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Dropped iPad implicated in fatal Rotak Chinook helicopter crash
- UnixSchizoid 3y agoWas he possibly using it as a dashboard of sorts? Edit: I didn’t read the article fully and was guessing, I have been corrected by the comments
- TMWNN 3y agoThe article itself discusses this: >Apple iPads and other so-called electronic flight bags (EFBs) have become common equipment in aircraft cockpits, used for flight planning, as a supplemental navigation aid, and to replace paper documents, among other purposes.
- UnixSchizoid 3y agoah, I didnt see that part. Thanks for that
- vorpalhex 3y agoWhat an unfortunate accident. I'm surprised anything loose in the cabin isn't tethered in whether it's a tablet or a clipboard.
- dharmab 3y agoA common checklist item is to secure any "FOD" (Foreign Object Debris"). For example some pilots will strap their clipboard or iPad to their legs as a "kneeboard".
- nvy 3y agoI used to be in military SAR and the powers that be required helo crews to keep their EFBs/iPads in a clip with suction mounts, similar to what you see in cars for phones. Those regs are well established. Whether these guys were following them remains to be determined.
- jmbwell 3y agoOof. Suction cups? I can already hear it coming loose and hitting the floorboards. I’d be pushing for something more robust like a clamp-on/bolt-on RAM mount or something. We put RAM mounts on forklifts for iPads and barcode scanners, and they’re nigh indestructible.
- dharmab 3y agoSuction cups are extremely secure when used correctly (clean flat smooth surfaces). GoPro advertises theirs as secure in a 150MPH wind when used correctly.
- brewdad 3y agoI would hope they are something really robust like the suction cups used to move large pieces of glass around. Still seems like an odd choice given the variety of temperatures and pressures experienced in flight.
- dharmab 3y agoThe cockpits are environmentally controlled- otherwise the equipment inside could overheat or freeze.
- nvy 3y agoThe mounts we used went through an airworthiness and crash survivability review. The ones I'm familiar with had dual suction cups and the cups themselves were pretty significant.
- jollofricepeas 3y agoThat’s sad. I can only imagine the amount of panic they must have went through. I wonder what other fatal accidents have been caused by dropped electronics such as iPads and iPhones getting stuck under accelerators and brake pedals in cars and long haul trucks as an example. There’s obviously distracted driving as well which is a major problem.
- criddell 3y agoI flew recently and part of the pre-flight announcement now is if you drop a phone or other electronic device between seats, do not try to retrieve it. Call a flight attendant and let them retrieve it. Apparently, people have dropped their phone then while trying to retrieve it, moved the seat and bent the phone, puncturing the battery.
- edgineer 3y agoIn this case it was not the attempt to retrieve the tablet that caused the accident, it was being unable to reach it to remove it from being jammed in the pedals.
- Edd314159 3y agoI did this a few years ago during taxi before take-off, in a business class seat on a flight to Tokyo (I’m not bragging, it’s literally the only time in my life I’ve ever not flown economy) I had to move to another seat when I wanted to recline it for sleeping, because the crew (quite rightly) didn’t want my iPhone getting chewed up in the mechanism. Despite me using my Apple Watch to make the “find me!” ping sound, nobody could find it during the flight, so they had to partly dismantle the seat when we landed. It was all very embarrassing, I had to stand there for 20 minutes watching ground crew take it apart. I didn’t dare tell anyone that I didn’t turn it onto airplane mode before I dropped it.
- ghaff 3y agoWhile the consequences are less severe, losing them in the seat is one reason I absolutely will not use wireless earphones when flying. I did drop a phone once into a seat but the flight attendant was able to recover it. > didn’t dare tell anyone that I didn’t turn it onto airplane mode before I dropped it. I try to remember if only to preserve battery life but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people don't.
- latchkey 3y agoIt could have been a book, an ipad, a phone, camera, anything really... I wonder if the general design could be changed to help prevent anything from falling between the pedal and the wall...
- unilynx 3y agoBut if you know there's always going to be an iPad around the cockpit, you can advise the pilots to have a fixed method of securing it Of course there's always something else that can go wrong, but a big part of why flying is so safe today is that they've gone through a lot of trouble to enumerate and mitigate everything that has gone wrong in the past
- Etrnl_President 3y agoA lanyard securing it to airframe or wrist, with a quick-disconnect in case of entanglement?
