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Disney, Netflix, and more are fighting FTC's 'click to cancel' proposal

703 points by isaacfrond 3y ago

stackedinserter 3y ago
The first thing you'll see on this page is a popup panel asking you to subscribe, without "nope" button (at least I couldn't find it).
VictoriousMan 3y ago
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SudokuMaster4u 3y ago
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SudokuMaster4u 3y ago
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corden_kimmel1 3y ago
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corden_kimmel1 3y ago
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qaz_plm 3y ago
https://archive.is/M2Qe1 https://archive.is/M2Qe1
WeylandYutani 3y ago
I have switched to prepaid gift cards instead of giving apps the right to take money from my bank account. No payment information linked to Google- got burned by auto renewal once and never again.
- jkaplowitz 3y ago
  Not paying a debt you legitimately owe doesn’t eliminate the legitimacy of the debt. Most app owners probably won’t take any further action against you because it’s not usually worth the time and money (at least in the US), but they’re entitled to. If they sell your debt to a debt collector, have fun with that. (Tangent: there is usually a certain number of years of inaction after which they can’t go after you for the debt, unless you again acknowledge the debt. The details and the ways to reset that clock vary by jurisdiction.)
  - strangetortoise 3y ago
    Non-USA here (which might affect things): Isn't the point of paying with e.g. a Netflix gift card that they auto-cancel/pause your subscription to Netflix after the gift card runs out of funds? How would that incur a debt?
    - glimshe 3y ago
      The subscription is a recurrent commitment that you sign up for through a contract. They cancel it automatically because they don't want to bother collecting the money - it's expensive to do so and will lead to permanent churn. But they can; it's your problem to fix the payment method to cover your monthly/yearly commitment. All they have to do is to keep the service available and put something in the contract to that effect. It's similar with power/water bills. They can't/won't cut utilities, a form of subscription with a fixed cost in addition to the usage cost, right away (there is a process for that), but you owe the money all the way until they are cut.
      - Sharlin 3y ago
        Does redeeming a service’s own gift card really tie the user to a perpetual rather than fixed-term agreement?
        teeray 3y ago
        In the US, yes. If the letter of the contract says that you are responsible for a monthly payment, how that debt is settled every month does not change the terms of the contract. A gift card just allows you to settle the debt with a mutual debt owed.
glimshe 3y ago
I prefer that the government doesn't go too heavy handed with the rule and try to solve all problems with requirements such as maintaining detailed phone records. We don't want huge costs of compliance making it harder for small players to enter the market. I think the rule of "sign up online, cancel online using a clearly visible option in the account settings", plus the legalese to cover corner cases, would be a huge improvement. Making it difficult to cancel a subscription is the oldest trick on the book and is tantamount to fraud.
- xg15 3y ago
  How many interstitials would you allow after the clearly visible option in the account settings?
  - ericmay 3y ago
    The same amount it takes to sign up
    - muro 3y ago
      You might need name, address etc as part of the sign up, but if they made me enter all of that againz it would be infuriating.
      - ziftface 3y ago
        I agree, that would be super annoying, but at the same time the law would still be mostly working this case, since you still don't need to eg fax a form or have to get on a long phone call. I think "the effort you need to sign up" is a reasonable ceiling, and while it's unfortunate if a company decides to be petty and make you enter your address again, that same company would probably do more if they were given the legal right to do so.
      - dspillett 3y ago
        That isn't signing up, that is filling out a profile and/or stating/proving who you are (for payment processing & fraud prevention purposes). While it is often closely linked to “signing up” it is not actually a direct part of it. Even if you consider it all to be part of the sign-up, it could be a single form so the match of “as many forms to cancel as to sign-up” still works: this one form for signing up, the “are you sure, this is why you might prefer not to” page being its opposite at the other end.
throwaway2990 3y ago
This is why I don’t want alternative payment options on iOS. It’s 1 click cancel on subscriptions. It’s enforced and they have no say or cannot make it difficult for me to cancel.
- littlecranky67 3y ago
  The UX is great, but not worth paying 30% more.
  - mr_mitm 3y ago
    43% more. The dev gets 70% of the value on the price tag, so that value is 1/0.7=1.428 of what the dev gets.
  - throwaway2990 3y ago
    Singapore a year of Disney plus is $120 from Disney. It’s $120 on iOS. HBO go is same price. Prime video is same price. The only one I can’t pay for is Netflix. So your point is moot.
    - batch12 3y ago
      > So you point is mute. Point is moot
      - throwaway2990 3y ago
        Didn’t even notice I wrote mute haha thanks.
        frankfrankfrank 3y ago
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    - littlecranky67 3y ago
      You are right, and of course there is not always a surcharge. I myself am a big fan of easy it is to cancel when using Apple Subscriptions. However, there are tons of online services that WILL charge your a significantly higher subscription fee, when using Apple Pay (Tinder is a prominent one).
littlecranky67 3y ago
This legal click-to-cancel requirements are already implemented in Germany.
ivolimmen 3y ago
One of the great perks of living in the Netherlands. We already have this. If you can sign up in 1 minute using the web you must also be able to cancel in one minute using the web (For the Dutch: Wet van Dam). This rule is only for consumers not for businesses. Consumers are very well protected here.
- terinjokes 3y ago
  I keep running into Dutch e-commerce sites that advertise prices without fees and VAT, and I haven't figured out who I'm supposed to complain to. Just yesterday, the first indication the prices weren't accurate is when I saw the real total in iDEAL.
  - bobviolier 3y ago
    I am from the Netherlands, and I never see prices without VAT on websites. What is an example? Edit: not saying your lying, just thinking it might be geo related sometimes?
    - terinjokes 3y ago
      I was buying tickets for an upcoming music concert here in Amsterdam. The map showing prices in different sections was one price, but they wanted €74 extra in "total fees", and an additional €14 in VAT.
      - akvadrako 3y ago
        That VAT only covers the extra fees; it's 21%.
        terinjokes 3y ago
        I only noticed that after writing the comment. Still feels wrong to advertise one price, then sneak in "total fees" (whatever those are) in between the checkout flow and the payment processor page.
RGBCube 3y ago
In Turkey, you can cancel any subscription you have through the governments app called "e-Devlet" which stands for "e-Government". It is an awesome system, a service making it hell to unsubscribe? Just cancel it through e-Devlet and if they don't cancel your subscription, you can sue them. Though I think it only works for Turkey based companies, sadly.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  This seems like a great solution -- allow a centralized party to control the front end (and create an audit log), then transmit the intent to the service to act on. I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. But the ceding of front end control to services themselves doesn't work. We already learned that with email / unsubscribe.
  - RGBCube 3y ago
    > I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. Hard, because the government has authority, a random company does not. I'd still trust my government more than a random non profit company, if my trust decreases, I'd vote for different people to manage the country - which is not possible with companies.
    - tantalor 3y ago
      You could run it like the Fed, independent from govt but still official.
      - kelipso 3y ago
        Why, so they can be shady and funnel profits to private hands?
      - RGBCube 3y ago
        Ah, then that would be the best solution.
    - 3y ago
drewcoo 3y ago
A really wonderful way to "fight click to cancel" would be providing better content and a better experience and charging less. You know - all the things that would make someone want to stay. Instead, they use legal borderline-fraud to chase profits.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  Make it as difficult for them to cancel a series (scaled for net worth) as it is for a customer to cancel the account, as a lesson.
the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
I really appreciate that legislation here forces companies to accept cancellation by email. There are services that have the contact addresses as a directory and you can just fill out a form online and they have to honor your cancellation.
