21 ms·

One week of empathy training (2019)

425 points by willm 3y ago

mojomark 3y ago
I read this post and have cancelled my Verizon service for a local alternative. Stellar work Verizon.
Xenoamorphous 3y ago
I just had to have a baby and take a pushchair everywhere to see how not accessible a lot of places are.
alexmolas 3y ago
It surprises me that we need an abled person to pretend he's disabled to realize how difficult is to live as a disabled person. Why we don't just hear what disabled people tell us and trust them? Why do we trust the opinion of an abled person more than the opinion of disabled people? Don't get me wrong, I liked the article and it can be eye-opening. But it saddens me that sometimes we forget who's actually suffering this situation, and we empathize with a guy that spend only one week pretending to be disabled more than with actually disabled people.
- theptip 3y ago
  They are not advocating for you to listen to them over a disabled person. They are advocating for you to experience it directly, as they did, so you can better understand what it is like.
dang 3y ago
Discussed at the time: One week of empathy training - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20563679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20563679 - July 2019 (83 comments)
Balgair 3y ago
I used to work with upper limb amputees. Learned a lot there. There's a standardized testing kit for prostheses and injuries that's surprisingly low tech and amazingly useful: The Southampton Hand Assessment Procedure (SHAP) It's very basic. Things like pouring a glass of milk, opening a deadbolt, tying a shoe, picking up a quarter, buttoning a shirt, etc. Being able to pass any of these quite simple tests is very forgiving, you've got unlimited time to do it. But the very large majority of prostheses fail outright. I never really though of how hard it was to just hold a cup of coffee before that, nor to build a prosthetic that could close a jar of jam. Really opened my eyes to the world around me. Disability tech is human tech, full stop. What helps a wheelchair bound person helps a pregnant one, and a veteran, and an old one too. We grow stronger by making things possible for all of us. http://www.shap.ecs.soton.ac.uk/about-usage.php http://www.shap.ecs.soton.ac.uk/about-usage.php
Khelavaster 3y ago
It's a little obtuse to "pretend to be deaf" and not use text relay...
- jrmg 3y ago
  The ability to use these services is built in to modern phones. iPhone, for example: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207033 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207033
- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- OJFord 3y ago
  He was pretending to be dumb, not deaf, but yes seems that should still work and realistically what you'd do. I can understand not taking pretending as far as using a wheelchair though, seems you could too easily end up in situations where you have to try to explain No no I'm on the side of people with disabilities, I'm not taking the piss, etc.
- Karunamon 3y ago
  This struck me as well. Not using the service whose entire reason for existence is "sometimes you need to use the phone and there are no equivalent options" seems like a self-own unless I am missing something. At least in the United States there are various apps and sites you can use that are free that will provide relay services. I had to avail myself of this a few times when some respiratory bug made me impossible to understand speaking but I could still type.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    The UK has this app: https://www.relayuk.bt.com/ https://www.relayuk.bt.com/ Seems free and easy to use, for both deaf people and people who can't use their phone. Available though smartphones or dedicated devices. I think it's completely fair to expect someone to use this service for the occasional phone call.
dheera 3y ago
> Terence: If I want to cancel my account (without using the phone) what can I do? > John: the only option though is by calling . Comcast told me this exact same thing but I just told them that section 9(a) of their Xfinity Residential Services Agreement allows for termination by e-mail and that I was providing the agreed notice and will withhold payments effective immediately. They shut up after that. I'm not deaf but I've claimed to be on multiple occasions to avoid dealing with a customer service phone call. They want me on the phone? Pay me for my lost hours.
FigurativeVoid 3y ago
I used to date a person who needed to use a wheelchair from time to time. Not only is the world inaccessible, but there are so many grandfathering rules that most places don’t have to change. Something this article misses is that many people act totally inappropriately to people using various aids. They used to have people question why they needed a chair. They had people call them wheels in public.
- joker_minmax 3y ago
  I mention this in my comment too - sexual harassment about the wheelchair I've seen in person.
  - deleted 3y ago
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- IshKebab 3y ago
  The thing I've noticed in the UK with a buggy is the insane lack of dropped kerbs. Why? Does it really cost a lot more to have a slightly different shaped kerb? They also seem to have a terrible habit of putting them in the inconvenient places that they want you to walk, not where people actually walk. E.g. set back 10m from a t-junction. So even if there are dropped kerbs it's still significantly more inconvenient if you actually have to use them.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Dropped kerbs are a moderately expense more, especially in time. And they're rarely retrofitted; there's one missing on a path we take and I always forget about it, and even just a stroller is a pain to get over. I don't see how a wheelchair could; they'd have to go down the (relatively not busy) street to the nearest driveway.
- rdtsc 3y ago
  > there are so many grandfathering rules that most places don’t have to change. Indeed. It's especially hard in a poor areas. I used to live with a disabled person and things like cracks in the sidewalk, or bumps from roots, or potholes, look like nothing to people who can walk. To someone in a wheelchair they can prevent them from going through. They city was too poor and run down to get to it. Older parts of town, are also almost impossible to access. > They used to have people question why they needed a chair. They had people call them wheels in public. I noticed this is at the airport. People in a wheelchair often get priority sitting. But to request a wheelchair doesn't require any proof. So, people learned to take advantage of it. May even get an assistant to push them around the airport. And then, as soon as the flight lands, people are miraculously "healed" and don't need a wheelchair any longer. They think it's a harmless thing: "it's allowed anyway", "I paid a lot of money for this ticket", "not breaking any rules", etc but what they are doing is they are creating animosity and suspicion in the general public who now feel anyone in a wheelchair in the airport is "cheating" to get ahead of the line and get a better spot for their carry-on luggage.
joker_minmax 3y ago
I do think this is important as an awareness exercise, however, it is worth noting that a lot of the issues CANNOT be seen unless you actually do bring the wheelchair. I learned this in 2018 when as a student I attended a conference with a fellow disabled student in Chicago. I was responsible for pushing her (she could use her arms but it was faster to navigate the city if one of us pushed). Not all train stations have a wide enough platform for wheelchairs to roll across, so your mobility is limited by which stations you can use for the train, which means walking farther from the station to where you actually wanted to go. Accessible hotel room with a pushbutton door shut too quickly for her to get into the threshold. Thankfully one of us was there to hit the button again each time she needed it reopened, but sometimes you had to physically catch and push the (heavier than normal) door before the button would re-open it. If you were just "thinking" about being a wheelchair user, and not actually trying to navigate this, you would not have a sense of the timing of this door. Another complication was her foot in a cast sticking out. The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. The general attitude toward the disabled, in that environment, is unkind at best. When I was a child (in the US), the science museum in my hometown had an exhibit dedicated to the ADA. You got into a wheelchair and tried to do tasks. It showed how payphones at a certain height are too high to reach, how difficult it would be to go up a ramp with an unapproved slope, etc. I wonder if it's still there, because that was my first foray into thinking this way. The Chicago trip however, basically radicalized me. The article has a reference point of the UK and I don't know what their laws are with regards to accessibility. But it's clear that in both countries public attitudes toward accessibility have a very long way to go. And I'm sure most other countries can say this as well.
