8 ms·

Israeli startups are moving jobs and money out of the country

68 points by eatonphil 3y ago

lisper 3y ago
TL;DR: it's because Israel's government is no longer a democracy. I wonder if politicians will ever learn that turning countries into fascist dictatorships is bad for business.
- esafak 3y ago
  Does anybody have a demographic breakdown of political sentiment in Israel?
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    It would be interesting to see some polling. I have friends in Israel who are super involved in protest, and that’s all I hear when I talk to them. But I have also spent a lot of time hitchhiking or cycling in Israel, and that outrage just isn’t shared by most of the ordinary people I meet, whether they be non-religious, Orthodox, Haredim, or Druze, or whether they be a resident of Israel proper or a West Bank settler. I start to wonder if the outraged Israelis are a bit like the hipsters in my own country: loud on social media, nearly insignificant in the real world.
    - tguvot 3y ago
      actually polling shows that like 67% of population against reforms. even within likud voters, like 60% are against (likud used to be liberal-right party)
    - chpatrick 3y ago
      Ordinary people being complacent is more of a sign (and a root cause) of an autocratic country than not if you ask me. I live in Hungary and it's the same here.
      - esafak 3y ago
        Strongmen can get voted in and tilt the scales to stay in power. In the face of that, it is rational for the minority in disagreement to acquiesce, so I am not sure the causality runs in the direction you suggest.
        chpatrick 3y ago
        It's a process. People put up with one overreach or blatant corruption here or there and ten years later they're stuck with a permanent mafia state. It's what you get when you have apathetic people who don't pay attention or take any part in politics. The crooks take over, which itself breeds more apathy ("it sucks but what can I do"). The "ordinary people" vote for this every four years.
    - mgbmtl 3y ago
      Isn't the outrage very visible in the streets of Israel (recurrent mass-protests)? I consider that different than outrage limited to social media. I'm not very familiar with the issue, but in any case, a majority rule that ignores strong oppositions from minority voters can be dangerous for democracies. It is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner (old saying, not mine).
    - mikrl 3y ago
      Based on the videos I’ve seen of the protests, Israelis are on par with the French for the… spiritedness of civil disorder.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  If the actions of business aren’t material collectively, why would government care? We’re not talking hundreds of thousands of jobs, but more likely a few thousand. I’m sure it’s disappointing to discover you don’t have pull you thought you did as a small business community. Such is life. The counterparty with the least to lose usually wins.
  - ekanes 3y ago
    If you think about now, you're right. If you look forwards and can say that some percentage of these companies might be giants in the future, then it's worth paying attention to.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    If Israel loses its tech entrepeneurs that will be a very big deal for Israel. This is something like 18% of the economy and it's doubled over the last decade.
- justrealist 3y ago
  To be clear — the judicial reforms do not seem like a good idea, if for no reason other than the mass discontent about it. But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature. Perhaps even most of them. The problem these startups have is that the government has been democratically elected, but the demographics are swinging religious populists into increasingly permanent control. That's democratic! But it's the consequence of ultraconservatives having 12 children when liberals have 2. Let's use a more precise term for what they don't like.
  - kunwon1 3y ago
    > But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature I'd be interested in learning about any examples. I don't know enough about global politics to even hazard a guess
    - eatonphil 3y ago
      The UK, maybe. https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judiciary/ https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judicia... > The UK is traditionally thought to have one such system, as under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty the UK Parliament is the supreme source of authority: whatever the democratically elected representatives decide upon is law, and if expressed in an Act of Parliament cannot be overturned by the courts. And maybe more broadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty. But it seems like it's sort of on the way out everywhere.
      - mejutoco 3y ago
        I know it is a formality, etc, but from the same source https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-other-institutions/parliament-crown/ https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-othe... Royal Assent When a Bill has been approved by a majority in the House of Commons and the House of Lords it is formally agreed to by the Crown. This is known as the Royal Assent. This turns a Bill into an Act of Parliament, allowing it to become law in the UK.
