17 ms·

Toyota adopts the North American charging standard

254 points by beefman 3y ago

rootusrootus 3y ago
More than 90% now. At this point the only meaningful player who hasn't announced their conversion to NACS is VW.
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  what about BMW
  - JoshGlazebrook 3y ago
    BMW announced it 2 days ago - https://electrek.co/2023/10/17/bmw-group-adopt-nacs-across-ev-brands-enabling-tesla-supercharger-access/ https://electrek.co/2023/10/17/bmw-group-adopt-nacs-across-e...
    - jjtheblunt 3y ago
      Oh nice!
  - LUmBULtERA 3y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/17/23921374/bmw-mini-rolls-royce-tesla-nacs-ev-charging-standard https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/17/23921374/bmw-mini-rolls-... A day or two ago…
    - jjtheblunt 3y ago
      I wonder if any of these companies will have retrofit kits
      - stetrain 3y ago
        It's probably difficult to retrofit. CCS provides different wire harnesses in the vehicle for AC and DC power. NACS requires shared conductors for AC and DC power from the charge port to some point that can handle switching between them. External adapters are simple and will be available, since you can have different adapters for AC and DC charging to avoid needing active switching.
- photonbeam 3y ago
  I really want the ev minivan they’re making, but not without a nacs plug
  - kllrnohj 3y ago
    Why? The adapters are cheap and plentiful since NACS is using the CCS protocols, so it's just a physical connector difference
    - kccqzy 3y ago
      The adapters will be cheap and plentiful. They aren't available yet.
    - Rebelgecko 3y ago
      Has anyone announced their adapter pricing?
    - photonbeam 3y ago
      My prediction is that non-nacs sockets on cars will tank resale value
      - kllrnohj 3y ago
        So far all EVs have tanked in resale value.
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  Stellantis, which is the 4th manufacturer globally, still holding firm to evaluate a NACS switch. The evaluation phase has been done for them by every other manufacturer at this point. They need to jump or die.
resolutebat 3y ago
Big, but not quite as big as it seems: Toyota is lagging badly in EVs, which made up only 2% of its sales last year, and even that's a big improvement on the previous 0.4%. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/10/toyota-targets-10percent-profit-jump-robust-ev-sales-as-chip-woes-recede.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/10/toyota-targets-10percent-pro... But definitely a win for Tesla, since NACS will now be effectively universal (in the US) and Superchargers more popular than ever.
- joshl32532 3y ago
  I'm still not sure what Tesla gain from opening up SuperCharger for competitors. The no.1 reason people choose Tesla is because of the wide Supercharger network.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Revenue. Automakers did not build their own networks, so they must now contribute to have access to something required to encourage EV sales. Gas stations (very roughly speaking! lots of Superchargers are colocated at grocery stores, malls, and other places humans can comfortably dwell for 15-30 min) don't want to front the hundreds of thousands of dollars per station for the equipment, so Tesla did. Paid for out of Model S and X margins early on, and more recently through profits from total sales. Remember, fuel sales are razor thin margins, pennies per gallon. The profit is on the snacks in the gas station store. Similar with fast DC charging, it is not a profit center due to demand charges (utility charges for pulling megawatts of power on demand) and charging infra capex [1] [2] [3]. But you must have this network to soothe range anxiety, as non Supercharger networks in the US are frankly garbage (as the Dept of Energy Secretary recently discovered on a PR EV roadtrip [4]). > “To dive deeper into this sum-of-the-parts valuation, we modeled & projected out Tesla’s supercharger network, taking into account access & revenues from other OEMs using stations across the United States. Ultimately, we estimate that Tesla’s supercharger business will be roughly 3%-6% of total revenues, translating to a $10 billion – $20 billion business by 2030.” [5] [1] https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future-mobility/our-insights/can-public-ev-fast-charging-stations-be-profitable-in-the-united-states https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future... ("Can public EV fast-charging stations be profitable in the United States?") [2] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-charging-stations-lose-money-report/561026/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-... ("‘Nearly all’ high voltage EV charging stations lose money: Report") [3] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4497501-evgo-q4-earnings-not-a-go-yet-still-bleeding-too-much https://seekingalpha.com/article/4497501-evgo-q4-earnings-no... ("EVgo: Not A Go Yet, Still Bleeding Too Much") [4] https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-evs-cars-chargers-charging-energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-... ("Electric cars have a road trip problem, even for the secretary of energy") [5] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-20b-revenue-access-supercharger-nacs-deal-dan-ives/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-20b-revenue-access-supe... ("Tesla set to access up to $20B in revenues from Supercharger deals, Dan Ives says")
ofcrpls 3y ago
Given Toyota Busy Forks and Subaru Solterra are effectively the same vehicle, I'm guessing Subaru will also tag along for the ride to the promised utopia of NACS.
- adolph 3y ago
  Busy Forks == bZ4X? That is awesome, like some bad translation of a cross-language idiom.
  - queuebert 3y ago
    That's awesome, because the name 'bZ4X' gives me a migraine.
om154 3y ago
Good news for consumers?
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  I think so. NACS is a much more user-friendly connector than J1772 and CCS type 1. Adapters are a hassle, and it will be nice once we get past that, but this is objectively the best solution on the market.
adolph 3y ago
I wonder what kind of de-optimizations non Tesla makers are signing up for when their hardware gets used on Tesla owned charging infrastructure? (And vice versa) As a thought experiment imagine a Ford gas station where the pumping infrastructure is the same but when a Ford car was present some advantage exists, like maybe optimized octane without extra cost or maybe the pump ran a little faster. Or maybe another analogy would be Walmart running on AWS. Sure there are contracts, guarantees, etc, but there could be other data leaks that give a competitor advantage.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  lol, Elon is totally that petty, isn’t he?