- alistairSH 3y agoIt common to use a "kneeboard"[1] to secure an EFB to the pilot's thigh. I'm surprised it's not standard practice and that a loose EFB is ever acceptable. 1 - https://www.67d.com/cdn/shop/files/KneeboardwithiPad11Pro-2260_750x750.png?v=1687818196 https://www.67d.com/cdn/shop/files/KneeboardwithiPad11Pro-22...
- nsxwolf 3y agoWhen I used to fly (pre-iPad) I used a kneeboard for my paper charts, pencils, etc. Great to know that everything is right there and isn't falling on the floor.
- kgilpin 3y agoSome people don't like knee boards because you have to move your head up-down-up-down to use it, and that can be disorienting, especially in poor visibility conditions (when external visual references are minimal). There are other types of mounts available, such as suction mounts, that mount the device closer to eye level, but while robust these are not as secure as built-in equipment. The overheat problem is real as well, but having your iPad shut down in flight is nowhere near as big a deal as having it jam in the rudder pedals. Further reading: https://airfactsjournal.com/2018/10/how-spatial-disorientation-can-trap-pilots/ https://airfactsjournal.com/2018/10/how-spatial-disorientati...
- steve76 3y ago[dead]
- wpietri 3y agoFor anybody that liked the style of this sort of analysis, let me strongly recommend Dekker's "Field Guide to Understanding 'Human Error'": https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Understanding-Human-Error/dp/1472439058 https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Understanding-Human-Error... It focuses on air crash investigations. But it's very useful to tech people in understanding the right way to approach incident investigations. It can be very easy to blame individuals ("stupid pilot shouldn't have dropped his iPad", etc), but that focus prevents improving safety over the long term. Dekker's book is a great argument for, as here, thinking about what actually happened and why as a systemic thing. Which provides much more fertile ground for making sure it doesn't happen again.
- teachrdan 3y agoThe "Accidents in North American Climbing" series is a great intro to this style of analysis, too. A number of compelling, short accounts, usually with actionable analysis at the end. You get the added bonus of learning new things, like what an "air hammer" is, and how getting knocked out of your tent by one can help save you from an avalanche. https://www.amazon.com/Accidents-North-American-Climbing-2021/dp/1735695645 https://www.amazon.com/Accidents-North-American-Climbing-202...
- Etrnl_President 3y agoAlways check your equipment for F.O.D.
- gpvos 3y agoFOD = Foreign Object Debris
- dingaling 3y ago*Damage The use of Debris is a recent corruption of the term, apparently in an attempt to nounify the acronym. It's also tautologous; if it's a foreign object then implicitly it's debris.
- kunwon1 3y agoI learned the definition as 'Foreign Objects and Debris' when I was trained in the USAF in 2001, but I recently read an FAA document that used a different definition. I'm not sure there is agreement on what this acronym actually stands for.
- gpvos 3y agoIn the context of TFA, debris seems more appropriate? Anyway I was just sharing something I quickly looked up, and this was the first meaning that made sense.
- tiahura 3y agoDidn’t this happen on an Airbus at least once? I seem to remember hearing that pilot’s iPhone got wedged behind the joystick and pushed the nose down until he could knock it loose.
- jaywalk 3y agoThere's not really anywhere for an iPhone to get wedged around the side stick on an Airbus.
- TT-392 3y agoI think that was a camera
- PuffinBlue 3y agoIt was an RAF Voyager (Airbus A-330) I think you are referring to and a DSLR camera (Nikon D5300) that became wedged as you say[0]. The item didn't get knocked loose, it was the plane automation that saved the flight. The auto-pilot self-corrected and levelled off when it detected prolonged dangerous pitch down input[1]. [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/service-inquiry-incident-involving-voyager-zz333-on-9-february-2014 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/service-inquiry-i... [1] Page 37 of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/414367/20150317_-_Voyager_ZZ333_SI_Report_Part_1.4_Part_2_Ex_Pub.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- nayuki 3y agoMini Air Crash Investigation: How A Camera Sent This Passenger Jet Into A Terrifying NoseDive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VGsnztTo4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VGsnztTo4A
- Mawr 3y agoProbably a better video from MentourPilot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl-Fl66Jfao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl-Fl66Jfao
- 3y ago
- the__alchemist 3y agoSome loose thoughts: Military aircraft cockpits sometimes don't have a great concept of "inside" and "outside", the way a cell, waterproof device, the aircraft's pressure seal etc do. If you drop something (FOD), there may not be a clearly defined boundary to where it can end up, or it may not be possible to see or get to it while strapped in etc. Rudder pedals, or the various mechanical and electrical connections around them, as indicated in the article, are a great example of this. If you can't find it, the AC may have to be grounded and thoroughly searched/panels removed etc. Military avionics may be missing basic things that an EFB can help with, including maps, nav point and airport databases, weather info, ADSB info etc. EFBs are (IMO) a poor substitute due to the FOD concern here, the clunky touch screen interface (which you probably have to take gloves off for), the risk of getting locked out of important things like checklist and plates by BlackBerry, Foreflight licenses, passcode timers or other security layer etc. You might have a jet that's 30 years old, just got retrofitted with a really nice radar etc, but the funding didn't make it through for a database, better displays/UI etc that would be better integrated with a jet, so you lean on the EFBs. There are sometimes EFB mounts that can attach to a canopy via suction cup, clip onto various surfaces etc.