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  The UK has, in absolute terms, rather poor accessibility. Maybe better then many places, and the law is allegedly on the right side, but in practice you don't want to rely on anything in particular being accessible without scoping it out first. I used a wheelchair for one day, and after nearly killing myself trying to get over kerb on a slope (from the hospital car park to the hospital), resolved to use under-armpit crutches instead. It's a rare thing that makes you feel privileged to be able to use those painful things! Trains are a good recent example. Most trains are extremely inaccessible, with a foot or two of steps up into the carriage and a large, famously announced, gap. There are wheelchair ramps on platforms but you need to find staff to unlock and use them, or telephone ahead. They're about to remove thousands of ticket offices, so there may soon be no one there. Then when you get onto the station, if the lifts don't work, you'll be stuck on the platform. Assuming they have lifts. My local station doesn't have them at all. If I was in a wheelchair, I'd consider trains a complete no-go zone. Most buses near me are able to "kneel" and have wheelchair ramps, thankfully. Many commercial buildings in cities and suburbs are haphazardly shoved into old housing stock, so it's quite likely that at many places you will have several flights of stairs to deal with. If I'd been in a wheelchair, I'd have been unable to access the office at my first job, for example: four flights of stairs and a step at the door. I sometimes wonder if we as a society will end up actually curing all disabilities before making public things universally accessible.
vouaobrasil 3y ago
This is very sad but true. Life is harsh for a lot of people. I have a basic capacity to work and all my senses intact without any major pains and I am very thankful for it. It makes me want to find ways to improve life on this planet somehow.
seeknotfind 3y ago
Text to speech and speech to text app, powered by Whisper or the new tech, to allow deaf or mute to use the phone. Who's going to make it?
- Karunamon 3y ago
  I think you might be on to something here! The biggest problem with whisper right now that kills a lot of use cases is the requirement that you send discrete audio files rather than streams. However, if you have never had a textual relay conversation, one of the conventions is that each party needs to say/type "go ahead/GA" when they are done. If you can break upon catching that phrase, that might be sufficient for whisper usage!
- catchnear4321 3y ago
  not long from now, when you call support, you will get to talk to the same chat bot that’s on the web page / in the app, but it is on the phone. because it can now talk and listen. with text to speech and speech to text. to ensure equal access. enjoy.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    I agree, it seems like we’re headed to the everybody suffers equally instead of everybody is benefited equally Perfect example from a link from yesterday: The removed a crosswalk because it was cheaper to be in compliance by removing it than fixing it [1] Said another way, nobody…from the traffic engineer to the city counsel…cared enough about the people impacted, that they lobbied or changed the system in such a way that would help the impacted person. Their inputs were ignored or overruled. [1] https://streets.mn/2023/07/19/if-we-want-a-shift-to-walking-we-need-to-prioritize-dignity/ https://streets.mn/2023/07/19/if-we-want-a-shift-to-walking-...
- InvisibleUp 3y ago
  These services have already existed for decades, with government-funded interpreters. They’re known as Telecommunications Relay Services and they come in a lot of varieties for one’s specific level of disability. There are apps now that have the same service using AI transcription instead of a live interpreter, which is nice, but it’s not world-changing.
fdhfdjkfhdkj 3y ago
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AndrewKemendo 3y ago
> Whether you work in tech or not - it is your duty to make sure that no one feels demoralised or rejected because of the systems you build. Shouting into the wind Until the financial incentives of investors, employees and customers align this will never be a priority
- throwawa14223 3y ago
  Or other people don't believe it to be a deontological style duty.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    I don’t disagree with you, however we are talking about real people in society, not a theoretical philosophical system. I’m unaware of any wide scale explicitly adopted philosophy wherein there is zero responsibility from individuals to care for others or society. I am curious though what you would describe as your personal philosophy, or if you’re not talking about yourself then what ethics framework are you referring to living inside that does not have a normative component. Maybe a better way to ask it is: what relativistic philosophy is dominant enough or otherwise adopted to such an extent that people are able to functionally live underneath it without any type of a-priori responsibility to others. What I DO see however are people who reject responsibility for others, yet accept or even demand support from others - even if it’s tacit - and then hold a position like you describe. So I remain suspect of anyone promoting some extreme version of individualism, as it conflicts with not only biology, but the entire history of societies and philosophies.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  That will never happen? Ergo government regulations
- josephg 3y ago
  > Until the financial incentives of investors, employees and customers align this will never be a priority In some parts of the world, disabled people can sue businesses over accessibility issues. People complain about the “disability mafia” shaking down businesses, but I think it might be the only way to align incentives to actually get these problems reliably addressed.
Calavar 3y ago
Maybe a minority opinion here, but I find the idea of trying to see what it's like to live with a disability first hand without taking a minimum effort to understand the nature of the disability or how people with that disability typically deal with it is at best an exercise of very limited worth and and worst moderately offensive. The author quotes a statistic that 10% of the UK have speech difficulties. Does he believe that 1 out of 10 Brits is completely unable to hold a phone conversation? If not, then why is this the way he chooses to explore the disability? Assuming that he specifically wants to explore aphasia/dysarthria, did he ask an aphasic or dysarthric person how they approach having to make a phone call? If his goal is to truly understand the experience of living with their disability, how can he do that without approaching things the same way they do? Did he do the research to see that aphasia and dysarthria are disabilities that rarely occur in isolation? Because I don't see any discussion of that, and again, how can you understand the experience of an aphasic or dysarthric person without understanding the other disabilities that the average aphasic person also deals with?
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  I’m of the same opinion. The author has no freaking clue. I broke my ankle in high school and I got zero support. All of the classes were on the third floor and the cafeteria was in the basement. 1. There was no elevator in the building. I had to use crutches to get up the stairs while carrying all of my textbooks. 2. I was required to attend gym class on the second floor of another building (no elevator) and change clothes in a room with no chairs or benches. Then I would sit in a chair while everyone did the assigned activities. 3. I was required to eat lunch in the cafeteria. I wasn’t given extra time. Occasionally there wouldn’t be enough food and I would get a single peanut butter sandwich while others had gone through the line twice before I got there. 4. I was late to every class and everyone watched me while the teacher waited for me to get to an assigned seat down a narrow isle. 5. I wasn’t given extra time to get to the bus after school. So I had to wait in detention for my mom to drive from work if I missed the bus. 6. Oh, I forgot, the second to last class of my day was on a different floor. So I had to go down and back up the stairs. I forgot how many weeks this went on until I had a walking cast. The whole thing lasted 8 weeks. The best part, I broke my ankle in gym class because I got tripped and knocked sideways during basketball. They called my mom to pick me up instead of calling an ambulance.
isykt 3y ago
Accessibility seems to be a blind spot for most in tech because we don’t think disability will happen to us, or if it does, it will be a long time from now. What people often don’t consider is that even if that is true, the likelihood that you will care for someone with a disability — an aging parent, a spouse, or a child - increases the likelihood of lack of accessibility impacting your ability to enjoy your (shared) life. My partner had a stroke. They can no longer walk steadily, and they likely never will. The number of times a certain thing we wanted to do went from idea to “guess not” is now incalculable. The logistics just become too onerous… and we’re lucky. We are high earners in a developed city.
- javajosh 3y ago
  >Accessibility seems to be a blind spot for most in tech because we don’t think disability will happen to us, or if it does, it will be a long time from now. I strongly disagree, and I worry that people are now trained to think the worst of themselves. Abledness is the Chrome of people: we code for the mainstream, the healthy, able people, and then if we have time we add support for the others. I don't think this is evil, or even wrong: it's a wise use of limited resources. There are far, far more error modes in a system (like the human body) than non-error modes. That's why people with disabilities really are more dependent on others. Like in the OP's case, they (quite reasonably) suggested that he get someone to help him on the phone. Why is that bad? I mean, consider the "disability" of not speaking the supported natural languages. Are all customer service teams supposed to speak all natural languages? Instead of self-flagellating, or flagellating orgs and govs for not covering an infinite number of issues, I think you should instead volunteer to be a helper for someone with a disability. If more people did that, then this issue would be all but moot. Putting the burden on service providers to do the job your friends, family, or helpers should be doing for the disabled doesn't seem fair. (And I say this as someone with a strong bias against central authority).