kevinmchugh 3y ago
Illinois says that any subscription must be cancelable in the same place it's created, so if I sign up for Hulu using my smart tv,I can cancel there as well. It's really good. People often complain about the proliferation of streaming services, but thanks to the law mentioned above, I'm able to subscribe and then immediately cancel. If I decide I want more time I can resubscribe later. I get to watch what I want with a minimum of recurring bills.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  This is one reason I prefer subscribing via Apple's store where possible--it's always a hassle-free cancellation and all my subscriptions are in one screen.
  - javajosh 3y ago
    This is also a reason to subscribe with paypal. (Interestingly Disney+ felt it needed to send me an email every day for 3 months saying "your subscription is about to be cancelled!" after I did this. But when you go into the D+ interface, the ONLY thing you can do is update your payment information. So I did what anyone would do: marked their email as spam and got on with my life. But I can't help but wonder how many fake subscriptions D+ is floating like this...)
  - throwaway287391 3y ago
    My favorite thing about Apple subscriptions is free trials. You can sign up for a trial and then immediately cancel it and still use your full trial period. No nags. No more need to make a calendar reminder "CANCEL X" on the day before (and inevitably ignore it when the day comes if you're me). It would be even better if they added a prompt on the free trial signup "Become a paid subscriber after free trial ends?" so you could just click "No" and not have to go through the few extra clicks to cancel (I sometimes have trouble finding the subscription list where you cancel tbh), but it's still infinitely better than signing up for a free trial with the subscription company directly.
    - Matheus28 3y ago
wdb 3y ago
I can understand why they don’t like it. But I think it’s a good idea to make cancelling just as easy as signing up. Want to make cancelling more difficult, well then you should make signing up same level difficult
- mysterydip 3y ago
  "In order to sign up, you must speak to a customer service representative on the phone after waiting on hold at least 15 minutes"
  - brewdad 3y ago
    You will then be transferred to a retention agent who will help you complete the signup process. Confirmation of signing up could take up to 5 business days.
atum47 3y ago
Netflix is such a crook. I had cancelled my subscription a while ago. They gave me the rest of the month to watch (since i already paid that month). Well, I had cancelled because I don't watch anymore. Guess what? Since it was a family plan, my father end up watching on his house, in another city. So Netflix renew the subscription. Fun right? I get a message everytime my card gets charged, that's why I noticed I was still being charged for Netflix. End up hoping in a chat with the support and they told me about this "feature" of automatic renewal. UPDATE https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36708881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36708881 - ReclameAqui is a Brazilian website where customers can file complaints about companies. Netflix seems to be doing that to a lot of customers...
- Spivak 3y ago
  Isn't that basically bait for a chargeback? No financial institution would ever call that an authorized transaction.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Do you know the details of what happened here? Unless you know otherwise, it sounds like your father probably ended up clicking the "renew subscription now" button when prompted, not that simply logging in triggered the charge. I'm ready to believe that the renewal prompt was heavily geared towards making it easy to renew, and Netflix should be required to make it equally easy to cancel, but unless you know he didn't click a button to confirm the charge (with dollar amount listed), I'd hesitate to label the re-onboarding process as crooked.
  - sitkack 3y ago
    No the onus is not on the customer to not step on the landmine.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      My point is that we don't know if it was a landmine or a very clearly labeled bit of C4 with a lever next to it labeled "explode". I've logged into a cancelled Netflix account before, and while they definitely want you to renew, there's a very clearly marked button that includes the renewal price. If OP's dad absent-mindedly clicked that button, that's a very different story than if simply logging in and navigating to a movie issued a new charge.
Luctct 3y ago
The issue is so simple. The companies claim that it would impose heavy costs on them. Well. So it either costs the companies or it costs the consumer. But the consumer is exercising their free choice while the companies are ignoring said choice and forcing them to pay for something they don't want. That's textbook extortion. Easy solution: impose crippling fines or maybe a little prison sentence here and there for extortion. Why not? That's what it is. Do it and watch how fast the mobsters, I mean, the companies will change their tune.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > Easy solution: impose crippling fines or maybe a little prison sentence here and there for extortion. Why not? That's what it is. How is it extortion? Who is being coerced and how?
  - blitz_skull 3y ago
    Pretty sure they directly stated it—the consumer is being coerced. Deceptive tactics to make it hard to stop paying for something you don't want is coercive and deceptive behavior.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Yes, but that isn't extortion. Making something overly difficult is different than threatening or using force.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        Ah, I see you've never been sent to a collections agency for charges you didn't make.
  - synetic 3y ago
    You are correct on the pedantic point of whether or not it is “extortion” under existing laws. Laws can be changed and definitions changed. Or use a different term. The essence of the point is clear. Why nitpick on whether or not “extortion” is the correct word?
rednerrus 3y ago
Doesn't this rule already exist in California?
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  Yep. Assembly Bill 390, passed in 2021.
graeme 3y ago
One click to cancel would actually be too easy. I once had subscribed to encylcopedia brittanica. They also sent email messages. I replied to one and said “please ubsubscribe me”. They cancelled my brittanica and refunded me! I wanted the emails to stop. Now to sign up I’d need to enter my payment info again; I just stayed unsubscribed. I will sometimes check how cancellation works by looking at the cancel area. Would not expect a single click to terminate my account. Easy cancelling is a great idea. “Click” to cancel sounds abrupt.
- _Parfait_ 3y ago
  ....You cannot be serious
  - graeme 3y ago
    The only stuff I’ve ever had trouble cancelling were newspaper subscriptions. Definitely support making that easier. I can’t read the article due to the paywall. Precisely how easy and instant is the cancellation process required to be under this proposal: a button that says cancel, you click it, and you are cancelled? I suspect that would surprise a lot of people and make them frustrated. Cancelling shouldn’t be easier to do accidentally than signup.
    - _Parfait_ 3y ago
      So i should be require to entire my payment information and verify an email to cancel a service? Are you mad? I click the red cancel button, it says "Are you sure" and boom I'm cancelled. That's how everyone else on the planet wants it.
      - graeme 3y ago
        I’ve never had to do that for a subscription service. Simple cancellation is a good idea. Banning complicated cancellation is a good idea. I’m just wary of too minutely regulation how cancellation happens. It is possible to make it too seamless.
blitz_skull 3y ago
Nothing makes me want this to pass more than Disney and Netflix fighting it. If those assholes are opposed to it, almost by definition I'm going to be for it.
- greyman 3y ago
  For customers it is quite good, but to be fair, Netflix cancellation process is very straightforward, at least in Europe. There weren't any tricks, they just said see you later and cancelled.
  - drdaeman 3y ago
    I'm in the US, and it looks straightforward here too. It only gets slightly tricky if it's billed indirectly (through a partnership with some other company, where the subscription is offered as a part of a package). So I'm not sure what the fuss is about.
    - medvezhenok 3y ago
      If it's straightforward to cancel, the rule should not be any work on their part (it's certainly no great engineering lift). We all know that once profitability/growth drops, all the companies will resort to dark patterns (over time) to keep the numbers looking good, unless prevented from doing that.
    - brewdad 3y ago
      I have a free Netflix sub through Verizon. I no longer use Verizon but my sub is still active until November. Netflix says I must go through Verizon to cancel but Verizon killed my account once I changed providers. I guess I’ll see what happens in November since I currently have no way to cancel.
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    Industry trade organizations with those companies as members are fighting the proposal. The particular companies in the headline might not care.
