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>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know the

>Ask if it’s ok first… This is very astute. Not everyone likes getting praise in public settings or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work. You should be cognizant of when praise should be given (i.e. when is it appropriate) and in what context as mentioned in the article. That said, if you aren’t thanking and praising your colleagues for doing good work - YTA of the team. If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” *edit* There’s a whole bunch of interesting information on why behavioral praise is better than outcome praise. Here’s a video about it I find sums it up perfectly (though it’s geared towards how it relates to children) https://youtu.be/59gx55bNunU https://youtu.be/59gx55bNunU

whatshisface 3y ago
>“I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.
- jlund-molfese 3y ago
  I like to say something like "Hey, I realize you put a lot of hard work into X, but I think Y would be more efficient and save us all time in the long run!" Because then you're being totally truthful (assuming they actually are putting in effort) while still not coming across too directly.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    "It's impressive how much time you were able to waste while only accomplishing X", but said a lot more politely.
    - gabereiser 3y ago
      This is how that would come across to most people, yes. Praise should never be a time to display your intellectual superiority.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- thenose 3y ago
  Not at all. The trick is to force yourself to find something about their approach that you liked. There's almost always something likable. It's also the trick to being liked in general. Not everyone cares about that, but I've found it more of an asset than a distraction.
  - user_named 3y ago
    No, it's absolutely horrible. It means you think the person you're talking to is dumb and can be manipulated with this phrasing. They see through you.
    - tines 3y ago
      It's not about phrasing, it's about being genuine and also choosing to have a certain perspective which builds the other person up. There's nothing to see through.
      - ragona 3y ago
        > it's about being genuine I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Don't lie, _actually_ find something good to say. It's a goddamned super power, and it's also very good for your own mental health.
      - stcroixx 3y ago
        It’s out of context. Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point.
        tines 3y ago
        > If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point. That's true, but nobody (that I saw) suggested saying things that don't fit the context. > Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. Everyone wants respect and for people to be "on their side," and that's what we're talking about here. If someone doesn't care about your opinion, they won't mind you treating them respectfully, but if someone does care, then they'll mind when you don't. So why not just treat everyone respectfully?
- rqtwteye 3y ago
  “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” I hate this because it’s usually just a shit sandwich. “Great work. Actually it sucked. Keep going.”
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    “Great work” is an outcome. “Great effort” is an effort praise. It can still suck and you can still have great effort. You can’t have Great Work and it sucks.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      what's the difference between "Great work" and "I really liked how you tackled this" ? I assume it's a sports analogy for american football or similar. If you try to tackle an opposing player and you miss or do a bad job, "I really liked how you tackled <player>" is clearly talking about the work, not the effort. If you were talking about the effort, it should be something like, "that was a good attempt!" It's kind of like, "Nice shot!" when the person actually missed the goal. It just doesn't make sense.
      - hotnfresh 3y ago
        Webster’s 1913 (as in, the 1913 edition of the dictionary) relates this sense as “grappling with”, as in wrestling, and provides an example from a Dublin University publication to illustrate this exact idiomatic usage we’re discussing. I’d say it’s not derived from American football.
        freedomben 3y ago
        thank you for sharing that (truly that is interesting data), but how do you know that GP was using the Webster's 1913 definition?
        joshuamorton 3y ago
        Because "tackling a problem" is about the approach. That's how the phrase is commonly understood. The Webster's reference is just backup. Dictionary.com provides "Make determined efforts to deal with (a problem or difficult task)." As the first verb form, before the football/rugby definition. Further, the hn guidelines suggest that even if there was more ambiguity, we should presume the strongest interpretation.
- cratermoon 3y ago
  Have you never had a co-worker do something in a way you appreciate for it's skillfulness but doesn't quite address what you asked them to help with? Have you ever put extra effort into something and done your best, only to have someone ignore your accomplishments and focus on what you did wrong? You don't have to like the result to like the co-workers initiative.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  Let’s break down your version: “I think it would be better if…” You start with an opinion. That’s going to cause any listener to put up their guard. It’s the beginning of any sort of confrontations. By saying “Thank you for the effort…” you are acknowledging the work they put into it and showing empathy by seeing their work they have done. If it isn’t correct, either it should have been course corrected by management or volunteer for the next one. If you think something should be done a certain away across the board, create a brown bag or lunch and learn where you evangelize it and get consensus. You aren’t lying when you give praise about someone’s effort (unless they gave none, in which case why are you praising to begin with?), you would be lying if you said “You did a great job” when the solution is potentially tech debt for later. It’s a matter of communication and human behavior. You wouldn’t praise someone by saying “I think it could be better”.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Your second example is a good one and I agree is a more effective approach to communicating. But GP was right. There's a huge difference between your first example: > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” and the second: > “Thank you for the effort…” The first is most likely a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be offering an alternative suggestion! If somebody said that to me I'd feel extremely patronized and would consider that person very disingenuous.
    - gabereiser 3y ago
      Offering a different point of view helps either confirm their decisions or open up avenues for improvement of their work. It’s not about telling “this is how I would do it” but rather “Have you thought about other options and approaches? What do you think? Why did you choose this route?” helps the individual weigh the pros and cons with each. It should never be an opportunity for you to chime in with how you would have done it (even if you would have done it that way). You simply want to expose the other possibilities so that they are aware of them and haven’t overlooked a potential savings or killer-feature.