  - mplewis 3y ago
    It is not a wise use of limited resources when we aim to build a society that serves all. A human without access to basic civilization is not an "error mode." They are a person that we need to help. Human civilization doesn't have to be a world where those with means get to enjoy consumption while those without starve. We have the resources to do better by everyone, not only the abled.
jacknews 3y ago
No doubt there are real issues with the way society is (not) designed to accommodate the less able, but this sortie seems to me to involve quite a bit of provocation and 'fake outrage'. For one thing, people are fairly sensitive to trolling atempts these days, so merely 'pretending' is maybe not good enough.
jsnell 3y ago
Most of the example challenges feel pretty odd. > Go a couple of weeks without using the phone. Which services are closed off to you? I think I've called a service provider of any kind once in the last five years. It didn't actually get me anything that text comms would not have. > Tell people you need an accessible venue for your meetings. How do they respond? The last time I spoke at a venue was like 8 years ago. The author doing it multiple times in a random week seems like quite an outlier. > Switch on subtitles and mute your favourite shows. Do they even have subtitles? What do you miss? I always have subtitles on in any TV show, streaming show, YouTube, etc. I can't even think of the last time it wasn't an option. (The subtitles for the news have a 15 second delay due to it being a real-time broadcast, which is a bit distracting but acceptable.)
- navjack27 3y ago
  So just because you could argue about all of these, they are all invalid?
  - jsnell 3y ago
    I did not use the word "invalid", or anything like that. You've made that up. The author seems to think that this list is compelling, and that people will find it incredibly hard to do these challenges. But at least half the list is describing stuff that I know with certainty would be no trouble because it is either stuff I already do all the time, or has boundary conditions that have a <<1% chance of triggering. That's a lot more than "could argue". So the list seems pretty bad, and I would suggest would not actually have the effect the author suggests of building empathy.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  For some reason Crave in Canada on AppleTV seems to have no subtitles whatsoever. I can't understand why.
  - chronicsonic 3y ago
    This might be related to Apple, normally Apple is very good for accessibility, but even the BBC has challenges with subtitles on AppleTV, same with the Dutch NPO TV: “Why are there no subtitles on BBC iPlayer via Apple TV? There are technical challenges associated with delivering subtitles to Apple TV which will require a significantly different solution to that which we use on all other platforms. We are working towards it but don't currently have timelines associated with this support.” Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/apple-tv-subtitles https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/a...
zmower 3y ago
Ah, cancelling Virgin Media. I've done this recently. I got upset. I shouted down the phone at them. I'm not surprised they're being invetigated by OFCOM https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jul/13/ofcom-investigates-virgin-media-over-complaints-contracts-hard-to-cancel https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jul/13/ofcom-investig...
- Nexxxeh 3y ago
  Took me well over an hour to cancel. When the guy in the OP explained his experience, all I could think was, "That's equality. An overwhelmingly shit customer service experience to all, disabled or not." I'm currently stuck with someone else's email account in my authorized users, a phone number as my contact number that I can't update (known VM issue atm apparently), and an strong desire to send their CEO recordings of me screaming.
navjack27 3y ago
The biggest disability I wish people would explore in their accessibility is issues with impulse control. So much of the web is designed to keep us hooked and I firmly believe that people that have issues with impulse control have a good handle on the obvious stuff moreso than people who don't because we are aware of the concept of choice more. But what about when it's your credit account that is sabotaging you by design? Can't cancel the account unless you call a phone number and talk to somebody. But if you want to increase your credit limit, you can just click a button on the website and validate how much you make a year and boom, you have a $7000 limit when you get $900 a month. So if you have a phone phobia and an issue with impulse control and you maybe stress spend, you now have a system totally against you by design. It's great to explore the world as someone with visible disabilities. Also do so with neurodivergence.
- sergioisidoro 3y ago
  I'm skeptical about calling it a disability, because a lot of these mechanisms and dark patterns are made to prey on everyone's nature. Some people may more susceptible to those stimuli, but I don't see it a disability, but as natural neurodiversity. These are plainly predatory and unethical marketing practices, for everyone!
  - concordDance 3y ago
    A lot of disabilities are a sliding scale with fuzzy grey areas. E.g. visual impairment goes all the way from "struggling to distinguish colors" and "vision is distorted enough that it's impossible to correct to 20-20" to "can't see hand in from of face"
  - Retric 3y ago
    Pay to win video games really are ultimately targeting a small demographic as a tiny percentage of the audience results in the majority of their income. The thing is they don’t know who specifically is vulnerable ahead of time, so they cast a wide net.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Neurodiversity is a nicer sounding term, to mask the fact that underneath there are certain life affecting disabilities - often severely life affecting (if it was just harmless "natural neurodiversity", it wouldn't translate to reduced life expectancy. Not to mention millions of cases which need constant assistance to make it througn everyday life). That it also targets "everyone's nature" doesn't mean it's not a bigger issue for people with certain neurodiversities affecting impulse control more. Same way a badly maintained road might also inconvenience a perfectly abled walker, but it is far more burdensome to a disabled person.
throw9away6 3y ago
I feel like things have gotten way worse in the last 4 years. Everyone has eliminated the human assistance so if your problem cannot be solved by the standard flow you are out of luck. Many places won’t pick up the phone, there is no way to escalate to a human. If you are disabled you are just a cost center and nobody will bother with you at all.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway290 3y ago
> If you don't have a voice, you're locked out of Virgin's upgrade and cancellation routes. Can't they be sued for that alone? Pretty sure there are lawyers making a living on things like this in the US...
arp242 3y ago
John from Virgin Media probably isn't a bad person, or unsympathetic to Terence's plight, but in his job there is almost certainly nothing he's able to do: The System™ just wasn't designed for it and he can't make an exception. I feel we've lost some things by introducing computerized systems everywhere. Everything is now neatly boxed off and as soon as you want something nonstandard – no matter how much sense it makes – it's "computer says no" everywhere. It's frustrating and humiliating for Terence, but also for John, who has to helplessly see someone in a difficult situation. Actually caring about Terence and the people like him he deals with every day would destroy John emotionally, so he does the only thing he can: not care. Which is "merely" corrosive, but at least doesn't destroy him. --- Last year I had a somewhat similar situation: after flying to Amsterdam I managed to just catch a train with a bit of a sprint. The bloke after me was in a wheelchair, but the train was about to leave and the conductor was on his own (with me, freshly arrived in the vestibule just on time). There's a gap between the train and platform so wheelchair users can't "just" board and the conductor couldn't lift him on board on his own. I naturally offered to help, as most people would, but was immediately rebuffed by the conductor. Since the train was already late it couldn't wait for another employee to arrive, so it just left, leaving the guy behind – the next train was an hour later. After the train left I chatted a bit with the conductor and he explained he couldn't accept my help for insurance reasons, and that it wasn't "responsible" to accept help from random strangers. On one hand, I can understand that, I guess... But on the other hand: what the actual fuck? How is this now considered acceptable in our society? I can't help but feel we've created a system where our humanity has been systemically stripped from us, and that this has become so normalized we don't even realize it. --- This affects everyone outside "the happy path"; homeless people are another classic example. People say "get a job" but this isn't easy without a fixed address, and renting something without a job is often impossible (even IF you actually have money), and you usually also can't get paid without a bank account, but getting an account requires a fixed address, etc. etc. There's all sorts of catch-22s – sometimes special systems exist to deal with this, but they're bandaids on top of a broken system and certainly in some countries "homeless" is so narrowly defined that it excludes huge swaths of homeless people.
hbrav 3y ago