throw03172019 3y ago
DataDog Is probably doing the same.
tuxychandru 3y ago
Why is it still the norm in the US to allow companies to charge their customers whenever they please, without the customers having any control? In India, businesses are required to get a consent, at the time of subscription, to charge the customer on a recurring basis. This is called an e-mandate and requires multi-factor authentication to create. The card holder can cancel the mandate online, through their bank, without having to rely on the business doing the right thing. The business cannot charge the customer beyond that point, without obtaining a new mandate.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  When you sign up, you are agreeing to the contract ("I agree to the terms and conditions"). Those terms and conditions legally dictate what you are agreeing to and how you will be charged, and what conditions are necessary to break that contract. They aren't allowed to charge you whenever they please, without customer control, they have to abide by the contract. Unfortunately, most people don't read the contract, and companies put ridiculous terms in there that people happily agree to.
  - tuxychandru 3y ago
    This is what Netflix's Terms of Use says, "If a payment is not successfully settled, due to expiration, insufficient funds, or otherwise, and you do not cancel your account, we may suspend your access to the service until we have successfully charged a valid Payment Method.". A customer will be well within the bounds of the contract if they cancel their mandate through the bank, as long as they also don't expect to have continued access to Netflix. Even in the US, there is nothing stopping the customer from closing their credit card account, except that it is an unreasonably inconvenient for the customer. It is far simpler and IMO sensible to be able to revoke consent for specific purposes through my payment instrument. So why doesn't the banking system in the US provide this as an universal option to customers? After all, this is exactly what Apple facilitates albeit at a high cost.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Re-read that closely. You still owe them the money, they aren't absolving you of the debt. Netflix seems content not to pursue customers for it, but there is nothing legally stopping them from coming after you for the amount you agreed to pay until you formally cancel. Thats the rub. Access suspension != account cancellation. You can ask a US bank to stop future payments to a given merchant, but it doesn't actually absolve you of your contractual agreement to pay the merchant. Most internet based services have decided that it is bad business to pursue accounts where the payment was unsuccessful, but from a legal perspective, you are still on the hook. I'm not saying I agree with the way the US system handles this, but to say that "the norm in the US to allow companies to charge their customers whenever they please, without the customers having any control" is inaccurate since customers have agreed to the terms of the contract which define when the customer is charged and what control they have.
classified 3y ago
A proposal, seriously? Like, proposing to vampires they might hold off on sucking too much blood? This has to be a law, with penalties that really hurt for a change.
gwbas1c 3y ago
Why doesn't my credit card statement list subscriptions separately? How come I can't cancel through my credit card? It's great that the FTC is cracking down on this; but it seems like the credit card companies also should have some involvement too in making it easy to see what subscriptions you have, and making it easy to cancel subscriptions in a single location.
- CuriouslyC 3y ago
  Why would a company that gets a cut of whatever you buy with its service want to make it easy for you to stop buying things?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - tuxychandru 3y ago
    Apple gets a cut of the payments made through them and yet they provide this option to the consumers. The FTC or the govt can force (?. I'm not a US resident and know nothing of US regulatory bodies' powers) card networks and banks to make this possible. This is exactly how things work in India, as I mentioned in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36709947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36709947.
- mrweasel 3y ago
  MasterCard have made a deal with a Danish company that provides you with a way of cancelling subscriptions, normally via your bank[1]. The credit cards companies seems to be onboard. https://fintechmagazine.com/articles/mastercard-enters-subscription-management-space-with-subaio https://fintechmagazine.com/articles/mastercard-enters-subsc...
- standardUser 3y ago
  "but it seems like the credit card companies also should have some involvement..." If we want that, we need laws to make it happen. It seems a lot of people want companies to act in certain ways out of the goodness of their heart, when what we need are good laws that support consumers. Back before credit card reform under Obama, credit card companies were among the most aggressive actors when it came to late charges and fees and just generally ruining people's lives. They still would be, except now there is a law.
bogwog 3y ago
When was the last time US consumers got any kind of win? Even though this seems like an obvious proposal, I find it hard to not expect the FTC to get their asses kicked in court.
didsomeonesay 3y ago
Subscription providers will be as shameless as allowed by law. Or worse. I try to cancel subscriptions immidiately after signing up when i only want the service for a limited time. For an Italian newspaper's online subscription, after contacting them for cancellation via web form, my family was informed: you have to call a number and that cancellations will only be accepted 1 day before the end of the subscription. Let me re-state that: you have to remember, one year after signing up, to call that number within a 24 hour window (maybe less, depending on their office hours), reach somebody, and hope for their honesty in confirming the cancellation, because your have no proof that you did so. Or you are locked in for another year. Luckily, I had used PayPal as subscription payment method, wich has a separate web interface for cancellation. And also remembered the call after one year, for good measure. But what a disrespect for consumers! Quite surprised this was apparently legal in Italy (we don't live there, it was an educational subscription).
- rogual 3y ago
  Adobe do that "cancellation window" trick too. I'd never seen it anywhere else, though; I thought they were uniquely scummy.
  - wombat-man 3y ago
    Youtube tv has it, but it's 3 days iirc, and you can still click a button to cancel. Still annoying.
  - jraby3 3y ago
    My waste removal company has it and it’s a 5 year contract. You have a window of 90-120 days before the 5 year contract renews for another 5 years. John’s refuse in CT
    - yurishimo 3y ago
      Seems like a good candidate for some old fashioned bulk complaining. Hit up the BBB, Yelp, etc. It seems stupid to us, but most companies actually care about those silly review sites even though none of them are binding in any way. The BBB especially. You could also remind them via an online contact form once a day that you think this policy is garbage...
AlbertCory 3y ago
If some service is worried that people will cancel in error, they can always send an email or several saying, "Did you cancel in error? Click <here> to reinstate!" This is your regular reminder to use a temporary credit card to subscribe to things. If they make it too difficult to cancel the regular way, you can cancel the credit card (and of course, don't use the subscription anymore). If you're really worried about the impact of that on your credit rating (a non-issue, by the way), you can send a registered letter to the company canceling, and then monitor your credit report. If that does show up (which it won't), you have proof that you canceled the service. But really, credit cards become invalid all the time, for all sorts of innocent reasons.
yieldcrv 3y ago
btw Netflix has never booted me off the account I share with an owner 3,000 miles away I hadnt even logged in for a month after the pogrom
libraryatnight 3y ago
Must mean it's good for consumers.
sveme 3y ago
Germany enforced this a couple of years ago: if you can contract with someone electronically, cancelling this needs to be as simple as agreeing to that contract. Annoyingly, a lot of companies try to work around this - I tried to cancel a newspaper subscription a while back and they didn't offer that. So I simply wrote a quick email. Then they requested to call me to discuss this and I had to answer via email quoting that relevant law. Then they accepted it. Annoying. Cancelling Wow, Amazon Prime, Audible or Netflix is really just a mouse click (with Amazon Prime and Audible using some dark patterns to convince you to stay).
- neop1x 3y ago
