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I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's g

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren't. You can see a wiring scheme of how symmetry is handled [1]; literally manufactures are going to cheap out and not do that and you have 1-way USB-C cables without any kind of orientation markers. An obviously key'd connector like firewire / ethernet would've solved all of USB-A's flip it thrice problems. And this could've been allowed in a backwards compatible where old USB-A cables were basically a skeleton key and the new USB-A cables had a ward that blocked them from fitting incorrectly. [1]: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/125011/how-does-usb-type-c-handle-reverse-polarity-signal-duplication https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/125011/how-d...

mbar84 3y ago
I wish they would even just have standardised on a colour coding or label system or something, so people could find out what a cable supports.
slikrick 3y ago
USBC has been out for over a decade, have you ever run into 2)
- hnbear 3y ago
  My keyboard came with a usb A to usb C cable which is proprietary in some way. A regular cable doesn’t work for it.
- Izkata 3y ago
  Up until this year I've had exactly 3 USB-C cables: Nintendo Switch, which is always plugged into its dock; laptop charger, also always plugged in at my desk; and phone charger. No real room for the mistakes they're describing.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    Nintendo Switch is non-compliant [1] so you've already seen (2) it just hasn't been a big enough problem to be visible to you. I suspect a big reason for that is the Switch is a wall<->USB-C charger so you don't try to connect it between many USB-C devices. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_switch_is_not_usbc_compliant_and_overdraws/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_...
    - Izkata 3y ago
      I was responding to the "out for over a decade" part; how long they've been available doesn't mean much if they haven't been very common for consumer electronics for that long. Up until this year I've had only 1 such cable, my phone charger, that could get mixed up in any way... and that one couldn't be mixed up because I didn't have a second unused cable to mix it up with.
      - Ajedi32 3y ago
        I've been using USB-C on basically every consumer electronics device I've used over nearly the past decade. Over the years I have accumulated: 1. A laptop with a USB-C power/data/DisplayPort port 2. A phone with a USB-C power/data port 3. Multiple USB power banks which use a single USB-C port for both charging and discharging 4. A smartwatch with a dock that uses USB-C 5. Multiple flashlights with USB-C charging 6. Multiple bluetooth speakers with USB-C charging 7. A pair of earbuds with a case that uses USB-C charging 8. Dozens of various USB-C cables and power bricks, some of which came included with the products above So far I've had zero issues with any of them. Sure, not all cables support full charging speeds/data rates, but generally speaking I can just plug things in and expect them to work in some fashion. Maybe to iPhone users USB-C feels like a new thing? To everyone else it's been a mature ecosystem for a long time now, which is why a lot of the comments in this thread commenting about it as if it's a brand new, unproven technology seem very strange to me. Edit: Just remembered I also have an air duster and an electric toothbrush that use USB-C. Those didn't immediately occur to me because I don't have to charge them often. There might be more I'm forgetting...
quietbritishjim 3y ago
I can certainly see (1) happening, especially with cables that come with the device they are expected to plug into. It already widely happens with fallback to slower bit rate or lower power charging. But (2) seems very unlikely. Most consumers just won't even consider that it has an orientation, and after it fails a few times chuck it in the bin or send it back. If it comes with a device (i.e. printer or monitor comes with a non-reversible cable) they're likely to send the whole device back. That would be a ridiculous false economy for the manufacturer.
- gpderetta 3y ago
  I had a USB-C Xiaomi phone that at some point only allowed being plugged in in one orientation. I guess one side failed, but then again, that wasn't the only failing of that phone, nor even close to the most annoying.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    That might not have been a symmetry problem per-say. It could be that the phone correct determined the orientation but a pin was dirty/broken so it couldn't be used. When flipping the cable around the pin in use changes to one that isn't dirty/broken and so it works fine. USB-C may have a ton of pins but that doesn't mean all of them are needed to charge so flipping it can move a broken pin into the unused pins.
    - gpderetta 3y ago
      oh, yes, very likely it was a broken or dirty pin (that's what I mean with "failed"). I wouldn't be surprised if it was somehow a software problem as well (apparently for simplicity) some cheap USB-C port setups are wired as two ports.
- usrusr 3y ago
  (1) as in Video only, as in they won't work to top up the battery in random Bluetooth gadgets and the like? Amongst compliant cables, you might occasionally find some that are rated 40 Gbps but do not identify as high voltage capable. But I suspect that once manufacturers stomach the wire cost of those fat 40+ cables (display!), skimping out on PD capability just won't make enough of a difference to abandon efficiencies of scale. PD cables that are no/low bandwidth? Sure, those will be with us forever. But "display only" will be a rarity.
yreg 3y ago
HDMI flashbacks… The solution is - I guess - to buy plenty of 'good' multipurpose cables and throw anything that doesn't work as expected away.
lloeki 3y ago
> There's going to be video-only cables From my understanding I think that is not technically possible because to pass video they need the data lines but maybe I'm mistaken? IIUC again even if it did work I think these would be non-compliant. People hell-bent on doing non-compliant things would do it irrespective of any design. > low-voltage only cables That's a given due to physical constraints (length, diameter: would you accept that all cables are 0.8m / thick and unbendable). It was so with USB-A too, as well as non-standard power delivery, at the risk of setting things on fire or destroying devices. USB-PD makes it so that you basically can't fry anything or melt a cable, it falls back to the best possible through negotiation. But then again, people hell-bent on doing non-compliant things would do it irrespective of any design. > literally manufactures are going to cheap out and not do that and you have 1-way USB-C cables without any kind of orientation markers. Non-compliant for sure. Ah, yes, people hell-bent on doing non-compliant things would do it irrespective of any design. At least with USB-C+USB-4+USB-PD we get a fighting chance. > An obviously key'd connector like firewire / ethernet would've solved all of USB-A's flip it thrice problems Rumour has it that USB-B which is keyed, has five positions due to squareness. FireWire and Ethernet have the same state superpositions as USB-A. Hell I've seen people shove an Ethernet cable the wrong way in and have it fit (breaking the infamous clip in the process). USB-C? I lay it basically flat and clip it in, barely looking at the connector and not even taking a glance at the port. Worst case it needs a few degrees rotation.
