11 ms·
Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population
- turminal 3y agoNo more Python parsing for those germans then...
- lawlessone 3y agoWould this explain, or partially explain, why some drugs can such varying efficacy across different populations?
- willy_k 3y agoI would think that metabolism is a clearer target considering the direct link between genetics and enzymes, not to say that your proposal isn’t still possible this just seems more proximate. That being said I’m not an expert at all and could be totally wrong.
- porphyra 3y agoFortunately, the Cootings machine did not develop any immunity against PEG-9.
- Aurornis 3y agoThe presence of antibodies isn’t as big of a signal as we once thought. There have been several companies developing antibody tests for various things, including your body’s own natural receptors. They have been appealing to people with chronic illnesses as an explanation for unexplained symptoms. For example, implying that if their tests show antibodies to certain receptors then that is a diagnostic clue. Then some researchers started using one of the company’s tests with a control group (healthy volunteers) and discovered that healthy people had the same antibodies at the same rates as the sick people. They couldn’t differentiate between the sick group and the healthy group at all by the presence of antibodies. So there’s a lot more to this than simply looking for antibodies to a substance. I don’t know enough about the topic to say exactly what that nuance might be, but after reading the research and talking to some experts in this field I don’t put much weight in simple binary analyses of antibodies.
- samus 3y agoThere are two considerable points here: 1) this is a simple molecule, not an organism that can react to the threat. As you said, it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect, but they probably have, else they likely wouldn't have been detected at all. 2) the blood samples were taken from patients. It would be interesting to evaluate blood samples from the population at large.
- Aurornis 3y ago> As you said, it would be interesting to be evaluate whether the antibodies actually have an effect, The article has a quote from the researchers about how the antibodies could remove a future PEG nanocarrier from the patients' system: > "The antibodies formed against PEG attach themselves to the coated nanocarriers, thus counteracting the effect that is actually desired: the nanocarrier becomes visible to the immune system and is removed before it can exert its effect," explains Katharina Landfester, director of the department. I don't know if there are other consequences outside of this. Having your body become good at removing a foreign substance doesn't sound like a bad thing, except in the case where you might want that foreign substance to help deliver a drug.
- epgui 3y agoPEG is used in so many biomedical applications, largely because of its favourable immunochemical properties-- that's precisely the concern.
- darkclouds 3y ago[dead]
- spondylosaurus 3y agoTo point (1), antibodies against non-alive substances are how you get things like allergies and autoimmune diseases. Your body goes "holy shit pollen!" and makes you break out in hives or "holy shit gluten!" and makes your guts inflamed. Not all the time, obviously, and it depends on the type of antibody.
- germandiago 3y agoOh no! PEG grammars no! Oh my Python!
- aksss 3y agoPEG is in vape cartridges as a solvent. I’ve read the rationalization that “food grade” PEG is probably safe there because doctors use PEG to help with organ transplants, but missing from such a simple analysis is that you end up breathing PEG into your lungs with a vape pen, certainly different than anything studied thus far with organ transplants. Can’t be good, man. I mean, like all our other exposure to low-grade toxicity, it won’t kill you by itself, but I’m not interested in being a beta tester for inhaled PEG. Anyway, maybe this is a more common route for PEG exposure besides Miralax.
- pvaldes 3y agoFootnote: PEG = polyethylene glycol in this context. So the study is related with people developing allergy to cosmetics and industrial products.
- w10-1 3y agoIt's also in candy and medicine (and antifreeze and ...)
- coryrc 3y agoRV anti-freeze, not the kind in your gas vehicle's radiator which is ethylene glycol.
- pvaldes 3y agoA interesting collateral effect is that Polyethylene Glycol is used to concentrate and catch viruses (adding common salt). Maybe it acts the same in the gutters and is seen as "a virus" by the immune system? Just a thought
- pengaru 3y agoIt's also the primary allergen contained within the MRNA COVID-19 vaccines AIUI.
- SergeAx 3y agoPEG here is polyethylene glycol. It is used as a laxative agent and also as a bulking agent for making other medications. I wish it was deciphered right in the headline.
- tjrgergw 3y ago> It has long been known that people can form defenses and thus antibodies against viruses. But antibodies can also develop against polyethylene glycol (PEG), a substance used in cosmetics, food and medicine. People can develop antibodies against things which are not foreign micro-organisms. TIL. (Obvious once you think about it. What you really develop antibodies to are proteins on the surface of micro-organisms) Well, talk about a worldview-changing moment.
