Hacker News Search

jamal-kumar 3y ago

Why would they make their very expected functionality something you have to dig around to find now? That just seems like really bad decision making that should have been spotted by someone on top and screams that the people on top are now disconnected from reality. I swear that it used to work for certain strings I'm trying to find now which I was able to find information on and now it isn't even returning, with "verbatim" set, something that is in a very well-known program's documentation. Bing finds like three results. Google has dropped the ball so hard it's embarrassing

crazygringo 3y ago

First of all, wow. It's there (under Tools, you don't even need to go to Advanced), it works, and yet I've never once seen anybody talk about that feature's existence on HN until now. And people have been complaining about not being able to do verbatim searches for years and years here on HN. Second, I just looked up when this feature was introduced (assuming it was fairly new), and it was in... November 2011. It's been there for the past twelve years. See: https://www.wired.com/2011/11/google-verbatim-search-back/ https://www.wired.com/2011/11/google-verbatim-search-back/ https://searchengineland.com/responding-to-complaints-google-adds-verbatim-search-results-101226 https://searchengineland.com/responding-to-complaints-google... https://www.searchenginewatch.com/2011/11/18/google-introduces-verbatim-searching/ https://www.searchenginewatch.com/2011/11/18/google-introduc... Thanks for letting us know! It's been right under our noses the whole time -- and it's not like the Tools menu is even particularly hidden, at least on desktop.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

What happens if GOOG acquires Kagi?

MichaelZuo 3y ago
I'm sure many folks, including me, would be willing to help Vlad organize a private acquisition if he suddenly had some pressing need to sell.
- IAmGraydon 3y ago
  Don’t you work for Google or is that a different Michael Zuo?
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    I don't, but it's possible someone else does. I signed up for HN before it was popular to include middle initials or other fancier forms for the username, I'll update my profile though.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I love the idea I challenge you to find a group of rich folks who will fund such a thing - and will not simply demand the same profits as current structures do. I just tried this with ~30 wealthy individuals/family funds that I have great relationships with and literally everyone said some form of the following: “I am not going to liquidate my current investments that are on IPO trajectory for something that by definition will not IPO, and my investments are to ensure my kids go to private school/colllege fund/etc…” You need to convince people, who currently think that the goal of making/having money is to insulate them and their families from reality, to instead choose to make/have slightly less money so that somebody else can have an easier/better experience in a way that is still concomitant with commercial transactions.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Huh, is this story a metaphor/allegory for something? Why not 'challenge' yourself if you've already done quite a bit of groundwork? Or at least the comment suggests you've already put more thought into this than me.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      I’ve already put maximum financial and personal time inputs into my particular project, which is unfortunately insufficient to get started in earnest. I need 200k to actually start what I want and currently have 5k in my bank account and a lot of mandatory overhead (kids etc). If you’re legit interested I’ll tell you all the details 1:1
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Sure we can talk, DM me on twitter.
        AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        I actually can’t…Twitter charges for DMs now apparently Email me from the one in my profile
  - nonameiguess 3y ago
    This is really the ideal use case for nonprofit funding, but unfortunately, real-world wealthy donors tend to give to university football programs and getting their names on hospital buildings. Sadly, SMU near me just made a deal with the ACC to forego ten years of television revenue in exchange for being allowed into the conference in order to get an automatic playoff berth if they can win the conference. Boosters will fully fund the athletic department to make up for the shortfall of not receiving and television revenue. All that money could have gone to good, but rich people care more about their alma mater having a 1% chance rather than a 0% chance at a national championship.

lghh 3y ago

Weird question that I have that I'd love anyone who makes a Kagi account to trial after reading the parent comment to answer: When you make your account, you're given the option to customize. When you do, you can pick things like color theme and how URLs are displayed. On the right hand side of the page there is a preview of what your Kagi searches will look like. In my example, the demo Kagi search is Magic The Gathering. I play a lot of Magic The Gathering. I spend most of my time online searching for things related to MtG or brewing decks, second only to things related to software development. I imagine it's coincidence. MtG is a pretty nerdy hobby and Kagi seems like a pretty nerdy product. However, it made me uncomfortable enough to ask: Is that what it shows for everyone? Or is there some tracking going on already that is being demoed? It's almost certainly the former given the positioning of Kagi in the search market, but I'd like to be sure.