- dharmab 3y ago
  > From my understanding I think that is not technically possible because to pass video they need the data lines but maybe I'm mistaken? Counterexample: The Meta Quest link cables use a USB-C style connector but internally are very different from a regular cable.
  - slikrick 3y ago
    and that can happen with literally every cable, people have abused USB-A and RJ45 for many decades...
    - 3y ago
addicted 3y ago
Maybe it’s news to iPhone people (and I say this as someone whose only used iPhones since he got a smartphone over a decade ago other than for 6 months where I used a Windows phone and 3 months of an Android phone), USB-C wasn’t invented with the iPhone 15. It’s been around a long time and most people have managed just fine, and absolutely loved the common cable. And everyone hated the iPhone user because you had to pull out a new cable to charge it.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Grab a random USB C cable. Now answer a few questions. 1. What speed does the cable support? 2. How much data does the cable support? 3. Can it support video over USB-C?
  - hedora 3y ago
    4. Is it capable of charging this device? 5. Is it capable of charging devices when plugged into this charger? 6. If it can charge this combination of things, what wattage can it charge at?
    - zlsa 3y ago
      4. Yes, all USB-C to USB-C cables can charge at a minimum of 60W which should be sufficient to charge almost anything 5. It depends, but the output capacity is printed on the power supply[0]. (Compare to USB-A, where the most you could do is 12W.) 6. The minimum of the cable (60W for any cable, 100W for some cables, 240W for a very few[1]) and the charger [0] Annoyingly, this problem is compounded when using a power supply that can output (say) 100W on one USB-C port, but when both are used, the limit on the two ports is 60W / 40W. [1] There are vanishingly few products (power supplies, cables, and devices) that support USB EPR. If you have one of these, just use the power supply and cable the device came with; this is no worse a situation than with devices that used proprietary power cables.
      - Max-q 3y ago
        4) A USB 2 cable with USB-C in both ends can't 60W.
tuyiown 3y ago
Not ideal for sure but I don't see the cable disaster you claim, specifically what clear improvement you would have with multiplication of connectors. Connectors, cheap and reliable are hard to design, and there's that much solution that works, and economics of scale works wonderfully by this kind of mass production (the good enough converges to reliable cheap). Also, the backward compatibility is real, and not to be dismissed too lightly. Say, for an USB-A connector, would really go one way where a USB 3 cable and device should NOT work with your older computer ? There will be waste, there will be disgruntlement, but at real diagnostic will be possible (instead of the vague indications like «use provided cable» we have for HDMI and DisplayPort). For power, you can already find cable with a mini LED display on the plug to show max wattage once plugged. Limited cables will quickly have label to show their specific capability (4K/8K, for PD only, 100W 60W), for cables you buy. General case for cables provided by manufacturer is, you keep you cable with the device, no real confusion here. I know many have the cable drawer full of just-in-case that never comes that would dream to have it blissfully replaced by unlabeled USB-C cables, but this is just not how general people handle the problem. They keep the cable with the device, and learn what they need before or after buying a replacement, or better, asking someone in a shop, those still exists for all I know.
tzs 3y ago
I wish there was a requirement that USB C cables must have sort of ID chip that can be easily read that tells what the cable supports, so that we could have simple testers that you can plug a cable into and be told what speed and power it supports.
- tomjakubowski 3y ago
  If you have two USB-C ports on one computer which both support "everything", could you write a cable tester in software?
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  That exists. It's called an e-marker and you can buy testers for about $60 that will read it for you. If a cable doesn't have one of those markers then odds are it can't handle over 5 amps or USB 2.0 speeds. It is kind of annoying that that functionality isn't built into phones and PCs though. There was some talk about building support into the Linux kernel[1] but it doesn't seem like that went anywhere. [1]: https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c-cables-are-there-usb4-update-september-12 https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c...
- ianburrell 3y ago
  Except for power, that is all determinable from the cable itself. USB-C cable supports power and USB2 data. Resistor determines the power, either legacy USB, 1.5A or 3A. Every USB-C cables support that. If there are USB3 pins connected, then it supports USB3 data and alternate mode. I think USB3 has negotiation protocol to figure out the data rate. There is also negotiation about power delivery on USB-C specific pins.
- Max-q 3y ago
  USB C with USB 3 had an id chip. If the cable does not have a chip, it is good old USB 2.
Ajedi32 3y ago
I had to do a double take after reading this comment to make sure I wasn't reading an old thread from 2014 or something. USB-C has been out for years now and neither of these predictions have come to pass. Your comment aged poorly before you even finished writing it. USB-C isn't without its problems, but neither of those are one of them.
- mbar84 3y ago
  I have one USB-C cable that I know can be used to charge my laptop. I can't grab any old USB-C cable and use it to charge from my the exact same power brick. I have other cables from USB-C to Display-Port and I know only of one that does 2160p@60hz.
- alanbernstein 3y ago