- ggreer 3y ago
  I doubt there will be any noticeable difference. NACS's communication protocol is the same as CCS, and adapters exist in both directions. NACS's plug is smaller because the primary pins support both AC and DC. CCS uses separate pins for AC and DC. Also NACS locks the cable on the car side while CCS locks on both sides. That means with CCS, a malfunctioning cable can strand your car. The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase, but neither does CCS1, which is the version of the CCS standard used in North America and Japan (where household three-phase is rare). Europe uses CCS2, which is an even larger connector than CCS1 (due to the extra pin needed for three-phase).
  - caf 3y ago
    Two extra pins. Apart from control pins, Type 1 and NACS have live, neutral and ground. Type 2 has phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, neutral and ground.
  - kllrnohj 3y ago
    > The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase The other current downside is it doesn't support up to 1,000V like CCS does, which matters for the currently deployed 800v EVs out there. There's a revision to NACS to support this but it's not currently in the wild yet afaik. That's the next generation of superchargers
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
api 3y ago
I am so happy to see this taking off. It’s objectively so much better than CCS or CHAdeMO. I’ve also heard of people with mobility issues having trouble with the heavy chunky plugs on those standards but using NACS (aka Tesla) just fine. Why do those others have such absurdly chonky plugs anyway?
- itishappy 3y ago
  They added features over time. Tesla took a black-box approach. The CCS connectors were designed around a legacy AC charging connector at the top, then added the two DC ports below. Tesla said "let's use the same for both" and then had to design an internal circuit to separate them. Technology Connections did an overview of this recently where I'm getting most of my info. It's a 45m video, but the history is only a few minutes, and I've included a timestamp in the link below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=162s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=162s Edit: Whoops, wrong time. Fixed.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  I'm curious what the development process was behind standards like J1772, which is the basis for CCS type 1. It's not a great connector to begin with. I've had both Teslas and J1772 EVs for a number of years. Plugging in the J1772 cars is always a little game to get the connector lined up and at the right angle to connect to the car. Sometimes it takes 5 or 10 extra seconds to get it just right. But the Tesla connector just slides right in and orients itself perfectly with no effort. Push the button on the handle, door opens, insert connector -- 2 seconds every time, reliably.
  - api 3y ago
    I have a hypothesis that the auto industry didn't believe EVs would catch on until relatively recently, so they half-assed things like the charging infrastructure thinking they were just checking a box to make the government and a few Tesla fanboy weirdos happy. The internal combustion engine isn't just the thing that powers cars. In that industry it's practically a religious object. If it doesn't go vroom vroom it's not a car and your penis will fall off... or at least I think there's a whole generation of people in that field who feel that way. The fact that EVs have tipped and the transition is not going away is just now starting to sink in.
jcfrei 3y ago
This is such a stereotypical tale: Europe mandated a universal plug for electric vehicles 10 years ago - without having any noteworthy EV manufacturers - in fact most of the big European car companies completely missed the shift to EVs. At the same time in the US the largest EV manufacturer is slowly taking shape without the federal government taking any action at all to standardize chargers. Now it's 2023 - the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, European EV companies still lag behind and the Tesla standard is being adapted by the industry without any government intervention.
- irrational 3y ago
  If the the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, why does there need to be government intervention? Or, are you saying that the EU was wrong to mandate a standard? They should have waited to see how things shake out?
  - jcfrei 3y ago
    No the EU was not wrong to mandate a standard. It was a broad comparison between the European approach (bureaucratic, lots of talk and regulation) versus the American one (just getting things done). For the record, I'm European myself.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      China mandated a standard also...in this case one completely different from Europe or North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard
      - irrational 3y ago
        We need a fourth standard to unite the three! https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
        3y ago
23B1 3y ago
That's Toyota/Lexus and BMW now, right? If so – and Musk is controversial and all – but wasn't this the original 'hump', vis-a-vis Tesla that we needed to get over in order to attain widespread EV adoption?
p1necone 3y ago
Has Toyota fully given up on hydrogen in favor of electric yet?
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  Nothing will stop Toyota from pursuing every possible and maybe some impossible alternatives to EV's. It's been so weird to watch a company that did great with hybrids be so weirdly stubborn with fully electric cars.
  - comradesmith 3y ago
    I think it’s because they know there isn’t enough lithium supply for 100% of their sales to be electric. They’ve also stated that many consumers can’t afford fully electric vehicles. If they get something working with iron based batteries and have a path to fully electricity their sales then the world is a better place. Their sales volume is immense.
    - mattrick 3y ago
      It still seems odd to me that they'd just...not really do EVs while their competitors gain experience and trust shipping EVs years before them. They don't need to flip a switch and suddenly begin producing only EVs.
    - TulliusCicero 3y ago
      > I think it’s because they know there isn’t enough lithium supply for 100% of their sales to be electric. Somebody tell Europe this, since many countries are sunsetting new sales of ICE cars within the next decade, right? I'm skeptical that mining and recycling won't be able to be steadily ramped up to match demand.