It's kinda disappointing that handling someone being unable to call hadn't occurred to these companies previously. But what's pretty terrible is the attitude of customer service being "you just have to call, sorry". This all reminds me of the advice is Patrick McKenzie's blog post "Identity, Credit Reports and You." Specifically: you never want to deal with customer service, they are the Department of Fobbing People Off. You want to be communicating in writing with a lawyer, since lawyers have the power to tell other people in the business "you're creating liability, make this problem go away". In this case I think you don't have the same structure as in the credit report case (an act that says they must investigate and respond within X days), so for credibility you probably do need a lawyer writing a letter for you. But I strongly suspect that something like the following will generate a response: "Dear Sir/Madam, I represent [user]. My client is a customer of your business but is unable to access your services due to [disability]. He has communicated with your customer services (see attached screenshots) and requested they provide a means for him to access these services. Unfortunately they have declined to do so. [Relevant legislation] requires reasonable adjustments to be made in serving disabled customers, and my client and I believe that [adjustment] could easily be made by your business to allow customers with [disability] to access these services. Please advise us within [x days] what adjustments you plan to make to allow my client to access these services. Yours, [Lawyer]"
- Affric 3y ago
  In Australia, and the UK, you would go to the Ombudsman. At no charge. And your problem would be sorted.
- PaulKeeble 3y ago
  In my experience finding lawyers to represent you for these injustices is very hard. Disabled people also tend to be poorer and lawyers just aren't interested. Medical abuse of the chronically ill is a big area which lawyers refuse to deal with and it's rife with potential lawsuits. It's not this easy, everyone and I mean everyone treats you like your disposable.
  - wombatpm 3y ago
Chris2048 3y ago
To be fair, you tried to find out "how society treats disabled people", then chose cancelling an internet subscription as the bellwether; This is painful and anger inducing when you aren't disabled.
mavili 3y ago
"This is discrimination. I don't know sign language and I don't have text relay. I can't use my voice." This his reply to instructions telling him he can ask for sign language or use text relay if he cannot use his voice. I hardly see this as discrimination. This is in no way different from a perfectly able person saying it's discrimination to expect me to read and write! Sign language is the language of the voiceless. Life isn't perfect. Of course we should do as much as we can to make life for the disabled easier. But seriously people feel so entitled and expect so much from everyone. People need to accept that not everyone can accommodate 100% of needs. Governments should, but not private entities.
- kvetching 3y ago
  Hilarious that people downvoted this. The writer is fooling you all. Virgin literally provided solutions to his issue. A text relay service is the answer if you must speak on the phone. I remember using AT&T text relay as far back as early 2000s. Any person that can't speak would be totally familiar with this solution.
- edent 3y ago
  Let's say that tomorrow you get a really bad sore throat. Like, the worst. So bad that you can't speak. How much sign language do you know right now? Disabilities can be temporary or situational. They can be long-term or sudden.
  - mavili 3y ago
    I'd wait until my sore throat is gone. And if I have a disability for longer I'd have to learn to navigate the world my friend. Just like me and you have had to learn to read and write. Funny enough, we also had to learn to use a phone. Oh how dare companies expect us to know use a phone and dial a few digits!
    - edent 3y ago
      And this is why it is called "empathy" training.
    - 3y ago
moomoo11 3y ago
Honestly life would be way better if we just helped each other a little bit without expecting anything in return. I think in most capitalist circles (I’m in one, and I like capitalism) people have lost their view of other people as people. We look at people as customers and group them into profiles. If we looked at people as people, and not just automatons who will purchase something from us, I think society would progress quite a lot. I don’t think there’s a way to do this since the majority just wants something that meets their effort:time spent ratio. However… It sucks that we put in AI chat bots that will never work as a substitute for human care. It sucks that we make all these horrendous UX decisions that are hard to navigate for most people who aren’t 20. It sucks that we don’t offer service for expensive products after selling them. Why can’t I fix my own devices easily anymore?
devteambravo 3y ago
I spent some time discussing this with my buddy, who ate an RPG round in close proximity, while serving in Iraq. He gradually lost his vision, all of it. It's so depressing to even think back on the chats, as I cannot imagine living w/o the internet I grew up on. Does anyone want to pair up and work on software that treats disabled users with respect? And who know, maybe make something a deaf or blind or N player can experience? I lived a lot of live w/ 100% brain capacity, not really making use of it, and then it was taken from me in an IED blast (Afghanistan). What I lack in skills, I guarantee you I will make up with experience. A frustrated Infantryman turned UX/UI/Product afficionado (and $90k startup employee)
baz00 3y ago
Cursed with the two shittiest UK organisations in existence there. Having dealt with Virgin Media and Thames Water for years they are quite frankly abhorrent even if you don't have a disability. From piss and rubbish filled street junction boxes and outages for days at a time to poor maintenance leading to a lingering smell of shit and mosquitos that actually devalued property in my area, they should be utterly shafted by everyone who can for every mistake they make. Vote with your feet if you can.
xyzelement 3y ago
Great article and a good reminder to focus on accessibility. There's good news though. Although being disabled is difficult, it is less difficult now than at any other period in history. The amount of awareness, accommodation, accessibility focus, etc is maximum right now and it's only going to continue. It's important to keep this progress in mind as we work to further improve things. Another point is that people living with disabilities have years or decades of expertise, something that someone "cosplaying" (to use the author's word) has no access to. A cosplayer wouldn't know which streets are easiest with a wheel chair or which companies have the most accessible websites. An actual disabled person has this sort of knowledge and would navigate it far better than a "tourist" There's lot of work to be done but it's important to acknowledge what's better than it may seem at first.
lijok 3y ago
What a strange article. I want to believe the author has good intentions but I can't help but feel they're virtue signalling. If one really wanted to understand what disabled people are dealing with, you should volunteer some time at a care home, not pretend to have a disability without understanding what that disability entails or being aware of existing coping strategies and tools for said disabilities. Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have would have been able to navigate the situations the author encountered. So what insights have we gained from the authors experience?
- bone_frequency 3y ago
  I also believe it is an obvious virtue signal piece, but to be fair, I also think he exposed some valid cases in that post. Are there really coping strategies and tools for all these problems?
- saboot 3y ago
  >> Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have would have been able to navigate the situations the author encountered How do you know this? Also, I downvoted your comment because 'virtue signalling' is non-sense phrase.
  - lijok 3y ago
    > How do you know this? Experience > Also, I downvoted your comment because 'virtue signalling' is non-sense phrase. Might want to let Oxford know, they'll have to do a reprint
    - deleted 3y ago
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- dns_snek 3y ago
  > Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have would have been able to navigate the situations the author encountered. Care to elaborate? This very thread contains countless anecdotes affirming author's findings.
rawland 3y ago
This. Being disabled sucks even more. Because there is no "now I opt out" decision as the author could do. Kudos to doing the exercise.
lamontcg 3y ago
I have to actually deal with stuff like this in real life with my disabled Mother, but for some reason this article just irritates me. Reads like its preaching to a bunch of liberals engaged in self-flagellation so they feel like they have empathy, but nothing is actually going to get done. Anyone going to form a Union at work so that people can work together to effectively push back on Management cutting support budgets and implementing dark patterns and just outright neglecting disabled people, or will it just be enough that we all feel bad about this and nothing will happen?
SirMaster 3y ago
I'm confused. Wouldn't a person with no voice simply use a text-to-speech system to communicate over the phone? It doesn't look like they tried any such thing.
l0b0 3y ago
I got into web accessibility early in my career, and would've probably done a lot more work there if anyone anywhere had given two shits. Trying to prioritise even basic stuff like alt text or keyboard shortcuts for the most important parts of a site were not interesting to any employers. Accessibility is really just an afterthought even when companies claim to be doing it.
boringuser2 3y ago
This is like going to the gym and trying to do someone else's set of heavy squats without ever having squatted in your life. That person has adapted to that burden and you aren't really learning anything by failing to tackle it.