  I own a usb-c male to usb-c female extension cable that I connect to a yubikey. The yubikey only works in one orientation. I don't have any other bits to test hypotheses with, but I believe the cable was made with the symmetry problem described above.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    Usb-c to usb-c extensions are currently explicitly prohibited by standard, both because of issues like this and ways that they defeat safety mechanisms with charging.
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    AFAIK there's no such thing as a standards compliant USB-C male to USB-C female extension cable. The very concept goes against the spec[1]. You have a point though; I'm sure there are abominations out there that abuse the USB spec in all sorts of interesting ways, they just haven't been something I've encountered in my years of using USB-C for everything. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/10xj74r/why_dont_usbc_extension_cables_work/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/10xj74r/why_d...
    - alanbernstein 3y ago
jmbwell 3y ago
3) The most fragile part (the wafer in the center of the receptacle) is on the expensive-to-repair device, while the least fragile part is on the cheap-to-replace cable. HDMI makes this same mistake. With USB-A, at least the plastic part on the device is relatively robust, and with Lightning, both plug and socket were rather robust (albeit prone to debris incursion). With older pin-type connectors like VGA and DVI, the fragile pins are completely on the replaceable cable.
- bandrami 3y ago
  The worst connector for that problem is those ----ing antenna leads your laptop has for an M2 wifi card.
  - nyanpasu64 3y ago
    I broke the ring on a M.2 Wi-Fi card, but installed the cable onto it anyway. I think the part I bent off will probably rip off and get stuck in the cable the next time I take the connector off the card. Here's hoping I'll never have to do that...
  - jdfellow 3y ago
    I believe those are MCX. My Shure SE215 IEMs (earphones) use the same connector.
  - CarVac 3y ago
    Those connectors are good for one connection and no disconnections.
- petee 3y ago
  Im not sure this is true, the part in the cable is just tiny pins and far more vulnerable than the wafer. For years now I've dug woodchips and other junk out of my phones usb-c socket with paperclips and never came close to damage. It seems sufficiently recessed to prevent all but the most aggressive attack. Edit: in fact, trying now it seems to be perfectly recessed that I can't even push on it from an angle with the connector, it has to go straight in a bit before it even touches, on any of my devices
Nextgrid 3y ago
The standard is also just terrible even if followed to the letter. The connectors are just too fragile for a day-to-day interconnect, and a fire risk when higher currents are involved. I've now had to replace 2 USB-C host ports (on expensive Apple devices, where an "official" repair would cost ~50% of the value of the device) despite taking reasonable care of my devices (under which care no other connectors ever failed). Examining them under a magnifying glass showed that the metal pin delaminated from the plastic middle part of the host connector and was ever so slightly skewed towards the adjacent pin, presumably making enough contact/interference to make the whole thing fail. In a sane design, a misalignment/skew of <1mm would be well within tolerance and would be a non-issue. Worse, despite the machine being from the same brand that ushered all this crap onto the world, there is no software support or notification to say that something is wrong - the machine just silently stopped charging after a random delay. Very annoying when you plug your machine in to charge and only realize (at the most inconvenient time) that it silently stopped charging and you've now drained whatever battery was remaining. Even with the new ports, I can make it lose Thunderbolt/DisplayPort connection by bumping the connector. It's probably a mismatch of tolerances between connector and port (maybe my cables are out of spec), but it's never been a problem with any other connector.
- petee 3y ago
  Are you using Apple, or major-vendor cables? Im curious because delamination of a pin on 2 separate ports implies something catching/dragging on it, maybe there is something either poorly designed, or simply mangled in the end of one of your cables.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    Major vendor cables, and the delamination was one connector's "finger" so not really cable-specific. The second connector looked fine at casual glance but there was something wrong with it as it wouldn't even hold connection with a USB2 device - too much slack. I don't recall having this issue with any of the connectors it replaced. I have devices that are close to a decade old and all their USB/Ethernet/HDMI ports are still working just fine. It's a terrible design that prioritizes form over function/reliability.
npunt 3y ago
I think this is a bit hyperbolic. Once you try to implement any standard in practice to billions of people & devices you're going to find the same constraints and similar trade-offs everywhere. Manufacturers are going to cheap out, always. There's no way around the fact that goods can get on the market claiming a thing that it doesn't do (perfectly) in practice. Tech is littered with semi-compliance. I hate to kick the can down to 'let consumers figure it out' but there's hardly a realistic alternative, you just can't police ~10 billion cables sold a year across ~10 million retailers. I haven't heard of your first example anywhere actually happening, it sounds theoretical more than widespread in practice in 2023, 8 years into this USB-C thing. As far as cables with different capabilities, what is the alternative here? 1. Physics of signaling demand certain capabilities require higher quality / more expensive cables. Zero chance you get people or manufacturers lined up around the idea of highest common denominator (e.g. 40gbps capable $30 cable when consumer wants a $3 charging cable), and that's sorta moot anyway because... 2. Standards evolve, and we're all tired of playing the game we've played for 50 years in tech of new physical connectors every few years. It's either a) you have the same physical connector and different cables, or b) different physical connectors that briefly use the same cables before they become differentiated when standards evolve. The reality is 'it works but not as good' (speed or charge-wise) is a superior tradeoff to 'I have to buy a totally different cable' in the high % of use cases where 'not as good' is possible, which is stuff like 'charge my phone' or 'plug my printer/audio device/whatever in'. Honestly the only unforced errors I see with USB-C are consumer education related. USB versioning should be simple (3, 4, 5) not intentionally obtuse ("3.2 gen 2x2"), and something like iconography should be added to indicate premium cable capability (specific higher voltage & bandwidth capabilities) to avoid to play the plug in and try it game.