  A smilar law should be implemented at EU level. Our DSL provider in Czechia makes it very difficult to cancel a service. You can easily sign up online. But they say you have to call somewhere no earlier than two months and no later than one month prior to expiration which renews yearly. Then they mail you a code, which you must provide to them by calling them again. This is an excellent illustration of how badly everything would be (for example food standards or local laws) if we weren't a part of the EU. Yet some stupid people (mostly old) are complaining about the EU all the time that it is a Brussels' dictate. But the EU creates at least some order here!
bityard 3y ago
> The Internet & Television Association, which counts Disney, Paramount, and Warner Bros. Discovery as members, said in its public comment that the proposed reg is so vague, it would lead marketers to be excessive in their disclosures, leaving consumers "inundated" and "confused." I have a rule and that is, anytime somebody pushes back on something with the rationale, "doing X will confuse our users," it is ALWAYS because they have some ulterior motive that has nothing to do with the users at all. (And furthermore shows how little they think of their users's general intelligence.)
- ryandrake 3y ago
  The hilarious part is that these companies have no problem whatsoever with their customer contracts and "Terms Of Use" documents that are 75 pages of 6 point font text full of one-sided terms, that they use to beat/rob their customers. But when they simply are asked to disclose their bad behavior, it's "Oh, no! We can't show our users a complex document! They'll be inundated!!!" They're not fooling anyone.
deleted 3y ago
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rogual 3y ago
Strange to see Netflix on the list, because here in the UK it's extremely easy to cancel. You just click once and it's done, and you still get to watch for the rest of the month. I'm sure it can't be because of UK law, because we have plenty of other companies here who make cancellations awkward.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Same, here in California I just tried it. Account > (big button at top) Cancel Membership > Finish Cancellation. That's about as perfect as I'd want it. I don't want a cancel button on my main screen and I do want a confirm field when I make destructive actions. Finish Cancellation button is highlighted in Blue and obvious default. Below that is a "downgrade plan" option. There is also a note above Finish Cancellation that says "If you resubscribe within 10 months, your profile and watched shows will remain" or something like that.
  - henryfjordan 3y ago
    California has a law that says if you can sign up online, you must cancel online. A lot of sites geo-restrict online cancellation to certain places where it is required by law.
  - spatley 3y ago
    The very fact that they have different cancel paths in different locales says that they are doing the one that is most advantageous to netflix according to the laws of that locale.
  - medvezhenok 3y ago
    Yes, California has already passed a law to this effect - this is why online cancellation is easy if you're located there. https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/companies-must-let-customers-cancel-subscriptions-online-california-law-says/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/companies-mu...
remyp 3y ago
I have a small SaaS business and do the vast majority of development myself. I made it just as easy to cancel as it is to sign up, just a couple clicks. Not that anybody does: churn is way below every benchmark and those who cancel for a time frequently come back. Being customer-friendly pays dividends, folks. Not sure why big companies don't get that. Maybe it's because the only stakeholders I have to answer to are myself, my cofounder, and our customers.
_8j50 3y ago
privacy.com is the best "click to cancel" option.
andrei_says_ 3y ago
For me the headline here is that the FTC is acting in the public’s interests.
say_it_as_it_is 3y ago
>Sirius XM wrote in its comments that one proposed requirement — that companies maintain records of phone calls with customers — would cost the company "several million" dollars a year to comply with Can companies be held accountable for lying like this, on record? They're already tracking.
gxs 3y ago
How in the world could you in good consciousness argue against this? It’s a simple thing that shouldn’t even have to be debated. Corporations just shouldn’t have the power to even have a say in this. Put up for vote or whatever the fuck. I’m busy working and unfortunately I can’t hire an army of lawyers to fight this full time in my place. I’m just dumbfounded that we can’t even get little wins.
tqwhite 3y ago
It sounds like we all should 'lose' our credit cards once a year. It's a hassle to give the new number to the companies we want to keep but probably worth it for the ones we don't.
- nojvek 3y ago
  Then you get all sorts of late payment charges and charges are then sent to debt collection agencies, which then dent your credit score. T-mobile charged me $7 for being 1d late on payment because my credit card expired. No late payment notice. Just a charge on next bill. Verizon is even worse. They have 30 day free trial from the time you sign, not when the equipment is delivered. So if they misdeliver to wrong address, you're on hook for $280 even if you don't have the equipment. US policies and politicians in general are very corporate friendly.
tqwhite 3y ago
Also, WTF?, this article is behind a paywall. Who puts stuff like that on Hacker News? Very irritating.
esskay 3y ago
Not really surprising when its become clear streaming isnt the money maker they all thought it would be. With the exception of Netflix they've all lost billions with zero sign of that changing.
beebmam 3y ago
Just want to say that Paramount Plus is pretty straightforward on how to cancel your subscription. Also a great place if you like Star Trek!
Flatcircle 3y ago
Netflix is the villain
dontrustme 3y ago
It's the fact that unsubscribing to several services on a mobile phone is a nearly impossible task that is infuriating to me. Most streaming apps immediately divert you to their app (if it's installed) if you search for them on the web. These same apps will also tell you to "go to the web to manage your subscription". This forces the user to first delete the app and cross their fingers that the website doesn't just bounce them back over the app store. Also, why has safari's mobile "request desktop site" not worked for me in over 5 years? It never brings a desktop site anymore... so annoying. Apple tried to fix this by diverting any in-app subscriptions thru their app store, but because they take such a substantial cut of the sub revenue, companies would rather redirect users to the web to buy a sub and not provide the capability within the app. Despite Apple's efforts here, it has completely backfired and made the end user experience a deplorable state of affairs.
- belthesar 3y ago
  > Also, why has safari's mobile "request desktop site" not worked for me in over 5 years? It never brings a desktop site anymore... so annoying. Likely because the site's fingerprinting to determine if you are on a mobile device uses more heuristics than the "Request Desktop Site" functionality leverages. This, IIRC, is just a user agent hack, but browsers send a _lot_ more data about your machine than just a user agent.
- wryanzimmerman 3y ago
  > Also, why has safari's mobile "request desktop site" not worked for me in over 5 years? In large part because it’s really bad practice to have separate desktop and mobile sites, it’s generally better to just have one responsive site. However, some badly designed sides achieve “responsiveness” by hiding functionally, which is bad because phones have no way to “zoom out” (emulate a larger screen size) to get the buttons to show up.
EchoReflection 3y ago
https://archive.vn/M2Qe1 https://archive.vn/M2Qe1
- catboybotnet 3y ago
  Many thanks. 12ft.io is disabled for BI, unfortunately.
JohnFen 3y ago
Of course they are. If it's easier for people to cancel services when they want, they are more likely to do so.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
phendrenad2 3y ago
Clickbait/ragebait headline. These companies are voicing serious concerns. As usual, those who don't click the archive.is link will be clueless and uninformed.
dahwolf 3y ago
In the Netherlands, canceling Netflix is actually too easy. It's a single click and then "Bye!" How about begging me to stay? 3 confirmations? An input box where I can vent? A discount to stay? Nothing. It sucks, I want proper closure.
bell-cot 3y ago
Daydream: Companies with customer-hostile subscriptions policies are all required to use the IRS's new "Advanced Corporate Tax Management" web site. Where the ever-shifting dark patterns of UI and ever-resetting defaults (especially the "voluntary extra contribution to the US Treasury") make their lives difficult. And that IRS site's webmasters collect a percentage on those "extra contributions", and appeals can only be made in person on the ISS, and ...
- ilyt 3y ago
  That's just making few shitty corporate jobs to click thru that while the shareholders are entirely unaffected.
xony 3y ago
we dont like subscription model
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emeril 3y ago
if you're really concerned about this stuff you can use citibank virtual credit cards (a free feature) to just disable the card if you can't easily/properly cancel the service
znxster 3y ago
If its one click to subscribe .. it should be one click to cancel.
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703 points by isaacfrond 3y ago