- labster 3y ago
  Uh… fascism is traditionally pro-business. It’s political instability which is bad for business.
  - morkalork 3y ago
    Pro-business only when it's run by them and their friends. There are plenty of examples from Nazi-Germany and modern day Russia where businesses had their existing owners/management replaced by party members/political insiders.
    - orwin 3y ago
      If your business have enough impact (ie if you were an industry owner in Nazi Germany), you automatically became insider (yes, even Jews for a time). Small business though, it was better to be friend with small local powers.
      - morkalork 3y ago
        I remember reading about one case where a small busines owner's establishment was vandalized because people wrongly thought he was a jew. His reaction was to clear up the perceived misunderstanding by joining the party. It actually turned out to be profitable for him at first because of the connections he made, but, he was also obliged to continue working with them as well. Even when he didn't want to, because he owed his success to party. The whole thing read like a mafia story.
    - downrightmike 3y ago
      Krystal Nacht being a prime example
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    Facism can also come with lack of rule of law which is undesirable for capital.
    - edgyquant 3y ago
- yonibot 3y ago
  The country is neither fascist nor a dictatorship. However, the legal overhaul does curtail the court's ability to assert a more libertarian, liberal agenda. The government is pushing a religious agenda that will change the nature of the country, and that causes significant consternation to the largely secular population that makes up the hi-tech nation.
  - saiya-jin 3y ago
    No but its moving there, you don't need to be political expert to see it. Its also not a matter of past few months. Its a country in quite an unique situation which I don't fully comprehend so can't comment much, but West bank situation is beyond sad and I don't see any hope for improvement.
    - h3rsko 3y ago
      How is it moving there? By making supreme court justices be appointed by elected officials (like most other democracies) as apposed to being a self selecting group.
  - orwin 3y ago
    Its missing two salient points to be fascist: the myth of national rebirth and the accusations against 'internal enemies' (although it seems this point is missing a bit less). Still, Israel is about as authoritarian as France/Hungary and a bit less than Turkiye. Hardly the worst but still.
    - LeoNatan25 3y ago
      If you listen to political rhetoric from the ruling party and the far right coalition parties, anyone who doesn't agree with them, their crazy ideology or sing high praises to the supreme leader, is a traitor. This has been the case for a decade now, getting worse and worse. How long before they pass "anti-traitor" laws, making political dissent illegal? With the supreme court unable to protect citizen rights, there is literally nothing to stop such laws. But judging from some comments here, that's a "liberal agenda".
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- el_nahual 3y ago
  It should go without saying that the 5 million Palestinians living in (Israel+Palestine), who make up 30% of the combined population, did not live in a democracy even before these changes.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    That isn't accurate. 2.6M are Israeli citizens, they vote etc. Discriminated, yes. But there are laws against that and they are enforced. 3M are in the occupied territories which are technically not a part of Israel so they "technically" don't live in Israel. This is terrible I agree. But this goes both ways. Thanks to the fact that they're not a part of Israel they can become an independent state at some point. In fact, a lot of what's going on right now is because of the rift within Israeli society which is torn apart about this whole mess.
  - slg 3y ago
    I'm not diminishing the plight of the Palestinians, but their situation is not a sign that Israel isn't/wasn't a democracy. It is pretty easy for democracies to end up abusing a minority of their citizens. That is one of the central flaws of democracy, tyranny of the majority.
nomadspiritnet 3y ago
I'm noticing more Israelis doing business here in Panama (in central America). Perhaps this is why.
tguvot 3y ago
There are some countries (I guess in EU) that make some plans to try to create offerings to move Israeli startups to their countries. Presentations circulated a couple of months ago, those are a couple of snaps that I made https://imgur.com/a/nfxedGB https://imgur.com/a/nfxedGB
- invalidname 3y ago
  If you have more on this I'm an Israeli and forming a startup right now... Would love to form it outside of here.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    nope. it was on israeli news a couple of months ago. i currently in usa, so if there is "something" spreading between israeli startups, i wont know