- p1mrx 3y ago
  USB-IF should publish a table of every possible cable/adapter/receptacle type, with a short alphanumeric code that can be printed or molded onto the connector. The set of permutations is too large to fit into an icon, but a lookup table allows for unlimited detail.
  - crote 3y ago
omnibrain 3y ago
This could have been as well been a prediction 8 years ago, because in the mean time all of this happened. regarding 1) look at this post from 2019: https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c-cables-are-there-usb4-update-september-12 https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c... I imagine it only got worse in the mean time. regarding 2) I have seen various posts in the past of devices that only work if the cables are connected in a specific orientation. Technical background is discussed here: https://acroname.com/blog/why-usb-c-connections-sometimes-dont-work https://acroname.com/blog/why-usb-c-connections-sometimes-do...
lxgr 3y ago
> There's going to be video-only cables There is no such thing for USB-C. > low-voltage only cables As far as I know, only the amperage is negotiated; every compliant cable needs to support at least 20 V. And even then, the minimum is also 3 A, which allows for 60 W to be carried on even the cheapest cables – enough for many use cases. I actually like having lighter and more flexible cables for most of my devices. > The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren't. You can see a wiring scheme of how symmetry is handled [1]; literally manufactures are going to cheap out and not do that and you have 1-way USB-C cables without any kind of orientation markers. With all the many USB-C headaches I’ve heard of (and only very rarely encountered myself), I’ve never seen that happen. The most common problem must be using a USB 2 only cable for a use case that requires USB 3 speeds and/or video.
School-Cotton 3y ago
Yes and even worse, now EU bureaucrats have mandated that Apple give up their resistance and support this inferior connector.
- ZekeSulastin 3y ago
  Apple is one of the companies that helped design USB-C and have been using it for everything except iPhones and AirPods for years now.
Findecanor 3y ago
USB-C plugs are supposed to have 2.0 data pins only on one side. It is only the sockets that should have them on both sides. The other data pins are negotiated. When USB-C was brand new, I got a flawed breakout board where only the socket's data pins on one side were connected. I did not notice it until it was soldered together and the device got power but no connection when the cable was connected in one orientation. But then I had already built a metal case to fit that breakout board perfectly, so I just left it in.
bigstrat2003 3y ago
> There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. Whether or not this happens, it will have nothing to do with USB-C's merits as a connector. You could (theoretically) have the same mess happen with USB-A connectors as well.
sillywalk 3y ago
Not to mention the entire USB naming scheme. USB 3 ? or 3x3 or 2x or ...with Thunderbolt or not...
jdjdjdhhd 3y ago
I need a round USB connector
andersrs 3y ago
But we tried the port for each use case thing in the 90s and it sucks. VGA, Printer port, ps/2 for mouse etc. It's pretty easy for me to tell which usb cable works with my monitor dock because it's a really thick one.
TulliusCicero 3y ago
Everyone here constantly complains about USB-C any time it comes up, but my experience has been that it's fucking awesome that so many of my devices have the same cable type: phone, tablet, laptops, USB battery packs, VR headset, Switch, Deck, various game controllers, various retro game handhelds, portable monitor, antigen COVID-19 detector, car battery starter, all kinds of stuff really. And now that lightning is going the way of the dodo, soon I'll finally be able to consolidate to basically just the one cable type for trips.
crote 3y ago
USB-C is actually surprisingly tricky to screw up. For example, video-only cables are only possible if they have active electronics - so that means you are buying a very expensive cable which somehow doesn't follow the specs. I know Monoprice does make one, but it starts at $115 and it is explicitly marketed and labelled as video-only. Low-voltage cables are the same thing. All passive cables can do 100W using 20V, and the 240W ones using 48V are explicitly marketed as such. There are some optical cables which do not transfer power at all, but again you're looking at specialized >$100 stuff. You don't just accidentally grab one of these out of your Box Of Cables. As far as I am aware, no cable manufacturer cheaped out on the wiring because there is zero reason to. You can't simplify USB 2 cables like that, and anyone selling USB 3 cables wants all pins for it to actually be usable as a data cable. The biggest problem with USB-C is that the USB Implementers Forum created a very clear design to indicate exactly what each device and cable is capable of - but then manufacturers decided it was ugly and just completely ignored it. If everyone just followed the damn spec there wouldn't be nearly as much confusion.
- fragmede 3y ago
  > You don't just accidentally grab one of these out of your Box Of Cables. Yes you do. You set up the studio and wire it all up, with all of the devices, and with the right $100 wires and $30 wires and $2 wires. (Along with $50k in equipment.) But then you need to move out for some reason, so you tear it all down and it all gets boxed up and loaded into a truck and then you have nowhere to set that studio back up so then you end up with a box of cables in your living room that then gets shoved into your closet. Now you have a box of cables, some more expensive than others and you are just gonna randomly grab one until you find one with the right ends on but now also the right innards as well which means you'll have to test it. I am not looking forwards to looking at a tangle of usb-c cables and extracting the one that actually meets my needs. Still better than trying to pull a DB9 through, but still.
carstenhag 3y ago
Bonus: Buy 5 phones from 2023 with their chargers. Buy 5 random USB-C cables. Use 5 cables that were shipped with random stuff (rechargeable lamp, etc). In my experience you can barely get the phones to survive without their "own" wall charger + cable combination. It's really terrible. I don't understand how a 120€, 140W MacBook usb-c can't charge my OnePlus 8 at all. Not even with 5V 1A.

