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Samsung and other manufacturers disable phones bought on gray markets
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago"gray market" here means stolen right?
- seretogis 3y agoTFA explains in the second paragraph: > These devices are not stolen but are originally intended for other regions.
- datameta 3y agoIntent... There isn't a law about upkeeping a corporation's expectation is there? Are these users in breach of anything? Good on the Mexican gov't in this case for protecting consumers.
- thsksbd 3y agoNo. When you buy something it's yours. Full stop. The law cant even stop you from reverse engineering it or making a copy. It only stops you from distributing a copy. IP law is only meant to setup an artificial monopoly and then only for a set amount of time.
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- freitzkriesler2 3y agoNo phones bought in a region not intended for their primary sale.
- KennyBlanken 3y agoNo, it means "not paying the highway robbery prices from the official distributor in Mexico" https://www.reddit.com/r/samsung/comments/16pgliq/samsung_blocking_importedinternational_phones_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/samsung/comments/16pgliq/samsung_bl...
- cvalka 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_import https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_import
- Hnrobert42 3y agoYou are thinking of “black market”.
- thsksbd 3y agoAbsolutely not. Its not even immoral. Grey market refers to third parties buying a good in country A to resell in country B. As long as they pay the import levies the good is 100% legal. Manufacturers (phones, cameras, books) hate this because they want to charge some markets more than others. Book publishers, in particular, tried to use the courts to ban this as a violation of copyright only to get laughed out of court because the seller loses all rights towards an item when it is sold Ultimately it is free market capitalism in reverse. Which is ironic, of course, because your phone manufacturer would have an aneurism if their ability to use cheap foreign slave labor were curtailed
- tbrownaw 3y ago> Ultimately it is free market capitalism in reverse. Where exactly does the "reverse" come in?
- thsksbd 3y agoReversing the roles of the players. Typically the little guy gets crushed by capital's freedom to flow. In this case, it's the little guy that exploits the freedom of goods (ie low tariffs) to avoid the big guy's power.
- kmeisthax 3y agoNo, and we should stop using the term "gray market" for perfectly legitimate international phone reselling. The phones aren't stolen, they were purchased and resold to another country. This is perfectly legal but manufacturers hate it because they can't price discriminate as easily. In this specific case, Samsung has a local distributor in Mexico that upcharges significantly, so Mexicans just buy phones in the US and use them in Mexico. The local distributor hates this because they have no margin if they can't gouge Mexico, so they are trying to scare anyone using a US phone in Mexico so that they can sell you a new distributor-bullshit-royalty-bearing phone instead.
- javitury 3y agoThis is nuts, isn't Samsung aware that tourism is a big thing nowadays? Imagine going on holidays to Mexico and your phone stops working because some smartass at Samsung is pushing for price discrimination.
- vachina 3y agoIf you’re okay with software companies charging different prices for users from different regions, how is this any different? Also your phone don’t just drop dead once you enter Mexico, you’d have to activate the phone with a non-native samsung account for the block to kick in. My Germany created Samsung account still works on my German Samsung phone despite having living in Asia.
- MiguelX413 3y agoWho is to say we are ok with software companies doing it?
- dotnet00 3y agoPlenty of apologiszm for them in this thread.
- em-bee 3y agoit's one thing to charge different prices per region, but quite another to disable the software or device just because i am moving to another country, or bought something while travelling.
- bonton89 3y agoThey're both bullshit though. They make extra e-waste, give customers confusing hassles to deal with and retard the benefit of cheaper goods from abroad for more expensive countries which was really the only positive aspect to your common worker in those countries enabled by global trade.
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- darklycan51 3y agoWouldn't bother me if they targeted stolen phones. After all sorry but I don't see how you have a phone to resell unless you are an irresponsible consumer and I am pro shutting those people down. if you buy a phone and use it till it dies, as we should, your phone shouldn't really be "resellable". And shutting down stolen phones automatically is good for third world countries where owning anything remotely good means you are a target for criminals.
- datameta 3y agoThe phones are not stolen, merely intended for another region.