The first thing you'll see on this page is a popup panel asking you to subscribe, without "nope" button (at least I couldn't find it).

VictoriousMan 3y ago

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SudokuMaster4u 3y ago

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SudokuMaster4u 3y ago

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corden_kimmel1 3y ago

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corden_kimmel1 3y ago

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qaz_plm 3y ago

https://archive.is/M2Qe1 https://archive.is/M2Qe1

WeylandYutani 3y ago

I have switched to prepaid gift cards instead of giving apps the right to take money from my bank account. No payment information linked to Google- got burned by auto renewal once and never again.

jkaplowitz 3y ago
Not paying a debt you legitimately owe doesn’t eliminate the legitimacy of the debt. Most app owners probably won’t take any further action against you because it’s not usually worth the time and money (at least in the US), but they’re entitled to. If they sell your debt to a debt collector, have fun with that. (Tangent: there is usually a certain number of years of inaction after which they can’t go after you for the debt, unless you again acknowledge the debt. The details and the ways to reset that clock vary by jurisdiction.)
- strangetortoise 3y ago
  Non-USA here (which might affect things): Isn't the point of paying with e.g. a Netflix gift card that they auto-cancel/pause your subscription to Netflix after the gift card runs out of funds? How would that incur a debt?
  - glimshe 3y ago
    The subscription is a recurrent commitment that you sign up for through a contract. They cancel it automatically because they don't want to bother collecting the money - it's expensive to do so and will lead to permanent churn. But they can; it's your problem to fix the payment method to cover your monthly/yearly commitment. All they have to do is to keep the service available and put something in the contract to that effect. It's similar with power/water bills. They can't/won't cut utilities, a form of subscription with a fixed cost in addition to the usage cost, right away (there is a process for that), but you owe the money all the way until they are cut.
    - Sharlin 3y ago
      Does redeeming a service’s own gift card really tie the user to a perpetual rather than fixed-term agreement?
      - teeray 3y ago
        In the US, yes. If the letter of the contract says that you are responsible for a monthly payment, how that debt is settled every month does not change the terms of the contract. A gift card just allows you to settle the debt with a mutual debt owed.

glimshe 3y ago

I prefer that the government doesn't go too heavy handed with the rule and try to solve all problems with requirements such as maintaining detailed phone records. We don't want huge costs of compliance making it harder for small players to enter the market. I think the rule of "sign up online, cancel online using a clearly visible option in the account settings", plus the legalese to cover corner cases, would be a huge improvement. Making it difficult to cancel a subscription is the oldest trick on the book and is tantamount to fraud.

xg15 3y ago
How many interstitials would you allow after the clearly visible option in the account settings?
- ericmay 3y ago
  The same amount it takes to sign up
  - muro 3y ago
    You might need name, address etc as part of the sign up, but if they made me enter all of that againz it would be infuriating.
    - ziftface 3y ago
      I agree, that would be super annoying, but at the same time the law would still be mostly working this case, since you still don't need to eg fax a form or have to get on a long phone call. I think "the effort you need to sign up" is a reasonable ceiling, and while it's unfortunate if a company decides to be petty and make you enter your address again, that same company would probably do more if they were given the legal right to do so.
    - dspillett 3y ago
      That isn't signing up, that is filling out a profile and/or stating/proving who you are (for payment processing & fraud prevention purposes). While it is often closely linked to “signing up” it is not actually a direct part of it. Even if you consider it all to be part of the sign-up, it could be a single form so the match of “as many forms to cancel as to sign-up” still works: this one form for signing up, the “are you sure, this is why you might prefer not to” page being its opposite at the other end.

throwaway2990 3y ago

This is why I don’t want alternative payment options on iOS. It’s 1 click cancel on subscriptions. It’s enforced and they have no say or cannot make it difficult for me to cancel.

littlecranky67 3y ago
The UX is great, but not worth paying 30% more.
- mr_mitm 3y ago
  43% more. The dev gets 70% of the value on the price tag, so that value is 1/0.7=1.428 of what the dev gets.
- throwaway2990 3y ago
  Singapore a year of Disney plus is $120 from Disney. It’s $120 on iOS. HBO go is same price. Prime video is same price. The only one I can’t pay for is Netflix. So your point is moot.
  - batch12 3y ago
    > So you point is mute. Point is moot
    - throwaway2990 3y ago
      Didn’t even notice I wrote mute haha thanks.
      - frankfrankfrank 3y ago
        [dead]
  - littlecranky67 3y ago
    You are right, and of course there is not always a surcharge. I myself am a big fan of easy it is to cancel when using Apple Subscriptions. However, there are tons of online services that WILL charge your a significantly higher subscription fee, when using Apple Pay (Tinder is a prominent one).

littlecranky67 3y ago

This legal click-to-cancel requirements are already implemented in Germany.

ivolimmen 3y ago

One of the great perks of living in the Netherlands. We already have this. If you can sign up in 1 minute using the web you must also be able to cancel in one minute using the web (For the Dutch: Wet van Dam). This rule is only for consumers not for businesses. Consumers are very well protected here.

terinjokes 3y ago
I keep running into Dutch e-commerce sites that advertise prices without fees and VAT, and I haven't figured out who I'm supposed to complain to. Just yesterday, the first indication the prices weren't accurate is when I saw the real total in iDEAL.
- bobviolier 3y ago
  I am from the Netherlands, and I never see prices without VAT on websites. What is an example? Edit: not saying your lying, just thinking it might be geo related sometimes?
  - terinjokes 3y ago
    I was buying tickets for an upcoming music concert here in Amsterdam. The map showing prices in different sections was one price, but they wanted €74 extra in "total fees", and an additional €14 in VAT.
    - akvadrako 3y ago
      That VAT only covers the extra fees; it's 21%.
      - terinjokes 3y ago
        I only noticed that after writing the comment. Still feels wrong to advertise one price, then sneak in "total fees" (whatever those are) in between the checkout flow and the payment processor page.

RGBCube 3y ago

In Turkey, you can cancel any subscription you have through the governments app called "e-Devlet" which stands for "e-Government". It is an awesome system, a service making it hell to unsubscribe? Just cancel it through e-Devlet and if they don't cancel your subscription, you can sue them. Though I think it only works for Turkey based companies, sadly.

ethbr0 3y ago
This seems like a great solution -- allow a centralized party to control the front end (and create an audit log), then transmit the intent to the service to act on. I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. But the ceding of front end control to services themselves doesn't work. We already learned that with email / unsubscribe.
- RGBCube 3y ago
  > I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. Hard, because the government has authority, a random company does not. I'd still trust my government more than a random non profit company, if my trust decreases, I'd vote for different people to manage the country - which is not possible with companies.
  - tantalor 3y ago
    You could run it like the Fed, independent from govt but still official.
    - kelipso 3y ago
      Why, so they can be shady and funnel profits to private hands?
    - RGBCube 3y ago
      Ah, then that would be the best solution.
  - 3y ago

drewcoo 3y ago

A really wonderful way to "fight click to cancel" would be providing better content and a better experience and charging less. You know - all the things that would make someone want to stay. Instead, they use legal borderline-fraud to chase profits.

plagiarist 3y ago
Make it as difficult for them to cancel a series (scaled for net worth) as it is for a customer to cancel the account, as a lesson.