- numpad0 3y ago
  FCEVs has plugin connectors, after all they are full EV. Just not battery EV.
ptelomere 3y ago
Does Tesla get any kind of royalties or patent payment when car companies adopt their standard ?
- racingmars 3y ago
  No, I don't think so, they really did open up the standard. Where Tesla makes money is when people with those cars go to charge at the Tesla superchargers.
- stetrain 3y ago
  This basically seems to be a case of Tesla truly opening up their connector standard, marrying it with the existing standardized CCS communications instead of their previous proprietary communications, and using the carrot of access to their charging network to get other manufacturers onboard for the North American market. There are some governmental pressures to use interoperable connectors used by multiple brands if you want to be eligible for federal infrastructure EV charger funding. Tesla is making themselves eligible for this funding, making sure they won't be legislated into changing all of their charge connectors to CCS1 in the future, and gaining new customers to improve profitability of their charger network. Tesla is by far the fastest growing DC charging provider in the US, on track to build over 500 stations this year with each station being 8+ chargers, some with 40 or more chargers.
- GuB-42 3y ago
  To the best of my knowledge, it is a royalty-free, truly open standard. And it is probably the reason why other manufacturers started to use it. Tesla most likely saw the writing on the wall, standardization was inevitable, it is already the case in Europe. They have a lot to gain if that standard is theirs, so they opened it. Everybody wins, especially considering that it is also a pretty good connector. I'd say that the only drawback is that it is not the same as in Europe, but since cars rarely cross the Atlantic, it is not a big deal.
throw0101c 3y ago
This is / will be SAE J3400: > This document covers the general physical, electrical, functional, and performance requirements for conductive power transfer to an electric vehicle using a handheld conductive coupler capable of transferring either DC or single-phase power using two current-carrying contacts. * https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3400/ https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3400/
throwaway128128 3y ago
I don't understand how all these makers are "adopting" the standard in cases where V2L is a huge selling point for their cars. NACS' implementation of V2L is literally a TODO in their "specification" doc. I'm not joking. https://www.autoevolution.com/news/as-carmakers-embrace-nacs-standard-bi-directional-charging-is-the-elephant-in-the-room-216870.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/as-carmakers-embrace-nacs...
- stetrain 3y ago
  They can implement V2L in the exact same way they were going to do it with the CCS connector. CCS did not specify a single way to do V2L, and current implementations by Hyundai, Ford, etc. are not standardized or brand-interoperable. While I would prefer an interoperable V2L standard, NACS is not a change for the worse in that regard. It does not prevent manufacturers from implementing whatever V2L system they wish on top of the NACS connector.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    Meanwhile standardized Chademo V2X is a thing since about a decade ago.. I don't know why they still behind for it.
    - numpad0 3y ago
      Because they offer free charging for financially literate customers. The customers are going to abuse it. In their typical corporate fashion, they don't use languages to communicate on that topic.
      - pests 3y ago
        Who offers free charging?
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    EDIT: I was wrong. Please see below for correction. ORIGINAL COMMENT: That's not true. You can buy a generic Lectron V2L unit that will work for both Hyundai and Ford and other brands. It's based on J1772 and it's a simple adapter.
GravityLab 3y ago
Congratulations Tesla! Really cool that you opened up the standard and it's now being adopted by others in the space. This is great.
- sixothree 3y ago
  Not sure how “cool” it is when they were forced to do so. I have a hard time believing the enthusiasm is genuine here.
  - nxm 3y ago
    How exactly were they forced to adopt it?
    - sixothree 3y ago
      It would be cool if you could find that information yourself. It's not hidden from view.
kuon 3y ago
What I am wondering is when electric car will become as cheap as ICE. I'm installing solar panels and even if I charge an electric car 100% at home, a similar ICE car is nearly 20% cheaper (factoring all costs). If you charge outside it's more expensive than gas. For example, a Renault Zoe, 50kWh about 40$ to charge here, 350km range (what manufacturer says), so about 11$ per 100km, my space star uses 4.5l per 100km or 8.5$ (actually measured consumption). But the space star was 14k new, Zoe is 33k. (Insurance and tax the same). This is a genuine question, I have been wanting to go electric for long, but it is still a luxury. And I haven't even taken into account older cars you can buy for a few k $. What is the strategy? Will government make ice more expensive? Ban them? EU is already backpedaling on goals for all electric.
- sowbug 3y ago
  They're already cheaper. The base trims of the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y are now less expensive than the average gas car in the US: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/electric-vehicles/teslas-are-now-cheaper-than-the-average-new-gas-powered-car https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/electric-vehicles/tesla.... That's before any tax incentives. (This is purchase price. I don't know which math you're using for your "factoring all costs" conclusion, so I have no opinion about that comparison.)
  - slaw 3y ago
    5-Year Ownership Costs Tesla 3 - $49,763 Toyota Corolla - $32,286 Corolla is nicer, more comfortable and reliable car. https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401919101&veh2=401921005 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401919101&veh2...
    - LeafItAlone 3y ago
      > Corolla is nicer, more comfortable I drove a Corolla for years (about a decade ago) and recently got to drive a Model 3 for a week. I disagree with your assessment of nicer and more comfortable. Model 3 wins there for me. But in my long experience with a Corolla and short experience with a Model 3, I will agree with the Corolla being more reliable.
thelastgallon 3y ago