joshmlewis 3y ago
Yes it's what showed for me as well and I've never played or searched it. Just a coincidence.
- xenocratus 3y ago
  Just as an extra data point - same here, got shown MtG results, never played it (though I might have searched about it a few times way back).
jamal-kumar 3y ago
I'm kind of blown away by how popular that game has gotten over the past few years in North America. I think the pandemic really accelerated the popularity of that and D&D, people are still doing these things after all of that. Even saw someone playing over the phone the other day. I don't seem to remember it being so popular but now it's more than ever and hardly a surprise tbh
- lghh 3y ago
  The two biggest reasons for this are that the format Commander has specifically blown up in popularity and Wizards of the Coast making a first-party desktop/mobile client MtG Arena to compete with games like Hearthstone. Commander is a 4-player casual format that's has as much in common with more typical board games as it does with traditional MtG. Arena is likely what you saw someone playing on their phone. Funnily enough, it doesn't support Commander!
  - jamal-kumar 3y ago
    I think they were playing d&d over the phone but yeah it does look like it's alot more engaging than what I seem to remember in middle school
freediver 3y ago
Vlad here, Kagi founder. Also an avid MTG player. I came up with the idea for that preview.
- lghh 3y ago
  Hi Vlad! It's a fun nugget. I just suspect I'm in the very slim subset of people who was a little taken aback by it.
  - freediver 3y ago
    We all need a dose of healthy skepticism.
    - effingwewt 3y ago
      I know it means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but y'all just got another customer. I'd been on the fence but after reading through these threads and seeing a real reply from a founder (its been a while since I've seen an honest, non-PR Speak answer) I am excited to try y'all out. This area was ripe for disruption with how terrible searches have become, especially on mobile. I'd be happy to see you eat G's lunch here.

netsroht 3y ago

Being logged in while making search queries in search engines poses significant privacy risks. The searches can paint a comprehensive profile of the user, and these data often remain stored for extended periods. There's a chance this information might be shared with third parties. Coupled with other user data, these logged-in searches can pave the way for targeted advertising, sophisticated predictive analysis, and potential exploitation by governments or malicious entities. In the event of data breaches, the user's logged-in search histories can be exposed. Furthermore, users typically don't have clear insight into how their data is utilized when logged in. I hope Kagi introduces an anonymous access feature. For instance, it could incorporate zero-knowledge proofs (ZKPs). These are cryptographic techniques where one party (the prover) can confirm to another (the verifier) that a claim is accurate without disclosing any additional information. This is especially beneficial for authentication scenarios where it's essential to avoid sharing extra details. To implement zero-knowledge authentication for quota API access: 1. Token Creation: - Each month, users receive a token tied to their identity and quota. - The token can be split for use on multiple devices using cryptographic methods. 2. API Access: - Clients present a zero-knowledge proof (ZKP) to confirm they have a valid token and haven't used up their quota. The server verifies this without seeing the exact details. 3. Client Synchronization: - Each client tracks its quota usage. - Synchronization can be peer-to-peer or through a centralized, encrypted server to prevent double spending of the quota. 4. Quota Renewal: - Monthly, old tokens expire, and new tokens are issued. Challenges: - ZKPs can be resource-intensive. - Token security is crucial; there should be a way to handle lost or compromised tokens. - The system should prevent quota "double-spending" across devices. - If a centralized server is used for synchronization, it should operate with encrypted data. This way Kagi would only know who their customers are but not what kind of searches they make.