- rsynnott 3y ago> If you can't find it, the AC may have to be grounded and thoroughly searched/panels removed etc. _Why_ is this? Weight reduction or something? On the face of it it sounds like a design flaw.
- PuffinBlue 3y agoI think the article and this mishap is an example of the reason why - if you can't find a dropped and loose object in the cockpit then you can't fly the aircraft because it may move in flight to somewhere where it can interfere with the controls. In writing this answer it struck me you might be reading AC as Air Conditioning, instead of AirCraft, which I suppose could have lead to your question asking about weight reduction.
- lukeschlather 3y ago
- elicash 3y agoI know nothing about helicopters, but just from driving a car I'd imagine there are a variety of ways the pedal can jam even without something falling in that space. Does a helicopter have an equivalent of shifting your car into neutral? (Which, given you're in the air, might not be a good idea ha. But hopefully you get my gist.)
- colechristensen 3y agoThe thing about helicopters is they are maintained to an insane level from an outside perspective. Parts have lifespans where you replace them when they’re expired regardless of condition, they go through intense inspections, pilots are experts. Things tend to not just “jam”. There is a concept of disconnecting the engine from the rotors, but it’s not the kind of thing that happens accidentally.
- alistairSH 3y agoThe automobile equivalent would be something jamming your steering wheel to one side - even if you decoupled the motor from the rotor (and tried to auto-gyro to safety), the helicopter would still be stuck in a sideways spiral.
- jldugger 3y agoYea, autogyro (which I only know about due to this vid[1]) sounds like the answer to OP's question, but that would not (and clearly _did not) save this Chinook from what happened. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiTuwQGImNo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiTuwQGImNo
- jaclaz 3y agoThe autogyro is a type of airplane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro You mean autorotation, I believe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation
- 3y ago
- pengaru 3y agoI've only flown RC helis, more like, attempted to fly them before inevitably always crashing. At least whenever it was a full-blown "collective pitch" model. Can't imagine how mortifying it must have been to have any of the controls jammed up like that. These things require constant corrective inputs to remain airborne in anything resembling stable flight. And close to the ground loading water from a stream, with all that turbulence? Nightmare fuel.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 3y agoThe Navpad is a simple device that secures gadgets to your thigh. https://www.diblasi.com/aviation.htm https://www.diblasi.com/aviation.htm Stuff gets dropped. Suction cup mounts have the habit of coming loose at inopportune times.
- blantonl 3y agoEFB (Electronic Flight Bags) have introduced all kinds of usability issues with aircraft that pilots must account for, and not just for mechanical reasons. Objects getting jammed into flight controls isn't an ipad phenomenon - clipboards, water bottles, etc all have contributed to mishaps. One major issue with EFBs is many pilots extensive reliance on them for navigation and traffic avoidance, and their failure in flight since they are commercial off the shelf products. A very common issue during the summer months is for an iPad to very easily overheat and just shut down. Another is battery life. iPads are consumer electronic devices and aren't held to even a semblance of tolerances that aircraft avionics are held to, but they are relied upon as critial tools in flight now. I've directly seen instances of aircraft that have violated airspace, gotten lost, and other issues that contribute just one more hole to the "swiss cheese" model of a catastrophic loss.
- bredren 3y agoThe ill-fated submersible Titan has been routed for its use of consumer grade hardware in displays and controls. I doubt it’s the only vessel to rely on this class of electronics. I wonder what it means that despite the risks involved these products continue to make it into mission critical workflows at sea and air.