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago

I really appreciate that legislation here forces companies to accept cancellation by email. There are services that have the contact addresses as a directory and you can just fill out a form online and they have to honor your cancellation.

kevinmchugh 3y ago

Illinois says that any subscription must be cancelable in the same place it's created, so if I sign up for Hulu using my smart tv,I can cancel there as well. It's really good. People often complain about the proliferation of streaming services, but thanks to the law mentioned above, I'm able to subscribe and then immediately cancel. If I decide I want more time I can resubscribe later. I get to watch what I want with a minimum of recurring bills.

nielsbot 3y ago
This is one reason I prefer subscribing via Apple's store where possible--it's always a hassle-free cancellation and all my subscriptions are in one screen.
- javajosh 3y ago
  This is also a reason to subscribe with paypal. (Interestingly Disney+ felt it needed to send me an email every day for 3 months saying "your subscription is about to be cancelled!" after I did this. But when you go into the D+ interface, the ONLY thing you can do is update your payment information. So I did what anyone would do: marked their email as spam and got on with my life. But I can't help but wonder how many fake subscriptions D+ is floating like this...)
- throwaway287391 3y ago
  My favorite thing about Apple subscriptions is free trials. You can sign up for a trial and then immediately cancel it and still use your full trial period. No nags. No more need to make a calendar reminder "CANCEL X" on the day before (and inevitably ignore it when the day comes if you're me). It would be even better if they added a prompt on the free trial signup "Become a paid subscriber after free trial ends?" so you could just click "No" and not have to go through the few extra clicks to cancel (I sometimes have trouble finding the subscription list where you cancel tbh), but it's still infinitely better than signing up for a free trial with the subscription company directly.
  - Matheus28 3y ago

wdb 3y ago

I can understand why they don’t like it. But I think it’s a good idea to make cancelling just as easy as signing up. Want to make cancelling more difficult, well then you should make signing up same level difficult

mysterydip 3y ago
"In order to sign up, you must speak to a customer service representative on the phone after waiting on hold at least 15 minutes"
- brewdad 3y ago
  You will then be transferred to a retention agent who will help you complete the signup process. Confirmation of signing up could take up to 5 business days.

atum47 3y ago

Netflix is such a crook. I had cancelled my subscription a while ago. They gave me the rest of the month to watch (since i already paid that month). Well, I had cancelled because I don't watch anymore. Guess what? Since it was a family plan, my father end up watching on his house, in another city. So Netflix renew the subscription. Fun right? I get a message everytime my card gets charged, that's why I noticed I was still being charged for Netflix. End up hoping in a chat with the support and they told me about this "feature" of automatic renewal. UPDATE https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36708881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36708881 - ReclameAqui is a Brazilian website where customers can file complaints about companies. Netflix seems to be doing that to a lot of customers...

Spivak 3y ago
Isn't that basically bait for a chargeback? No financial institution would ever call that an authorized transaction.
lolinder 3y ago
Do you know the details of what happened here? Unless you know otherwise, it sounds like your father probably ended up clicking the "renew subscription now" button when prompted, not that simply logging in triggered the charge. I'm ready to believe that the renewal prompt was heavily geared towards making it easy to renew, and Netflix should be required to make it equally easy to cancel, but unless you know he didn't click a button to confirm the charge (with dollar amount listed), I'd hesitate to label the re-onboarding process as crooked.
- sitkack 3y ago
  No the onus is not on the customer to not step on the landmine.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    My point is that we don't know if it was a landmine or a very clearly labeled bit of C4 with a lever next to it labeled "explode". I've logged into a cancelled Netflix account before, and while they definitely want you to renew, there's a very clearly marked button that includes the renewal price. If OP's dad absent-mindedly clicked that button, that's a very different story than if simply logging in and navigating to a movie issued a new charge.

Luctct 3y ago

The issue is so simple. The companies claim that it would impose heavy costs on them. Well. So it either costs the companies or it costs the consumer. But the consumer is exercising their free choice while the companies are ignoring said choice and forcing them to pay for something they don't want. That's textbook extortion. Easy solution: impose crippling fines or maybe a little prison sentence here and there for extortion. Why not? That's what it is. Do it and watch how fast the mobsters, I mean, the companies will change their tune.

andsoitis 3y ago
> Easy solution: impose crippling fines or maybe a little prison sentence here and there for extortion. Why not? That's what it is. How is it extortion? Who is being coerced and how?
- blitz_skull 3y ago
  Pretty sure they directly stated it—the consumer is being coerced. Deceptive tactics to make it hard to stop paying for something you don't want is coercive and deceptive behavior.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Yes, but that isn't extortion. Making something overly difficult is different than threatening or using force.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Ah, I see you've never been sent to a collections agency for charges you didn't make.
- synetic 3y ago
  You are correct on the pedantic point of whether or not it is “extortion” under existing laws. Laws can be changed and definitions changed. Or use a different term. The essence of the point is clear. Why nitpick on whether or not “extortion” is the correct word?

rednerrus 3y ago

Doesn't this rule already exist in California?

OkayPhysicist 3y ago
Yep. Assembly Bill 390, passed in 2021.

graeme 3y ago

One click to cancel would actually be too easy. I once had subscribed to encylcopedia brittanica. They also sent email messages. I replied to one and said “please ubsubscribe me”. They cancelled my brittanica and refunded me! I wanted the emails to stop. Now to sign up I’d need to enter my payment info again; I just stayed unsubscribed. I will sometimes check how cancellation works by looking at the cancel area. Would not expect a single click to terminate my account. Easy cancelling is a great idea. “Click” to cancel sounds abrupt.

_Parfait_ 3y ago
....You cannot be serious
- graeme 3y ago
  The only stuff I’ve ever had trouble cancelling were newspaper subscriptions. Definitely support making that easier. I can’t read the article due to the paywall. Precisely how easy and instant is the cancellation process required to be under this proposal: a button that says cancel, you click it, and you are cancelled? I suspect that would surprise a lot of people and make them frustrated. Cancelling shouldn’t be easier to do accidentally than signup.
  - _Parfait_ 3y ago
    So i should be require to entire my payment information and verify an email to cancel a service? Are you mad? I click the red cancel button, it says "Are you sure" and boom I'm cancelled. That's how everyone else on the planet wants it.
    - graeme 3y ago
      I’ve never had to do that for a subscription service. Simple cancellation is a good idea. Banning complicated cancellation is a good idea. I’m just wary of too minutely regulation how cancellation happens. It is possible to make it too seamless.

blitz_skull 3y ago

Nothing makes me want this to pass more than Disney and Netflix fighting it. If those assholes are opposed to it, almost by definition I'm going to be for it.

greyman 3y ago
For customers it is quite good, but to be fair, Netflix cancellation process is very straightforward, at least in Europe. There weren't any tricks, they just said see you later and cancelled.
- drdaeman 3y ago
  I'm in the US, and it looks straightforward here too. It only gets slightly tricky if it's billed indirectly (through a partnership with some other company, where the subscription is offered as a part of a package). So I'm not sure what the fuss is about.
  - medvezhenok 3y ago
    If it's straightforward to cancel, the rule should not be any work on their part (it's certainly no great engineering lift). We all know that once profitability/growth drops, all the companies will resort to dark patterns (over time) to keep the numbers looking good, unless prevented from doing that.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    I have a free Netflix sub through Verizon. I no longer use Verizon but my sub is still active until November. Netflix says I must go through Verizon to cancel but Verizon killed my account once I changed providers. I guess I’ll see what happens in November since I currently have no way to cancel.
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  Industry trade organizations with those companies as members are fighting the proposal. The particular companies in the headline might not care.