- hwillis 3y ago> People can develop antibodies against things which are not foreign micro-organisms. TIL. Well yeah- that's how many (most?) resistance to toxins works. When you are given pit viper antivenom, it's literally a bunch of sheep antibodies that attach to the venom molecules and neutralize them and/or make them easier to get rid of. You do the same thing for novel toxins as you develop a tolerance to them. Alcohol and peroxide have specific enzymes that are produced to break them down, but the immune system is responsible for a ton of stuff. I am not an expert but I do know it's heinously complex- there are tons of different pathways that are activated by a combination of foreign substances and/or different types of cellular damage (not to mention location in the body). Anaphylactic allergies are controlled by different types of antibodies in different cells that react to different types of damage, normal allergies are a whole other thing, blood antibodies are yet another (multiple types!) of thing... Biologists are amazing. It seems like picking diamonds off the beach. The book documenting the (public) operation of a new CPU is 10k+ pages long, but a single mammalian cell (taking up <<.001% of the area) makes that CPU look like a joke.
- chpatrick 3y agoIsn't that what allergies are?
- HPsquared 3y agoIn other words, allergies.
- hwillis 3y agoYes but no. Allergies are a very particular reaction- you don't get allergy symptoms when you're sick. They're predominantly IgE (immunoglobulin E) which is a detector antibody rather than a neutralizing antibody (although those terms aren't really favored now). IgE activates a body response like anaphylaxis. The antibodies in this study are IgG (the "normal" antibody) and IgM. In this case, these antibodies latch onto and neutralize/clean up the antigen. They cause much less of an immune system activation, and can act like a passive defense. TL;DR: allergies are a subset of antibodies for substances, and in this case the antibodies found were non-allergenic.
- s5ma6n 3y agoApparently PEG is/was the one of the reasons of the severe allergic reactions in mRNA COVID-19 vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer)[0] That's plastics for you folks... [0]: [Translated from German](https://www-aerzteblatt-de.translate.goog/archiv/217236/COVID-19-Impfreaktionen-in-Grossbritannien-Anaphylaxie-in-der-Anamnese?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-aerzteblatt-de.translate.goog/archiv/217236/COVI...)
- orangepurple 3y agoYou're forgetting about Aluminum
- ekianjo 3y agoPEG is not plastics...
- s5ma6n 3y agoIt is a petroleum-based polymer, tomato vs tomato...
- hwillis 3y agoTons of common plastics are made from plants. PLA, the most common FDM 3d printing plastic, is made from corn. Ethylene in particular is also naturally occurring- it's one of the most important plant hormones. Plastic implies it is solid, which is wrong.
- freshpots 3y ago[flagged]
- kragen 3y agomany grades of peg are liquid at room temperature; the others are highly water-soluble. you've probably never seen an object manufactured from peg in your life. that's why people don't normally call it 'plastic'
- sigmar 3y ago
- unsupp0rted 3y agoHuh, I take PEG in (large?) quantities before colonoscopies.
- geraldhh 3y ago> colonoscopies the plural makes me curious; for medical reasons?
- unsupp0rted 3y agoI get a colonoscopy every n years. Where n is some number between 1 and 5, depending on whether they found polyps or something the previous time. It's not that onerous, except that I assume going under propofol + midazolam comes with cognitive risks each time, and this might be cumulative. With that in mind, no idea how the risk/reward math of regular endoscopy/colonoscopy checkups works out.
- ulnarkressty 3y ago> It's not that onerous, except that I assume going under propofol + midazolam comes with cognitive risks each time, and this might be cumulative. Do you have any sources for this? I'm also wary of going under, even if it's once every 3 years.
- appplication 3y agoHaving seen now 3 people die of colon cancer in their early 30s, I can see why early and frequent detection makes sense.
- andai 3y agoDamn... see any patterns, in lifestyle, diet etc?
- appplication 3y agoAll women, 2 had a child less than 2 years old. Two very healthy in diet exercise, one average health
- mensetmanusman 3y agoWhen I lived in Germany, I learned that one interesting, cultural aspect is that they don’t drink nearly as much tapwater as in America. This means everyone buys water in plastic containers at the grocery store, all this plastic is PET-based, and PEG is always present in small quantities in that water (because water is slightly acidic, and acids disassociate the PET molecule).
