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Driver's failure to laugh at odd question during stop not reasonable suspicion
- artursapek 3y agoI thought laughter was a sign of nervousness? Crazy way to pass judgement on somebody IMO
- sjsdaiuasgdia 3y agoYeah, this effectively becomes an "are you like me?" cultural test, which is just overflowing with implicit bias.
- permo-w 3y agoI don't think it's the worst heuristic of all time, especially just for the individual's awareness of the situation, but it shouldn't be legal grounding for anything
- matthewaveryusa 3y agoYes, as a natural nervous laugher myself I had to course-correct later in life and learn to have gravitas. It is never beneficial to laugh, even if your counter-part is emotionally intelligent enough to know that it's nervous laughter because: 1) Your counter-part may not be emotionally intelligent enough 2) Deep-down, even if you know someone is showing you a nervous laugh it takes yet another level of emotional discipline to not be annoyed by it (like parents telling their kids "it's not funny".) I can't stress enough how much extra trouble I got myself into by being a nervous laugher and no one telling me any better. As a child when you nervous laugh, the typical response from an adult is typically ~ "Oh yeah, let me double down and show you how not funny this situation is" which implicitly is trying to be a punitive lesson in life to change your behavior. All this to say, this kind of police training/question is just cops making up pseudo-science and, as someone else pointed out, "heads I win, tails you lose" situation.
- mysterydip 3y agoI'm immediately guilty in a lot of situations because I have some kind of automatic laugh when it's a high pressure scenario. I'm telling the truth but the laugh makes them think I'm lying, which then just cranks the pressure up higher as I have to convince them I'm not.
- quercusa 3y agoIt's a "heads I win, tails you lose" test.
- dr-detroit 3y ago[dead]
- ilyt 3y agoNo reaction ? Straight to jail Nervous ? Straight to jail Laughing ? Straight to jail Laughing nervously ? Guess what, straight to jail
- Traubenfuchs 3y ago> I thought laughter was a sign of nervousness? The cop in front of you decides what's nervousness or not.
- ipython 3y agoI have never laughed at a police officer during a traffic stop. I'd assume, as a driver, laughing at an officer is a straight line to a ticket or, at worst, an arrest.
- f233f2 3y ago[flagged]
- tyingq 3y ago> at worst, an arrest. Well, that plus some unearned violence.
- readthenotes1 3y ago[flagged]
- yieldcrv 3y agohappens in suburban, exurban, and rural areas too unless urban was supposed to be an antiquated (but always) out of touch reference to a style, in which case I would say “nice try” and hit the flag button for that reason alone
- btilly 3y agoI'm pretty sure that plenty of autistic people would fail that test. As would I if I was in a bad mood.
- ceejayoz 3y agoEveryone fails the test. The same cop deemed laughing to be suspicious, too. https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/1715764780567572945 https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/1715764780567572945 > When Officer Smart returned to the driver’s side window, he asked Ross whether there were any “firearms in the vehicle, narcotics, specifically heroin, crack, marijuana, cats and dogs.” Ross looked straight ahead, paused, and then “kind of giggled and said no.” Officer Smart observed that Ross continued to appear very nervous and continued to reach towards the center console and move his jacket around. The backup officer arrived soon thereafter. Officers Smart and Foreman had become sufficiently concerned that Ross might be armed as a result of their observations and interactions with Ross that they then asked Ross to exit the vehicle.
- seanhunter 3y agoThis is the modern equivalent of the "Swimming test" for detecting witches[1]. Being nervous when questioned by a cop is a perfectly rational response. Lots of people giggle when nervous. My wife, for example, laughs every time I hurt myself[2]. [1] https://www.epoch-magazine.com/post/sink-or-swim-the-swimming-test-in-english-witchcraft https://www.epoch-magazine.com/post/sink-or-swim-the-swimmin... [2] I sort of hope this is a nervous response rather than her finding me hurting myself genuinely funny
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- defen 3y agoThe quote leaves off the punchline, which is that the person did have drugs and a firearm in the vehicle.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
- everyone 3y agoAnyone who says they can tell someone is lying is bullshitting themselves imo. Where do they get this belief from? I wonder would any of them do better than a coin flip in a double blind trial.
