9 ms·

How Japan is tackling a syndrome that creates recluses

63 points by acqbu 3y ago

acqbu 3y ago
https://archive.is/cr4eC https://archive.is/cr4eC
jalapenos 3y ago
The article, leading with the example of abuse by an elder, frames the situation well. These individuals are making a decision based on the data they've been given: that the people outside their room want to hurt them, and there's little to be gained by leaving if they can avoid doing so. When it's an individual recluse, it's on them. But when it's over a million people, they're not to blame.
- getarofilter 3y ago
  [dead]
- localplume 3y ago
  [dead]
- funnym0nk3y 3y ago
  It seems like this exact situation stands for much more: When failing a entrance exam and having a person tell you, that there is no point in living from now on drives you into such a despair, where you cut yourself from really basic needs like socializing then I think there is something fundamentally wrong. In my opinion this symbolizes an immense pressure to conform to standards of society, and at a smaller scale, standards of the closer social circle. If society displays little compassion for individual hardships and failures, does not show softness, it's soon to be overwhelmed by mental health issues.
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    I'd frame that as insufficient resiliency, which is a trainable skill. In order to be successful in life, you have to be able to tolerate failure, because statistically speaking everyone fails... a lot. Modern culture for young people isn't building sufficient resiliency.
    - funnym0nk3y 3y ago
      Could be, and maybe that is also the reason for the emerging mental health crisis. Or it's the other way round. Nevertheless, if one asks: What was different say 50 to 75 years ago? Was it the smaller social reference group (you couldn't compare to the worlds elite in every single aspect of your life)? Was it the way of live laid out more clearly (you could get somewhere with a corporate job, own a house, etc.)? Or is there a more fundamental reason mental health is declining and thus more and more people are NEET?
      - bratbag 3y ago
        Spending your childhood soaking your brain in dopamine as you are drip fed risk free game achievements is unlikely to build as much resilience as pre-internet childhood.
    - soco 3y ago
      Probably repeating those people "you're a failure" doesn't help much building that resiliency. And current society does mostly (only?) that.
      - ethbr0 3y ago
        I'd classify it slightly differently -- in pursuit of equality, we've narrowed or eliminated opportunities for true small successes in childhood. Where true small successes require the potential of real failure. In the 90s, I remember constantly failing in small ways: organized sports, quizzes and tests, gym class. It wasn't pleasant, but because the opportunities were smaller, I feel I learned how to live with failure. And critically, live with it: not ignore/reject it. "I objectively failed at this thing. That sucked. But I'm not going to let it keep me from trying the next thing" sort of stuff. As a consequence of eliminating those chances, major opportunities are often the only opportunities, and encountering a first failure there is extremely traumatic.
  - throwaway33381 3y ago
    13% of Americans are NEETs in comparison to 3% of Japanese it's not an Asian or Cultural issue it's a systemic one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET
- Brusco_RF 3y ago
  There used to be sabretooth tigers outside your room that wanted to hurt you. I am not persuaded by that argument based on the simple fact that the world is orders of magnitude less scary than it used to be. My theory is that it just got easier to not leave your room. That wasn't possible in the sabretooth tiger days, you'd starve. Now it's easy.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >I am not persuaded by that argument based on the simple fact that the world is orders of magnitude less scary than it used to be. sabertooth tigers can't get you ostracized from society because you tripped on the wrong person at the wrong time. It's scary in different ways.
lifeinthevoid 3y ago
There's an interesting documentary about the topic on NHK (the Japan Broadcasting Corporation) https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/4001383/ https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/4001383/
EGreg 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
YellOh 3y ago
Japan often faces claims of especially harsh work culture with terrible hours/overtime expectations; I would expect that to contribute more than things like grandmothers being cruel. (Being unable to keep up with work culture ?=> perceived burdensomeness ?=> less social connection?) I'm a little worried that this will become more common in aging countries as they place higher demands on the working-age population. There's that saying about Japan's social issues being a look at the issues the rest of us will have in a couple decades. As a side note, if anyone's looking for an indie psychological horror game related to the discussion of hikkikomori, Omori was pretty enjoyable.
- jddj 3y ago
  I've noticed the sentiment in some countries in southern and southwestern Europe that the working-aged prime earners are being squeezed harder and harder to support the generous benefits received by the retiring and retired.
  - YellOh 3y ago
    In at least my bubble of the US (Republican ~40yr old family members), there's starting to be some grumbling along the same lines, too. Although I don't usually think of the U.S. as particularly generous to the elderly, social security and Medicare spend ~$2 trillion of the $6.3 trillion federal budget. I've heard complaints that it's squeezing the young too hard to pay for (increasingly longer & sicker) retirement for the old. I don't understand the alternatives well enough to have a strong personal opinion, though.
    - monetus 3y ago
      The moral argument I always hear for our high prices is that it uniquely benefits medical research. I'm not convinced that dichotomy exists, and that those aren't largely indepedent of each other.
      - YellOh 3y ago