    - invalidname 3y ago
      I heard things but nothing really actionable.
- TacticalCoder 3y ago
  > There are some countries (I guess in EU) that make some plans to try to create offerings to move Israeli startups to their countries. Be very careful about the EU. There's a reason there's only one big software company, SAP, and that their product both sucks fat balls and their market cap is still tinier than tiny compared to the SV usual suspects. The EU is typically not a welcoming environment for entrepreneurs. Taxes and paperwork are through the roof and god forbid you succeed for the rich are nearly universally hated. The latest development is that although the EU has no fiscal competence the EU Commission will draft a rule so that a yearly tax on wealth shall be imposed in every single EU country. At first it was supposed to be a yearly tax on those worth more than $50m but now it's already changed to "tax the 1%" (which is a lot of people). The goal of the tax is to bring in more revenues annually than the entire yearly budget of the UE (which represent a sizeable portion of each EU country's GDP): I did the math and it's pure insanity. The EU is overall a place that'll bleed you dry.
f6v 3y ago
Is it kind of like “If HE becomes president, I’m moving from the US!” and then nobody actually moves?
- wudangmonk 3y ago
  No, its more like "If they remove the Supreme court and install political puppets, I'm moving from the US". My example doesn't really work though cause the US supreme court has always been filled by political puppets but for argument's sake assume that wasn't always the case.
  - JoshTko 3y ago
    To add to this, the supreme court was the only check on the prime minister so removal of court would make Israel like a dictatorship.
    - nradov 3y ago
      The Israeli government isn't proposing to remove the supreme court but rather to limit it's power of judicial review over legislation. That would make it similar to how other parliamentary systems such as the UK operate. I'm not Israeli and don't have an opinion on this issue but let's at least be clear about what's actually happening.
      - LeoNatan25 3y ago
        The difference being that other parliamentary systems have many more checks and balances, whereas Israel only has just one: the supreme court. Removing or "limiting" it is akin to making Israel a de facto dictatorship.
        nradov 3y ago
        Which checks and balances do other parliamentary systems have?
miguelazo 3y ago
Goes unmentioned (of course) in the article, but I wonder how much of the massive drop in investment could be due to the BDS movement and the general worsening situation of the Palestinians, even before Bibi tried to rig the Supreme Court.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Isn't BDS illegal in the US?
  - miguelazo 3y ago
    Only a few states, and the Constitutionality is dubious. Has only been tested very narrowly thus far: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/21/top-us-court-refused-to-review-anti-bds-law-heres-what-it-means https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/21/top-us-court-refuse...
    - goodbyesf 3y ago
      > Only a few states Isn't it like 38 states? That's a lot more than 'a few'. > and the Constitutionality is dubious. And yet so many states have it. What's troubling is that so many of our politicians ( national and state ) openly support such an unconstitutional and anti-american law. Not to mention the media. China and russia's like "I'll have what Israel is having'.
- local_issues 3y ago
  From BDS? 0.001% Broke college student boycotting you doesn’t do much
  - miguelazo 3y ago
    There are entire cities that support it. Including New Orleans, as far back as 2018.
    - local_issues 3y ago
judah 3y ago
For folks uninformed about Israel's judicial reforms, the short of it is Israel doesn't have a constitution, resulting[0] in decades-long ambiguity about the powers granted to the judicial and legislative branches of government. When Israel was created anew in 1948, its Declaration of Independence implied there would be a constitution, but this was delayed as Israel was immediately invaded by several nations. Eventually when a ceasefire was reached, politicians couldn't agree on what should go into the constitution. And without a constitution, the balance of power between legislature and judicial branches was never clearly defined. It's in this backdrop the judicial reform proposal takes the stage. It reduces the power of Israel's Supreme Court by dictating what type of laws the court can and cannot strike down. It grants more power to the elected members of the Knesset, rather than unelected judges. To describe it as "not a democracy anymore" is wildly sensational and inaccurate. (And I say that despite personally opposing the reforms for other reasons.) [0]: https://allisrael.com/historical-backdrop-for-the-controversy-over-israels-judicial-reforms https://allisrael.com/historical-backdrop-for-the-controvers...