Several threads in the comments about Tesla's loan. To put that in proper context .. Chrysler Bailout of 1979, $1.5 billion In 2008, $17.4 billion bailout to General Motors and Chrysler In 2009, $3 billion, cash for clunkers Ford's loan: $5.9 Billion, September 2009, Loan fully repaid in June 2022. (~13 years) https://www.energy.gov/lpo/ford https://www.energy.gov/lpo/ford Nissan loan: $1.45 billion, Jan 2010, repaid Sep 2017 https://www.energy.gov/lpo/nissan https://www.energy.gov/lpo/nissan Total net to date: -12.4B (https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/category/Auto%20Company https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/category/Auto%2...), losses from ICE manufacturers. Tesla's loan: $465 million, January 2010, Loan fully repaid in May 2013 (~3.5 years) https://www.energy.gov/lpo/tesla https://www.energy.gov/lpo/tesla There are quite possibly a lot more if we dig up the ~100 years of ICE manufacturing history. Also, don't forget the $7 trillion subsidies just in 2022 for fossil fuels: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-10-16/climate-change-why-are-governments-still-subsidizing-fossil-fuels?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-10-16/climat... And ethanol subsidies! The federal government pays oil companies about $6 billion a year to blend ethanol into your gasoline; it's been subsidizing ethanol for 33 years now: https://www.npr.org/2011/07/21/138543233/ethanol-industry-torn-over-losing-subsidy-billions https://www.npr.org/2011/07/21/138543233/ethanol-industry-to... And billions of dollars to oil companies for carbon capture. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/07/29/ford-government-loan-department-energy-debt/5526413002/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/07/29/ford-... https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/19/bush-bails-out-us-automakers-dec-19-2008-1066932 https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/19/bush-bails-out-us-... Final tally: Taxpayers auto bailout loss $9.3B https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/12/30/auto-bailout-tarp-gm-chrysler/21061251/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/12/30/auto-ba...
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  >In 2009, $3 billion, cash for clunkers I expect to see cash for clunkers 2: electric boogaloo around 2030. Once the charging infra and the grid is ready, it makes a lot of sense to disincentivize ICE ownership.
1970-01-01 3y ago
A true domino effect has occurred in the market, and in less than one year. Stellantis, VW, and Lucid are now looking at each other to see who will have the absolute worst bargaining position with Tesla.
jonnycomputer 3y ago
I think I still wish that battery-swapping was the main "refueling" method; I hear that battery swapping infrastructure is being built up in parts of Asia for small vehicles (like scooters and mopeds). I mean, theoretically, simply swapping out batteries--and just paying a fee to the batter swapper station--would work very efficiently (and quickly). Coordination problem maybe.
- dcow 3y ago
  Won’t charge times be like sub 10 minutes with the upcoming 1000V power capabilities? Though what would be really clutch about battery swapping is that the overhead of battery maintenance could be offloaded from the owner and amortized into the price of a swap. I imagine there would have to be a battery standard so that cells could be serviced at an individual level on the swap provider’s end during maintenance.
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    No. Not until we get to solid state batteries. There already are 800V batteries from multiple brands (Porsche, Hyundai, Kia to list a few) yet charge times have remained near 20 minutes.
    - Schiendelman 3y ago
      Most supercharger stops are less than 10 minutes anyway. Very few people are ever charging their battery at a supercharger from 5% to 80%. They’re putting a little bit more in so that they make it all the way home.
      - dcow 3y ago
        Not on a road trip. You primarily charge from 10 to 80% at like 250kw and it takes 15-20 min.
        Schiendelman 3y ago
kenhwang 3y ago
There's an embarrassing amount of confusion and misunderstanding in this thread for what is supposedly a technically savvy audience. The current Tesla charging standard is not NACS. NACS is a new standard based on CCS protocol with Tesla's plug hardware (SAE J3400 connector). There are very few Superchargers that support NACS, they're mostly still on the old Tesla standard. This means the US and Europe essentially have the same charging software, with different plugs on top. All the automakers already had to and intended to only support CCS. Tesla's plug just makes more sense for the US's 1-phase power compared to the bulkier CCS plug which is designed for 3-phase power. NACS is just using better hardware with the software they already have.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > The current Tesla charging standard is not NACS. > NACS is a new standard based on CCS protocol with Tesla's plug hardware (SAE J3400 connector). > There are very few Superchargers that support NACS, they're mostly still on the old Tesla standard. Are you sure about that? If so, can you cite a source explaining the difference between the current Tesla charging standard and NACS? Because that's contrary to everything I've read about it before. E.g., https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-s... says this: > We invite charging network operators and vehicle manufacturers to put the Tesla charging connector and charge port, now called the North American Charging Standard (NACS), on their equipment and vehicles. NACS is the most common charging standard in North America: NACS vehicles outnumber CCS two-to-one, and Tesla's Supercharging network has 60% more NACS posts than all the CCS-equipped networks combined.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  As far as I’m aware, any V3 superchargers (and the upcoming V4 ones) support CCS/NACS fully. Only V2 ones do not support this, and Tesla hasn’t been deploying V2 superchargers for a few years now. Anything rated for 250kW is a V3 supercharger.
  - kenhwang 3y ago
    V3 supports Tesla's implementation of "NACS", which is not what was opened up to everyone. You're more than welcome to grab a NACS-CCS conversion plug to try, it won't work because it's not speaking NACS protocol, it only has the NACS connector. Right now there's only a handful of "magic dock" truly CCS/NACS compatible superchargers that speaks the CCS/NACS protocol that works with non-Tesla vehicles[1]. 1: https://www.plugshare.com/map/tesla-ccs-locations https://www.plugshare.com/map/tesla-ccs-locations
aitchnyu 3y ago
Will older cars be retrofitted to new charger?
- photonbeam 3y ago
  Unlikely, perhaps you might find an aftermarket service in the future

