly very afraid.

monocasa 3y ago

For "coming down the pipeline" they're essentially free. Today, the c910 is an Apache 2, hardware proven out of order core on GitHub here https://github.com/T-head-Semi/openc910 https://github.com/T-head-Semi/openc910 a little slower than an RPi3's core.

ffgjgf1 3y ago
What’s the price per unit?
- monocasa 3y ago
  There are no license fees if that's what you're asking. Additionally it's very competitive in PPA metrics for it's gate count, so cheaper than similar cores in terms of wafer area as well.
  - rcxdude 3y ago
    I think the point is, very few people are looking to buy some RTL, they want the silicon. So the question is what's the price of the silicon? My understanding is anything comparable to the SoC in the RPi boards is still quite a lot pricier.
    - monocasa 3y ago
      Pretty damn cheap. https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805346421328.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805346421328.html?gateway...
      - ffgjgf1 3y ago
        Every other place seems to claim that the RRP is $119. So this must be a mistake/scam? Or did the price go down this much?

deelowe 3y ago

Regardless of cost, working with almost anyone other than broadcom would probably be seen as a huge plus as well.

siffland 3y ago

I think one of the biggest fears from ARM would be the popularity of the Raspberry Pi and their community. There are better boards than the Raspberry Pi (strictly speaking specifications here). I took that path of playing with a lot of alternative boards, my biggest issue is lack of support, some boards had kernels never updated, etc...(YMMV). If Raspberry Pi released a RISC-V board I have no reason to believe the community would not be just as strong. Sure in the beginning they would support both, but eventually the ARM support would wither.

LeafItAlone 3y ago
Is Raspberry Pi really that big for ARM?
- dacryn 3y ago
  for hobbyists yes. Usually people stick to the technology they first started experimenting with, and RPi is that platform for many future experts. If you are going to learn computer architecture, you will learn something cheap you have on hand
  - chx 3y ago
    I ... do not know. The Amiga 500 didn't make people stick to the m68k. They went IBM PC as did everyone else.
    - liotier 3y ago
      And they are still bitter about it !
  - tjoff 3y ago
    The technology is linux, gpios etc. not which instruction set the CPU has. That is completely irrelevant and raspberry switching to USB-C is a much bigger change from a user standpoint than switching to RISC-V would be. Assuming performance and software support is comparable. Which obviously won't be the case for a long long time. But there are few things as irrelevant as the CPU instruction set. (Part from specific extensions, like AES support enabling quick crypto etc.)

IshKebab 3y ago

Good question. I looked it up and apparently the royalties are around 2% of the price of the chip, so it probably won't make a huge difference. They do also charge an up front "membership fee" which seems to vary from $200k to $10m depending on the chip. RISC-V is very very popular already, but most RISC-V cores are not user accessible. They're controllers in hard drives, embedded management cores in SoCs, etc. Definitely nice to not have to pay for licensing that, and verification doesn't matter so much since you are more likely to be able to work around bugs in software. I suspect it won't make a huge difference to visible CPUs. Probably the biggest impact will be flexibility.

Zenst 3y ago

A tougher question as so many factors that I hope Asianometry on YouTube cover one day. Whilst the RISC-V instruction set is free from licence/patent fees, the design of those chips will be made by a company that will need to recover costs, so there will be a cost. Compared to ARM who already offer up free core designs for use for free like the cortex-m0 and others. I know the Raspberry PICO uses a cortex-m0x. Though, many do seem to blur the lines between the instruction set and the core design you get in the chip you buy. Over time, but that will be when you get open-source RISC-V chips that compete with the designs of the market offerings other companies make and sell. Which as a mindset may cause the evolution of RISC-V issues as people could get burned due to expectations exceeding the reality and finding the get what you pay for those to still hold stronger than envisioned. Yes, eventually open-source CPU cores will get there, but production costs and scale will still become a factor, as to many aspects that all add up to the final cost. This is even on a level of software stack tried and fully robust of equality, which is still behind ARM. ARM may well kill off x86 as a mainstream before RISC-V fully bites it. Look at how long ARM took to get where it is, and started with microcontrollers, used in many things. That is where RISC-V will and is starting to get traction, but scaling beyond that, whilst could be faster than ARM's history, it's not as clear-cut as many foresee.

wombatfodder 3y ago
ARM did not start with microcontrollers - it started with desktop CPUs. In fact, it was a very long time before it got to microcontrollers!

nerpderp82 3y ago

Cheaper is not even the primary reason to use RISC-V over Arm. The ability to modify the design for your application and be able to apply a plethora of cores where they are needed at only the cost of silicon area. Apple has been moving their management cores on their M-series parts from Arm to RV and they have an architectural license. Everyone has an architectural license for RISC-V, you can add your own instructions, change the mix of available instructions. A whole parametric RV32 or RV64 will be available on every node at every fab. This move by Arm is absolutely to block RPI from moving to RISC-V. They have mindshare and distribution.

ngcc_hk 3y ago
Other than geopolitical and totalitarianism concerns, is that a good and bad thing that let you freely change your instruction … implementing no charge I understand, but everyone has their own architecture … Art is not just about no limit, but what you do with the limitation including illuminating there is a limit. Not just about beyond it but of course you could.