425 points by willm 3y ago

mojomark 3y ago

I read this post and have cancelled my Verizon service for a local alternative. Stellar work Verizon.

Xenoamorphous 3y ago

I just had to have a baby and take a pushchair everywhere to see how not accessible a lot of places are.

alexmolas 3y ago

It surprises me that we need an abled person to pretend he's disabled to realize how difficult is to live as a disabled person. Why we don't just hear what disabled people tell us and trust them? Why do we trust the opinion of an abled person more than the opinion of disabled people? Don't get me wrong, I liked the article and it can be eye-opening. But it saddens me that sometimes we forget who's actually suffering this situation, and we empathize with a guy that spend only one week pretending to be disabled more than with actually disabled people.

theptip 3y ago
They are not advocating for you to listen to them over a disabled person. They are advocating for you to experience it directly, as they did, so you can better understand what it is like.

dang 3y ago

Discussed at the time: One week of empathy training - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20563679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20563679 - July 2019 (83 comments)

Balgair 3y ago

I used to work with upper limb amputees. Learned a lot there. There's a standardized testing kit for prostheses and injuries that's surprisingly low tech and amazingly useful: The Southampton Hand Assessment Procedure (SHAP) It's very basic. Things like pouring a glass of milk, opening a deadbolt, tying a shoe, picking up a quarter, buttoning a shirt, etc. Being able to pass any of these quite simple tests is very forgiving, you've got unlimited time to do it. But the very large majority of prostheses fail outright. I never really though of how hard it was to just hold a cup of coffee before that, nor to build a prosthetic that could close a jar of jam. Really opened my eyes to the world around me. Disability tech is human tech, full stop. What helps a wheelchair bound person helps a pregnant one, and a veteran, and an old one too. We grow stronger by making things possible for all of us. http://www.shap.ecs.soton.ac.uk/about-usage.php http://www.shap.ecs.soton.ac.uk/about-usage.php

Khelavaster 3y ago

It's a little obtuse to "pretend to be deaf" and not use text relay...

jrmg 3y ago
The ability to use these services is built in to modern phones. iPhone, for example: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207033 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207033
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OJFord 3y ago
He was pretending to be dumb, not deaf, but yes seems that should still work and realistically what you'd do. I can understand not taking pretending as far as using a wheelchair though, seems you could too easily end up in situations where you have to try to explain No no I'm on the side of people with disabilities, I'm not taking the piss, etc.
Karunamon 3y ago
This struck me as well. Not using the service whose entire reason for existence is "sometimes you need to use the phone and there are no equivalent options" seems like a self-own unless I am missing something. At least in the United States there are various apps and sites you can use that are free that will provide relay services. I had to avail myself of this a few times when some respiratory bug made me impossible to understand speaking but I could still type.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  The UK has this app: https://www.relayuk.bt.com/ https://www.relayuk.bt.com/ Seems free and easy to use, for both deaf people and people who can't use their phone. Available though smartphones or dedicated devices. I think it's completely fair to expect someone to use this service for the occasional phone call.

dheera 3y ago

> Terence: If I want to cancel my account (without using the phone) what can I do? > John: the only option though is by calling . Comcast told me this exact same thing but I just told them that section 9(a) of their Xfinity Residential Services Agreement allows for termination by e-mail and that I was providing the agreed notice and will withhold payments effective immediately. They shut up after that. I'm not deaf but I've claimed to be on multiple occasions to avoid dealing with a customer service phone call. They want me on the phone? Pay me for my lost hours.

FigurativeVoid 3y ago

I used to date a person who needed to use a wheelchair from time to time. Not only is the world inaccessible, but there are so many grandfathering rules that most places don’t have to change. Something this article misses is that many people act totally inappropriately to people using various aids. They used to have people question why they needed a chair. They had people call them wheels in public.

joker_minmax 3y ago
I mention this in my comment too - sexual harassment about the wheelchair I've seen in person.
- deleted 3y ago
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IshKebab 3y ago
The thing I've noticed in the UK with a buggy is the insane lack of dropped kerbs. Why? Does it really cost a lot more to have a slightly different shaped kerb? They also seem to have a terrible habit of putting them in the inconvenient places that they want you to walk, not where people actually walk. E.g. set back 10m from a t-junction. So even if there are dropped kerbs it's still significantly more inconvenient if you actually have to use them.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Dropped kerbs are a moderately expense more, especially in time. And they're rarely retrofitted; there's one missing on a path we take and I always forget about it, and even just a stroller is a pain to get over. I don't see how a wheelchair could; they'd have to go down the (relatively not busy) street to the nearest driveway.
rdtsc 3y ago
> there are so many grandfathering rules that most places don’t have to change. Indeed. It's especially hard in a poor areas. I used to live with a disabled person and things like cracks in the sidewalk, or bumps from roots, or potholes, look like nothing to people who can walk. To someone in a wheelchair they can prevent them from going through. They city was too poor and run down to get to it. Older parts of town, are also almost impossible to access. > They used to have people question why they needed a chair. They had people call them wheels in public. I noticed this is at the airport. People in a wheelchair often get priority sitting. But to request a wheelchair doesn't require any proof. So, people learned to take advantage of it. May even get an assistant to push them around the airport. And then, as soon as the flight lands, people are miraculously "healed" and don't need a wheelchair any longer. They think it's a harmless thing: "it's allowed anyway", "I paid a lot of money for this ticket", "not breaking any rules", etc but what they are doing is they are creating animosity and suspicion in the general public who now feel anyone in a wheelchair in the airport is "cheating" to get ahead of the line and get a better spot for their carry-on luggage.

joker_minmax 3y ago

I do think this is important as an awareness exercise, however, it is worth noting that a lot of the issues CANNOT be seen unless you actually do bring the wheelchair. I learned this in 2018 when as a student I attended a conference with a fellow disabled student in Chicago. I was responsible for pushing her (she could use her arms but it was faster to navigate the city if one of us pushed). Not all train stations have a wide enough platform for wheelchairs to roll across, so your mobility is limited by which stations you can use for the train, which means walking farther from the station to where you actually wanted to go. Accessible hotel room with a pushbutton door shut too quickly for her to get into the threshold. Thankfully one of us was there to hit the button again each time she needed it reopened, but sometimes you had to physically catch and push the (heavier than normal) door before the button would re-open it. If you were just "thinking" about being a wheelchair user, and not actually trying to navigate this, you would not have a sense of the timing of this door. Another complication was her foot in a cast sticking out. The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a crowd. The general attitude toward the disabled, in that environment, is unkind at best. When I was a child (in the US), the science museum in my hometown had an exhibit dedicated to the ADA. You got into a wheelchair and tried to do tasks. It showed how payphones at a certain height are too high to reach, how difficult it would be to go up a ramp with an unapproved slope, etc. I wonder if it's still there, because that was my first foray into thinking this way. The Chicago trip however, basically radicalized me. The article has a reference point of the UK and I don't know what their laws are with regards to accessibility. But it's clear that in both countries public attitudes toward accessibility have a very long way to go. And I'm sure most other countries can say this as well.

adhesive_wombat 3y ago
The UK has, in absolute terms, rather poor accessibility. Maybe better then many places, and the law is allegedly on the right side, but in practice you don't want to rely on anything in particular being accessible without scoping it out first. I used a wheelchair for one day, and after nearly killing myself trying to get over kerb on a slope (from the hospital car park to the hospital), resolved to use under-armpit crutches instead. It's a rare thing that makes you feel privileged to be able to use those painful things! Trains are a good recent example. Most trains are extremely inaccessible, with a foot or two of steps up into the carriage and a large, famously announced, gap. There are wheelchair ramps on platforms but you need to find staff to unlock and use them, or telephone ahead. They're about to remove thousands of ticket offices, so there may soon be no one there. Then when you get onto the station, if the lifts don't work, you'll be stuck on the platform. Assuming they have lifts. My local station doesn't have them at all. If I was in a wheelchair, I'd consider trains a complete no-go zone. Most buses near me are able to "kneel" and have wheelchair ramps, thankfully. Many commercial buildings in cities and suburbs are haphazardly shoved into old housing stock, so it's quite likely that at many places you will have several flights of stairs to deal with. If I'd been in a wheelchair, I'd have been unable to access the office at my first job, for example: four flights of stairs and a step at the door. I sometimes wonder if we as a society will end up actually curing all disabilities before making public things universally accessible.

vouaobrasil 3y ago

This is very sad but true. Life is harsh for a lot of people. I have a basic capacity to work and all my senses intact without any major pains and I am very thankful for it. It makes me want to find ways to improve life on this planet somehow.

seeknotfind 3y ago

Text to speech and speech to text app, powered by Whisper or the new tech, to allow deaf or mute to use the phone. Who's going to make it?