- tguvot 3y ago
  while i in general agree with you, this part is problematic >It's in this backdrop the judicial reform proposal takes the stage. It reduces the power of Israel's Supreme Court by dictating which laws the court can and cannot strike down. It grants more power to the elected members of the Knesset, rather than unelected judges. In Israel there is no proper separation of power. Legislative and executive are essentially same . Judical branch is the only check and balance available in Israel. Also in reality Supreme Court stroke down in last 30 years only 22 laws (or some parts of them), and mostly because they were conflicting with pre-existing laws. This doesn't show "extreme power" of Supreme Court, but stupidity of combined legislative and executive branches that write bad laws.
- edanm 3y ago
  To be clear, the people claiming Israel won't be a democracy anymore if these reforms pass aren't the CNN writers or outsiders - it's the Israeli people who are against these reforms. So it might be sensational and inaccurate, but that's the existing rhetoric in Israel. I do think the rhetoric is correct, btw, for sure directionally (and probably just fully correct). The prime minister is literally copying playbooks from other countries that have turned into dictatorships. Also, the only reason to make such a huge mess in order to pass these reforms is if these reforms are really important for you - and the religious right that is pushing these reforms are making it very clear why they want them.
mkl95 3y ago
> But it’s his own government – not the Israeli Palestinian conflict – that worries Amit most. The judicial overhaul and the uncertainty, disruption and risks that come with it, are forcing him to shift Tipalti’s money and talent overseas, he says. I find travel advice sites to be a good indicator of how well a country is doing. Check out the gov.uk [1] Israel travel advice, for example. > Terrorists are very likely to try to carry out attacks in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Attacks could be indiscriminate, including places visited by foreigners including the Old City in Jerusalem, on public transport, and in busy public spaces. See Terrorism > In Israel and the West Bank, there is a risk of violent incidents, including stabbings, shootings, arson, vehicle rammings and stone throwing attacks on people and vehicles. Nobody likes to live in a state (no pun) of constant fear. A legit government should be able to de-escalate violence. [1] https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/israel https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/israel
- lostmsu 3y ago
  It must be irrational because life expectancy there is similar to an average country in western EU, and much higher than in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...
- h3rsko 3y ago
  > A legit government should be able to de-escalate violence. What does this even mean? I would argue Israel is safer now than at almost any other point in the last few decades.
  - mkl95 3y ago
    Well, trading off democracy for stability is pretty common in the area. Israel is currently falling out with their last few Western allies. Check out their neighboring countries Wikipedia pages to guess what happens next.
- tguvot 3y ago
  I had in Israel visitor to office from Tampa during similar wave of violence. After his visit he said that it's safest that he ever felt and that he could worry free roam streets at night and teens were walking outside at midnight blew his mind
smartbit 3y ago
IMHO in The Gatekeepers [0] six former heads of Israeli internal security service Shin Bet in 2012 more or less predicted the current turmoil in Israel. I saw from their eyes how our Israeli leaders really don’t want to solve the Israel-Palestian problem. … I think the Palestinian leaders suffer from the same horrible disease. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film)
psychphysic 3y ago
How can the entire globe be having a brain drain? Where are all these people going? It's just making me start to think the idea of brain drain is mostly leaping on any minor data point to make your point.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Where are all these people going? The few places with growing economies and low(-ish) taxation that flavor wealthy and ambitious people: US, London, Dublin, Amsterdam, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Singapore, etc
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    It is really funny to me that you included London.
    - dzonga 3y ago
      what's wrong with london
0xDEF 3y ago
>Private investment — mostly from venture capital firms — in Israeli startups in the first six months of 2023 stood at $3.9 billion, the lowest since 2018, according to SNC. $3.9 billion in venture capital investments during the first six months of 2023 is completely obscene for a country the size of Israel. I can only dream about Danish startups pulling that kind of money.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Yeah, Israel is basically the only successful Silicon Valley clone outside the US.