- Clubber 3y agoEgo usually.
- ceejayoz 3y agoCompounded with lots of opportunity for confirmation bias.
- hotnfresh 3y agoWith cops, I wouldn't be surprised if they've had woo-heavy bullshit training about spotting liars. [EDIT] TFA specifies that in this case, however, it was not from official training.
- refulgentis 3y agoAnd it's nihilist: Same officer, another case, same phrases, there he testifies the warning sign was the laughter. https://x.com/OrinKerr/status/1715764780567572945?s=20 https://x.com/OrinKerr/status/1715764780567572945?s=20 It's about power. I don't mind police generally, and the bitter negative majority take really turned me off for 30+ years. But they're right. It's about power. The bitter negativity just results from seeing what happens when you're on the wrong side of that. I've been lucky enough to avoid it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bragr 3y ago>Note that the officer said he got that from other officers, not from official training. This is something that surfaced in the public discourse during the George Floyd protests. The average police officer doesn't receive as much formal training as most people think. Most police academies last less than a military boot camp, and a rookie is expected to get most of their training on the job, which is how this guy was taught this nonsense.
- Clubber 3y ago>Note that the officer said he got that from other officers, not from official training. Well under trail, that officer needs to name names and get those other officers on the defendant list.
- irrational 3y agoI don't think I'd laugh at that question. I'd just be confused and quiet as I tried to figure out why anyone would ask such a stupid question.
- omgJustTest 3y agoI'm so oblivious and literal that I would likely not laugh. I sometimes wonder if people have no internal thoughts in their head other than what someone else is saying, many times, even in high stress, I will be thinking about how to respond after I have gathered the essence of the argument. Long lists generally lose me two items in. There's never been more evidence that cops need a psychology degree with deference to questioning their own judgement.
- JohnFen 3y agoI wouldn't laugh either. Being stopped by a cop is a high-stress event. The funniest joke in the world wouldn't be able to make me laugh while I'm dealing with the situation.
- technofiend 3y agoPulling out of a parking lot, I looked left, looked right and started to pull out only to narrowly avoid getting rammed by a cop who ran a stop sign. He jumped out of his car and started screaming at me to pay better attention to the road. No emergency lights, no siren. Just (from my perspective) someone who apparently ran a stop sign and got angry when someone else was in his way. You never know what kind of day someone's having or if they're about to go off on someone. Now, make the consequences of catching someone on a bad day 10x worse because they have a badge and a gun. Fortunately for me, I don't think I even got a ticket, but people have been shot in dubious circumstances many, many times. I'm not about to crack a joke or laugh at one in a police interaction.
- megablast 3y agoYou need a dashcam
- soperj 3y agoDashcam doesn't stop bullets.
- marginalia_nu 3y agoYou need a mad max style technical.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Traubenfuchs 3y ago> they have a badge and a gun ... and immunity from persecution for shooting you. ... and a statistically vastly higher chance, compared to the average population, to desire committing murder and hurting other people. Bad mix. Police (in the US) is fucking scary.
- nathanaldensr 3y ago> persecution I think you meant prosecution as they are definitely not immune to persecution nowadays--at least from the public.
- mkoryak 3y agoWhen I worked at startups i interviewed people for swe jobs. I used to ask "what is your favorite 4 letter word?" and compare responses to their interview performance.
- irrational 3y agoI'm into board games, so I would say "game". What might that indicate about my performance?
- mkoryak 3y agoNothing at all.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- refulgentis 3y agoI don't understand EDIT: In all seriousness, anyone have an idea of _what_ they're thinking when they ask this? I don't get it, at all. Yes it's a horrible interview question, but...what do they even think they're getting out of it?