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- bakugo 3y ago> If you resell a phone, it's can only be because you stole it Am I right in assuming you're a regular buyer of Apple devices?
- dotnet00 3y agoDo you even need to ask?
- hug 3y ago> if you buy a phone and use it till it dies, as we should Why should we do this, exactly? Someone should use it until it dies, but that person shouldn't necessarily be the first owner. Why can I not use the secondary market to both subsidise my upgrades & provide someone with an opportunity to buy a second-hand phone at a discount?
- sokoloff 3y agoAs a buyer of 12-24 month old iPhones (and 3-6 year old cars), I'm really glad this market exists.
- hurryer 3y agoArticle says that multiple phone makers do this in Mexico. I haven't heard about this practice in other countries. Could it be that there is a particularly dumb law in Mexico which makes companies do this?
- xbmcuser 3y agoah no mexican government is fining companies for doing this
- KennyBlanken 3y agoLink that isn't blogspam (and far easier to read to boot): https://mexicobusiness.news/tech/news/samsung-blocks-smartphones-acquired-through-gray-market https://mexicobusiness.news/tech/news/samsung-blocks-smartph... > According to Mexico's Federal Consumer Protection Agency (PROFECO), Samsung smartphones acquired through the gray market pose a risk of suboptimal device performance. Moreover, it could also expose consumers to incompatibility with Mexico’s mobile networks, limit technical support accessibility and inadequate cybersecurity controls within the device, among others. looool at this bullshit. Carriers can block incompatible phones, and most Samsungs are locked up tight bootloader/firmware-wise so that bit about security is a joke. > Since the acquisition of technological devices through the gray market is not explicitly prohibited by Mexican law, multiple technological companies have urged the country to propose legislation aimed at preventing and prosecuting the sale of unofficially distributed devices. However, only eight days after going into effect, the PROFECO and the Federal Telecommunications Institute (IFT) in Mexico petitioned Samsung to cease blocking smartphones purchased by unofficial channels, arguing that the measure applied by the South Korean company affected Mexican consumers' rights. From reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/samsung/comments/16pgliq/samsung_blocking_importedinternational_phones_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/samsung/comments/16pgliq/samsung_bl... Numerous people saying the prices from the official distributor are incredibly expensive. This is true in a lot of smaller countries - one distributor has official distributorship and somehow it becomes the government's place to help them protect their monopoly on distribution.
- hurryer 3y agoWhy would Samsung have just one distributor in Mexico with very high prices? This doesn't make sense. In EU you can buy from a variety of sellers at various prices. You can buy grey market too and Samsung doesn't disable those phones. So what is special about Mexico?
- Sephr 3y agoAny genuine customer purchasing phones could simply ask the seller (the phone OEM) for unlocked phones instead of region-activation-locked phones. A potential scenario where bulk orders of region-activation-locked phones could end up in the wrong region is theft. If the customers don't like broken phones, they should sue the person who sold the phones instead of complaining to the manufacturer to disable anti-theft mechanisms.
- smitop 3y agoGrey market phones aren't stolen. Samsung sells phones cheaper in some regions, so arbitrageurs buy them cheap in one region and resell them at a higher price in Mexico. Samsung wouldn't sell region-unlocked phones at the cheaper price because they want to make money.
- Sephr 3y agoAh, that makes sense and I stand corrected. There should be anti-e-waste legislation that bans or penalizes for this practice. I'm not sure if region-activation-locking as a concept is unethical. I definitely think that for-profit arbitrage on region-activation-locked devices sold in improper regions should be banned though.
- mtnGoat 3y agoSo… free market capitalism for some, but not all? If I buy a good, I should not be able to sell it when/where I see fit?
- gruez 3y agoFrom wikipedia: "In economics, a free market is an economic system in which the prices of goods and services are determined by supply and demand expressed by sellers and buyers. " "Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit." How is "If I buy a good, I should not be able to sell it when/where I see fit? " implied by either of those things?
- unyttigfjelltol 3y agoIf you want to buy a new Android phone, and wish to avoid Samsung and Moto, as well as China-based manufacturers, are you basically stuck with Pixel?