68 points by eatonphil 3y ago

TL;DR: it's because Israel's government is no longer a democracy. I wonder if politicians will ever learn that turning countries into fascist dictatorships is bad for business.

esafak 3y ago
Does anybody have a demographic breakdown of political sentiment in Israel?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  It would be interesting to see some polling. I have friends in Israel who are super involved in protest, and that’s all I hear when I talk to them. But I have also spent a lot of time hitchhiking or cycling in Israel, and that outrage just isn’t shared by most of the ordinary people I meet, whether they be non-religious, Orthodox, Haredim, or Druze, or whether they be a resident of Israel proper or a West Bank settler. I start to wonder if the outraged Israelis are a bit like the hipsters in my own country: loud on social media, nearly insignificant in the real world.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    actually polling shows that like 67% of population against reforms. even within likud voters, like 60% are against (likud used to be liberal-right party)
  - chpatrick 3y ago
    Ordinary people being complacent is more of a sign (and a root cause) of an autocratic country than not if you ask me. I live in Hungary and it's the same here.
    - esafak 3y ago
      Strongmen can get voted in and tilt the scales to stay in power. In the face of that, it is rational for the minority in disagreement to acquiesce, so I am not sure the causality runs in the direction you suggest.
      - chpatrick 3y ago
        It's a process. People put up with one overreach or blatant corruption here or there and ten years later they're stuck with a permanent mafia state. It's what you get when you have apathetic people who don't pay attention or take any part in politics. The crooks take over, which itself breeds more apathy ("it sucks but what can I do"). The "ordinary people" vote for this every four years.
  - mgbmtl 3y ago
    Isn't the outrage very visible in the streets of Israel (recurrent mass-protests)? I consider that different than outrage limited to social media. I'm not very familiar with the issue, but in any case, a majority rule that ignores strong oppositions from minority voters can be dangerous for democracies. It is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner (old saying, not mine).
  - mikrl 3y ago
    Based on the videos I’ve seen of the protests, Israelis are on par with the French for the… spiritedness of civil disorder.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
If the actions of business aren’t material collectively, why would government care? We’re not talking hundreds of thousands of jobs, but more likely a few thousand. I’m sure it’s disappointing to discover you don’t have pull you thought you did as a small business community. Such is life. The counterparty with the least to lose usually wins.
- ekanes 3y ago
  If you think about now, you're right. If you look forwards and can say that some percentage of these companies might be giants in the future, then it's worth paying attention to.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  If Israel loses its tech entrepeneurs that will be a very big deal for Israel. This is something like 18% of the economy and it's doubled over the last decade.
justrealist 3y ago
To be clear — the judicial reforms do not seem like a good idea, if for no reason other than the mass discontent about it. But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature. Perhaps even most of them. The problem these startups have is that the government has been democratically elected, but the demographics are swinging religious populists into increasingly permanent control. That's democratic! But it's the consequence of ultraconservatives having 12 children when liberals have 2. Let's use a more precise term for what they don't like.
- kunwon1 3y ago
  > But there are plenty of functioning democracies where the judiciary is subservient to the elected legislature I'd be interested in learning about any examples. I don't know enough about global politics to even hazard a guess
  - eatonphil 3y ago
    The UK, maybe. https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judiciary/ https://consoc.org.uk/the-constitution-explained/the-judicia... > The UK is traditionally thought to have one such system, as under the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty the UK Parliament is the supreme source of authority: whatever the democratically elected representatives decide upon is law, and if expressed in an Act of Parliament cannot be overturned by the courts. And maybe more broadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty. But it seems like it's sort of on the way out everywhere.