254 points by beefman 3y ago

rootusrootus 3y ago

More than 90% now. At this point the only meaningful player who hasn't announced their conversion to NACS is VW.

jjtheblunt 3y ago
what about BMW
- JoshGlazebrook 3y ago
  BMW announced it 2 days ago - https://electrek.co/2023/10/17/bmw-group-adopt-nacs-across-ev-brands-enabling-tesla-supercharger-access/ https://electrek.co/2023/10/17/bmw-group-adopt-nacs-across-e...
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    Oh nice!
- LUmBULtERA 3y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/17/23921374/bmw-mini-rolls-royce-tesla-nacs-ev-charging-standard https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/17/23921374/bmw-mini-rolls-... A day or two ago…
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    I wonder if any of these companies will have retrofit kits
    - stetrain 3y ago
      It's probably difficult to retrofit. CCS provides different wire harnesses in the vehicle for AC and DC power. NACS requires shared conductors for AC and DC power from the charge port to some point that can handle switching between them. External adapters are simple and will be available, since you can have different adapters for AC and DC charging to avoid needing active switching.
photonbeam 3y ago
I really want the ev minivan they’re making, but not without a nacs plug
- kllrnohj 3y ago
  Why? The adapters are cheap and plentiful since NACS is using the CCS protocols, so it's just a physical connector difference
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    The adapters will be cheap and plentiful. They aren't available yet.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Has anyone announced their adapter pricing?
  - photonbeam 3y ago
    My prediction is that non-nacs sockets on cars will tank resale value
    - kllrnohj 3y ago
      So far all EVs have tanked in resale value.
1970-01-01 3y ago
Stellantis, which is the 4th manufacturer globally, still holding firm to evaluate a NACS switch. The evaluation phase has been done for them by every other manufacturer at this point. They need to jump or die.

resolutebat 3y ago

Big, but not quite as big as it seems: Toyota is lagging badly in EVs, which made up only 2% of its sales last year, and even that's a big improvement on the previous 0.4%. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/10/toyota-targets-10percent-profit-jump-robust-ev-sales-as-chip-woes-recede.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/10/toyota-targets-10percent-pro... But definitely a win for Tesla, since NACS will now be effectively universal (in the US) and Superchargers more popular than ever.

joshl32532 3y ago
I'm still not sure what Tesla gain from opening up SuperCharger for competitors. The no.1 reason people choose Tesla is because of the wide Supercharger network.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Revenue. Automakers did not build their own networks, so they must now contribute to have access to something required to encourage EV sales. Gas stations (very roughly speaking! lots of Superchargers are colocated at grocery stores, malls, and other places humans can comfortably dwell for 15-30 min) don't want to front the hundreds of thousands of dollars per station for the equipment, so Tesla did. Paid for out of Model S and X margins early on, and more recently through profits from total sales. Remember, fuel sales are razor thin margins, pennies per gallon. The profit is on the snacks in the gas station store. Similar with fast DC charging, it is not a profit center due to demand charges (utility charges for pulling megawatts of power on demand) and charging infra capex [1] [2] [3]. But you must have this network to soothe range anxiety, as non Supercharger networks in the US are frankly garbage (as the Dept of Energy Secretary recently discovered on a PR EV roadtrip [4]). > “To dive deeper into this sum-of-the-parts valuation, we modeled & projected out Tesla’s supercharger network, taking into account access & revenues from other OEMs using stations across the United States. Ultimately, we estimate that Tesla’s supercharger business will be roughly 3%-6% of total revenues, translating to a $10 billion – $20 billion business by 2030.” [5] [1] https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future-mobility/our-insights/can-public-ev-fast-charging-stations-be-profitable-in-the-united-states https://www.mckinsey.com/features/mckinsey-center-for-future... ("Can public EV fast-charging stations be profitable in the United States?") [2] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-charging-stations-lose-money-report/561026/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-all-high-voltage-ev-... ("‘Nearly all’ high voltage EV charging stations lose money: Report") [3] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4497501-evgo-q4-earnings-not-a-go-yet-still-bleeding-too-much https://seekingalpha.com/article/4497501-evgo-q4-earnings-no... ("EVgo: Not A Go Yet, Still Bleeding Too Much") [4] https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-evs-cars-chargers-charging-energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-... ("Electric cars have a road trip problem, even for the secretary of energy") [5] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-20b-revenue-access-supercharger-nacs-deal-dan-ives/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-20b-revenue-access-supe... ("Tesla set to access up to $20B in revenues from Supercharger deals, Dan Ives says")

ofcrpls 3y ago

Given Toyota Busy Forks and Subaru Solterra are effectively the same vehicle, I'm guessing Subaru will also tag along for the ride to the promised utopia of NACS.

adolph 3y ago
Busy Forks == bZ4X? That is awesome, like some bad translation of a cross-language idiom.
- queuebert 3y ago
  That's awesome, because the name 'bZ4X' gives me a migraine.

om154 3y ago

Good news for consumers?

rootusrootus 3y ago
I think so. NACS is a much more user-friendly connector than J1772 and CCS type 1. Adapters are a hassle, and it will be nice once we get past that, but this is objectively the best solution on the market.

adolph 3y ago

I wonder what kind of de-optimizations non Tesla makers are signing up for when their hardware gets used on Tesla owned charging infrastructure? (And vice versa) As a thought experiment imagine a Ford gas station where the pumping infrastructure is the same but when a Ford car was present some advantage exists, like maybe optimized octane without extra cost or maybe the pump ran a little faster. Or maybe another analogy would be Walmart running on AWS. Sure there are contracts, guarantees, etc, but there could be other data leaks that give a competitor advantage.