        Social security is almost double the outlay of Medicare. We should definitely be looking at decreasing medical prices (especially for enraging subtopics like insulin), but I imagine supporting non-working elderly is going to be an increasing slice of the federal budget regardless.
anovikov 3y ago
From everything i can read about Japanese work culture and social customs i'd much rather shut in than subject myself to that shit.
EatingWithForks 3y ago
These are called NEET (not in education, employment, or training) in the west with a similarly large populace. I don't think we can attribute this to just Japan. Canada also has a NEET population problem. I would rather attribute this to the rigors of society which doesn't allow for different development paths. Adulthood is a hard transition and some people need more time or different structures than others, but society doesn't allow for that. In the past these people would be vagrants until they "settled down" and could somewhat easily re-integrate back to society (employment as a stablehand could go to ferrier, horse trainer, or other land management). Now, with the need for specialization and training paired with age expectations, there's much less room. It's only reasonable to decide your window is missed and therefore there's nothing for you.
- mherkender 3y ago
  Shut-in would be more accurate, NEET is basically unemployed. There's overlap sure but someone on a job hunt is a bit different than someone who doesn't leave their home.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    I wonder if employment is really a valuable metric on it's own here. I've known a lot of people who live with a bunch of roommates, each of them works just a little, part time fast food or grocery store job type things. Outside of the very minimal participation in society at their jobs, they mostly sit at home, drink, smoke weed, and play videogames. Yeah, technically they aren't NEETs. Technically they don't live alone and eschew all social contact. But it seems to me it's basically the same lifestyle. Just hampered by the need to support oneself somehow. If they received a basic income that covered a solo apartment, weed, and a game a month ( or MMO subscription ) they absolutely would not be employed or living with people.
- zer8k 3y ago
  > I would rather attribute this to the rigors of society which doesn't allow for different development paths. Adulthood is a hard transition and some people need more time or different structures than others, but society doesn't allow for that. In the past these people would be vagrants until they "settled down" and could somewhat easily re-integrate back to society (employment as a stablehand could go to ferrier, horse trainer, or other land management). Now, with the need for specialization and training paired with age expectations, there's much less room. Given the phenomenon is almost exclusively male it probably has a lot to do with the borderline hatred for masculinity in the west as well. These men lack purpose that traditional masculinity provided. Before I get downvoted to death, I am not claiming the youtube star pseudo-masculinity is a good portrayal either (rather it is a reactionary movement to the prior). But the mixture of society not caring about men's issues at all (they don't exist, allegedly), the destruction of factory/manual work, men not going to college, dating apps creating a massive imbalance in sexual selection, etc all have an effect here. The situation seems hopeless for a lot of men. Who can blame someone for not trying when society seems to have it out for them. Society created this problem. The pendulum swinging hard from misogyny to misandry has had a dramatic negative effect on boys and men in general. We need to take the attitudes we used to raise girls up and apply them equally to boys. It starts in school. Hell, even as a successful man by society standards I still often feel society is out to get me. We have a lot of work to do and the answer is not to blame men for being lazy NEETs (which is what the pop media does).
screye 3y ago
It's odd that the article does not mention that Hikikomori syndrome is a disproportionately male phenomenon. Most estimates put it comfortably above 75%, with a 65%-85% tolerance range. Extreme Social withdrawal isn't an exclusively male problem, but it is hard to ignore its disproportionate impact on men. > desperation as he quit society and normal life between the ages of 18 and 25 If your child face-plants out the gate at age 18, then it indicates gross failure of parenting and the school system. [1] over 90% of Hikikomori are men http://ijfs.padovauniversitypress.it/system/files/papers/IJFS-2016-1-4.pdf http://ijfs.padovauniversitypress.it/system/files/papers/IJF... [2] Findings in this study suggest that 76.4% of the cases are male and 22.9% are females. https://www.proquest.com/openview/d2fb2f85ee1b7f913be30ed1427f60e1/1?cbl=18750&diss=y&pq-origsite=gscholar https://www.proquest.com/openview/d2fb2f85ee1b7f913be30ed142... [3] it is estimated that there are 700,000 hikikomori (1.8% of the population between 15-39) with the male:female ratio of 7:3（66.1％：33.9％). https://ameblo.jp/lastpray/entry-10819921709.html https://ameblo.jp/lastpray/entry-10819921709.html
- laurieg 3y ago
  It's much more socially acceptable for a woman to live with her parents though her twenties than a man. It won't negatively affect her dating prospects etc. So much of life is centered around work for salarymen. Being out of that loop means you have limited disposable income, limited social opportunities, limited dating prospects. When you're all out of options, staying in and playing games seems pretty rational.
  - Mezzie 3y ago
    That was my thought: Women have an opt out. Given how sexist Japan is, being a housewife isn't great but at least there's an option and some agency. Also it's far easier to be a socially reclusive woman without being judged or people thinking you're not contributing. If you want to spend all day at home with your baby/toddler, people still think of you as a responsible adult even if you never talk to other adults and spend all of your spare time on hobbies. I also believe there's some cultural sense that not being able to do things can be 'cute' for girls.
TheAceOfHearts 3y ago