- kragen 3y agohow the fuck do you get peg from ethylene terephthalate
- yorwba 3y agoThe majority of Germans drinks tap water daily or almost daily: https://www.bwb.de/de/assets/downloads/twis-report.pdf https://www.bwb.de/de/assets/downloads/twis-report.pdf I think "everyone buys water in plastic containers" is a bit of an overestimate.
- danielbln 3y agoAs a German I find that to be a pretty wild generalization, especially comparing it to the US where tap water quality varies massively (Oregon vs say Michigan (Flint...)). German tap water tends to be quite good. I live in Berlin, where tap water is excellent (albeit with a lot of minerals/calcium). The vast majority of people I know drink tap water, sometimes filtered, sometimes with CO2 added, but tap water nontheless.
- Aurornis 3y ago> As a German I find that to be a pretty wild generalization Most generalizations that come from someone taking a short trip to another country are like this: Someone visits a foreign country, interacts with a couple dozen people in a small area, then projects that experience on to the entire country. I think almost everyone does it when they’re young and they first start traveling. It’s not until you’ve gained more exposure to the size and diversity of the world that you realize you can’t draw conclusions about entire countries from a couple of experienced.
- jcfrei 3y agoI wonder if the same also happens with Propylene glycol (PG)? Seems to be widely used in cosmetics as well but has a different molecular structure.
- huytersd 3y agoPG is also the base for the liquid used in e-cigarettes
- kragen 3y agono 'glycol' just means an organic molecule with two hydroxyl groups peg is a polymer of ethylene glycol (which monomer is, incidentally, deadly, while peg is generally considered nontoxic) certainly some functional groups can be intrinsically toxic (organotin compounds come to mind) but you have hydroxyl groups on damn near every molecule in your body, including all the water molecules
- Metacelsus 3y ago> peg doesn't have two hydroxyl groups, it has thousands, because it's not a glycol, it's a polymer of ethylene glycol PEG does have exactly two hydroxyl groups: one at each end of the polymer chain. The rest are ether linkages, not hydroxyl. You're right that PEG is quite different from ethylene glycol monomer, but be careful accusing people of being ignorant when your own chemistry knowledge is not the best.
- kragen 3y agoyou are of course correct, so i have removed that assertion my own level of ignorance is life-threatening in a life form that is literally made out of molecules i appreciate your efforts to ameliorate that predicament ;)
- kragen 3y agoi guess they'll just have to use lalr(1) more seriously, i wonder if something like this is a cause of the obesity pandemic: an unrecognized widespread immune response to a novel food additive provoking continuous low-level inflammation though probably not peg itself; e1521 is not in that many foods, not like xanthan gum or nanoparticles of titanium dioxide
- sjducb 3y agoOr the widespread allergies
- due-rr 3y agoHere’s an interesting Twitter thread with various explanations for the obesity pandemic [1]. [1] https://twitter.com/mold_time/status/1412827749828513800?s=20 https://twitter.com/mold_time/status/1412827749828513800?s=2...
- 4death4 3y agoJust speaking from personal experience, I’m fat because I eat cake and ice cream every day and walk 6,000 steps on a good day. I don’t really see a mystery here tbh.
- thrwwyunpopular 3y agoThe prevalence of sugar in modern diets along with how ludicrously industrialized food has become, particularly in America, is likely still the main cause for obesity rates. People point out all these other secondary factors but we should really focus on the 80%, the big ticket item. It's damn near impossible to find nutritiously acceptable breakfast, lunch and dinner choices near the office in big cities in America. From the American perspective, the choices are all fine because that's all people know. But relative to what you can find in Europe or even Latin America, the alternatives are downright appalling. "Food manufacturing" should be a banned term.
- flextheruler 3y agoWhat city do you live in? There is a huge array of healthy low calorie options near me all the way to pure vegetarian/vegan places. There is a ridiculously strong correlation between sedentariness and obesity. We our more sedentary than ever before and then remote work/school increased it again. I believe a person struggling with weight is basically determined in their childhood. Only in childhood will the body build new fat cells and the number of fat cells determines hormonal production of leptin and others which trigger hunger cues for the rest of life. Basically a fat child will permanently be hungrier for the rest of their life due to increased numbers of fat cells. If you’re a skinny and active kid you will permanently have an easier time to keep weight off. And before you blame food again sedentariness has increased among children immensely as well.
- lubesGordi 3y agoMiraLAX is basically just PEG, and is a laxative prescribed by doctors to people every day.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- le-mark 3y agoNitpick it isn’t a laxative, it is a stool softener.