boredpudding 3y ago
Any system that can check balance, can link searches to a user. There's no way around it. In your case, Kagi would need to trust the client with the balance, which would be insecure. There's only one solution, and that is that you need to put a bit of trust in Kagi. Compared to the major one, Google, you can chose between one that promises to not store data, and one that promises it does (and does a lot). It's always a bit sad that here on HN, when companies try to do better than bigger players, there's always people who think it isn't enough. It has to be absolutely impossibly perfect.
- netsroht 3y ago
  I'm not a cryptography expert, but from my research, shouldn't it be possible to verify quota on ZKPs server-side? Essentially, the server doesn't need to know the specifics of the user's identity, just that they possess a valid token and haven't exceeded their quota. You can use search engines like Google without being logged in. When combined with tools like uBlock Origin and Cookie AutoDelete, it becomes more challenging for them to build a singular profile about a user, especially one tied to payment methods such as credit cards. I genuinely appreciate what Kagi is doing, and I'd absolutely be willing to pay for their service, because if you're not paying for a service, you're the product. I trust companies to uphold their privacy promises, but "Trust is good, but proof is better." ;)
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
    They key word is server side. You have no way to verify that they are not tracking sessions as an user.
  - gizmo686 3y ago
    The issue is implementing it client side. ZKP means that you cannot simply embed a token in the URL, but instead need to participate in an active protocol. You could implement this in JavaScript, but then you need to trust the JS being served from the server. Even once you do that, you have all the other tracking mechanisms that the server could use if it wanted to.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  > Any system that can check balance, can link searches to a user. For what it's worth, you can buy a physical Mullvad gift card and use that to create a very anonymous account for VPN use. Even if you buy your gift card from a major online retailer, it comes from a stack of gift cards, nothing tracks which one was sent to whom. You can also exchange gifts among friends.
- smsm42 3y ago
  > Any system that can check balance, can link searches to a user. I don't think it's true. I can immediately see at least two ways how it can be done without identifying the user. 1. Each user gets X tokens at the beginning of the month. When searching, user supplies a token, which is immediately burned. The token does not contain the user identity, just signature validating it's a valid token. 2. Variation of the above: each user gets a token good for X searches at the beginning of the month. When searching, the system will return a token good for N-1 search each time token good for N searches is presented. Again, no need to contain user identity anywhere in the system. Of course, both solutions have their downsides (sync between multiple devices, stealing tokens, losing tokens, etc.) but it id definitely possible. And I am sure if somebody spent a little time thinking on it, these ideas can be seriously improved to eliminate the downsides without introducing the need to identify the user.
EA-3167 3y ago
I'm not searching for anything terrifyingly illegal, and for the rest Google and MS already scrape and compile every byte of data I've ever generated. Why would it suddenly be a problem when a more reliable and less vicious company is doing a fraction of that? You have to understand that most of us aren't fighting some battle for "perfect privacy," I just want a search engine that works for me, rather than advertisers, at the level of the search results themselves.
- netsroht 3y ago
  I get your perspective. A lot of us just want a search engine that serves the user first, not advertisers, especially at the results level. It's about function over strict privacy for many--everyone has their own privacy threshold. But it's also about digital data autonomy. It's not just about avoiding surveillance over sensitive searches, but having control over our data's destiny. Even mundane data, in aggregate, can sometimes be used in ways we can't predict.
  - alwaysbeconsing 3y ago
    Personally privacy is a strong concern for me; I have many aspects of my digital life set up less conveniently in exchange for privacy. In this case though we've have on one hand a product that definitely does aggregate data about searches, and doesn't do what I need very well; and the other a product that could, but does not currently aggregate data, and does an excellent job serving my needs. And importantly there is no option of a product, available now, that is verifiably prevented from aggregation. Even a VPN unless I disconnect and get a new random IP between every individual search does not provide that protection. (And then browser fingerprints even.)
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  What is counted as "terrifyingly illegal" changes without a moments notice on the whims of your rulers. So even if you're not googling on how to bomb the government, there are hundreds of other subjects and opinions that could in the future make the majority of your neighbours, family and workmates think you deserve to be shunned, fired, in prison, or worse. That is why people want to protect their privacy.
freediver 3y ago
Kagi already provides a way to search anonymously via a random email address (we do not really verify it or need it for anything) and Bitcoin/Lightning payment [1]. Since you are interested in cryptography, there is a discussion on Kagi feedback site along the same lines as your idea, about possible ways to achieve this without the need for cryptocurrency. [2] [1] https://blog.kagi.com/accepting-paypal-bitcoin https://blog.kagi.com/accepting-paypal-bitcoin [2] https://kagifeedback.org/d/653-completely-anonymous-searches-unlinked-to-the-account/ https://kagifeedback.org/d/653-completely-anonymous-searches...
- netsroht 3y ago
  Thanks for the links. Using a disposable email with crypto payments and occasionally generating a new account to unlink from previous searches could be a viable intermediate solution. Also, I found this link [1] in the thread you mentioned. They seem to have implemented something like that. [1] https://metager.de/keys/help/anonymous-token https://metager.de/keys/help/anonymous-token
  - freediver 3y ago
    Just to make it clear, Kagi does not link searches to an account already, to begin with. Refer to our privacy policy [1]. We simply do not need that data for anything and it would be just a liability for us. Our philosophy is that users should personalize the search feed themselves and this is why we built features like the aiblity to block or promote domains, create search lenses and many more. However there is no technical way of proving it. So cryptocurrency and cryptography are ways to achieve anonimity from a perspective of a user, regardless of what we are doing. [1] https://kagi.com/privacy https://kagi.com/privacy
andrewinardeer 3y ago
> Being logged in while making search queries in search engines poses significant privacy risks. The searches can paint a comprehensive profile of the user, and these data often remain stored for extended periods. There's a chance this information might be shared with third parties. Coupled with other user data, these logged-in searches can pave the way for targeted advertising, sophisticated predictive analysis, and potential exploitation by governments or malicious entities. In the event of data breaches, the user's logged-in search histories can be exposed. Furthermore, users typically don't have clear insight into how their data is utilized when logged in. This reads and smells like ChatGPT / AI.
- idonotknowwhy 3y ago
  Was thinking the same thing. Not even gpt4
SkyPuncher 3y ago
I’ve gotten tired of these boogey man arguments. There are sooooo many other ways to fingerprint than an account. Oh look, this MacBook with X by Y resolution from this IP address has had 100 searches for the past 2 hours. Oh no! He switched to incognito.