- mkoryak 3y agoPoop fart and code
- imbusy111 3y agoWould be a red flag for me about the company, that my performance is judged by unrelated factors that I have no control of.
- seanhunter 3y agoThat's a staggeringly terrible question. I hope you're joking but I suspect you're probably not. If someone asked me that question in an interview that would be a red flag for me.
- tomohawk 3y agoIn this case, a person who committed no crime was pulled over, and then arrested for laughing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AAx-td3uzM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AAx-td3uzM They eventually got off of all charges, but the process is the punishment. EDIT Forgot to add - the only correct answer to a police officer asking questions is "I do not answer any questions without my attorney present". Also, for a traffic stop, courts have ruled that once they give you back your license, you are free to go. The police can lie to you and try to get your consent to be there after that, but you can just drive off. They may want your consent to stay for a dog to sniff your car or something. Don't be bullied - just drive off.
- ProllyInfamous 3y agoA better version of this is: "my attorney has advised me not to answer your questions without her being [physically] present." I believe it is more polite and indicates better that you actually have an attorney (even if you don't). Before driving off, you should always depart any conflict with "am I still being detained or am I now under arrest?"
- runako 3y ago> indicates better that you actually have an attorney (even if you don't). IANAL, but: If you don't have an attorney, don't lie to a police officer and say/suggest that you do.
- JohnFen 3y ago> "am I still being detained or am I now under arrest?" I wouldn't say that last part for a couple of reasons. Mainly, phrasing it as if those were the only two options might make a cop decide to arrest you. Also, those aren't the only two options. You might just continue to be detained. I think asking "am I free to go?" is a better question.
- ProllyInfamous 3y agoAbsolutely agreed. The politer the overall interaction, the simpler the departures.
- ww520 3y agoThat’s a bs reason. Reasonable suspicion needs to be on an articulable particular crime. It cannot be a suspicion of some unknown crime. But cops will give any bs reason to make an arrest. Don’t fight them at the scene. Fight them at court.
- RajT88 3y ago> It cannot be a suspicion of some unknown crime. Yep. This is the exactly problem - these stop-and-search with dubious probable cause excuses are all about hitting their numbers without having to work too hard. They are "fishing expeditions". If you have been pulled over for seemingly no obvious reason, they are looking to find something to arrest you for already.
- lamontcg 3y agoThe future of 100% driverless vehicles would be great since there'd no longer be any reason to pull anyone over. The driver of the vehicle would be Apple or Google or Uber or Tesla. The occupant could be happily hammered on whatever drugs they like without causing any risk. Cops would have to find a new job.
- RajT88 3y agoI don't believe for a second it would go like this. "Broken tail light", "Old version of FSD software", "Erratic FSD behavior, potentially modified FSD". Just new reasons for probable cause, with the same goal: to write tickets and make arrests. I don't want to say all, but many (and in places, most) traffic stops are about hitting quotas and not about public safety.
- ww520 3y agoOpen container alcohol laws apply to all passengers in a car, not just the driver.
- lamontcg 3y agoIf nobody drives any more, there's no point to that.
- ktosobcy 3y agoUSA is amusing :-D also asking "do you plan to co commit terrorist attacks" on visa / migration form is literally "xD" material.
- ilyt 3y ago"Not this visit"
- hef19898 3y agoPretty smart actually, wrong answers would give them the opportunity to either deport or arrest people, and then see what else they can find. Not supporting that, but the idea itself isn't bad...
- vlovich123 3y agoThose kinds of questions are so that it’s easier to deport because lying on those forms is a very direct path to deportation.
- ipaddr 3y agoDo you plan to could be no when filling out the form but you still do it later. The form will still be correct
- discard123 3y ago[dead]
- seanhunter 3y agoI know the urban myth, but I have travelled to the US dozens of times over the last 20+ years, have had a couple of different types of US visa, been on the TSA precheck and Global Entry programmes so I have filled in a lot of visa and immigration forms and that's not ever been a question on any form I've had to fill out. Edit to add: Here's the I-94W form which people normally tell this story about https://i.stack.imgur.com/NhlML.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/NhlML.jpg The second question is the one which asks whether you are a convicted terrorist or nazi war criminal but it doesn't ask whether you're planning anything.