      - 3y ago
- darkerside 3y ago
  Can you help me understand your intent with phrasing your response that way? I can see it coming off as challenging instead of collaborative, but if there's something I'm not seeing, I'd like to know. Or, taking your cue, I could just say, "I think it would be better if you didn't immediately presume that you knew better than the person who actually spent hours working on the problem". And, for those who say they like the direct approach in the second paragraph better, I don't disagree that it's a better response to a flip HN comment. When you're reacting to something someone has put serious personal effort into, a bit of tact goes a long way.
- groby_b 3y ago
  If you struggle with "I really liked" because you really didn't, I'd suggest the value-neutral "That's an interesting approach!" followed by "have you thought about X"/"how does it compare to <other approach>"/"how did you land on it". You're still starting from a positive point of view for the recipient, which makes them more open to actually engaging with you. Without having to "pretend to smile and praise". It's an interesting choice alright. If it weren't, you wouldn't be talking about it.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    It's still not an interesting approach unless it interested you... There are no positive sounding meaningless adjectives because positive and meaningless are conflicting attributes.
    - groby_b 3y ago
      If you're dead-set on being somebody nobody wants to work with, sure, keep ignoring that people have feelings. It won't work particularly well for you in the long run, but you do you.
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    Would you praise someone by saying “That’s an interesting approach?” Or is that just a comment on their outcome?
    - groby_b 3y ago
      I'm not going to praise an outcome that's clearly suboptimal, but "that's interesting" still beats beating them over the head with "well, I'm always scrupulously honest, I don't care about anybody's feelings, your stuff sucks". There's always effort-based praise if you want to praise.
- eschneider 3y ago
  Very often they _have_ thought about the other approach and rejected it for reasons. When you go into something like this open minded, you might come out learning something new. :)
- grey-area 3y ago
  Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions: 1. That there is one correct way to do something 2. That you know that way, and they don't 3. That they didn't consider and disregard that way in early planning due to something you're unaware of What you see as lying is intended to avoid an arrogant disregard for their time and thought, and also to avoid having ego dictate the conversation rather than ideas.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    "I think..." is a hedge, "I really liked," (when you didn't) is a lie.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      But what if you did? No one is saying to lie. If you genuinely cannot find any good out of the code review (considerations for performance, easy to read, functional solution, time to execute, ability to reach out to proper peers), then maybe they shouldn't have been hired to begin with? Even a well picked intern these days should have one of those qualities.
      - staunton 3y ago
        So, that would be "I think you did it wrong; of course, I can't claim to know that objectively; anyway, I really liked the way you did it"...
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        You sound wishy washy and you need to review your requirements, and/or rope in someone who does knows how to do it right in that case. There is nothing wrong with "this doesn't feel right but I don't have the capacity to tell". If you aren't qualified for that sort of code review, find the proper peer who can.
        3y ago
- ajuc 3y ago
  Interpretation depends on the culture. In UK this is basically "you fucked up", in Germany this means "you did great with small nuances" :)
- matwood 3y ago
  I think the OP confused 2 states. One is bad, and it's important to let the person know it didn't meet standard for whatever reason. Use all the normal communication styles for that. The other is, it wasn't done how I would do it, but isn't necessarily bad. That's when I would use the approach you have an issue with. In a lot of engineering there is no right answer, only different tradeoffs. It could certain be that the reviewer isn't seeing a tradeoff that the writer saw, etc...
- cacois 3y ago
  I've often phrased it closer to "I like how much effort you put into this. You clearly put some thought in, did you consider this approach?" I don't have to say I liked the solution to appreciate the effort and dedication.
- lemmsjid 3y ago
  I think it's important not to lie, but I don't think the above is automatically a lie. Instead, it's a call to evaluate people on multiple dimensions rather than one. When you're giving feedback to someone, it is often a knee jerk thing to ONLY evaluate the outcome of their work. The other thing you should evaluate, though, is your estimation of their effort, e.g. how hard they worked at it, and your estimation of their process, e.g. how well they used their time. If you only evaluate the outcome of their work, and the work is not adequate, you have given them a purely negative evaluation. If you acknowledge respect for their toil and their process, then you have given them 2 positive evaluations and 1 negative evaluation. You're also acknowledging that because you respect their toil and process, they are doing the right thing in spite of needing the course correction you are providing. Of course, maybe you have a negative opinion on all 3 aspects of the evaluation. If you think they didn't apply themselves, e.g. their effort was not good enough, AND you think they were't efficient in their process, AND you think the outcome was bad, then certainly it would be a lie to praise any of those aspects, though at that point there's almost certainly something more fundamental that's going on and the person is not a good fit for the job. Finally, it's important to evaluate your own sense of certainty about the feedback. I think the important thing about the above advice is that if you are giving feedback and you only focus on the course correction part, it's safe to assume that most people will take that as negative feedback on all the aspects of their work. Now, there are situations and teams where there is so much trust built up around everyone's mutual respect that you can skip to the outcome feedback. There are also feedback-recipients who are confident enough in themselves that they feel that they don't need anything but correctional feedback. In other words, "This was shit!" can totally fly when there's a lot of mutual trust and confidence. But too often I've seen people misread the room in that aspect: THEY, the feedback-givers, have plenty of psychological safety, and they think that is extended to other people who absolutely don't feel that way.
thenose 3y ago
The other (depressing) situation is that newcomers often want to praise someone for their work, not realizing they work in a company whose managers are focused on playing games and forming alliances. In such environments, praising someone can actually work against you. I've heard the finance tech industry tends to suffer from this. Thankfully this seems rarer than the one you're mentioning, where everyone is happy to build a nice company they want to work for. It's an odd situation, where the natural incentives align to reward the opposite. Is there a way to guard against those?