    - mejutoco 3y ago
      I know it is a formality, etc, but from the same source https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-other-institutions/parliament-crown/ https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/relations-with-othe... Royal Assent When a Bill has been approved by a majority in the House of Commons and the House of Lords it is formally agreed to by the Crown. This is known as the Royal Assent. This turns a Bill into an Act of Parliament, allowing it to become law in the UK.
labster 3y ago
Uh… fascism is traditionally pro-business. It’s political instability which is bad for business.
- morkalork 3y ago
  Pro-business only when it's run by them and their friends. There are plenty of examples from Nazi-Germany and modern day Russia where businesses had their existing owners/management replaced by party members/political insiders.
  - orwin 3y ago
    If your business have enough impact (ie if you were an industry owner in Nazi Germany), you automatically became insider (yes, even Jews for a time). Small business though, it was better to be friend with small local powers.
    - morkalork 3y ago
      I remember reading about one case where a small busines owner's establishment was vandalized because people wrongly thought he was a jew. His reaction was to clear up the perceived misunderstanding by joining the party. It actually turned out to be profitable for him at first because of the connections he made, but, he was also obliged to continue working with them as well. Even when he didn't want to, because he owed his success to party. The whole thing read like a mafia story.
  - downrightmike 3y ago
    Krystal Nacht being a prime example
- barbazoo 3y ago
  Facism can also come with lack of rule of law which is undesirable for capital.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
yonibot 3y ago
The country is neither fascist nor a dictatorship. However, the legal overhaul does curtail the court's ability to assert a more libertarian, liberal agenda. The government is pushing a religious agenda that will change the nature of the country, and that causes significant consternation to the largely secular population that makes up the hi-tech nation.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  No but its moving there, you don't need to be political expert to see it. Its also not a matter of past few months. Its a country in quite an unique situation which I don't fully comprehend so can't comment much, but West bank situation is beyond sad and I don't see any hope for improvement.
  - h3rsko 3y ago
    How is it moving there? By making supreme court justices be appointed by elected officials (like most other democracies) as apposed to being a self selecting group.
- orwin 3y ago
  Its missing two salient points to be fascist: the myth of national rebirth and the accusations against 'internal enemies' (although it seems this point is missing a bit less). Still, Israel is about as authoritarian as France/Hungary and a bit less than Turkiye. Hardly the worst but still.
  - LeoNatan25 3y ago
    If you listen to political rhetoric from the ruling party and the far right coalition parties, anyone who doesn't agree with them, their crazy ideology or sing high praises to the supreme leader, is a traitor. This has been the case for a decade now, getting worse and worse. How long before they pass "anti-traitor" laws, making political dissent illegal? With the supreme court unable to protect citizen rights, there is literally nothing to stop such laws. But judging from some comments here, that's a "liberal agenda".
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
el_nahual 3y ago
It should go without saying that the 5 million Palestinians living in (Israel+Palestine), who make up 30% of the combined population, did not live in a democracy even before these changes.
- invalidname 3y ago
  That isn't accurate. 2.6M are Israeli citizens, they vote etc. Discriminated, yes. But there are laws against that and they are enforced. 3M are in the occupied territories which are technically not a part of Israel so they "technically" don't live in Israel. This is terrible I agree. But this goes both ways. Thanks to the fact that they're not a part of Israel they can become an independent state at some point. In fact, a lot of what's going on right now is because of the rift within Israeli society which is torn apart about this whole mess.
- slg 3y ago
  I'm not diminishing the plight of the Palestinians, but their situation is not a sign that Israel isn't/wasn't a democracy. It is pretty easy for democracies to end up abusing a minority of their citizens. That is one of the central flaws of democracy, tyranny of the majority.