earthboundkid 3y ago
lol, Elon is totally that petty, isn’t he?
ggreer 3y ago
I doubt there will be any noticeable difference. NACS's communication protocol is the same as CCS, and adapters exist in both directions. NACS's plug is smaller because the primary pins support both AC and DC. CCS uses separate pins for AC and DC. Also NACS locks the cable on the car side while CCS locks on both sides. That means with CCS, a malfunctioning cable can strand your car. The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase, but neither does CCS1, which is the version of the CCS standard used in North America and Japan (where household three-phase is rare). Europe uses CCS2, which is an even larger connector than CCS1 (due to the extra pin needed for three-phase).
- caf 3y ago
  Two extra pins. Apart from control pins, Type 1 and NACS have live, neutral and ground. Type 2 has phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, neutral and ground.
- kllrnohj 3y ago
  > The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase The other current downside is it doesn't support up to 1,000V like CCS does, which matters for the currently deployed 800v EVs out there. There's a revision to NACS to support this but it's not currently in the wild yet afaik. That's the next generation of superchargers

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

api 3y ago

I am so happy to see this taking off. It’s objectively so much better than CCS or CHAdeMO. I’ve also heard of people with mobility issues having trouble with the heavy chunky plugs on those standards but using NACS (aka Tesla) just fine. Why do those others have such absurdly chonky plugs anyway?

itishappy 3y ago
They added features over time. Tesla took a black-box approach. The CCS connectors were designed around a legacy AC charging connector at the top, then added the two DC ports below. Tesla said "let's use the same for both" and then had to design an internal circuit to separate them. Technology Connections did an overview of this recently where I'm getting most of my info. It's a 45m video, but the history is only a few minutes, and I've included a timestamp in the link below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=162s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=162s Edit: Whoops, wrong time. Fixed.
rootusrootus 3y ago
I'm curious what the development process was behind standards like J1772, which is the basis for CCS type 1. It's not a great connector to begin with. I've had both Teslas and J1772 EVs for a number of years. Plugging in the J1772 cars is always a little game to get the connector lined up and at the right angle to connect to the car. Sometimes it takes 5 or 10 extra seconds to get it just right. But the Tesla connector just slides right in and orients itself perfectly with no effort. Push the button on the handle, door opens, insert connector -- 2 seconds every time, reliably.
- api 3y ago
  I have a hypothesis that the auto industry didn't believe EVs would catch on until relatively recently, so they half-assed things like the charging infrastructure thinking they were just checking a box to make the government and a few Tesla fanboy weirdos happy. The internal combustion engine isn't just the thing that powers cars. In that industry it's practically a religious object. If it doesn't go vroom vroom it's not a car and your penis will fall off... or at least I think there's a whole generation of people in that field who feel that way. The fact that EVs have tipped and the transition is not going away is just now starting to sink in.

jcfrei 3y ago

This is such a stereotypical tale: Europe mandated a universal plug for electric vehicles 10 years ago - without having any noteworthy EV manufacturers - in fact most of the big European car companies completely missed the shift to EVs. At the same time in the US the largest EV manufacturer is slowly taking shape without the federal government taking any action at all to standardize chargers. Now it's 2023 - the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, European EV companies still lag behind and the Tesla standard is being adapted by the industry without any government intervention.

irrational 3y ago
If the the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, why does there need to be government intervention? Or, are you saying that the EU was wrong to mandate a standard? They should have waited to see how things shake out?
- jcfrei 3y ago
  No the EU was not wrong to mandate a standard. It was a broad comparison between the European approach (bureaucratic, lots of talk and regulation) versus the American one (just getting things done). For the record, I'm European myself.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    China mandated a standard also...in this case one completely different from Europe or North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard
    - irrational 3y ago
      We need a fourth standard to unite the three! https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
      - 3y ago

23B1 3y ago

That's Toyota/Lexus and BMW now, right? If so – and Musk is controversial and all – but wasn't this the original 'hump', vis-a-vis Tesla that we needed to get over in order to attain widespread EV adoption?

p1necone 3y ago

Has Toyota fully given up on hydrogen in favor of electric yet?

TulliusCicero 3y ago
Nothing will stop Toyota from pursuing every possible and maybe some impossible alternatives to EV's. It's been so weird to watch a company that did great with hybrids be so weirdly stubborn with fully electric cars.
- comradesmith 3y ago
  I think it’s because they know there isn’t enough lithium supply for 100% of their sales to be electric. They’ve also stated that many consumers can’t afford fully electric vehicles. If they get something working with iron based batteries and have a path to fully electricity their sales then the world is a better place. Their sales volume is immense.
  - mattrick 3y ago
    It still seems odd to me that they'd just...not really do EVs while their competitors gain experience and trust shipping EVs years before them. They don't need to flip a switch and suddenly begin producing only EVs.
  - TulliusCicero 3y ago
    > I think it’s because they know there isn’t enough lithium supply for 100% of their sales to be electric. Somebody tell Europe this, since many countries are sunsetting new sales of ICE cars within the next decade, right? I'm skeptical that mining and recycling won't be able to be steadily ramped up to match demand.
numpad0 3y ago
FCEVs has plugin connectors, after all they are full EV. Just not battery EV.

ptelomere 3y ago

Does Tesla get any kind of royalties or patent payment when car companies adopt their standard ?