mbar84 3y ago

I wish they would even just have standardised on a colour coding or label system or something, so people could find out what a cable supports.

slikrick 3y ago

USBC has been out for over a decade, have you ever run into 2)

hnbear 3y ago
My keyboard came with a usb A to usb C cable which is proprietary in some way. A regular cable doesn’t work for it.
Izkata 3y ago
Up until this year I've had exactly 3 USB-C cables: Nintendo Switch, which is always plugged into its dock; laptop charger, also always plugged in at my desk; and phone charger. No real room for the mistakes they're describing.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  Nintendo Switch is non-compliant [1] so you've already seen (2) it just hasn't been a big enough problem to be visible to you. I suspect a big reason for that is the Switch is a wall<->USB-C charger so you don't try to connect it between many USB-C devices. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_switch_is_not_usbc_compliant_and_overdraws/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_...
  - Izkata 3y ago
    I was responding to the "out for over a decade" part; how long they've been available doesn't mean much if they haven't been very common for consumer electronics for that long. Up until this year I've had only 1 such cable, my phone charger, that could get mixed up in any way... and that one couldn't be mixed up because I didn't have a second unused cable to mix it up with.
    - Ajedi32 3y ago
      I've been using USB-C on basically every consumer electronics device I've used over nearly the past decade. Over the years I have accumulated: 1. A laptop with a USB-C power/data/DisplayPort port 2. A phone with a USB-C power/data port 3. Multiple USB power banks which use a single USB-C port for both charging and discharging 4. A smartwatch with a dock that uses USB-C 5. Multiple flashlights with USB-C charging 6. Multiple bluetooth speakers with USB-C charging 7. A pair of earbuds with a case that uses USB-C charging 8. Dozens of various USB-C cables and power bricks, some of which came included with the products above So far I've had zero issues with any of them. Sure, not all cables support full charging speeds/data rates, but generally speaking I can just plug things in and expect them to work in some fashion. Maybe to iPhone users USB-C feels like a new thing? To everyone else it's been a mature ecosystem for a long time now, which is why a lot of the comments in this thread commenting about it as if it's a brand new, unproven technology seem very strange to me. Edit: Just remembered I also have an air duster and an electric toothbrush that use USB-C. Those didn't immediately occur to me because I don't have to charge them often. There might be more I'm forgetting...

quietbritishjim 3y ago

I can certainly see (1) happening, especially with cables that come with the device they are expected to plug into. It already widely happens with fallback to slower bit rate or lower power charging. But (2) seems very unlikely. Most consumers just won't even consider that it has an orientation, and after it fails a few times chuck it in the bin or send it back. If it comes with a device (i.e. printer or monitor comes with a non-reversible cable) they're likely to send the whole device back. That would be a ridiculous false economy for the manufacturer.

gpderetta 3y ago
I had a USB-C Xiaomi phone that at some point only allowed being plugged in in one orientation. I guess one side failed, but then again, that wasn't the only failing of that phone, nor even close to the most annoying.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  That might not have been a symmetry problem per-say. It could be that the phone correct determined the orientation but a pin was dirty/broken so it couldn't be used. When flipping the cable around the pin in use changes to one that isn't dirty/broken and so it works fine. USB-C may have a ton of pins but that doesn't mean all of them are needed to charge so flipping it can move a broken pin into the unused pins.
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    oh, yes, very likely it was a broken or dirty pin (that's what I mean with "failed"). I wouldn't be surprised if it was somehow a software problem as well (apparently for simplicity) some cheap USB-C port setups are wired as two ports.
usrusr 3y ago
(1) as in Video only, as in they won't work to top up the battery in random Bluetooth gadgets and the like? Amongst compliant cables, you might occasionally find some that are rated 40 Gbps but do not identify as high voltage capable. But I suspect that once manufacturers stomach the wire cost of those fat 40+ cables (display!), skimping out on PD capability just won't make enough of a difference to abandon efficiencies of scale. PD cables that are no/low bandwidth? Sure, those will be with us forever. But "display only" will be a rarity.

yreg 3y ago

HDMI flashbacks… The solution is - I guess - to buy plenty of 'good' multipurpose cables and throw anything that doesn't work as expected away.

lloeki 3y ago

> There's going to be video-only cables From my understanding I think that is not technically possible because to pass video they need the data lines but maybe I'm mistaken? IIUC again even if it did work I think these would be non-compliant. People hell-bent on doing non-compliant things would do it irrespective of any design. > low-voltage only cables That's a given due to physical constraints (length, diameter: would you accept that all cables are 0.8m / thick and unbendable). It was so with USB-A too, as well as non-standard power delivery, at the risk of setting things on fire or destroying devices. USB-PD makes it so that you basically can't fry anything or melt a cable, it falls back to the best possible through negotiation. But then again, people hell-bent on doing non-compliant things would do it irrespective of any design. > literally manufactures are going to cheap out and not do that and you have 1-way USB-C cables without any kind of orientation markers. Non-compliant for sure. Ah, yes, people hell-bent on doing non-compliant things would do it irrespective of any design. At least with USB-C+USB-4+USB-PD we get a fighting chance. > An obviously key'd connector like firewire / ethernet would've solved all of USB-A's flip it thrice problems Rumour has it that USB-B which is keyed, has five positions due to squareness. FireWire and Ethernet have the same state superpositions as USB-A. Hell I've seen people shove an Ethernet cable the wrong way in and have it fit (breaking the infamous clip in the process). USB-C? I lay it basically flat and clip it in, barely looking at the connector and not even taking a glance at the port. Worst case it needs a few degrees rotation.