These kinds of situations always seem like a collective trauma response to some aspect of society. Looking at abortion statistics in the US it also gives collective trauma response vibes. For what it's worth, I'm still pro choice. But it's hard to look at the sheer magnitude of abortions and not think that maybe something is wrong with society. Reading this article, the discussed solutions seem rather vague. I'd be interested in reading what concrete steps other HN readers think should be taken in Japan and more broadly. I'd probably recruit a bunch of reformed ex-recluses, get their feedback and suggestions and test them out in different regions, then continue iterating from there. I don't think that the people responsible for creating existing power structures tend to have the proper context or perspective to fix the flaws, and often the ones who do have a better perspective are powerless to make changes. As a thought excessive, I wonder how many people would end up living through a similar outcome if they were reborn in the recluse's shoes. How much autonomy do you think these people had before growing up and being psychologically crippled by societal structures and systems?
- shortrounddev2 3y ago
  Hikikomori is a japanese expression of "acute social withdrawal", which is a global phenomenon. The US is encountering it, as well as europe. It is also a mostly male phenomenon, with young men finding their roles in society increasingly unnecessary. Without the motivation to provide for a family that they don't have, men become depressed and withdraw from society. There is a direct relationship between acute social withdrawal and falling birth rates in the developed world
  - funnym0nk3y 3y ago
    But why aren't females withdrawing from society? What keeps them?
    - everdrive 3y ago
      As far as I can tell they love empty corporate culture.
    - 3y ago
upshide 3y ago
[dead]
somecommit 3y ago
Japan is a civilization that produced mass quality samurai and monks, so maybe it's linked.
toldyouso2022 3y ago
I've lived 2 years as a hikki and 15 years as a neet (worked very little, mostly freelancing and various expedients). I always wondered how it happened, and in the end I think that while some thing were out of society's control, the italian society is based too much on people being "perfect". It's not a society where one can make mistakes or be different, these things are not allowed both by the State and a good number of people. And I'm not talking of mistakes like shooting heroin, but even dropping out of college, getting some bureaucracy wrong, etc It wouldn't surprise me if japan was similar.
- funnym0nk3y 3y ago
  Honest question: Is the italian society really that perfectionistic or was your perception back then not spot on?
  - toldyouso2022 3y ago
    It's perfectionistic on paper, but perfection is impossible so things end up messy most of the time. This has been a recent realization, before that I truly believed what were required of a person by society, which for sure did contribute to my failings.
SL61 3y ago
I'm American, but I know someone who seems to fit the definition of hikikomori (not just NEET), and it's been interesting to talk with him over the years. He lives just down the road from me, but we haven't met in person since high school. We only chat over Discord. Any attempt to meet up somewhere, even if he initially seems semi-receptive, is shot down with an excuse. He lives in his childhood bedroom in his parents' house, where he plays video games 12+ hours a day and sleeps the rest of the time. As far as I can tell, he leaves the house when his parents drag him along on trips, but otherwise has no connection to the outside world. His parents are lower-middle class, so this is a huge strain on them and I get the impression that there's some tension going on as he approaches 30. We started off having a lot in common - I struggled to find a job out of high school, but I put effort into finding one and after several years I have a decent career path. He was shocked when I mentioned that I'd started a job, and he assumed that my parents had forced me to get one. I thought it was really interesting that his mind went there first. When I lightly approach the topic of employment, it's 50/50 whether he offers an excuse for not having a job (usually depression and/or anxiety) or just says he thinks having a job would suck. It's like he simultaneously believes he's not capable of holding down a job, and also that he just prefers playing video games all day over working. And when I think about the types of jobs that would hire a guy in his late 20s who's never had a job before (grocery store bagger? fast food?), it's a bit understandable. I think hikikomorism, or at least our Western version of it, comes from an inability to approach some of the leaps of early adulthood. Getting your first job, moving out, going to college, etc. all involve going out of your comfort zone and diving into something unfamiliar and scary, and it seems like these people are absolutely terrified of leaving their comfort zones. The guy I know definitely wants out, but it just seems insurmountable to him.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  This also speaks to how critical enablers are to the phenomenon. Some transitions are in fact painful and scary.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  I knew one of these guys. A friend, though not one I knew well. Mostly just a failure to launch situation. He ran into some road blocks, moved in with a (our mutual) friend, and stumbled a few times in life. Smart guy, genuine, but after he got fired for a 2nd time he just kinda gave up. Couldn't get him out of the house except to get smokes or taco bell. He neglected his appearance and got uncomfortable around people. He was going to go into the Air Force but ran into issues there and eventually killed himself. Still haunts me, cuz at times he expressed an interest hanging out more and I always thought about reaching out, but didn't...
barbariangrunge 3y ago
100 comments, but I must have missed the ones saying the real cause: anxiety. There’s a growing severe anxiety problem. Social, economic, even of the outdoors. That’s the problem to address and solve, and social stigma is a factor, but it’s more of a multiplier, not the original root cause