racingmars 3y ago
No, I don't think so, they really did open up the standard. Where Tesla makes money is when people with those cars go to charge at the Tesla superchargers.
stetrain 3y ago
This basically seems to be a case of Tesla truly opening up their connector standard, marrying it with the existing standardized CCS communications instead of their previous proprietary communications, and using the carrot of access to their charging network to get other manufacturers onboard for the North American market. There are some governmental pressures to use interoperable connectors used by multiple brands if you want to be eligible for federal infrastructure EV charger funding. Tesla is making themselves eligible for this funding, making sure they won't be legislated into changing all of their charge connectors to CCS1 in the future, and gaining new customers to improve profitability of their charger network. Tesla is by far the fastest growing DC charging provider in the US, on track to build over 500 stations this year with each station being 8+ chargers, some with 40 or more chargers.
GuB-42 3y ago
To the best of my knowledge, it is a royalty-free, truly open standard. And it is probably the reason why other manufacturers started to use it. Tesla most likely saw the writing on the wall, standardization was inevitable, it is already the case in Europe. They have a lot to gain if that standard is theirs, so they opened it. Everybody wins, especially considering that it is also a pretty good connector. I'd say that the only drawback is that it is not the same as in Europe, but since cars rarely cross the Atlantic, it is not a big deal.

throw0101c 3y ago

This is / will be SAE J3400: > This document covers the general physical, electrical, functional, and performance requirements for conductive power transfer to an electric vehicle using a handheld conductive coupler capable of transferring either DC or single-phase power using two current-carrying contacts. * https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3400/ https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3400/

throwaway128128 3y ago

I don't understand how all these makers are "adopting" the standard in cases where V2L is a huge selling point for their cars. NACS' implementation of V2L is literally a TODO in their "specification" doc. I'm not joking. https://www.autoevolution.com/news/as-carmakers-embrace-nacs-standard-bi-directional-charging-is-the-elephant-in-the-room-216870.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/as-carmakers-embrace-nacs...

stetrain 3y ago
They can implement V2L in the exact same way they were going to do it with the CCS connector. CCS did not specify a single way to do V2L, and current implementations by Hyundai, Ford, etc. are not standardized or brand-interoperable. While I would prefer an interoperable V2L standard, NACS is not a change for the worse in that regard. It does not prevent manufacturers from implementing whatever V2L system they wish on top of the NACS connector.
- fomine3 3y ago
  Meanwhile standardized Chademo V2X is a thing since about a decade ago.. I don't know why they still behind for it.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    Because they offer free charging for financially literate customers. The customers are going to abuse it. In their typical corporate fashion, they don't use languages to communicate on that topic.
    - pests 3y ago
      Who offers free charging?
- kccqzy 3y ago
  EDIT: I was wrong. Please see below for correction. ORIGINAL COMMENT: That's not true. You can buy a generic Lectron V2L unit that will work for both Hyundai and Ford and other brands. It's based on J1772 and it's a simple adapter.

GravityLab 3y ago

Congratulations Tesla! Really cool that you opened up the standard and it's now being adopted by others in the space. This is great.

sixothree 3y ago
Not sure how “cool” it is when they were forced to do so. I have a hard time believing the enthusiasm is genuine here.
- nxm 3y ago
  How exactly were they forced to adopt it?
  - sixothree 3y ago
    It would be cool if you could find that information yourself. It's not hidden from view.

kuon 3y ago

What I am wondering is when electric car will become as cheap as ICE. I'm installing solar panels and even if I charge an electric car 100% at home, a similar ICE car is nearly 20% cheaper (factoring all costs). If you charge outside it's more expensive than gas. For example, a Renault Zoe, 50kWh about 40$ to charge here, 350km range (what manufacturer says), so about 11$ per 100km, my space star uses 4.5l per 100km or 8.5$ (actually measured consumption). But the space star was 14k new, Zoe is 33k. (Insurance and tax the same). This is a genuine question, I have been wanting to go electric for long, but it is still a luxury. And I haven't even taken into account older cars you can buy for a few k $. What is the strategy? Will government make ice more expensive? Ban them? EU is already backpedaling on goals for all electric.

sowbug 3y ago
They're already cheaper. The base trims of the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y are now less expensive than the average gas car in the US: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/electric-vehicles/teslas-are-now-cheaper-than-the-average-new-gas-powered-car https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/electric-vehicles/tesla.... That's before any tax incentives. (This is purchase price. I don't know which math you're using for your "factoring all costs" conclusion, so I have no opinion about that comparison.)
- slaw 3y ago
  5-Year Ownership Costs Tesla 3 - $49,763 Toyota Corolla - $32,286 Corolla is nicer, more comfortable and reliable car. https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401919101&veh2=401921005 https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401919101&veh2...
  - LeafItAlone 3y ago
    > Corolla is nicer, more comfortable I drove a Corolla for years (about a decade ago) and recently got to drive a Model 3 for a week. I disagree with your assessment of nicer and more comfortable. Model 3 wins there for me. But in my long experience with a Corolla and short experience with a Model 3, I will agree with the Corolla being more reliable.