- gabereiser 3y ago
  I’ve seen things… Unfortunately the only way to win at office politics is to either not play, or play to win. Pick. If you find yourself in an organization where upper management is vying for control playing politics and alliances, I think it might be time to reach out to your network.
metafunctor 3y ago
Sounds like a dysfunctional workplace, or at least a very bad manager, if one has to secretly help colleagues. I'd leave that boss or job as soon as possible. Giving praise should always be OK. Rephrasing feedback for bad work as praise also sounds like a bad idea. In my experience, negative feedback should be honest, clear, constructive, and private.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  Agreed. If my manager was like what I described, not liking praise given because it was out of scope of their routine, and was immediately upset - I’d be gone too. However, if it’s something that happens over and over again and eventually your manager says “Hey, it’s great your helping others, let’s document that so you can get back to the departments initiatives”. I’d have more respect.
- ghaff 3y ago
  >Sounds like a dysfunctional workplace, or at least a very bad manager, if one has to secretly help colleagues. There are gradations of things though. There are sometimes things you want to be doing, don't take a huge amount of time, and you know are clearly out of your scope. You then have a choice to just stop doing or continue to do quietly on the side. (Where the helpee knows silence is golden.) Companies function through all sorts of informal networks that are often better for not having too much light shown on everything.
giantg2 3y ago
"they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work." So true. My manager was telling me it would look good if I contribute outside of the team. I recently spent maybe 15-30 minutes helping another team - not because I was told to but just because it was the right thing to do (I was the only person left with the knowledge). My manager found out then told me that I shouldn't be helping other teams without getting approval, etc. WTF?
- NordSteve 3y ago
  The only way I'd give one of my reports this feedback is if I'd previously heard "I'm spending all of my time helping other teams get stuff done, and it's blocking me from getting my own stuff done."
shortrounddev2 3y ago
> or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work This is me. My boss lays so much on my plate that I legit get talked to when I help other people. I tell them not to tell anyone I helped them
Spooky23 3y ago
I think that performative praise is obnoxious most of the time, and causes more trouble than it’s worth, unless there’s a process behind it. Individual public stuff tends to bias heroics or forget people behind the scenes. In public, team praise is the best policy.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  Sometimes you just want someone to acknowledge the hard effort you put into it and share the rejoice that it’s over/complete.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    Totally agree. You just need to be mindful of context. I’m in a senior director role. Part of that is that I need to be cognizant of what I say and how I say it, because Spooky23 is talking, but “corporate officer guy” is who the audience hears. One early mistake that I made was recognizing a colleague who was essential to my aspect of delivering a key project. Which was true. But because of how I said it and what I didn’t provide (context), a person reached out to me, genuinely hurt and upset because they felt that the (very significant) contributions that they made were forgotten or ignored. You can’t walk on eggshells, but a celebration should be that.
    - gabereiser 3y ago
      Similarly had that experience as well as a director. I learned to give praise to the team and individually prior to doing any sort of public showing. I try to offer up equal praise across the team to reinforce it was a team effort. To prove that it’s not favorites or one’s contribution didn’t outweigh the others’ You can’t walk on eggshells but you can elevate your empathy and awareness - choosing the right words is a skill.
grecy 3y ago
> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Commonly called "Positive, to & try", taught to Snowboard Instructors. i.e. "I really like how you did that, to get even better results, try x" (I'm being vague to not make it about snowboarding, but it's important to be concrete) i.e. Instead of "that took too long, make it faster", use I really like how you got consensus in that meeting. To make it happen even faster, try outlining the pros and cons of the solution right at start of the meeting. or instead of "You're not bending your knees enough", use I really like how you completed those (snowboard) turns. To get even higher performance, try bending your knees more so the edge of your snowboard bites into the snow harder.
- xxs 3y ago
  At some point people understand the 'approach', and it is extra condescending. Being straight/blunt is not about hurting someone's feeling.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  Except I’m not imparting some snowbro knowledge. I’m asking if they had indeed, thought about that approach because odds are, we’ll be asked about it. I’m trying to either see if you, indeed looked at all the options and carved the gnarly path forward through it, or didn’t know this other way existed and you could use some of that knowledge to improve your solution. I do know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the VPs will ask - “What about X?” because some vendor is in their ear.
  - grecy 3y ago
    > snowbro knowledge Hey now, Ill have you know I'm a professional snowboard instructor. Certified and all. I get paid to snowboard. It's actually pretty rad.
confidantlake 3y ago
The phrasing seems confusing and manipulative. Did you like my approach or not? I would rather someone be straight up with me. If you don't like the approach or would have done it differently say so and we can talk about it. Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like. issue in cultures like this is compliments never come. Maybe a "thanks/good work" after the project/module is done, but by then it's empty words. feels more like "thanks for making me lots of money" instead of "thanks for contributing your skills to this project" if we treat compliments with a waterfall approach with no substance.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    In the culture of prefacing every simple question with empty praise, then all praise becomes an empty formality. It's far worse than receiving a simple "good work" after the job is done. If you have to choose between the two instead of finding some reasonable middle-ground, then you should choose the one that entails treating your coworkers like professional adults instead of emotionally sensitive children.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      In reality, we tend towards one extreme. So to correct that, there is nothing wrong with over-correcting and leaning back if it becomes a problem. This is assuming benevolent actors, of course. IME even in attempts to over correct we may still end up undercorrecting. So I'm not too afraid of a huge shift to empty platitudes.
  - confidantlake 3y ago
    I tend to compliment people when they do something well at work. There is rarely a week that goes by where I haven't at least one compliment. To me that is more genuine. I am complimenting them with no ulterior motive. Not as some ploy to soften criticism.