throw03172019 3y ago

DataDog Is probably doing the same.

tuxychandru 3y ago

Why is it still the norm in the US to allow companies to charge their customers whenever they please, without the customers having any control? In India, businesses are required to get a consent, at the time of subscription, to charge the customer on a recurring basis. This is called an e-mandate and requires multi-factor authentication to create. The card holder can cancel the mandate online, through their bank, without having to rely on the business doing the right thing. The business cannot charge the customer beyond that point, without obtaining a new mandate.

dghlsakjg 3y ago
When you sign up, you are agreeing to the contract ("I agree to the terms and conditions"). Those terms and conditions legally dictate what you are agreeing to and how you will be charged, and what conditions are necessary to break that contract. They aren't allowed to charge you whenever they please, without customer control, they have to abide by the contract. Unfortunately, most people don't read the contract, and companies put ridiculous terms in there that people happily agree to.
- tuxychandru 3y ago
  This is what Netflix's Terms of Use says, "If a payment is not successfully settled, due to expiration, insufficient funds, or otherwise, and you do not cancel your account, we may suspend your access to the service until we have successfully charged a valid Payment Method.". A customer will be well within the bounds of the contract if they cancel their mandate through the bank, as long as they also don't expect to have continued access to Netflix. Even in the US, there is nothing stopping the customer from closing their credit card account, except that it is an unreasonably inconvenient for the customer. It is far simpler and IMO sensible to be able to revoke consent for specific purposes through my payment instrument. So why doesn't the banking system in the US provide this as an universal option to customers? After all, this is exactly what Apple facilitates albeit at a high cost.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Re-read that closely. You still owe them the money, they aren't absolving you of the debt. Netflix seems content not to pursue customers for it, but there is nothing legally stopping them from coming after you for the amount you agreed to pay until you formally cancel. Thats the rub. Access suspension != account cancellation. You can ask a US bank to stop future payments to a given merchant, but it doesn't actually absolve you of your contractual agreement to pay the merchant. Most internet based services have decided that it is bad business to pursue accounts where the payment was unsuccessful, but from a legal perspective, you are still on the hook. I'm not saying I agree with the way the US system handles this, but to say that "the norm in the US to allow companies to charge their customers whenever they please, without the customers having any control" is inaccurate since customers have agreed to the terms of the contract which define when the customer is charged and what control they have.

classified 3y ago

A proposal, seriously? Like, proposing to vampires they might hold off on sucking too much blood? This has to be a law, with penalties that really hurt for a change.

gwbas1c 3y ago

Why doesn't my credit card statement list subscriptions separately? How come I can't cancel through my credit card? It's great that the FTC is cracking down on this; but it seems like the credit card companies also should have some involvement too in making it easy to see what subscriptions you have, and making it easy to cancel subscriptions in a single location.

CuriouslyC 3y ago
Why would a company that gets a cut of whatever you buy with its service want to make it easy for you to stop buying things?
- deleted 3y ago
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- tuxychandru 3y ago
  Apple gets a cut of the payments made through them and yet they provide this option to the consumers. The FTC or the govt can force (?. I'm not a US resident and know nothing of US regulatory bodies' powers) card networks and banks to make this possible. This is exactly how things work in India, as I mentioned in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36709947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36709947.
mrweasel 3y ago
MasterCard have made a deal with a Danish company that provides you with a way of cancelling subscriptions, normally via your bank[1]. The credit cards companies seems to be onboard. https://fintechmagazine.com/articles/mastercard-enters-subscription-management-space-with-subaio https://fintechmagazine.com/articles/mastercard-enters-subsc...
standardUser 3y ago
"but it seems like the credit card companies also should have some involvement..." If we want that, we need laws to make it happen. It seems a lot of people want companies to act in certain ways out of the goodness of their heart, when what we need are good laws that support consumers. Back before credit card reform under Obama, credit card companies were among the most aggressive actors when it came to late charges and fees and just generally ruining people's lives. They still would be, except now there is a law.

bogwog 3y ago

When was the last time US consumers got any kind of win? Even though this seems like an obvious proposal, I find it hard to not expect the FTC to get their asses kicked in court.

didsomeonesay 3y ago

Subscription providers will be as shameless as allowed by law. Or worse. I try to cancel subscriptions immidiately after signing up when i only want the service for a limited time. For an Italian newspaper's online subscription, after contacting them for cancellation via web form, my family was informed: you have to call a number and that cancellations will only be accepted 1 day before the end of the subscription. Let me re-state that: you have to remember, one year after signing up, to call that number within a 24 hour window (maybe less, depending on their office hours), reach somebody, and hope for their honesty in confirming the cancellation, because your have no proof that you did so. Or you are locked in for another year. Luckily, I had used PayPal as subscription payment method, wich has a separate web interface for cancellation. And also remembered the call after one year, for good measure. But what a disrespect for consumers! Quite surprised this was apparently legal in Italy (we don't live there, it was an educational subscription).

rogual 3y ago
Adobe do that "cancellation window" trick too. I'd never seen it anywhere else, though; I thought they were uniquely scummy.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  Youtube tv has it, but it's 3 days iirc, and you can still click a button to cancel. Still annoying.
- jraby3 3y ago
  My waste removal company has it and it’s a 5 year contract. You have a window of 90-120 days before the 5 year contract renews for another 5 years. John’s refuse in CT
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    Seems like a good candidate for some old fashioned bulk complaining. Hit up the BBB, Yelp, etc. It seems stupid to us, but most companies actually care about those silly review sites even though none of them are binding in any way. The BBB especially. You could also remind them via an online contact form once a day that you think this policy is garbage...

AlbertCory 3y ago

If some service is worried that people will cancel in error, they can always send an email or several saying, "Did you cancel in error? Click <here> to reinstate!" This is your regular reminder to use a temporary credit card to subscribe to things. If they make it too difficult to cancel the regular way, you can cancel the credit card (and of course, don't use the subscription anymore). If you're really worried about the impact of that on your credit rating (a non-issue, by the way), you can send a registered letter to the company canceling, and then monitor your credit report. If that does show up (which it won't), you have proof that you canceled the service. But really, credit cards become invalid all the time, for all sorts of innocent reasons.

yieldcrv 3y ago

btw Netflix has never booted me off the account I share with an owner 3,000 miles away I hadnt even logged in for a month after the pogrom

libraryatnight 3y ago

Must mean it's good for consumers.

sveme 3y ago

Germany enforced this a couple of years ago: if you can contract with someone electronically, cancelling this needs to be as simple as agreeing to that contract. Annoyingly, a lot of companies try to work around this - I tried to cancel a newspaper subscription a while back and they didn't offer that. So I simply wrote a quick email. Then they requested to call me to discuss this and I had to answer via email quoting that relevant law. Then they accepted it. Annoying. Cancelling Wow, Amazon Prime, Audible or Netflix is really just a mouse click (with Amazon Prime and Audible using some dark patterns to convince you to stay).

neop1x 3y ago
A smilar law should be implemented at EU level. Our DSL provider in Czechia makes it very difficult to cancel a service. You can easily sign up online. But they say you have to call somewhere no earlier than two months and no later than one month prior to expiration which renews yearly. Then they mail you a code, which you must provide to them by calling them again. This is an excellent illustration of how badly everything would be (for example food standards or local laws) if we weren't a part of the EU. Yet some stupid people (mostly old) are complaining about the EU all the time that it is a Brussels' dictate. But the EU creates at least some order here!

bityard 3y ago

> The Internet & Television Association, which counts Disney, Paramount, and Warner Bros. Discovery as members, said in its public comment that the proposed reg is so vague, it would lead marketers to be excessive in their disclosures, leaving consumers "inundated" and "confused." I have a rule and that is, anytime somebody pushes back on something with the rationale, "doing X will confuse our users," it is ALWAYS because they have some ulterior motive that has nothing to do with the users at all. (And furthermore shows how little they think of their users's general intelligence.)

ryandrake 3y ago
The hilarious part is that these companies have no problem whatsoever with their customer contracts and "Terms Of Use" documents that are 75 pages of 6 point font text full of one-sided terms, that they use to beat/rob their customers. But when they simply are asked to disclose their bad behavior, it's "Oh, no! We can't show our users a complex document! They'll be inundated!!!" They're not fooling anyone.