thelastgallon 3y ago

Several threads in the comments about Tesla's loan. To put that in proper context .. Chrysler Bailout of 1979, $1.5 billion In 2008, $17.4 billion bailout to General Motors and Chrysler In 2009, $3 billion, cash for clunkers Ford's loan: $5.9 Billion, September 2009, Loan fully repaid in June 2022. (~13 years) https://www.energy.gov/lpo/ford https://www.energy.gov/lpo/ford Nissan loan: $1.45 billion, Jan 2010, repaid Sep 2017 https://www.energy.gov/lpo/nissan https://www.energy.gov/lpo/nissan Total net to date: -12.4B (https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/category/Auto%20Company https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/category/Auto%2...), losses from ICE manufacturers. Tesla's loan: $465 million, January 2010, Loan fully repaid in May 2013 (~3.5 years) https://www.energy.gov/lpo/tesla https://www.energy.gov/lpo/tesla There are quite possibly a lot more if we dig up the ~100 years of ICE manufacturing history. Also, don't forget the $7 trillion subsidies just in 2022 for fossil fuels: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-10-16/climate-change-why-are-governments-still-subsidizing-fossil-fuels?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-10-16/climat... And ethanol subsidies! The federal government pays oil companies about $6 billion a year to blend ethanol into your gasoline; it's been subsidizing ethanol for 33 years now: https://www.npr.org/2011/07/21/138543233/ethanol-industry-torn-over-losing-subsidy-billions https://www.npr.org/2011/07/21/138543233/ethanol-industry-to... And billions of dollars to oil companies for carbon capture. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/07/29/ford-government-loan-department-energy-debt/5526413002/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/07/29/ford-... https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/19/bush-bails-out-us-automakers-dec-19-2008-1066932 https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/19/bush-bails-out-us-... Final tally: Taxpayers auto bailout loss $9.3B https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/12/30/auto-bailout-tarp-gm-chrysler/21061251/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/12/30/auto-ba...

1970-01-01 3y ago
>In 2009, $3 billion, cash for clunkers I expect to see cash for clunkers 2: electric boogaloo around 2030. Once the charging infra and the grid is ready, it makes a lot of sense to disincentivize ICE ownership.

1970-01-01 3y ago

A true domino effect has occurred in the market, and in less than one year. Stellantis, VW, and Lucid are now looking at each other to see who will have the absolute worst bargaining position with Tesla.

jonnycomputer 3y ago

I think I still wish that battery-swapping was the main "refueling" method; I hear that battery swapping infrastructure is being built up in parts of Asia for small vehicles (like scooters and mopeds). I mean, theoretically, simply swapping out batteries--and just paying a fee to the batter swapper station--would work very efficiently (and quickly). Coordination problem maybe.

dcow 3y ago
Won’t charge times be like sub 10 minutes with the upcoming 1000V power capabilities? Though what would be really clutch about battery swapping is that the overhead of battery maintenance could be offloaded from the owner and amortized into the price of a swap. I imagine there would have to be a battery standard so that cells could be serviced at an individual level on the swap provider’s end during maintenance.
- kccqzy 3y ago
  No. Not until we get to solid state batteries. There already are 800V batteries from multiple brands (Porsche, Hyundai, Kia to list a few) yet charge times have remained near 20 minutes.
  - Schiendelman 3y ago
    Most supercharger stops are less than 10 minutes anyway. Very few people are ever charging their battery at a supercharger from 5% to 80%. They’re putting a little bit more in so that they make it all the way home.
    - dcow 3y ago
      Not on a road trip. You primarily charge from 10 to 80% at like 250kw and it takes 15-20 min.
      - Schiendelman 3y ago

kenhwang 3y ago

There's an embarrassing amount of confusion and misunderstanding in this thread for what is supposedly a technically savvy audience. The current Tesla charging standard is not NACS. NACS is a new standard based on CCS protocol with Tesla's plug hardware (SAE J3400 connector). There are very few Superchargers that support NACS, they're mostly still on the old Tesla standard. This means the US and Europe essentially have the same charging software, with different plugs on top. All the automakers already had to and intended to only support CCS. Tesla's plug just makes more sense for the US's 1-phase power compared to the bulkier CCS plug which is designed for 3-phase power. NACS is just using better hardware with the software they already have.

josephcsible 3y ago
> The current Tesla charging standard is not NACS. > NACS is a new standard based on CCS protocol with Tesla's plug hardware (SAE J3400 connector). > There are very few Superchargers that support NACS, they're mostly still on the old Tesla standard. Are you sure about that? If so, can you cite a source explaining the difference between the current Tesla charging standard and NACS? Because that's contrary to everything I've read about it before. E.g., https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-s... says this: > We invite charging network operators and vehicle manufacturers to put the Tesla charging connector and charge port, now called the North American Charging Standard (NACS), on their equipment and vehicles. NACS is the most common charging standard in North America: NACS vehicles outnumber CCS two-to-one, and Tesla's Supercharging network has 60% more NACS posts than all the CCS-equipped networks combined.
Kirby64 3y ago
As far as I’m aware, any V3 superchargers (and the upcoming V4 ones) support CCS/NACS fully. Only V2 ones do not support this, and Tesla hasn’t been deploying V2 superchargers for a few years now. Anything rated for 250kW is a V3 supercharger.
- kenhwang 3y ago
  V3 supports Tesla's implementation of "NACS", which is not what was opened up to everyone. You're more than welcome to grab a NACS-CCS conversion plug to try, it won't work because it's not speaking NACS protocol, it only has the NACS connector. Right now there's only a handful of "magic dock" truly CCS/NACS compatible superchargers that speaks the CCS/NACS protocol that works with non-Tesla vehicles[1]. 1: https://www.plugshare.com/map/tesla-ccs-locations https://www.plugshare.com/map/tesla-ccs-locations

aitchnyu 3y ago

Will older cars be retrofitted to new charger?

photonbeam 3y ago
Unlikely, perhaps you might find an aftermarket service in the future