Karunamon 3y ago
I think you might be on to something here! The biggest problem with whisper right now that kills a lot of use cases is the requirement that you send discrete audio files rather than streams. However, if you have never had a textual relay conversation, one of the conventions is that each party needs to say/type "go ahead/GA" when they are done. If you can break upon catching that phrase, that might be sufficient for whisper usage!
catchnear4321 3y ago
not long from now, when you call support, you will get to talk to the same chat bot that’s on the web page / in the app, but it is on the phone. because it can now talk and listen. with text to speech and speech to text. to ensure equal access. enjoy.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I agree, it seems like we’re headed to the everybody suffers equally instead of everybody is benefited equally Perfect example from a link from yesterday: The removed a crosswalk because it was cheaper to be in compliance by removing it than fixing it [1] Said another way, nobody…from the traffic engineer to the city counsel…cared enough about the people impacted, that they lobbied or changed the system in such a way that would help the impacted person. Their inputs were ignored or overruled. [1] https://streets.mn/2023/07/19/if-we-want-a-shift-to-walking-we-need-to-prioritize-dignity/ https://streets.mn/2023/07/19/if-we-want-a-shift-to-walking-...
InvisibleUp 3y ago
These services have already existed for decades, with government-funded interpreters. They’re known as Telecommunications Relay Services and they come in a lot of varieties for one’s specific level of disability. There are apps now that have the same service using AI transcription instead of a live interpreter, which is nice, but it’s not world-changing.

fdhfdjkfhdkj 3y ago

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AndrewKemendo 3y ago

> Whether you work in tech or not - it is your duty to make sure that no one feels demoralised or rejected because of the systems you build. Shouting into the wind Until the financial incentives of investors, employees and customers align this will never be a priority

throwawa14223 3y ago
Or other people don't believe it to be a deontological style duty.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I don’t disagree with you, however we are talking about real people in society, not a theoretical philosophical system. I’m unaware of any wide scale explicitly adopted philosophy wherein there is zero responsibility from individuals to care for others or society. I am curious though what you would describe as your personal philosophy, or if you’re not talking about yourself then what ethics framework are you referring to living inside that does not have a normative component. Maybe a better way to ask it is: what relativistic philosophy is dominant enough or otherwise adopted to such an extent that people are able to functionally live underneath it without any type of a-priori responsibility to others. What I DO see however are people who reject responsibility for others, yet accept or even demand support from others - even if it’s tacit - and then hold a position like you describe. So I remain suspect of anyone promoting some extreme version of individualism, as it conflicts with not only biology, but the entire history of societies and philosophies.
coffeebeqn 3y ago
That will never happen? Ergo government regulations
josephg 3y ago
> Until the financial incentives of investors, employees and customers align this will never be a priority In some parts of the world, disabled people can sue businesses over accessibility issues. People complain about the “disability mafia” shaking down businesses, but I think it might be the only way to align incentives to actually get these problems reliably addressed.

Calavar 3y ago

Maybe a minority opinion here, but I find the idea of trying to see what it's like to live with a disability first hand without taking a minimum effort to understand the nature of the disability or how people with that disability typically deal with it is at best an exercise of very limited worth and and worst moderately offensive. The author quotes a statistic that 10% of the UK have speech difficulties. Does he believe that 1 out of 10 Brits is completely unable to hold a phone conversation? If not, then why is this the way he chooses to explore the disability? Assuming that he specifically wants to explore aphasia/dysarthria, did he ask an aphasic or dysarthric person how they approach having to make a phone call? If his goal is to truly understand the experience of living with their disability, how can he do that without approaching things the same way they do? Did he do the research to see that aphasia and dysarthria are disabilities that rarely occur in isolation? Because I don't see any discussion of that, and again, how can you understand the experience of an aphasic or dysarthric person without understanding the other disabilities that the average aphasic person also deals with?

kayodelycaon 3y ago
I’m of the same opinion. The author has no freaking clue. I broke my ankle in high school and I got zero support. All of the classes were on the third floor and the cafeteria was in the basement. 1. There was no elevator in the building. I had to use crutches to get up the stairs while carrying all of my textbooks. 2. I was required to attend gym class on the second floor of another building (no elevator) and change clothes in a room with no chairs or benches. Then I would sit in a chair while everyone did the assigned activities. 3. I was required to eat lunch in the cafeteria. I wasn’t given extra time. Occasionally there wouldn’t be enough food and I would get a single peanut butter sandwich while others had gone through the line twice before I got there. 4. I was late to every class and everyone watched me while the teacher waited for me to get to an assigned seat down a narrow isle. 5. I wasn’t given extra time to get to the bus after school. So I had to wait in detention for my mom to drive from work if I missed the bus. 6. Oh, I forgot, the second to last class of my day was on a different floor. So I had to go down and back up the stairs. I forgot how many weeks this went on until I had a walking cast. The whole thing lasted 8 weeks. The best part, I broke my ankle in gym class because I got tripped and knocked sideways during basketball. They called my mom to pick me up instead of calling an ambulance.

isykt 3y ago

Accessibility seems to be a blind spot for most in tech because we don’t think disability will happen to us, or if it does, it will be a long time from now. What people often don’t consider is that even if that is true, the likelihood that you will care for someone with a disability — an aging parent, a spouse, or a child - increases the likelihood of lack of accessibility impacting your ability to enjoy your (shared) life. My partner had a stroke. They can no longer walk steadily, and they likely never will. The number of times a certain thing we wanted to do went from idea to “guess not” is now incalculable. The logistics just become too onerous… and we’re lucky. We are high earners in a developed city.

javajosh 3y ago
>Accessibility seems to be a blind spot for most in tech because we don’t think disability will happen to us, or if it does, it will be a long time from now. I strongly disagree, and I worry that people are now trained to think the worst of themselves. Abledness is the Chrome of people: we code for the mainstream, the healthy, able people, and then if we have time we add support for the others. I don't think this is evil, or even wrong: it's a wise use of limited resources. There are far, far more error modes in a system (like the human body) than non-error modes. That's why people with disabilities really are more dependent on others. Like in the OP's case, they (quite reasonably) suggested that he get someone to help him on the phone. Why is that bad? I mean, consider the "disability" of not speaking the supported natural languages. Are all customer service teams supposed to speak all natural languages? Instead of self-flagellating, or flagellating orgs and govs for not covering an infinite number of issues, I think you should instead volunteer to be a helper for someone with a disability. If more people did that, then this issue would be all but moot. Putting the burden on service providers to do the job your friends, family, or helpers should be doing for the disabled doesn't seem fair. (And I say this as someone with a strong bias against central authority).
- mplewis 3y ago
  It is not a wise use of limited resources when we aim to build a society that serves all. A human without access to basic civilization is not an "error mode." They are a person that we need to help. Human civilization doesn't have to be a world where those with means get to enjoy consumption while those without starve. We have the resources to do better by everyone, not only the abled.