63 points by acqbu 3y ago

https://archive.is/cr4eC https://archive.is/cr4eC

The article, leading with the example of abuse by an elder, frames the situation well. These individuals are making a decision based on the data they've been given: that the people outside their room want to hurt them, and there's little to be gained by leaving if they can avoid doing so. When it's an individual recluse, it's on them. But when it's over a million people, they're not to blame.

getarofilter 3y ago
[dead]
localplume 3y ago
[dead]
funnym0nk3y 3y ago
It seems like this exact situation stands for much more: When failing a entrance exam and having a person tell you, that there is no point in living from now on drives you into such a despair, where you cut yourself from really basic needs like socializing then I think there is something fundamentally wrong. In my opinion this symbolizes an immense pressure to conform to standards of society, and at a smaller scale, standards of the closer social circle. If society displays little compassion for individual hardships and failures, does not show softness, it's soon to be overwhelmed by mental health issues.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  I'd frame that as insufficient resiliency, which is a trainable skill. In order to be successful in life, you have to be able to tolerate failure, because statistically speaking everyone fails... a lot. Modern culture for young people isn't building sufficient resiliency.
  - funnym0nk3y 3y ago
    Could be, and maybe that is also the reason for the emerging mental health crisis. Or it's the other way round. Nevertheless, if one asks: What was different say 50 to 75 years ago? Was it the smaller social reference group (you couldn't compare to the worlds elite in every single aspect of your life)? Was it the way of live laid out more clearly (you could get somewhere with a corporate job, own a house, etc.)? Or is there a more fundamental reason mental health is declining and thus more and more people are NEET?
    - bratbag 3y ago
      Spending your childhood soaking your brain in dopamine as you are drip fed risk free game achievements is unlikely to build as much resilience as pre-internet childhood.
  - soco 3y ago
    Probably repeating those people "you're a failure" doesn't help much building that resiliency. And current society does mostly (only?) that.
    - ethbr0 3y ago
      I'd classify it slightly differently -- in pursuit of equality, we've narrowed or eliminated opportunities for true small successes in childhood. Where true small successes require the potential of real failure. In the 90s, I remember constantly failing in small ways: organized sports, quizzes and tests, gym class. It wasn't pleasant, but because the opportunities were smaller, I feel I learned how to live with failure. And critically, live with it: not ignore/reject it. "I objectively failed at this thing. That sucked. But I'm not going to let it keep me from trying the next thing" sort of stuff. As a consequence of eliminating those chances, major opportunities are often the only opportunities, and encountering a first failure there is extremely traumatic.
- throwaway33381 3y ago
  13% of Americans are NEETs in comparison to 3% of Japanese it's not an Asian or Cultural issue it's a systemic one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET
Brusco_RF 3y ago
There used to be sabretooth tigers outside your room that wanted to hurt you. I am not persuaded by that argument based on the simple fact that the world is orders of magnitude less scary than it used to be. My theory is that it just got easier to not leave your room. That wasn't possible in the sabretooth tiger days, you'd starve. Now it's easy.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >I am not persuaded by that argument based on the simple fact that the world is orders of magnitude less scary than it used to be. sabertooth tigers can't get you ostracized from society because you tripped on the wrong person at the wrong time. It's scary in different ways.