- ilyt 3y agoWhy US allows such clowns to enforce law ?
- black6 3y agoBecause no one of appreciable intelligence and morals would take the job. It's the last resort for people who are otherwise unhireable.
- MerelyMortal 3y agoSpeak only for yourself. If it paid more than what I am doing now, I would take the job. If you attract better people with higher pay, you can choose better people.
- orwin 3y agoIn my country, the entry-level pay is above the median salary, and according to a recently retired police chief, new hires are dumber and dumber. They used to demand a score of 11 (14 to be officer) in the early 90s, they simplified the exam, and still hire people who score lower than 8 nowadays. He saw a new hire flashball his own foot. I don't think it's pay related.
- black6 3y agoIf policing paid more then yes, it would attract higher quality applicants. But it's terrible pay for a terrible job, so it's the last resort for those who aren't sociopaths.
- arrowsmith 3y agoBecause clowns also wrote the law.
- tyingq 3y agoThere are no national standards, so every city, county, and state get to determine the requirements for being a police officer. There's typically no educational requirement beyond high school. The prospect of being able to legally bully people obviously attracts some amount of people of a certain mindset. So if you don't try to filter for that, you get this situation. There's several other factors, like our concept of "qualified immunity", "thin blue line" attitudes, and powerful police unions that contribute to the environment where you can do whatever you want with impunity.
- ryandrake 3y agoFunny how police departments cry crocodile tears every time the public discusses whether so many of them are needed, or about right-sizing their budget. "Don't cut back on police! There's crime everywhere!" But, then they have to resort to these tricks and gotcha-questions just to try to obtain reasonable suspicion (let alone probable cause to make an arrest). If they so desperately want to find crime, they can, you know, pick up the phone when someone's car gets broken into. Plenty of that going around.
- jghn 3y agoNot a unique situation but instead of crying foul, the PD for my city has responded to budget right-sizing by cutting the things people actually want them to do. Enabling them to focus their smaller budgets on the things people were trying to get them to stop doing in the first place. It is such an infantile response.
- colpabar 3y agoDid they announce this? If so, how was it worded? One aspect of the theory that police are just not doing their jobs that really infuriates me is how it's seemingly done in secret. If so many police feel so strongly that they can't do their jobs or whatever their reasoning is, just come out and fucking say it! At least we'd all be on the same page about what's going on, and maybe we could start working towards a solution. But personally, I think that any solution is going to involve more money going to police departments, because solutions usually require money. If we want better cops, we need to pay them more and train them better, both of which cost money. I am sure there are things we could do to make policing cheaper, but I don't see how better cops won't require more money.
- jghn 3y agoIt was not officially announced. But as an example they've been doubling down on efforts to issue citations to cyclists who break traffic rules, but have also gone on record as saying they don't have the $$ the enforce traffic rules for cars. When pushed on this they said it was due to the budget cuts and they need to prioritize. Edit: I'm all for both of these, but the cyclists citations don't have much popular support. While the driver citations do.
- salamanderss 3y agoWhy bother. Just bring a dog. It can't testify in court and your interspecies hearsay about its thoughts are the rubber stamp for a warrant and RAS. Good fucking luck cross examining a dog.
- gspencley 3y agoThere are a lot of really good cops out there, but when I hear of police boasting about their ability to "read people" I get scared because to me this is no different than thinking you are psychic. As a neuro-atypical person (likely aspergers / high functioning autism), I most likely will not "get" that you are joking. I will be extremely pissed off that you interrupted my routine and are taking up my valuable time. I will want the encounter to end as quickly as possible. I'm probably also nervous because I watch an unhealthy amount of YouTube videos about traffic stops gone wrong. So yeah I'm not likely to see the humour in the situation. I'm just hoping that I did everything that was expected of me, that I don't say anything stupid and can get the ticket and move on with my day already.