jacknews 3y ago

No doubt there are real issues with the way society is (not) designed to accommodate the less able, but this sortie seems to me to involve quite a bit of provocation and 'fake outrage'. For one thing, people are fairly sensitive to trolling atempts these days, so merely 'pretending' is maybe not good enough.

jsnell 3y ago

Most of the example challenges feel pretty odd. > Go a couple of weeks without using the phone. Which services are closed off to you? I think I've called a service provider of any kind once in the last five years. It didn't actually get me anything that text comms would not have. > Tell people you need an accessible venue for your meetings. How do they respond? The last time I spoke at a venue was like 8 years ago. The author doing it multiple times in a random week seems like quite an outlier. > Switch on subtitles and mute your favourite shows. Do they even have subtitles? What do you miss? I always have subtitles on in any TV show, streaming show, YouTube, etc. I can't even think of the last time it wasn't an option. (The subtitles for the news have a 15 second delay due to it being a real-time broadcast, which is a bit distracting but acceptable.)

navjack27 3y ago
So just because you could argue about all of these, they are all invalid?
- jsnell 3y ago
  I did not use the word "invalid", or anything like that. You've made that up. The author seems to think that this list is compelling, and that people will find it incredibly hard to do these challenges. But at least half the list is describing stuff that I know with certainty would be no trouble because it is either stuff I already do all the time, or has boundary conditions that have a <<1% chance of triggering. That's a lot more than "could argue". So the list seems pretty bad, and I would suggest would not actually have the effect the author suggests of building empathy.
mitthrowaway2 3y ago
For some reason Crave in Canada on AppleTV seems to have no subtitles whatsoever. I can't understand why.
- chronicsonic 3y ago
  This might be related to Apple, normally Apple is very good for accessibility, but even the BBC has challenges with subtitles on AppleTV, same with the Dutch NPO TV: “Why are there no subtitles on BBC iPlayer via Apple TV? There are technical challenges associated with delivering subtitles to Apple TV which will require a significantly different solution to that which we use on all other platforms. We are working towards it but don't currently have timelines associated with this support.” Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/apple-tv-subtitles https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessibility/a...

zmower 3y ago

Ah, cancelling Virgin Media. I've done this recently. I got upset. I shouted down the phone at them. I'm not surprised they're being invetigated by OFCOM https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jul/13/ofcom-investigates-virgin-media-over-complaints-contracts-hard-to-cancel https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jul/13/ofcom-investig...

Nexxxeh 3y ago
Took me well over an hour to cancel. When the guy in the OP explained his experience, all I could think was, "That's equality. An overwhelmingly shit customer service experience to all, disabled or not." I'm currently stuck with someone else's email account in my authorized users, a phone number as my contact number that I can't update (known VM issue atm apparently), and an strong desire to send their CEO recordings of me screaming.

navjack27 3y ago

The biggest disability I wish people would explore in their accessibility is issues with impulse control. So much of the web is designed to keep us hooked and I firmly believe that people that have issues with impulse control have a good handle on the obvious stuff moreso than people who don't because we are aware of the concept of choice more. But what about when it's your credit account that is sabotaging you by design? Can't cancel the account unless you call a phone number and talk to somebody. But if you want to increase your credit limit, you can just click a button on the website and validate how much you make a year and boom, you have a $7000 limit when you get $900 a month. So if you have a phone phobia and an issue with impulse control and you maybe stress spend, you now have a system totally against you by design. It's great to explore the world as someone with visible disabilities. Also do so with neurodivergence.

sergioisidoro 3y ago
I'm skeptical about calling it a disability, because a lot of these mechanisms and dark patterns are made to prey on everyone's nature. Some people may more susceptible to those stimuli, but I don't see it a disability, but as natural neurodiversity. These are plainly predatory and unethical marketing practices, for everyone!
- concordDance 3y ago
  A lot of disabilities are a sliding scale with fuzzy grey areas. E.g. visual impairment goes all the way from "struggling to distinguish colors" and "vision is distorted enough that it's impossible to correct to 20-20" to "can't see hand in from of face"
- Retric 3y ago
  Pay to win video games really are ultimately targeting a small demographic as a tiny percentage of the audience results in the majority of their income. The thing is they don’t know who specifically is vulnerable ahead of time, so they cast a wide net.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Neurodiversity is a nicer sounding term, to mask the fact that underneath there are certain life affecting disabilities - often severely life affecting (if it was just harmless "natural neurodiversity", it wouldn't translate to reduced life expectancy. Not to mention millions of cases which need constant assistance to make it througn everyday life). That it also targets "everyone's nature" doesn't mean it's not a bigger issue for people with certain neurodiversities affecting impulse control more. Same way a badly maintained road might also inconvenience a perfectly abled walker, but it is far more burdensome to a disabled person.

throw9away6 3y ago

I feel like things have gotten way worse in the last 4 years. Everyone has eliminated the human assistance so if your problem cannot be solved by the standard flow you are out of luck. Many places won’t pick up the phone, there is no way to escalate to a human. If you are disabled you are just a cost center and nobody will bother with you at all.

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throwaway290 3y ago

> If you don't have a voice, you're locked out of Virgin's upgrade and cancellation routes. Can't they be sued for that alone? Pretty sure there are lawyers making a living on things like this in the US...

arp242 3y ago

John from Virgin Media probably isn't a bad person, or unsympathetic to Terence's plight, but in his job there is almost certainly nothing he's able to do: The System™ just wasn't designed for it and he can't make an exception. I feel we've lost some things by introducing computerized systems everywhere. Everything is now neatly boxed off and as soon as you want something nonstandard – no matter how much sense it makes – it's "computer says no" everywhere. It's frustrating and humiliating for Terence, but also for John, who has to helplessly see someone in a difficult situation. Actually caring about Terence and the people like him he deals with every day would destroy John emotionally, so he does the only thing he can: not care. Which is "merely" corrosive, but at least doesn't destroy him. --- Last year I had a somewhat similar situation: after flying to Amsterdam I managed to just catch a train with a bit of a sprint. The bloke after me was in a wheelchair, but the train was about to leave and the conductor was on his own (with me, freshly arrived in the vestibule just on time). There's a gap between the train and platform so wheelchair users can't "just" board and the conductor couldn't lift him on board on his own. I naturally offered to help, as most people would, but was immediately rebuffed by the conductor. Since the train was already late it couldn't wait for another employee to arrive, so it just left, leaving the guy behind – the next train was an hour later. After the train left I chatted a bit with the conductor and he explained he couldn't accept my help for insurance reasons, and that it wasn't "responsible" to accept help from random strangers. On one hand, I can understand that, I guess... But on the other hand: what the actual fuck? How is this now considered acceptable in our society? I can't help but feel we've created a system where our humanity has been systemically stripped from us, and that this has become so normalized we don't even realize it. --- This affects everyone outside "the happy path"; homeless people are another classic example. People say "get a job" but this isn't easy without a fixed address, and renting something without a job is often impossible (even IF you actually have money), and you usually also can't get paid without a bank account, but getting an account requires a fixed address, etc. etc. There's all sorts of catch-22s – sometimes special systems exist to deal with this, but they're bandaids on top of a broken system and certainly in some countries "homeless" is so narrowly defined that it excludes huge swaths of homeless people.