lifeinthevoid 3y ago

There's an interesting documentary about the topic on NHK (the Japan Broadcasting Corporation) https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/4001383/ https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/4001383/

EGreg 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

YellOh 3y ago

Japan often faces claims of especially harsh work culture with terrible hours/overtime expectations; I would expect that to contribute more than things like grandmothers being cruel. (Being unable to keep up with work culture ?=> perceived burdensomeness ?=> less social connection?) I'm a little worried that this will become more common in aging countries as they place higher demands on the working-age population. There's that saying about Japan's social issues being a look at the issues the rest of us will have in a couple decades. As a side note, if anyone's looking for an indie psychological horror game related to the discussion of hikkikomori, Omori was pretty enjoyable.

jddj 3y ago
I've noticed the sentiment in some countries in southern and southwestern Europe that the working-aged prime earners are being squeezed harder and harder to support the generous benefits received by the retiring and retired.
- YellOh 3y ago
  In at least my bubble of the US (Republican ~40yr old family members), there's starting to be some grumbling along the same lines, too. Although I don't usually think of the U.S. as particularly generous to the elderly, social security and Medicare spend ~$2 trillion of the $6.3 trillion federal budget. I've heard complaints that it's squeezing the young too hard to pay for (increasingly longer & sicker) retirement for the old. I don't understand the alternatives well enough to have a strong personal opinion, though.
  - monetus 3y ago
    The moral argument I always hear for our high prices is that it uniquely benefits medical research. I'm not convinced that dichotomy exists, and that those aren't largely indepedent of each other.
    - YellOh 3y ago
      Social security is almost double the outlay of Medicare. We should definitely be looking at decreasing medical prices (especially for enraging subtopics like insulin), but I imagine supporting non-working elderly is going to be an increasing slice of the federal budget regardless.

anovikov 3y ago

From everything i can read about Japanese work culture and social customs i'd much rather shut in than subject myself to that shit.

EatingWithForks 3y ago

These are called NEET (not in education, employment, or training) in the west with a similarly large populace. I don't think we can attribute this to just Japan. Canada also has a NEET population problem. I would rather attribute this to the rigors of society which doesn't allow for different development paths. Adulthood is a hard transition and some people need more time or different structures than others, but society doesn't allow for that. In the past these people would be vagrants until they "settled down" and could somewhat easily re-integrate back to society (employment as a stablehand could go to ferrier, horse trainer, or other land management). Now, with the need for specialization and training paired with age expectations, there's much less room. It's only reasonable to decide your window is missed and therefore there's nothing for you.