- kawogi 3y agoI like my Fairphone, but it's certainly not everyone's choice.
- QuarterReptile 3y agoSony makes an interesting though expensive one. The better answer would be Asus (Taiwan based.) I'd buy the zenfone because of camera and size, but alas I got a crazy trade in for a Samsung last year and now have no reason to change phones. Edit: Specifically Zenfone 10. Top of the line SoC, 4300mAh battery, only 5.9", apparently good camera set up, and on and on. I don't know anything about the software though.
- pteraspidomorph 3y agoI have an older Zenfone, no issues ever. It was easy to replace the OS and root (voiding the warranty though).
- MerelyMortal 3y agoDid you physically have to solder something? It is extremely unlikely that you actually voided a warranty by installing different software unless that software somehow causes physical damage (overheating?). At least in the U.S. anyway.
- pteraspidomorph 3y agoIt phones home once in the process of unlocking the bootloader.
- QuarterReptile 3y ago
- Hnrobert42 3y agoThat font.
- wkat4242 3y agoYeah really hard to read on mobile
- taspeotis 3y agoTitle is not wrong but should probably say “disabled” since they aren’t disabling anything any more… > Motorola and Samsung, the main culprits, had to cease their actions immediately and issued statements agreeing to cooperate with the Mexican government to find a solution.
- ballenf 3y agoThey stopped in Mexico after threats from regulators there. I think it's safe to assume they'll keep doing it (or start doing again) in other countries where they can get away with it. But at the very least, the article doesn't say they agreed to never do it again anywhere in the world.
- xtracto 3y agoI'm in Mexico and the news here mentioned that Motorola and Samsung did this as part of a "pilot" program in the country. Mainly because the consumer protection agencies here (PROFECO and IFETEL) are basically toothless and corrupt(ible). The sad thing is that its guaranteed that they will do it again.
- lcw 3y agoI worked for a start-up that was struggling for money. The CEO had a bunch of relationships with small carriers in the US. One day he asked me to create a program that rooted a specific type of flagship Android phone and to update the carrier information to his choosing. At first, since we were a testing startup that had some government contracts, I thought this was for testing purposes since we had cell test equipment. I realized not too long after it was to basically enable small US carriers to sell flagship phones that were meant for different regions... Let's just say that was the final nail in the coffin for me at that specific startup.
- Namidairo 3y ago> One day he asked me to create a program that rooted a specific type of flagship Android phone and to update the carrier information to his choosing. Are you referring to the baked in default APN's for different MCC/MNC combinations? Yeah those were/are quite annoying to have around if they were out of date. (I think there might be auto-update of these now, but that obviously requires a network connection) Or are you referring to actual radio config partitions on the flash? (Where one was able in the past on many models, flip bits in order to activate different cell bands) The former being janky and security risk, the latter being somewhat illegal.
- lcw 3y agoThis is from about 10 years ago. So the carrier apis were a little different then, but the answer is both were necessary to update depending on the test or in this case carrier.
- quickthrower2 3y agoGenuine question as I don’t understand what this is. Is this essentially just unlocking the phone or something else?
- HideousKojima 3y ago>Let's just say that was the final nail in the coffin for me at that specific startup. I don't understand what you had an issue with here? Legally it's completely in the clear (see first sale doctrine) and morally I'm not sure how it's any different than, say, the startups making IBM compatibles back in the 80's.
- Terr_ 3y agoI realize it doesn't hold sway everywhere--sometimes it's even at risk in the US--but this relates to the First-sale Doctrine [0], essentially the idea that manufacturers can't use "intellectual property" to maintain a ridiculous degree/duration of control over an object that they already sold. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
- lotsofpulp 3y agoWhat if customers want to buy a product where the manufacturer maintains a ridiculous degree of control? For example, to make it completely worthless to thieves.
- rasz 3y agoThats called Leasing.
- lotsofpulp 3y agoOne of the main components of a lease is you have to give it back. Also, the manufacturer can let people sell the device and still maintain the ability to brick it if the owner reports it stolen.