thegrimmest 3y ago
This is a very stylistic and subjective take. Not all workplace cultures and not all people prefer to communicate this way, and many of us resent the "YTA" label that is applied to a direct communication style. I don't work for praise, and I maintain high standards as a matter of personal professionalism. I couldn't care less whether my colleagues recognize me, and business leaders don't care about your effort; they care about the bottom line. It's not surprising that your video relates to children. This sort of feelings-driven approach has no place in a professional workplace full of adults who are all expected to know why they're there, the terms of their employment, and what objective they're working towards. In fact I find it somewhat demeaning to have the default communication style be so childish. Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative? This holds true in the general case too: communication tailored to your audience is much more verbose, and therefore laborious to produce, than communication written following the ABCs - accuracy, brevity, clarity. Imagine all the time that such organizations waste rewording things ad infinitum. Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible. It's just more efficient that way.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative? "your code sucks" is even more concise. We can take a minute out of our time to elaborate and clarify, and of course not result to insults. >Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible. And this mindset is exactly what leads to meltdowns in certain industries. "it's not my fault you feel bad about my abuse". People still want to generally feel like they belong and if all you put out is criticism they will find that belonging elsewhere. You can't be negative 100% of the time and be surprised when morale is down.
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    “FU” is even more concise. I don’t want to work in an environment where engineers actively put each other down instead of helping achieve goals.
samstave 3y ago
>>they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work So, Yeah, im going to have to ask you to do more given you have received so much praise from your colleagues... Yeah.... Thankssssss.... - This is a valid concern. There are some many unaware wolves that think they are good managers because they have info on their staff, as opposed to a relationship understanding their staff....
ori_b 3y ago
> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.
- anon84873628 3y ago
  Are you saying you don't want to work with the people who use praise w/ direction? That is my assumption about what you meant given that it seems like the contrary opinion and thus the reason for replying. If that's the case, care to elaborate why you don't like that style?
  - camhart 3y ago
    Because its confusing. Don't say that you like something when you don't. It's a failure to communicate.
  - function_seven 3y ago
    I'll share my reason. It's phony as hell. If someone is legitimately angry or disappointed with my performance, just say it. Don't construct a "compliment sandwich" and patronize me with that.
    - jasonlotito 3y ago
      Considering this is about how you communicate with others, you are saying people should consider the way you want to be communicated with, but you should be able to ignore how others want to be communicated with? That just makes you a disappointing, inefficient hypocrite.
      - function_seven 3y ago
        No, I didn't say any of that. I would like people to be straight with me. I try to be straight with them. Golden Rule and all of that, right?
brazzledazzle 3y ago
Worth pointing out that you should always ask even when you think you don't need to. It's easy to think that a micromanager is always obvious to anyone outside their team but that's not a given. Some managers are very aware of the stigma and will try to hide it from outsiders.
rewmie 3y ago
> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Why are you telling your colleagues you "really liked" how they did something when you feel the need to call them out for "doing bad work"? It comes off as cynical backstabbing.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  You wouldn’t. You are either telling them you liked it or telling them they did it wrong. My comment was, if you are telling people they aren’t doing it right, rephrase it into something constructive instead of off-putting.
sensanaty 3y ago
I'd hate to get a condescending review like that, hell I'd prefer someone straight up saying it's shit and not elaborating than trying to beat around the bush like this.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  What part is condescending? Asking if you thought through another approach? Or asking for your findings?
ineptech 3y ago
Fair warning, the research mentioned at the beginning of this video is controversial and (I think it's fair to say) has generally failed to replicate. The research in question ("Praise for intelligence can undermine children's motivation and performance", Dweck & Mueller): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9686450/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9686450/ Overview of the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism Previous HN discussion on the paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233571
- reactordev 3y ago
  Has it? Ok, I’ll follow up and see if a better example can be found/substituted. Thank you.
xyst 3y ago
I typically find these people in corporate firms. The “I want to be friends with everyone” person. Detangling their corporate double speak and no spine demeanor can become tiresome and counter productive.
jpadkins 3y ago
Great comment, love the effort. Next reply can you try to be more genuine and less patronizing?
allarm 3y ago
> I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach? I would slightly rephrase it like this: I liked your approach, because (reasons), though I believe there’s a better one, because (reasons). If you put it this way you show that you actually understood the approach and not just saying “do it my way”. It gives the opportunity to learn something and it invites to a discussion - “hey, I thought about your approach but I decided to use mine because…”
pxc 3y ago
> If you are calling out your colleagues for [...] not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. Is the following alternative completely insane? Be more combative, but playful about it: > I don't like this code. Let's fight about it ;) > ... I feel like under a lot of circumstances that would be way more comfortable for me than trying to suss out whether someone was genuinely praising me, criticizing me, etc. Social ambiguity is more uncomfortable to me than disagreement or criticism. (To be clear, I'm not endorsing this as a general approach.)
mcpackieh 3y ago
> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Both of these are bad. Split the difference and drop the smarmy "I really liked how you tackled this," crap. That sort of thing makes you sound like a mother praising her toddler's scribbled drawings. Don't treat your coworkers like kids. If you want to know if they considered another approach, just ask them that without trying to softball it. "Have you thought about this approach?" If that's what you want to know, that's what you should ask.
tick_tock_tick 3y ago
> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Few things make me want to work with someone less then passive aggressive bullshit.