dharmab 3y ago
> From my understanding I think that is not technically possible because to pass video they need the data lines but maybe I'm mistaken? Counterexample: The Meta Quest link cables use a USB-C style connector but internally are very different from a regular cable.
- slikrick 3y ago
  and that can happen with literally every cable, people have abused USB-A and RJ45 for many decades...
  - 3y ago

addicted 3y ago

Maybe it’s news to iPhone people (and I say this as someone whose only used iPhones since he got a smartphone over a decade ago other than for 6 months where I used a Windows phone and 3 months of an Android phone), USB-C wasn’t invented with the iPhone 15. It’s been around a long time and most people have managed just fine, and absolutely loved the common cable. And everyone hated the iPhone user because you had to pull out a new cable to charge it.

scarface_74 3y ago
Grab a random USB C cable. Now answer a few questions. 1. What speed does the cable support? 2. How much data does the cable support? 3. Can it support video over USB-C?
- hedora 3y ago
  4. Is it capable of charging this device? 5. Is it capable of charging devices when plugged into this charger? 6. If it can charge this combination of things, what wattage can it charge at?
  - zlsa 3y ago
    4. Yes, all USB-C to USB-C cables can charge at a minimum of 60W which should be sufficient to charge almost anything 5. It depends, but the output capacity is printed on the power supply[0]. (Compare to USB-A, where the most you could do is 12W.) 6. The minimum of the cable (60W for any cable, 100W for some cables, 240W for a very few[1]) and the charger [0] Annoyingly, this problem is compounded when using a power supply that can output (say) 100W on one USB-C port, but when both are used, the limit on the two ports is 60W / 40W. [1] There are vanishingly few products (power supplies, cables, and devices) that support USB EPR. If you have one of these, just use the power supply and cable the device came with; this is no worse a situation than with devices that used proprietary power cables.
    - Max-q 3y ago
      4) A USB 2 cable with USB-C in both ends can't 60W.

tuyiown 3y ago

Not ideal for sure but I don't see the cable disaster you claim, specifically what clear improvement you would have with multiplication of connectors. Connectors, cheap and reliable are hard to design, and there's that much solution that works, and economics of scale works wonderfully by this kind of mass production (the good enough converges to reliable cheap). Also, the backward compatibility is real, and not to be dismissed too lightly. Say, for an USB-A connector, would really go one way where a USB 3 cable and device should NOT work with your older computer ? There will be waste, there will be disgruntlement, but at real diagnostic will be possible (instead of the vague indications like «use provided cable» we have for HDMI and DisplayPort). For power, you can already find cable with a mini LED display on the plug to show max wattage once plugged. Limited cables will quickly have label to show their specific capability (4K/8K, for PD only, 100W 60W), for cables you buy. General case for cables provided by manufacturer is, you keep you cable with the device, no real confusion here. I know many have the cable drawer full of just-in-case that never comes that would dream to have it blissfully replaced by unlabeled USB-C cables, but this is just not how general people handle the problem. They keep the cable with the device, and learn what they need before or after buying a replacement, or better, asking someone in a shop, those still exists for all I know.

tzs 3y ago

I wish there was a requirement that USB C cables must have sort of ID chip that can be easily read that tells what the cable supports, so that we could have simple testers that you can plug a cable into and be told what speed and power it supports.

tomjakubowski 3y ago
If you have two USB-C ports on one computer which both support "everything", could you write a cable tester in software?
Ajedi32 3y ago
That exists. It's called an e-marker and you can buy testers for about $60 that will read it for you. If a cable doesn't have one of those markers then odds are it can't handle over 5 amps or USB 2.0 speeds. It is kind of annoying that that functionality isn't built into phones and PCs though. There was some talk about building support into the Linux kernel[1] but it doesn't seem like that went anywhere. [1]: https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c-cables-are-there-usb4-update-september-12 https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c...
ianburrell 3y ago
Except for power, that is all determinable from the cable itself. USB-C cable supports power and USB2 data. Resistor determines the power, either legacy USB, 1.5A or 3A. Every USB-C cables support that. If there are USB3 pins connected, then it supports USB3 data and alternate mode. I think USB3 has negotiation protocol to figure out the data rate. There is also negotiation about power delivery on USB-C specific pins.
Max-q 3y ago
USB C with USB 3 had an id chip. If the cable does not have a chip, it is good old USB 2.