nomadspiritnet 3y ago

I'm noticing more Israelis doing business here in Panama (in central America). Perhaps this is why.

tguvot 3y ago

There are some countries (I guess in EU) that make some plans to try to create offerings to move Israeli startups to their countries. Presentations circulated a couple of months ago, those are a couple of snaps that I made https://imgur.com/a/nfxedGB https://imgur.com/a/nfxedGB

invalidname 3y ago
If you have more on this I'm an Israeli and forming a startup right now... Would love to form it outside of here.
- tguvot 3y ago
  nope. it was on israeli news a couple of months ago. i currently in usa, so if there is "something" spreading between israeli startups, i wont know
  - invalidname 3y ago
    I heard things but nothing really actionable.
TacticalCoder 3y ago
> There are some countries (I guess in EU) that make some plans to try to create offerings to move Israeli startups to their countries. Be very careful about the EU. There's a reason there's only one big software company, SAP, and that their product both sucks fat balls and their market cap is still tinier than tiny compared to the SV usual suspects. The EU is typically not a welcoming environment for entrepreneurs. Taxes and paperwork are through the roof and god forbid you succeed for the rich are nearly universally hated. The latest development is that although the EU has no fiscal competence the EU Commission will draft a rule so that a yearly tax on wealth shall be imposed in every single EU country. At first it was supposed to be a yearly tax on those worth more than $50m but now it's already changed to "tax the 1%" (which is a lot of people). The goal of the tax is to bring in more revenues annually than the entire yearly budget of the UE (which represent a sizeable portion of each EU country's GDP): I did the math and it's pure insanity. The EU is overall a place that'll bleed you dry.

f6v 3y ago

Is it kind of like “If HE becomes president, I’m moving from the US!” and then nobody actually moves?

wudangmonk 3y ago
No, its more like "If they remove the Supreme court and install political puppets, I'm moving from the US". My example doesn't really work though cause the US supreme court has always been filled by political puppets but for argument's sake assume that wasn't always the case.
- JoshTko 3y ago
  To add to this, the supreme court was the only check on the prime minister so removal of court would make Israel like a dictatorship.
  - nradov 3y ago
    The Israeli government isn't proposing to remove the supreme court but rather to limit it's power of judicial review over legislation. That would make it similar to how other parliamentary systems such as the UK operate. I'm not Israeli and don't have an opinion on this issue but let's at least be clear about what's actually happening.
    - LeoNatan25 3y ago
      The difference being that other parliamentary systems have many more checks and balances, whereas Israel only has just one: the supreme court. Removing or "limiting" it is akin to making Israel a de facto dictatorship.
      - nradov 3y ago
        Which checks and balances do other parliamentary systems have?

miguelazo 3y ago

Goes unmentioned (of course) in the article, but I wonder how much of the massive drop in investment could be due to the BDS movement and the general worsening situation of the Palestinians, even before Bibi tried to rig the Supreme Court.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
Isn't BDS illegal in the US?
- miguelazo 3y ago
  Only a few states, and the Constitutionality is dubious. Has only been tested very narrowly thus far: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/21/top-us-court-refused-to-review-anti-bds-law-heres-what-it-means https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/21/top-us-court-refuse...
  - goodbyesf 3y ago
    > Only a few states Isn't it like 38 states? That's a lot more than 'a few'. > and the Constitutionality is dubious. And yet so many states have it. What's troubling is that so many of our politicians ( national and state ) openly support such an unconstitutional and anti-american law. Not to mention the media. China and russia's like "I'll have what Israel is having'.
local_issues 3y ago
From BDS? 0.001% Broke college student boycotting you doesn’t do much
- miguelazo 3y ago
  There are entire cities that support it. Including New Orleans, as far back as 2018.
  - local_issues 3y ago

judah 3y ago

For folks uninformed about Israel's judicial reforms, the short of it is Israel doesn't have a constitution, resulting[0] in decades-long ambiguity about the powers granted to the judicial and legislative branches of government. When Israel was created anew in 1948, its Declaration of Independence implied there would be a constitution, but this was delayed as Israel was immediately invaded by several nations. Eventually when a ceasefire was reached, politicians couldn't agree on what should go into the constitution. And without a constitution, the balance of power between legislature and judicial branches was never clearly defined. It's in this backdrop the judicial reform proposal takes the stage. It reduces the power of Israel's Supreme Court by dictating what type of laws the court can and cannot strike down. It grants more power to the elected members of the Knesset, rather than unelected judges. To describe it as "not a democracy anymore" is wildly sensational and inaccurate. (And I say that despite personally opposing the reforms for other reasons.) [0]: https://allisrael.com/historical-backdrop-for-the-controversy-over-israels-judicial-reforms https://allisrael.com/historical-backdrop-for-the-controvers...