whatshisface 3y ago

>“I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” That crosses the line by lying, I think it would be better to say "I think it would be better if you did it this way." It's bad to call them stupid or make a superfluous claim of objectivity, but you don't need to pretend to smile and praise.

jlund-molfese 3y ago
I like to say something like "Hey, I realize you put a lot of hard work into X, but I think Y would be more efficient and save us all time in the long run!" Because then you're being totally truthful (assuming they actually are putting in effort) while still not coming across too directly.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  "It's impressive how much time you were able to waste while only accomplishing X", but said a lot more politely.
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    This is how that would come across to most people, yes. Praise should never be a time to display your intellectual superiority.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
thenose 3y ago
Not at all. The trick is to force yourself to find something about their approach that you liked. There's almost always something likable. It's also the trick to being liked in general. Not everyone cares about that, but I've found it more of an asset than a distraction.
- user_named 3y ago
  No, it's absolutely horrible. It means you think the person you're talking to is dumb and can be manipulated with this phrasing. They see through you.
  - tines 3y ago
    It's not about phrasing, it's about being genuine and also choosing to have a certain perspective which builds the other person up. There's nothing to see through.
    - ragona 3y ago
      > it's about being genuine I think this is an incredibly important lesson. Don't lie, _actually_ find something good to say. It's a goddamned super power, and it's also very good for your own mental health.
    - stcroixx 3y ago
      It’s out of context. Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point.
      - tines 3y ago
        > If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point. That's true, but nobody (that I saw) suggested saying things that don't fit the context. > Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. Everyone wants respect and for people to be "on their side," and that's what we're talking about here. If someone doesn't care about your opinion, they won't mind you treating them respectfully, but if someone does care, then they'll mind when you don't. So why not just treat everyone respectfully?
rqtwteye 3y ago
“I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” I hate this because it’s usually just a shit sandwich. “Great work. Actually it sucked. Keep going.”
- gabereiser 3y ago
  “Great work” is an outcome. “Great effort” is an effort praise. It can still suck and you can still have great effort. You can’t have Great Work and it sucks.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    what's the difference between "Great work" and "I really liked how you tackled this" ? I assume it's a sports analogy for american football or similar. If you try to tackle an opposing player and you miss or do a bad job, "I really liked how you tackled <player>" is clearly talking about the work, not the effort. If you were talking about the effort, it should be something like, "that was a good attempt!" It's kind of like, "Nice shot!" when the person actually missed the goal. It just doesn't make sense.
    - hotnfresh 3y ago
      Webster’s 1913 (as in, the 1913 edition of the dictionary) relates this sense as “grappling with”, as in wrestling, and provides an example from a Dublin University publication to illustrate this exact idiomatic usage we’re discussing. I’d say it’s not derived from American football.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        thank you for sharing that (truly that is interesting data), but how do you know that GP was using the Webster's 1913 definition?
        joshuamorton 3y ago
        Because "tackling a problem" is about the approach. That's how the phrase is commonly understood. The Webster's reference is just backup. Dictionary.com provides "Make determined efforts to deal with (a problem or difficult task)." As the first verb form, before the football/rugby definition. Further, the hn guidelines suggest that even if there was more ambiguity, we should presume the strongest interpretation.
cratermoon 3y ago
Have you never had a co-worker do something in a way you appreciate for it's skillfulness but doesn't quite address what you asked them to help with? Have you ever put extra effort into something and done your best, only to have someone ignore your accomplishments and focus on what you did wrong? You don't have to like the result to like the co-workers initiative.
gabereiser 3y ago
Let’s break down your version: “I think it would be better if…” You start with an opinion. That’s going to cause any listener to put up their guard. It’s the beginning of any sort of confrontations. By saying “Thank you for the effort…” you are acknowledging the work they put into it and showing empathy by seeing their work they have done. If it isn’t correct, either it should have been course corrected by management or volunteer for the next one. If you think something should be done a certain away across the board, create a brown bag or lunch and learn where you evangelize it and get consensus. You aren’t lying when you give praise about someone’s effort (unless they gave none, in which case why are you praising to begin with?), you would be lying if you said “You did a great job” when the solution is potentially tech debt for later. It’s a matter of communication and human behavior. You wouldn’t praise someone by saying “I think it could be better”.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Your second example is a good one and I agree is a more effective approach to communicating. But GP was right. There's a huge difference between your first example: > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” and the second: > “Thank you for the effort…” The first is most likely a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be offering an alternative suggestion! If somebody said that to me I'd feel extremely patronized and would consider that person very disingenuous.
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    Offering a different point of view helps either confirm their decisions or open up avenues for improvement of their work. It’s not about telling “this is how I would do it” but rather “Have you thought about other options and approaches? What do you think? Why did you choose this route?” helps the individual weigh the pros and cons with each. It should never be an opportunity for you to chime in with how you would have done it (even if you would have done it that way). You simply want to expose the other possibilities so that they are aware of them and haven’t overlooked a potential savings or killer-feature.
    - 3y ago