- brookst 3y agoNot even remotely the same thing. Leasing means you only pay depreciation plus interest; it is an economic alternative to up front purchase or installment payments.
- LAC-Tech 3y agosmart phones are such a shit show. I genuinely don't understand how people on 'hacker' news get so excited about these locked down, bloated toy computers.
- javajosh 3y agoThey are what's in front of people's faces, so they are what matter. Same is true for the web.
- ballenf 3y agoProbably the same reason we buy modern cars.
- worthless-trash 3y agoTo hack them ?
- Beached 3y agoto have a convient, reliable, and feature rich tool to use in our daily life.
- artificialLimbs 3y agoThis. I used to love Androids because I could root them, change my ringtones for free and easily, and customize it to unrecognizable. Now I use iPhones because I would rather spend that tinkering time working on other things or with my family, and the interface is (mostly) stable and conducive to that.
- worthless-trash 3y agoYou can have both, the same device can solve both problems. You dont -have- to root your phone.
- autoexec 3y ago
- causality0 3y agoThere are also geopolitical considerations. If the US goes to war with China, is every OnePlus device a security threat? The fact manufacturers have more control over my phone than I do is infuriating.
- Racing0461 3y agoI want when i mark my iphone as stolen on findmyiphone its completely worthless including individual components being blacklisted so they can't be parted out and sold individually. As "scientists" loved to say during the pandemic, this is equilivalent of herd immunity for iphone users. thieves would know they are worthless when marked as stolen. Now how would this be balanced with aritificial "geofencing" like samsung is trying to do here and right to repair?
- AnthonyMouse 3y agoLegitimate devices could voluntarily check the serial numbers of parts against a stolen parts database so the seller would be caught, and likewise carriers when they activate a device. To make the parts checks mandatory would require controlling every device the part could be installed in, even when that device isn't stolen and the check is being performed against the will of the legitimate owner of that device. If you wanted to implement that scheme, having the government keep the root keys for every device for this purpose would reduce the number of parties with access to them and prevent their use for this kind of region locking. Whereas with the system you propose, both the manufacturer and the government (every government where the manufacturer operates) can remotely control the device. Because a government can coerce the manufacturer, including to do what they want without telling anyone, or just send their intelligence service into the corporation to compromise their systems without the company even knowing. So the scheme you prefer is actually inferior to the sort of remote government backdoors that are occasionally proposed and then condemned because of the catastrophic systemic risk they imply. For a small incremental benefit over honest carriers and buyers consenting to the automatic checks of their own volition. Some things aren't worth the trade off.
- grishka 3y agoThe most bizarre part is that Samsung retains this much control over phones after sale, that this kind of remote disabling is at all possible and that there exists code, built into the stock system image, that performs it. It can be said that they sell backdoored devices yet no one is even alarmed by this fact, only by how the backdoor is used.
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- matheusmoreira 3y agoAgreed. It's seriously disturbing that they have any access at all. I gotta wonder if other products are similarly compromised. ISP equiment comes to mind.
- inemesitaffia 3y agoEspecially in cable networks, the ISP almost always fully controls the CPE
- grishka 3y agoThat's at least expected because often you don't even own the modem, you lease it from the ISP.
- inemesitaffia 3y agoEven when you buy your own at retail, the network sends configuration details to you. And it's not just DHCP
- grishka 3y agoI don't know how it works in other parts of the world, but my experience with access technologies that require a modem, like DOCSIS, is that you're supposed to buy your own router to plug into the ISP-provided modem and configure PPPoE on it. It would make sense for there to exist two-in-one devices but so far I've only seen them for fiber. The settings on them are as advanced as they are on any router. The default admin password is printed on the sticker too.
- hollow-moe 3y agoThis kind of stuff is the exact reason why official lineage support is the first thing I look when I need to buy a new smartphone.
- meonmyphone 3y agoI work on a retailer that partnered with Samsung to implement a feature that would disable devices if the customers didn't pay their installments in time. I was surprised with that kind of control from Samsung. In the end it feels that device is not really yours. I wonder if other brands do something like that.