mherkender 3y ago
Shut-in would be more accurate, NEET is basically unemployed. There's overlap sure but someone on a job hunt is a bit different than someone who doesn't leave their home.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  I wonder if employment is really a valuable metric on it's own here. I've known a lot of people who live with a bunch of roommates, each of them works just a little, part time fast food or grocery store job type things. Outside of the very minimal participation in society at their jobs, they mostly sit at home, drink, smoke weed, and play videogames. Yeah, technically they aren't NEETs. Technically they don't live alone and eschew all social contact. But it seems to me it's basically the same lifestyle. Just hampered by the need to support oneself somehow. If they received a basic income that covered a solo apartment, weed, and a game a month ( or MMO subscription ) they absolutely would not be employed or living with people.
zer8k 3y ago
> I would rather attribute this to the rigors of society which doesn't allow for different development paths. Adulthood is a hard transition and some people need more time or different structures than others, but society doesn't allow for that. In the past these people would be vagrants until they "settled down" and could somewhat easily re-integrate back to society (employment as a stablehand could go to ferrier, horse trainer, or other land management). Now, with the need for specialization and training paired with age expectations, there's much less room. Given the phenomenon is almost exclusively male it probably has a lot to do with the borderline hatred for masculinity in the west as well. These men lack purpose that traditional masculinity provided. Before I get downvoted to death, I am not claiming the youtube star pseudo-masculinity is a good portrayal either (rather it is a reactionary movement to the prior). But the mixture of society not caring about men's issues at all (they don't exist, allegedly), the destruction of factory/manual work, men not going to college, dating apps creating a massive imbalance in sexual selection, etc all have an effect here. The situation seems hopeless for a lot of men. Who can blame someone for not trying when society seems to have it out for them. Society created this problem. The pendulum swinging hard from misogyny to misandry has had a dramatic negative effect on boys and men in general. We need to take the attitudes we used to raise girls up and apply them equally to boys. It starts in school. Hell, even as a successful man by society standards I still often feel society is out to get me. We have a lot of work to do and the answer is not to blame men for being lazy NEETs (which is what the pop media does).

screye 3y ago

It's odd that the article does not mention that Hikikomori syndrome is a disproportionately male phenomenon. Most estimates put it comfortably above 75%, with a 65%-85% tolerance range. Extreme Social withdrawal isn't an exclusively male problem, but it is hard to ignore its disproportionate impact on men. > desperation as he quit society and normal life between the ages of 18 and 25 If your child face-plants out the gate at age 18, then it indicates gross failure of parenting and the school system. [1] over 90% of Hikikomori are men http://ijfs.padovauniversitypress.it/system/files/papers/IJFS-2016-1-4.pdf http://ijfs.padovauniversitypress.it/system/files/papers/IJF... [2] Findings in this study suggest that 76.4% of the cases are male and 22.9% are females. https://www.proquest.com/openview/d2fb2f85ee1b7f913be30ed1427f60e1/1?cbl=18750&diss=y&pq-origsite=gscholar https://www.proquest.com/openview/d2fb2f85ee1b7f913be30ed142... [3] it is estimated that there are 700,000 hikikomori (1.8% of the population between 15-39) with the male:female ratio of 7:3（66.1％：33.9％). https://ameblo.jp/lastpray/entry-10819921709.html https://ameblo.jp/lastpray/entry-10819921709.html

laurieg 3y ago
It's much more socially acceptable for a woman to live with her parents though her twenties than a man. It won't negatively affect her dating prospects etc. So much of life is centered around work for salarymen. Being out of that loop means you have limited disposable income, limited social opportunities, limited dating prospects. When you're all out of options, staying in and playing games seems pretty rational.
- Mezzie 3y ago
  That was my thought: Women have an opt out. Given how sexist Japan is, being a housewife isn't great but at least there's an option and some agency. Also it's far easier to be a socially reclusive woman without being judged or people thinking you're not contributing. If you want to spend all day at home with your baby/toddler, people still think of you as a responsible adult even if you never talk to other adults and spend all of your spare time on hobbies. I also believe there's some cultural sense that not being able to do things can be 'cute' for girls.

TheAceOfHearts 3y ago

These kinds of situations always seem like a collective trauma response to some aspect of society. Looking at abortion statistics in the US it also gives collective trauma response vibes. For what it's worth, I'm still pro choice. But it's hard to look at the sheer magnitude of abortions and not think that maybe something is wrong with society. Reading this article, the discussed solutions seem rather vague. I'd be interested in reading what concrete steps other HN readers think should be taken in Japan and more broadly. I'd probably recruit a bunch of reformed ex-recluses, get their feedback and suggestions and test them out in different regions, then continue iterating from there. I don't think that the people responsible for creating existing power structures tend to have the proper context or perspective to fix the flaws, and often the ones who do have a better perspective are powerless to make changes. As a thought excessive, I wonder how many people would end up living through a similar outcome if they were reborn in the recluse's shoes. How much autonomy do you think these people had before growing up and being psychologically crippled by societal structures and systems?