- Traubenfuchs 3y agoThere are a lot of bad cops out there. 4x the chance of domestic violence. https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/homepage/20140910_Domestic_terrors.html https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/homepage/20140910_Domes...
- jghn 3y ago> There are a lot of really good cops out there People say this, but are there? To me, part of the set of requirements to be a good cop is to not only pay lip service about disliking "bad cops" but to actively work to clean the house. If as many good cops really existed and really disdained bad cops, you wouldn't see the bad cops skating peacefully through life the way they do.
- gspencley 3y ago> People say this, but are there? Yes. Anyone who takes a moment to think through the numbers logically recognizses this. And the two replies that my comment have gotten pouncing on me saying that, including yours, is the reason why it must be said. The thing about police is that it's one of those things where the routine interactions and police work, which is representative of the vast majority of what goes on, is boring and uneventful. There is no reason for it to ever make headlines. But it only takes one incident of corruption or one costly mistake and everyone is talking about it. That's a good thing, it needs to be addressed. But it really skews public perception and makes people think that that kind of stuff is way more commonplace than it actually is.
- tossaway0 3y agoIn a similar vein I was asked by an immigration officer at the airport what I would do if the US went to war with the country I'm from. It threw me completely off guard. I told him that it's lucky that solid democracies seldom go to war against each other, but that I would probably flee to the Bahamas to avoid it.
- MerelyMortal 3y agoIt's unlikely you would ever be asked that question again, but I would try to think of a response where someone could not interpret that as that you might violate Bahamas's imigration laws (entering illegally or overstaying a visa, because then if you were willing to do that with the Bahamas, then you might do it with the U.S.)
- JohnFen 3y agoI have no idea what response the authority is looking for, but I assume that "I'd return home" would be relatively inoffensive. But what is the right answer to this question? It seems like a no-win one.
- unsupp0rted 3y ago“Oh you’d return home to fight against this country?” I agree- I don’t know what “right answer” the immigration officer was expecting.
- MerelyMortal 3y ago"I would apply for a visa in another country."?
- unsupp0rted 3y ago"Oh, so you're not committed to living in this country? You know US Visas are highly sought after and we expect those who are selected to make full use of them."
- daft_pink 3y agoPretty sure they just suspect people of drugs for other reasons such as criminal history, the clothes they are wearing, etc, that isn't valid for a search and then they just make up some lame excuse for why they were suspicious if they are ever questioned about it in court.
- modzu 3y agothe judgment here is funny, but there is no algorithmic way to validate "suspicion", is there? presumably it requires "judgement" -- so the idea that we can make a list of specific "suspicious behaviors" or a list of behaviors that cannot be considered suspicious is ridiculous
- Ajay-p 3y agoI am having difficulty locating the specific case. I see a citation of "United States v. Holloway, 2023 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 187752" but Google does not yield a valid result. Does someone have a link to the full legal opinion?
- d--b 3y agoThere is a weird cultural trait in the US whereby traffic officers think every vehicle they stop is potentially key to uncovering a massive crime organization. In Europe, the guy behaves more like a school teacher who caught you cheating. Enough with the "keep your hands on the wheel", and the BS with the mag light.
- mock-possum 3y ago> Officer Smart testified that he regularly asks individuals a question concerning possession of “firearms, drugs, cats, dogs, alligators, and weapons” at vehicle stops because it “helps [him] read people’s body language and their demeanor.” … He further testified that he was trained by other officers to infer that an individual who does not laugh at such a question is nervous about either firearms or narcotics … and that he typically receives a “laughing response” to that question …. Yowza. There really needs to be oversight and review on behavior like this. Someone could've nipped Smart in the bud, he'd been treating people this way for a while by the time he got caught.