yieldcrv 3y ago

I’ve replaced most of my google searches with LLM discussions and some bullshit checking I usually only need to understand a concept, not understand if the personnel and company names it made up actually exist everything else I use google for are just addresses so I’m wondering if a paid search engine would shift my behavior back to search engines, or if that ship has just sailed

freediver 3y ago
LLMs can not yet replace good web search. There are whole categories of queries whera a LLM is more or less helpless with. Think navigational queries, shopping /reviews, location aware, 'grep the web' style queries just to name the few. For example: nyt crossword cheap iem reddit starbucks near me M7FFALP Likely, a good search product in the future will be a combnation of both.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  have you tried this on phind.com? it'll create multiple queries to find and organize data and it's very good and saying it doesn't know something rather than give a BS answer.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  > everything else I use google for are just addresses > LLMs can not yet replace good web search ... think navigational queries, shopping /reviews, location aware amusing.
vdqtp3 3y ago
> I usually only need to understand a concept You should know by now that LLMs will and do lie in subtle ways that are not apparent to non-experts. Using them to understand complicated concepts is a great way to "learn" incorrect information. To be fair, the same can be said for humans, but humans are worse at bullshitting.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  I’m aware I really just need to converse about a topic for more inquisitive-ness and to form structured thoughts It will tell me if I’m conflating concepts, before bullshitting about the ways theyre different. Thats fine, my blind spot would have been that I was conflating a concept for the next decade. In that regard its the same or better than a human I don't need it to be the source of truth, I need it to be conversational. It can make urban legends just like a person does, I don’t care, just give me a way to talk about a concept and decide if I want to learn more and it does that extremely well