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rogual 3y ago

Strange to see Netflix on the list, because here in the UK it's extremely easy to cancel. You just click once and it's done, and you still get to watch for the rest of the month. I'm sure it can't be because of UK law, because we have plenty of other companies here who make cancellations awkward.

renewiltord 3y ago
Same, here in California I just tried it. Account > (big button at top) Cancel Membership > Finish Cancellation. That's about as perfect as I'd want it. I don't want a cancel button on my main screen and I do want a confirm field when I make destructive actions. Finish Cancellation button is highlighted in Blue and obvious default. Below that is a "downgrade plan" option. There is also a note above Finish Cancellation that says "If you resubscribe within 10 months, your profile and watched shows will remain" or something like that.
- henryfjordan 3y ago
  California has a law that says if you can sign up online, you must cancel online. A lot of sites geo-restrict online cancellation to certain places where it is required by law.
- spatley 3y ago
  The very fact that they have different cancel paths in different locales says that they are doing the one that is most advantageous to netflix according to the laws of that locale.
- medvezhenok 3y ago
  Yes, California has already passed a law to this effect - this is why online cancellation is easy if you're located there. https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/companies-must-let-customers-cancel-subscriptions-online-california-law-says/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/companies-mu...

remyp 3y ago

I have a small SaaS business and do the vast majority of development myself. I made it just as easy to cancel as it is to sign up, just a couple clicks. Not that anybody does: churn is way below every benchmark and those who cancel for a time frequently come back. Being customer-friendly pays dividends, folks. Not sure why big companies don't get that. Maybe it's because the only stakeholders I have to answer to are myself, my cofounder, and our customers.

_8j50 3y ago

privacy.com is the best "click to cancel" option.

andrei_says_ 3y ago

For me the headline here is that the FTC is acting in the public’s interests.

say_it_as_it_is 3y ago

>Sirius XM wrote in its comments that one proposed requirement — that companies maintain records of phone calls with customers — would cost the company "several million" dollars a year to comply with Can companies be held accountable for lying like this, on record? They're already tracking.

gxs 3y ago

How in the world could you in good consciousness argue against this? It’s a simple thing that shouldn’t even have to be debated. Corporations just shouldn’t have the power to even have a say in this. Put up for vote or whatever the fuck. I’m busy working and unfortunately I can’t hire an army of lawyers to fight this full time in my place. I’m just dumbfounded that we can’t even get little wins.

tqwhite 3y ago

It sounds like we all should 'lose' our credit cards once a year. It's a hassle to give the new number to the companies we want to keep but probably worth it for the ones we don't.

nojvek 3y ago
Then you get all sorts of late payment charges and charges are then sent to debt collection agencies, which then dent your credit score. T-mobile charged me $7 for being 1d late on payment because my credit card expired. No late payment notice. Just a charge on next bill. Verizon is even worse. They have 30 day free trial from the time you sign, not when the equipment is delivered. So if they misdeliver to wrong address, you're on hook for $280 even if you don't have the equipment. US policies and politicians in general are very corporate friendly.

tqwhite 3y ago

Also, WTF?, this article is behind a paywall. Who puts stuff like that on Hacker News? Very irritating.

esskay 3y ago

Not really surprising when its become clear streaming isnt the money maker they all thought it would be. With the exception of Netflix they've all lost billions with zero sign of that changing.

beebmam 3y ago

Just want to say that Paramount Plus is pretty straightforward on how to cancel your subscription. Also a great place if you like Star Trek!

Flatcircle 3y ago

Netflix is the villain

dontrustme 3y ago

It's the fact that unsubscribing to several services on a mobile phone is a nearly impossible task that is infuriating to me. Most streaming apps immediately divert you to their app (if it's installed) if you search for them on the web. These same apps will also tell you to "go to the web to manage your subscription". This forces the user to first delete the app and cross their fingers that the website doesn't just bounce them back over the app store. Also, why has safari's mobile "request desktop site" not worked for me in over 5 years? It never brings a desktop site anymore... so annoying. Apple tried to fix this by diverting any in-app subscriptions thru their app store, but because they take such a substantial cut of the sub revenue, companies would rather redirect users to the web to buy a sub and not provide the capability within the app. Despite Apple's efforts here, it has completely backfired and made the end user experience a deplorable state of affairs.

belthesar 3y ago
> Also, why has safari's mobile "request desktop site" not worked for me in over 5 years? It never brings a desktop site anymore... so annoying. Likely because the site's fingerprinting to determine if you are on a mobile device uses more heuristics than the "Request Desktop Site" functionality leverages. This, IIRC, is just a user agent hack, but browsers send a _lot_ more data about your machine than just a user agent.
wryanzimmerman 3y ago
> Also, why has safari's mobile "request desktop site" not worked for me in over 5 years? In large part because it’s really bad practice to have separate desktop and mobile sites, it’s generally better to just have one responsive site. However, some badly designed sides achieve “responsiveness” by hiding functionally, which is bad because phones have no way to “zoom out” (emulate a larger screen size) to get the buttons to show up.

EchoReflection 3y ago

https://archive.vn/M2Qe1 https://archive.vn/M2Qe1

catboybotnet 3y ago
Many thanks. 12ft.io is disabled for BI, unfortunately.

JohnFen 3y ago

Of course they are. If it's easier for people to cancel services when they want, they are more likely to do so.

deleted 3y ago

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phendrenad2 3y ago

Clickbait/ragebait headline. These companies are voicing serious concerns. As usual, those who don't click the archive.is link will be clueless and uninformed.

dahwolf 3y ago

In the Netherlands, canceling Netflix is actually too easy. It's a single click and then "Bye!" How about begging me to stay? 3 confirmations? An input box where I can vent? A discount to stay? Nothing. It sucks, I want proper closure.

bell-cot 3y ago

Daydream: Companies with customer-hostile subscriptions policies are all required to use the IRS's new "Advanced Corporate Tax Management" web site. Where the ever-shifting dark patterns of UI and ever-resetting defaults (especially the "voluntary extra contribution to the US Treasury") make their lives difficult. And that IRS site's webmasters collect a percentage on those "extra contributions", and appeals can only be made in person on the ISS, and ...

ilyt 3y ago
That's just making few shitty corporate jobs to click thru that while the shareholders are entirely unaffected.

xony 3y ago

we dont like subscription model

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emeril 3y ago

if you're really concerned about this stuff you can use citibank virtual credit cards (a free feature) to just disable the card if you can't easily/properly cancel the service

znxster 3y ago

If its one click to subscribe .. it should be one click to cancel.

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