hbrav 3y ago

It's kinda disappointing that handling someone being unable to call hadn't occurred to these companies previously. But what's pretty terrible is the attitude of customer service being "you just have to call, sorry". This all reminds me of the advice is Patrick McKenzie's blog post "Identity, Credit Reports and You." Specifically: you never want to deal with customer service, they are the Department of Fobbing People Off. You want to be communicating in writing with a lawyer, since lawyers have the power to tell other people in the business "you're creating liability, make this problem go away". In this case I think you don't have the same structure as in the credit report case (an act that says they must investigate and respond within X days), so for credibility you probably do need a lawyer writing a letter for you. But I strongly suspect that something like the following will generate a response: "Dear Sir/Madam, I represent [user]. My client is a customer of your business but is unable to access your services due to [disability]. He has communicated with your customer services (see attached screenshots) and requested they provide a means for him to access these services. Unfortunately they have declined to do so. [Relevant legislation] requires reasonable adjustments to be made in serving disabled customers, and my client and I believe that [adjustment] could easily be made by your business to allow customers with [disability] to access these services. Please advise us within [x days] what adjustments you plan to make to allow my client to access these services. Yours, [Lawyer]"

Affric 3y ago
In Australia, and the UK, you would go to the Ombudsman. At no charge. And your problem would be sorted.
PaulKeeble 3y ago
In my experience finding lawyers to represent you for these injustices is very hard. Disabled people also tend to be poorer and lawyers just aren't interested. Medical abuse of the chronically ill is a big area which lawyers refuse to deal with and it's rife with potential lawsuits. It's not this easy, everyone and I mean everyone treats you like your disposable.
- wombatpm 3y ago

Chris2048 3y ago

To be fair, you tried to find out "how society treats disabled people", then chose cancelling an internet subscription as the bellwether; This is painful and anger inducing when you aren't disabled.

mavili 3y ago

"This is discrimination. I don't know sign language and I don't have text relay. I can't use my voice." This his reply to instructions telling him he can ask for sign language or use text relay if he cannot use his voice. I hardly see this as discrimination. This is in no way different from a perfectly able person saying it's discrimination to expect me to read and write! Sign language is the language of the voiceless. Life isn't perfect. Of course we should do as much as we can to make life for the disabled easier. But seriously people feel so entitled and expect so much from everyone. People need to accept that not everyone can accommodate 100% of needs. Governments should, but not private entities.

kvetching 3y ago
Hilarious that people downvoted this. The writer is fooling you all. Virgin literally provided solutions to his issue. A text relay service is the answer if you must speak on the phone. I remember using AT&T text relay as far back as early 2000s. Any person that can't speak would be totally familiar with this solution.
edent 3y ago
Let's say that tomorrow you get a really bad sore throat. Like, the worst. So bad that you can't speak. How much sign language do you know right now? Disabilities can be temporary or situational. They can be long-term or sudden.
- mavili 3y ago
  I'd wait until my sore throat is gone. And if I have a disability for longer I'd have to learn to navigate the world my friend. Just like me and you have had to learn to read and write. Funny enough, we also had to learn to use a phone. Oh how dare companies expect us to know use a phone and dial a few digits!
  - edent 3y ago
    And this is why it is called "empathy" training.
  - 3y ago

moomoo11 3y ago

Honestly life would be way better if we just helped each other a little bit without expecting anything in return. I think in most capitalist circles (I’m in one, and I like capitalism) people have lost their view of other people as people. We look at people as customers and group them into profiles. If we looked at people as people, and not just automatons who will purchase something from us, I think society would progress quite a lot. I don’t think there’s a way to do this since the majority just wants something that meets their effort:time spent ratio. However… It sucks that we put in AI chat bots that will never work as a substitute for human care. It sucks that we make all these horrendous UX decisions that are hard to navigate for most people who aren’t 20. It sucks that we don’t offer service for expensive products after selling them. Why can’t I fix my own devices easily anymore?

devteambravo 3y ago

I spent some time discussing this with my buddy, who ate an RPG round in close proximity, while serving in Iraq. He gradually lost his vision, all of it. It's so depressing to even think back on the chats, as I cannot imagine living w/o the internet I grew up on. Does anyone want to pair up and work on software that treats disabled users with respect? And who know, maybe make something a deaf or blind or N player can experience? I lived a lot of live w/ 100% brain capacity, not really making use of it, and then it was taken from me in an IED blast (Afghanistan). What I lack in skills, I guarantee you I will make up with experience. A frustrated Infantryman turned UX/UI/Product afficionado (and $90k startup employee)

baz00 3y ago

Cursed with the two shittiest UK organisations in existence there. Having dealt with Virgin Media and Thames Water for years they are quite frankly abhorrent even if you don't have a disability. From piss and rubbish filled street junction boxes and outages for days at a time to poor maintenance leading to a lingering smell of shit and mosquitos that actually devalued property in my area, they should be utterly shafted by everyone who can for every mistake they make. Vote with your feet if you can.

xyzelement 3y ago

Great article and a good reminder to focus on accessibility. There's good news though. Although being disabled is difficult, it is less difficult now than at any other period in history. The amount of awareness, accommodation, accessibility focus, etc is maximum right now and it's only going to continue. It's important to keep this progress in mind as we work to further improve things. Another point is that people living with disabilities have years or decades of expertise, something that someone "cosplaying" (to use the author's word) has no access to. A cosplayer wouldn't know which streets are easiest with a wheel chair or which companies have the most accessible websites. An actual disabled person has this sort of knowledge and would navigate it far better than a "tourist" There's lot of work to be done but it's important to acknowledge what's better than it may seem at first.

lijok 3y ago

What a strange article. I want to believe the author has good intentions but I can't help but feel they're virtue signalling. If one really wanted to understand what disabled people are dealing with, you should volunteer some time at a care home, not pretend to have a disability without understanding what that disability entails or being aware of existing coping strategies and tools for said disabilities. Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have would have been able to navigate the situations the author encountered. So what insights have we gained from the authors experience?

bone_frequency 3y ago
I also believe it is an obvious virtue signal piece, but to be fair, I also think he exposed some valid cases in that post. Are there really coping strategies and tools for all these problems?
saboot 3y ago
>> Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have would have been able to navigate the situations the author encountered How do you know this? Also, I downvoted your comment because 'virtue signalling' is non-sense phrase.
- lijok 3y ago
  > How do you know this? Experience > Also, I downvoted your comment because 'virtue signalling' is non-sense phrase. Might want to let Oxford know, they'll have to do a reprint
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
dns_snek 3y ago
> Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have would have been able to navigate the situations the author encountered. Care to elaborate? This very thread contains countless anecdotes affirming author's findings.

rawland 3y ago

This. Being disabled sucks even more. Because there is no "now I opt out" decision as the author could do. Kudos to doing the exercise.

lamontcg 3y ago

I have to actually deal with stuff like this in real life with my disabled Mother, but for some reason this article just irritates me. Reads like its preaching to a bunch of liberals engaged in self-flagellation so they feel like they have empathy, but nothing is actually going to get done. Anyone going to form a Union at work so that people can work together to effectively push back on Management cutting support budgets and implementing dark patterns and just outright neglecting disabled people, or will it just be enough that we all feel bad about this and nothing will happen?

SirMaster 3y ago

I'm confused. Wouldn't a person with no voice simply use a text-to-speech system to communicate over the phone? It doesn't look like they tried any such thing.

l0b0 3y ago

I got into web accessibility early in my career, and would've probably done a lot more work there if anyone anywhere had given two shits. Trying to prioritise even basic stuff like alt text or keyboard shortcuts for the most important parts of a site were not interesting to any employers. Accessibility is really just an afterthought even when companies claim to be doing it.

boringuser2 3y ago

This is like going to the gym and trying to do someone else's set of heavy squats without ever having squatted in your life. That person has adapted to that burden and you aren't really learning anything by failing to tackle it.