shortrounddev2 3y ago
Hikikomori is a japanese expression of "acute social withdrawal", which is a global phenomenon. The US is encountering it, as well as europe. It is also a mostly male phenomenon, with young men finding their roles in society increasingly unnecessary. Without the motivation to provide for a family that they don't have, men become depressed and withdraw from society. There is a direct relationship between acute social withdrawal and falling birth rates in the developed world
- funnym0nk3y 3y ago
  But why aren't females withdrawing from society? What keeps them?
  - everdrive 3y ago
    As far as I can tell they love empty corporate culture.
  - 3y ago

upshide 3y ago

[dead]

somecommit 3y ago

Japan is a civilization that produced mass quality samurai and monks, so maybe it's linked.

toldyouso2022 3y ago

I've lived 2 years as a hikki and 15 years as a neet (worked very little, mostly freelancing and various expedients). I always wondered how it happened, and in the end I think that while some thing were out of society's control, the italian society is based too much on people being "perfect". It's not a society where one can make mistakes or be different, these things are not allowed both by the State and a good number of people. And I'm not talking of mistakes like shooting heroin, but even dropping out of college, getting some bureaucracy wrong, etc It wouldn't surprise me if japan was similar.

funnym0nk3y 3y ago
Honest question: Is the italian society really that perfectionistic or was your perception back then not spot on?
- toldyouso2022 3y ago
  It's perfectionistic on paper, but perfection is impossible so things end up messy most of the time. This has been a recent realization, before that I truly believed what were required of a person by society, which for sure did contribute to my failings.

SL61 3y ago

I'm American, but I know someone who seems to fit the definition of hikikomori (not just NEET), and it's been interesting to talk with him over the years. He lives just down the road from me, but we haven't met in person since high school. We only chat over Discord. Any attempt to meet up somewhere, even if he initially seems semi-receptive, is shot down with an excuse. He lives in his childhood bedroom in his parents' house, where he plays video games 12+ hours a day and sleeps the rest of the time. As far as I can tell, he leaves the house when his parents drag him along on trips, but otherwise has no connection to the outside world. His parents are lower-middle class, so this is a huge strain on them and I get the impression that there's some tension going on as he approaches 30. We started off having a lot in common - I struggled to find a job out of high school, but I put effort into finding one and after several years I have a decent career path. He was shocked when I mentioned that I'd started a job, and he assumed that my parents had forced me to get one. I thought it was really interesting that his mind went there first. When I lightly approach the topic of employment, it's 50/50 whether he offers an excuse for not having a job (usually depression and/or anxiety) or just says he thinks having a job would suck. It's like he simultaneously believes he's not capable of holding down a job, and also that he just prefers playing video games all day over working. And when I think about the types of jobs that would hire a guy in his late 20s who's never had a job before (grocery store bagger? fast food?), it's a bit understandable. I think hikikomorism, or at least our Western version of it, comes from an inability to approach some of the leaps of early adulthood. Getting your first job, moving out, going to college, etc. all involve going out of your comfort zone and diving into something unfamiliar and scary, and it seems like these people are absolutely terrified of leaving their comfort zones. The guy I know definitely wants out, but it just seems insurmountable to him.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
This also speaks to how critical enablers are to the phenomenon. Some transitions are in fact painful and scary.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
I knew one of these guys. A friend, though not one I knew well. Mostly just a failure to launch situation. He ran into some road blocks, moved in with a (our mutual) friend, and stumbled a few times in life. Smart guy, genuine, but after he got fired for a 2nd time he just kinda gave up. Couldn't get him out of the house except to get smokes or taco bell. He neglected his appearance and got uncomfortable around people. He was going to go into the Air Force but ran into issues there and eventually killed himself. Still haunts me, cuz at times he expressed an interest hanging out more and I always thought about reaching out, but didn't...

barbariangrunge 3y ago

100 comments, but I must have missed the ones saying the real cause: anxiety. There’s a growing severe anxiety problem. Social, economic, even of the outdoors. That’s the problem to address and solve, and social stigma is a factor, but it’s more of a multiplier, not the original root cause