Ajedi32 3y ago

I had to do a double take after reading this comment to make sure I wasn't reading an old thread from 2014 or something. USB-C has been out for years now and neither of these predictions have come to pass. Your comment aged poorly before you even finished writing it. USB-C isn't without its problems, but neither of those are one of them.

mbar84 3y ago
I have one USB-C cable that I know can be used to charge my laptop. I can't grab any old USB-C cable and use it to charge from my the exact same power brick. I have other cables from USB-C to Display-Port and I know only of one that does 2160p@60hz.
alanbernstein 3y ago
I own a usb-c male to usb-c female extension cable that I connect to a yubikey. The yubikey only works in one orientation. I don't have any other bits to test hypotheses with, but I believe the cable was made with the symmetry problem described above.
- mlyle 3y ago
  Usb-c to usb-c extensions are currently explicitly prohibited by standard, both because of issues like this and ways that they defeat safety mechanisms with charging.
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  AFAIK there's no such thing as a standards compliant USB-C male to USB-C female extension cable. The very concept goes against the spec[1]. You have a point though; I'm sure there are abominations out there that abuse the USB spec in all sorts of interesting ways, they just haven't been something I've encountered in my years of using USB-C for everything. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/10xj74r/why_dont_usbc_extension_cables_work/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/10xj74r/why_d...
  - alanbernstein 3y ago

jmbwell 3y ago

3) The most fragile part (the wafer in the center of the receptacle) is on the expensive-to-repair device, while the least fragile part is on the cheap-to-replace cable. HDMI makes this same mistake. With USB-A, at least the plastic part on the device is relatively robust, and with Lightning, both plug and socket were rather robust (albeit prone to debris incursion). With older pin-type connectors like VGA and DVI, the fragile pins are completely on the replaceable cable.

bandrami 3y ago
The worst connector for that problem is those ----ing antenna leads your laptop has for an M2 wifi card.
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  I broke the ring on a M.2 Wi-Fi card, but installed the cable onto it anyway. I think the part I bent off will probably rip off and get stuck in the cable the next time I take the connector off the card. Here's hoping I'll never have to do that...
- jdfellow 3y ago
  I believe those are MCX. My Shure SE215 IEMs (earphones) use the same connector.
- CarVac 3y ago
  Those connectors are good for one connection and no disconnections.
petee 3y ago
Im not sure this is true, the part in the cable is just tiny pins and far more vulnerable than the wafer. For years now I've dug woodchips and other junk out of my phones usb-c socket with paperclips and never came close to damage. It seems sufficiently recessed to prevent all but the most aggressive attack. Edit: in fact, trying now it seems to be perfectly recessed that I can't even push on it from an angle with the connector, it has to go straight in a bit before it even touches, on any of my devices

Nextgrid 3y ago

The standard is also just terrible even if followed to the letter. The connectors are just too fragile for a day-to-day interconnect, and a fire risk when higher currents are involved. I've now had to replace 2 USB-C host ports (on expensive Apple devices, where an "official" repair would cost ~50% of the value of the device) despite taking reasonable care of my devices (under which care no other connectors ever failed). Examining them under a magnifying glass showed that the metal pin delaminated from the plastic middle part of the host connector and was ever so slightly skewed towards the adjacent pin, presumably making enough contact/interference to make the whole thing fail. In a sane design, a misalignment/skew of <1mm would be well within tolerance and would be a non-issue. Worse, despite the machine being from the same brand that ushered all this crap onto the world, there is no software support or notification to say that something is wrong - the machine just silently stopped charging after a random delay. Very annoying when you plug your machine in to charge and only realize (at the most inconvenient time) that it silently stopped charging and you've now drained whatever battery was remaining. Even with the new ports, I can make it lose Thunderbolt/DisplayPort connection by bumping the connector. It's probably a mismatch of tolerances between connector and port (maybe my cables are out of spec), but it's never been a problem with any other connector.

petee 3y ago
Are you using Apple, or major-vendor cables? Im curious because delamination of a pin on 2 separate ports implies something catching/dragging on it, maybe there is something either poorly designed, or simply mangled in the end of one of your cables.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Major vendor cables, and the delamination was one connector's "finger" so not really cable-specific. The second connector looked fine at casual glance but there was something wrong with it as it wouldn't even hold connection with a USB2 device - too much slack. I don't recall having this issue with any of the connectors it replaced. I have devices that are close to a decade old and all their USB/Ethernet/HDMI ports are still working just fine. It's a terrible design that prioritizes form over function/reliability.

npunt 3y ago

I think this is a bit hyperbolic. Once you try to implement any standard in practice to billions of people & devices you're going to find the same constraints and similar trade-offs everywhere. Manufacturers are going to cheap out, always. There's no way around the fact that goods can get on the market claiming a thing that it doesn't do (perfectly) in practice. Tech is littered with semi-compliance. I hate to kick the can down to 'let consumers figure it out' but there's hardly a realistic alternative, you just can't police ~10 billion cables sold a year across ~10 million retailers. I haven't heard of your first example anywhere actually happening, it sounds theoretical more than widespread in practice in 2023, 8 years into this USB-C thing. As far as cables with different capabilities, what is the alternative here? 1. Physics of signaling demand certain capabilities require higher quality / more expensive cables. Zero chance you get people or manufacturers lined up around the idea of highest common denominator (e.g. 40gbps capable $30 cable when consumer wants a $3 charging cable), and that's sorta moot anyway because... 2. Standards evolve, and we're all tired of playing the game we've played for 50 years in tech of new physical connectors every few years. It's either a) you have the same physical connector and different cables, or b) different physical connectors that briefly use the same cables before they become differentiated when standards evolve. The reality is 'it works but not as good' (speed or charge-wise) is a superior tradeoff to 'I have to buy a totally different cable' in the high % of use cases where 'not as good' is possible, which is stuff like 'charge my phone' or 'plug my printer/audio device/whatever in'. Honestly the only unforced errors I see with USB-C are consumer education related. USB versioning should be simple (3, 4, 5) not intentionally obtuse ("3.2 gen 2x2"), and something like iconography should be added to indicate premium cable capability (specific higher voltage & bandwidth capabilities) to avoid to play the plug in and try it game.