- legitster 3y agoOn the USS Indiana you can seem them proudly highlighting the US of an Xbox controller: https://youtu.be/0StWrXoN8nI?t=509 https://youtu.be/0StWrXoN8nI?t=509 (Also note the insane amount of screens in the control room). But highlighting the gamepad on the Titan seems like more of a "gotcha" that journalists have latched onto than a legitimate concern. It almost certainly didn't fail because of consumer grade hardware - it failed because of poor engineering of its hull.
- dragonwriter 3y agoUsing a witeless gamepad as the primary maneuvering controls of a manned undersea vessel without an onboard backup is one (of very many) indications of reckless corner cutting, but, yes, not particularly likely the critical failure point.
- FabHK 3y agoSomewhat related: An Icon A5 amphibious airplane [1] came down [2] because the occupants left a bluetooth speaker on top which hit the propeller upon take-off... You have to treat aircraft a bit more carefully than cars. (No fatalities, fortunately.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICON_A5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICON_A5 [2] https://www.aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236728 https://www.aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236728
- _trampeltier 3y agoMemorys. My sister once left a candle in the car. When i was driving down from a mountain (Oberalppass, Switzerland), the candle rolled under the break peddal just before a hard u-turn. Super scary feeling when you hit the break and nothing does happen. I hit the break a second time with full force, the candle got pushed away and the ABS safed me.
- throitallaway 3y ago*brake
- exabrial 3y agoReminds me of the time I helped fish a mechanical pencil out of grand piano. It was dropped in _just_ the right spot that it jammed the sustain pedal open, but was completely unreachable, and the pianists sort of made the problem worse. Ended up using some mountain bike tools to get it out ironically (Park Tool IR-1.2). It's very sad to see a tragedy like this caused by something so simple :(
- jacquesm 3y agoEliane Rodrigues had something like that happen, she dealt with it in the most graceful and hilarious way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBbRTRBY4D4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBbRTRBY4D4
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y agoThere was some F1 driver a long time ago whose throttle jammed just as he was about to enter a turn. It cleared up after exiting, but now he realized that he could safely take that turn at wide open throttle and went on to win the race.
- olliej 3y agoEchoes of RAF Voyager ZZ333, where a camera jamming against a control caused an uncontrolled pitched down.
- amelius 3y agoReminds me that it happens quite often that e.g. a water bottle or a jar of apple sauce gets lodged under the brake pedal of a car.
- nier 3y agoBoth sets of pedals are of course linked so that the second pilot could never have brought the helicopter out of this predicament. Would an input monitoring and control system like on large airplanes have avoided the crash? There’s an answer [0] on Quora that describes helicopter instructors having to deal with students frozen out of fear and wrestling for control of the inputs. Nightmare. [0]: https://www.quora.com/What-happens-if-the-pilot-and-copilot-push-the-stick-or-pedals-in-opposite-directions-on-a-Blackhawk-helicopter https://www.quora.com/What-happens-if-the-pilot-and-copilot-...
- Mawr 3y ago> Would an input monitoring and control system like on large airplanes have avoided the crash? Not at all, for example Airbus aircraft "helpfully" average out the inputs. There's a dual input warning, but warnings are weak at preventing accidents. Some instances where the awful UX around the handling of dual input by aircraft contributed to incidents: - https://youtu.be/6tIVu0Dpc2o?t=1754 https://youtu.be/6tIVu0Dpc2o?t=1754 - https://youtu.be/V2mMs-h4qGE?t=949 https://youtu.be/V2mMs-h4qGE?t=949 - https://youtu.be/Dl-Fl66Jfao?t=977 https://youtu.be/Dl-Fl66Jfao?t=977 - https://youtu.be/tXGET4-N9FA?t=983 https://youtu.be/tXGET4-N9FA?t=983 - https://youtu.be/e5AGHEUxLME?t=2259 https://youtu.be/e5AGHEUxLME?t=2259 & https://youtu.be/e5AGHEUxLME?t=2876 https://youtu.be/e5AGHEUxLME?t=2876 IMO, this is a critical design flaw with all current aircraft that should be addressed ASAP but what do I know :)
- morsch 3y agoTrue, though at least they are not physically linked and you can disable the averaging. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-stick https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-stick
- FullyFunctional 3y agoA former coworker had a bad car crash after his cat jumped down between his feet! When I took driving lesson, my instructor painted a vivid picture of the consequence of a crash while transporting heavy unsecured objects behind me - that lesson has stayed with me for over 30 years.
- Simulacra 3y agoI'm surprised they wouldn't have had that strapped to a thigh, or mounted.
- telecomadmin 3y ago[flagged]