darkerside 3y ago
Can you help me understand your intent with phrasing your response that way? I can see it coming off as challenging instead of collaborative, but if there's something I'm not seeing, I'd like to know. Or, taking your cue, I could just say, "I think it would be better if you didn't immediately presume that you knew better than the person who actually spent hours working on the problem". And, for those who say they like the direct approach in the second paragraph better, I don't disagree that it's a better response to a flip HN comment. When you're reacting to something someone has put serious personal effort into, a bit of tact goes a long way.
groby_b 3y ago
If you struggle with "I really liked" because you really didn't, I'd suggest the value-neutral "That's an interesting approach!" followed by "have you thought about X"/"how does it compare to <other approach>"/"how did you land on it". You're still starting from a positive point of view for the recipient, which makes them more open to actually engaging with you. Without having to "pretend to smile and praise". It's an interesting choice alright. If it weren't, you wouldn't be talking about it.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  It's still not an interesting approach unless it interested you... There are no positive sounding meaningless adjectives because positive and meaningless are conflicting attributes.
  - groby_b 3y ago
    If you're dead-set on being somebody nobody wants to work with, sure, keep ignoring that people have feelings. It won't work particularly well for you in the long run, but you do you.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  Would you praise someone by saying “That’s an interesting approach?” Or is that just a comment on their outcome?
  - groby_b 3y ago
    I'm not going to praise an outcome that's clearly suboptimal, but "that's interesting" still beats beating them over the head with "well, I'm always scrupulously honest, I don't care about anybody's feelings, your stuff sucks". There's always effort-based praise if you want to praise.
eschneider 3y ago
Very often they _have_ thought about the other approach and rejected it for reasons. When you go into something like this open minded, you might come out learning something new. :)
grey-area 3y ago
Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions: 1. That there is one correct way to do something 2. That you know that way, and they don't 3. That they didn't consider and disregard that way in early planning due to something you're unaware of What you see as lying is intended to avoid an arrogant disregard for their time and thought, and also to avoid having ego dictate the conversation rather than ideas.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  "I think..." is a hedge, "I really liked," (when you didn't) is a lie.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    But what if you did? No one is saying to lie. If you genuinely cannot find any good out of the code review (considerations for performance, easy to read, functional solution, time to execute, ability to reach out to proper peers), then maybe they shouldn't have been hired to begin with? Even a well picked intern these days should have one of those qualities.
    - staunton 3y ago
      So, that would be "I think you did it wrong; of course, I can't claim to know that objectively; anyway, I really liked the way you did it"...
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        You sound wishy washy and you need to review your requirements, and/or rope in someone who does knows how to do it right in that case. There is nothing wrong with "this doesn't feel right but I don't have the capacity to tell". If you aren't qualified for that sort of code review, find the proper peer who can.
        3y ago
ajuc 3y ago
Interpretation depends on the culture. In UK this is basically "you fucked up", in Germany this means "you did great with small nuances" :)
matwood 3y ago
I think the OP confused 2 states. One is bad, and it's important to let the person know it didn't meet standard for whatever reason. Use all the normal communication styles for that. The other is, it wasn't done how I would do it, but isn't necessarily bad. That's when I would use the approach you have an issue with. In a lot of engineering there is no right answer, only different tradeoffs. It could certain be that the reviewer isn't seeing a tradeoff that the writer saw, etc...
cacois 3y ago
I've often phrased it closer to "I like how much effort you put into this. You clearly put some thought in, did you consider this approach?" I don't have to say I liked the solution to appreciate the effort and dedication.
lemmsjid 3y ago
I think it's important not to lie, but I don't think the above is automatically a lie. Instead, it's a call to evaluate people on multiple dimensions rather than one. When you're giving feedback to someone, it is often a knee jerk thing to ONLY evaluate the outcome of their work. The other thing you should evaluate, though, is your estimation of their effort, e.g. how hard they worked at it, and your estimation of their process, e.g. how well they used their time. If you only evaluate the outcome of their work, and the work is not adequate, you have given them a purely negative evaluation. If you acknowledge respect for their toil and their process, then you have given them 2 positive evaluations and 1 negative evaluation. You're also acknowledging that because you respect their toil and process, they are doing the right thing in spite of needing the course correction you are providing. Of course, maybe you have a negative opinion on all 3 aspects of the evaluation. If you think they didn't apply themselves, e.g. their effort was not good enough, AND you think they were't efficient in their process, AND you think the outcome was bad, then certainly it would be a lie to praise any of those aspects, though at that point there's almost certainly something more fundamental that's going on and the person is not a good fit for the job. Finally, it's important to evaluate your own sense of certainty about the feedback. I think the important thing about the above advice is that if you are giving feedback and you only focus on the course correction part, it's safe to assume that most people will take that as negative feedback on all the aspects of their work. Now, there are situations and teams where there is so much trust built up around everyone's mutual respect that you can skip to the outcome feedback. There are also feedback-recipients who are confident enough in themselves that they feel that they don't need anything but correctional feedback. In other words, "This was shit!" can totally fly when there's a lot of mutual trust and confidence. But too often I've seen people misread the room in that aspect: THEY, the feedback-givers, have plenty of psychological safety, and they think that is extended to other people who absolutely don't feel that way.