p1mrx 3y ago
USB-IF should publish a table of every possible cable/adapter/receptacle type, with a short alphanumeric code that can be printed or molded onto the connector. The set of permutations is too large to fit into an icon, but a lookup table allows for unlimited detail.
- crote 3y ago

omnibrain 3y ago

This could have been as well been a prediction 8 years ago, because in the mean time all of this happened. regarding 1) look at this post from 2019: https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c-cables-are-there-usb4-update-september-12 https://people.kernel.org/bleung/now-how-many-usb-c-to-usb-c... I imagine it only got worse in the mean time. regarding 2) I have seen various posts in the past of devices that only work if the cables are connected in a specific orientation. Technical background is discussed here: https://acroname.com/blog/why-usb-c-connections-sometimes-dont-work https://acroname.com/blog/why-usb-c-connections-sometimes-do...

lxgr 3y ago

> There's going to be video-only cables There is no such thing for USB-C. > low-voltage only cables As far as I know, only the amperage is negotiated; every compliant cable needs to support at least 20 V. And even then, the minimum is also 3 A, which allows for 60 W to be carried on even the cheapest cables – enough for many use cases. I actually like having lighter and more flexible cables for most of my devices. > The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren't. You can see a wiring scheme of how symmetry is handled [1]; literally manufactures are going to cheap out and not do that and you have 1-way USB-C cables without any kind of orientation markers. With all the many USB-C headaches I’ve heard of (and only very rarely encountered myself), I’ve never seen that happen. The most common problem must be using a USB 2 only cable for a use case that requires USB 3 speeds and/or video.

School-Cotton 3y ago

Yes and even worse, now EU bureaucrats have mandated that Apple give up their resistance and support this inferior connector.

ZekeSulastin 3y ago
Apple is one of the companies that helped design USB-C and have been using it for everything except iPhones and AirPods for years now.

Findecanor 3y ago

USB-C plugs are supposed to have 2.0 data pins only on one side. It is only the sockets that should have them on both sides. The other data pins are negotiated. When USB-C was brand new, I got a flawed breakout board where only the socket's data pins on one side were connected. I did not notice it until it was soldered together and the device got power but no connection when the cable was connected in one orientation. But then I had already built a metal case to fit that breakout board perfectly, so I just left it in.

bigstrat2003 3y ago

> There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. Whether or not this happens, it will have nothing to do with USB-C's merits as a connector. You could (theoretically) have the same mess happen with USB-A connectors as well.

sillywalk 3y ago

Not to mention the entire USB naming scheme. USB 3 ? or 3x3 or 2x or ...with Thunderbolt or not...

jdjdjdhhd 3y ago

I need a round USB connector

andersrs 3y ago

But we tried the port for each use case thing in the 90s and it sucks. VGA, Printer port, ps/2 for mouse etc. It's pretty easy for me to tell which usb cable works with my monitor dock because it's a really thick one.

TulliusCicero 3y ago

Everyone here constantly complains about USB-C any time it comes up, but my experience has been that it's fucking awesome that so many of my devices have the same cable type: phone, tablet, laptops, USB battery packs, VR headset, Switch, Deck, various game controllers, various retro game handhelds, portable monitor, antigen COVID-19 detector, car battery starter, all kinds of stuff really. And now that lightning is going the way of the dodo, soon I'll finally be able to consolidate to basically just the one cable type for trips.

crote 3y ago

USB-C is actually surprisingly tricky to screw up. For example, video-only cables are only possible if they have active electronics - so that means you are buying a very expensive cable which somehow doesn't follow the specs. I know Monoprice does make one, but it starts at $115 and it is explicitly marketed and labelled as video-only. Low-voltage cables are the same thing. All passive cables can do 100W using 20V, and the 240W ones using 48V are explicitly marketed as such. There are some optical cables which do not transfer power at all, but again you're looking at specialized >$100 stuff. You don't just accidentally grab one of these out of your Box Of Cables. As far as I am aware, no cable manufacturer cheaped out on the wiring because there is zero reason to. You can't simplify USB 2 cables like that, and anyone selling USB 3 cables wants all pins for it to actually be usable as a data cable. The biggest problem with USB-C is that the USB Implementers Forum created a very clear design to indicate exactly what each device and cable is capable of - but then manufacturers decided it was ugly and just completely ignored it. If everyone just followed the damn spec there wouldn't be nearly as much confusion.

fragmede 3y ago
> You don't just accidentally grab one of these out of your Box Of Cables. Yes you do. You set up the studio and wire it all up, with all of the devices, and with the right $100 wires and $30 wires and $2 wires. (Along with $50k in equipment.) But then you need to move out for some reason, so you tear it all down and it all gets boxed up and loaded into a truck and then you have nowhere to set that studio back up so then you end up with a box of cables in your living room that then gets shoved into your closet. Now you have a box of cables, some more expensive than others and you are just gonna randomly grab one until you find one with the right ends on but now also the right innards as well which means you'll have to test it. I am not looking forwards to looking at a tangle of usb-c cables and extracting the one that actually meets my needs. Still better than trying to pull a DB9 through, but still.

carstenhag 3y ago

Bonus: Buy 5 phones from 2023 with their chargers. Buy 5 random USB-C cables. Use 5 cables that were shipped with random stuff (rechargeable lamp, etc). In my experience you can barely get the phones to survive without their "own" wall charger + cable combination. It's really terrible. I don't understand how a 120€, 140W MacBook usb-c can't charge my OnePlus 8 at all. Not even with 5V 1A.