tguvot 3y ago
while i in general agree with you, this part is problematic >It's in this backdrop the judicial reform proposal takes the stage. It reduces the power of Israel's Supreme Court by dictating which laws the court can and cannot strike down. It grants more power to the elected members of the Knesset, rather than unelected judges. In Israel there is no proper separation of power. Legislative and executive are essentially same . Judical branch is the only check and balance available in Israel. Also in reality Supreme Court stroke down in last 30 years only 22 laws (or some parts of them), and mostly because they were conflicting with pre-existing laws. This doesn't show "extreme power" of Supreme Court, but stupidity of combined legislative and executive branches that write bad laws.
edanm 3y ago
To be clear, the people claiming Israel won't be a democracy anymore if these reforms pass aren't the CNN writers or outsiders - it's the Israeli people who are against these reforms. So it might be sensational and inaccurate, but that's the existing rhetoric in Israel. I do think the rhetoric is correct, btw, for sure directionally (and probably just fully correct). The prime minister is literally copying playbooks from other countries that have turned into dictatorships. Also, the only reason to make such a huge mess in order to pass these reforms is if these reforms are really important for you - and the religious right that is pushing these reforms are making it very clear why they want them.

mkl95 3y ago

> But it’s his own government – not the Israeli Palestinian conflict – that worries Amit most. The judicial overhaul and the uncertainty, disruption and risks that come with it, are forcing him to shift Tipalti’s money and talent overseas, he says. I find travel advice sites to be a good indicator of how well a country is doing. Check out the gov.uk [1] Israel travel advice, for example. > Terrorists are very likely to try to carry out attacks in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Attacks could be indiscriminate, including places visited by foreigners including the Old City in Jerusalem, on public transport, and in busy public spaces. See Terrorism > In Israel and the West Bank, there is a risk of violent incidents, including stabbings, shootings, arson, vehicle rammings and stone throwing attacks on people and vehicles. Nobody likes to live in a state (no pun) of constant fear. A legit government should be able to de-escalate violence. [1] https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/israel https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/israel

lostmsu 3y ago
It must be irrational because life expectancy there is similar to an average country in western EU, and much higher than in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...
h3rsko 3y ago
> A legit government should be able to de-escalate violence. What does this even mean? I would argue Israel is safer now than at almost any other point in the last few decades.
- mkl95 3y ago
  Well, trading off democracy for stability is pretty common in the area. Israel is currently falling out with their last few Western allies. Check out their neighboring countries Wikipedia pages to guess what happens next.
tguvot 3y ago
I had in Israel visitor to office from Tampa during similar wave of violence. After his visit he said that it's safest that he ever felt and that he could worry free roam streets at night and teens were walking outside at midnight blew his mind

smartbit 3y ago

IMHO in The Gatekeepers [0] six former heads of Israeli internal security service Shin Bet in 2012 more or less predicted the current turmoil in Israel. I saw from their eyes how our Israeli leaders really don’t want to solve the Israel-Palestian problem. … I think the Palestinian leaders suffer from the same horrible disease. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film)

psychphysic 3y ago

How can the entire globe be having a brain drain? Where are all these people going? It's just making me start to think the idea of brain drain is mostly leaping on any minor data point to make your point.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Where are all these people going? The few places with growing economies and low(-ish) taxation that flavor wealthy and ambitious people: US, London, Dublin, Amsterdam, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Singapore, etc
- aaomidi 3y ago
  It is really funny to me that you included London.
  - dzonga 3y ago
    what's wrong with london

0xDEF 3y ago

>Private investment — mostly from venture capital firms — in Israeli startups in the first six months of 2023 stood at $3.9 billion, the lowest since 2018, according to SNC. $3.9 billion in venture capital investments during the first six months of 2023 is completely obscene for a country the size of Israel. I can only dream about Danish startups pulling that kind of money.

disgruntledphd2 3y ago
Yeah, Israel is basically the only successful Silicon Valley clone outside the US.