thenose 3y ago

The other (depressing) situation is that newcomers often want to praise someone for their work, not realizing they work in a company whose managers are focused on playing games and forming alliances. In such environments, praising someone can actually work against you. I've heard the finance tech industry tends to suffer from this. Thankfully this seems rarer than the one you're mentioning, where everyone is happy to build a nice company they want to work for. It's an odd situation, where the natural incentives align to reward the opposite. Is there a way to guard against those?

gabereiser 3y ago
I’ve seen things… Unfortunately the only way to win at office politics is to either not play, or play to win. Pick. If you find yourself in an organization where upper management is vying for control playing politics and alliances, I think it might be time to reach out to your network.

metafunctor 3y ago

Sounds like a dysfunctional workplace, or at least a very bad manager, if one has to secretly help colleagues. I'd leave that boss or job as soon as possible. Giving praise should always be OK. Rephrasing feedback for bad work as praise also sounds like a bad idea. In my experience, negative feedback should be honest, clear, constructive, and private.

gabereiser 3y ago
Agreed. If my manager was like what I described, not liking praise given because it was out of scope of their routine, and was immediately upset - I’d be gone too. However, if it’s something that happens over and over again and eventually your manager says “Hey, it’s great your helping others, let’s document that so you can get back to the departments initiatives”. I’d have more respect.
ghaff 3y ago
>Sounds like a dysfunctional workplace, or at least a very bad manager, if one has to secretly help colleagues. There are gradations of things though. There are sometimes things you want to be doing, don't take a huge amount of time, and you know are clearly out of your scope. You then have a choice to just stop doing or continue to do quietly on the side. (Where the helpee knows silence is golden.) Companies function through all sorts of informal networks that are often better for not having too much light shown on everything.

giantg2 3y ago

"they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work." So true. My manager was telling me it would look good if I contribute outside of the team. I recently spent maybe 15-30 minutes helping another team - not because I was told to but just because it was the right thing to do (I was the only person left with the knowledge). My manager found out then told me that I shouldn't be helping other teams without getting approval, etc. WTF?

NordSteve 3y ago
The only way I'd give one of my reports this feedback is if I'd previously heard "I'm spending all of my time helping other teams get stuff done, and it's blocking me from getting my own stuff done."

shortrounddev2 3y ago

> or they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work This is me. My boss lays so much on my plate that I legit get talked to when I help other people. I tell them not to tell anyone I helped them

Spooky23 3y ago

I think that performative praise is obnoxious most of the time, and causes more trouble than it’s worth, unless there’s a process behind it. Individual public stuff tends to bias heroics or forget people behind the scenes. In public, team praise is the best policy.

gabereiser 3y ago
Sometimes you just want someone to acknowledge the hard effort you put into it and share the rejoice that it’s over/complete.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  Totally agree. You just need to be mindful of context. I’m in a senior director role. Part of that is that I need to be cognizant of what I say and how I say it, because Spooky23 is talking, but “corporate officer guy” is who the audience hears. One early mistake that I made was recognizing a colleague who was essential to my aspect of delivering a key project. Which was true. But because of how I said it and what I didn’t provide (context), a person reached out to me, genuinely hurt and upset because they felt that the (very significant) contributions that they made were forgotten or ignored. You can’t walk on eggshells, but a celebration should be that.
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    Similarly had that experience as well as a director. I learned to give praise to the team and individually prior to doing any sort of public showing. I try to offer up equal praise across the team to reinforce it was a team effort. To prove that it’s not favorites or one’s contribution didn’t outweigh the others’ You can’t walk on eggshells but you can elevate your empathy and awareness - choosing the right words is a skill.

grecy 3y ago

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Commonly called "Positive, to & try", taught to Snowboard Instructors. i.e. "I really like how you did that, to get even better results, try x" (I'm being vague to not make it about snowboarding, but it's important to be concrete) i.e. Instead of "that took too long, make it faster", use I really like how you got consensus in that meeting. To make it happen even faster, try outlining the pros and cons of the solution right at start of the meeting. or instead of "You're not bending your knees enough", use I really like how you completed those (snowboard) turns. To get even higher performance, try bending your knees more so the edge of your snowboard bites into the snow harder.

xxs 3y ago
At some point people understand the 'approach', and it is extra condescending. Being straight/blunt is not about hurting someone's feeling.
gabereiser 3y ago
Except I’m not imparting some snowbro knowledge. I’m asking if they had indeed, thought about that approach because odds are, we’ll be asked about it. I’m trying to either see if you, indeed looked at all the options and carved the gnarly path forward through it, or didn’t know this other way existed and you could use some of that knowledge to improve your solution. I do know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the VPs will ask - “What about X?” because some vendor is in their ear.
- grecy 3y ago
  > snowbro knowledge Hey now, Ill have you know I'm a professional snowboard instructor. Certified and all. I get paid to snowboard. It's actually pretty rad.

confidantlake 3y ago

The phrasing seems confusing and manipulative. Did you like my approach or not? I would rather someone be straight up with me. If you don't like the approach or would have done it differently say so and we can talk about it. Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
>Save the compliments for when I do something you actually like. issue in cultures like this is compliments never come. Maybe a "thanks/good work" after the project/module is done, but by then it's empty words. feels more like "thanks for making me lots of money" instead of "thanks for contributing your skills to this project" if we treat compliments with a waterfall approach with no substance.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  In the culture of prefacing every simple question with empty praise, then all praise becomes an empty formality. It's far worse than receiving a simple "good work" after the job is done. If you have to choose between the two instead of finding some reasonable middle-ground, then you should choose the one that entails treating your coworkers like professional adults instead of emotionally sensitive children.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    In reality, we tend towards one extreme. So to correct that, there is nothing wrong with over-correcting and leaning back if it becomes a problem. This is assuming benevolent actors, of course. IME even in attempts to over correct we may still end up undercorrecting. So I'm not too afraid of a huge shift to empty platitudes.
- confidantlake 3y ago
  I tend to compliment people when they do something well at work. There is rarely a week that goes by where I haven't at least one compliment. To me that is more genuine. I am complimenting them with no ulterior motive. Not as some ploy to soften criticism.

thegrimmest 3y ago

This is a very stylistic and subjective take. Not all workplace cultures and not all people prefer to communicate this way, and many of us resent the "YTA" label that is applied to a direct communication style. I don't work for praise, and I maintain high standards as a matter of personal professionalism. I couldn't care less whether my colleagues recognize me, and business leaders don't care about your effort; they care about the bottom line. It's not surprising that your video relates to children. This sort of feelings-driven approach has no place in a professional workplace full of adults who are all expected to know why they're there, the terms of their employment, and what objective they're working towards. In fact I find it somewhat demeaning to have the default communication style be so childish. Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative? This holds true in the general case too: communication tailored to your audience is much more verbose, and therefore laborious to produce, than communication written following the ABCs - accuracy, brevity, clarity. Imagine all the time that such organizations waste rewording things ad infinitum. Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible. It's just more efficient that way.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
>Did you notice that "Why didn't you do it this way?" is rather less verbose than your alternative? "your code sucks" is even more concise. We can take a minute out of our time to elaborate and clarify, and of course not result to insults. >Managing emotional state should be the responsibility of the listener/reader, while the communicator's job should be to get their idea across as clearly and concisely as possible. And this mindset is exactly what leads to meltdowns in certain industries. "it's not my fault you feel bad about my abuse". People still want to generally feel like they belong and if all you put out is criticism they will find that belonging elsewhere. You can't be negative 100% of the time and be surprised when morale is down.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  “FU” is even more concise. I don’t want to work in an environment where engineers actively put each other down instead of helping achieve goals.

samstave 3y ago

>>they might not want their micromanaging manager to know they helped you outside the scope of their work So, Yeah, im going to have to ask you to do more given you have received so much praise from your colleagues... Yeah.... Thankssssss.... - This is a valid concern. There are some many unaware wolves that think they are good managers because they have info on their staff, as opposed to a relationship understanding their staff....

ori_b 3y ago

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” I don't want to work with people that communicate this way.

anon84873628 3y ago
Are you saying you don't want to work with the people who use praise w/ direction? That is my assumption about what you meant given that it seems like the contrary opinion and thus the reason for replying. If that's the case, care to elaborate why you don't like that style?
- camhart 3y ago
  Because its confusing. Don't say that you like something when you don't. It's a failure to communicate.
- function_seven 3y ago
  I'll share my reason. It's phony as hell. If someone is legitimately angry or disappointed with my performance, just say it. Don't construct a "compliment sandwich" and patronize me with that.
  - jasonlotito 3y ago
    Considering this is about how you communicate with others, you are saying people should consider the way you want to be communicated with, but you should be able to ignore how others want to be communicated with? That just makes you a disappointing, inefficient hypocrite.
    - function_seven 3y ago
      No, I didn't say any of that. I would like people to be straight with me. I try to be straight with them. Golden Rule and all of that, right?

brazzledazzle 3y ago

Worth pointing out that you should always ask even when you think you don't need to. It's easy to think that a micromanager is always obvious to anyone outside their team but that's not a given. Some managers are very aware of the stigma and will try to hide it from outsiders.

rewmie 3y ago

> If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Why are you telling your colleagues you "really liked" how they did something when you feel the need to call them out for "doing bad work"? It comes off as cynical backstabbing.

gabereiser 3y ago
You wouldn’t. You are either telling them you liked it or telling them they did it wrong. My comment was, if you are telling people they aren’t doing it right, rephrase it into something constructive instead of off-putting.

sensanaty 3y ago

I'd hate to get a condescending review like that, hell I'd prefer someone straight up saying it's shit and not elaborating than trying to beat around the bush like this.

gabereiser 3y ago
What part is condescending? Asking if you thought through another approach? Or asking for your findings?

ineptech 3y ago

Fair warning, the research mentioned at the beginning of this video is controversial and (I think it's fair to say) has generally failed to replicate. The research in question ("Praise for intelligence can undermine children's motivation and performance", Dweck & Mueller): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9686450/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9686450/ Overview of the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism Previous HN discussion on the paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12233571

reactordev 3y ago
Has it? Ok, I’ll follow up and see if a better example can be found/substituted. Thank you.

xyst 3y ago

I typically find these people in corporate firms. The “I want to be friends with everyone” person. Detangling their corporate double speak and no spine demeanor can become tiresome and counter productive.

jpadkins 3y ago

Great comment, love the effort. Next reply can you try to be more genuine and less patronizing?

allarm 3y ago

> I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach? I would slightly rephrase it like this: I liked your approach, because (reasons), though I believe there’s a better one, because (reasons). If you put it this way you show that you actually understood the approach and not just saying “do it my way”. It gives the opportunity to learn something and it invites to a discussion - “hey, I thought about your approach but I decided to use mine because…”

pxc 3y ago

> If you are calling out your colleagues for [...] not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. Is the following alternative completely insane? Be more combative, but playful about it: > I don't like this code. Let's fight about it ;) > ... I feel like under a lot of circumstances that would be way more comfortable for me than trying to suss out whether someone was genuinely praising me, criticizing me, etc. Social ambiguity is more uncomfortable to me than disagreement or criticism. (To be clear, I'm not endorsing this as a general approach.)

mcpackieh 3y ago

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Both of these are bad. Split the difference and drop the smarmy "I really liked how you tackled this," crap. That sort of thing makes you sound like a mother praising her toddler's scribbled drawings. Don't treat your coworkers like kids. If you want to know if they considered another approach, just ask them that without trying to softball it. "Have you thought about this approach?" If that's what you want to know, that's what you should ask.

tick_tock_tick 3y ago

> “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” Few things make me want to work with someone less then passive aggressive bullshit.