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I left WhatsApp when it was acquired by Meta (née Facebook) in 2014. I actually lost friends because of it-- they didn't answer calls or texts or any other form
by littlelady 3y ago
I left WhatsApp when it was acquired by Meta (née Facebook) in 2014. I actually lost friends because of it-- they didn't answer calls or texts or any other form of communication on another platform reliably. It was surprisingly difficult to stick to my guns. I did--but it very much impacted my life.
- computerfriend 3y agoSame, but I'm pretty happy about it. I want my friends to share similar values and this is a good filter for that.
- mortehu 3y agoWow, and this is despite the fact that WhatsApp is end to end encrypted and not monetized?
- ElFitz 3y agoI’d be interested to know what, if anything, Meta does with WhatsApp metadata.
- dguest 3y agoI'd be interested to know too, the social graphs they can build must be mesmerizing to browse through.
- SoftTalker 3y agoHow does Meta make money? That is your answer.
- ElFitz 3y agoWe can suppose endlessly and make all the assumptions we want. I am more interested in facts.
- sixstringtheory 3y agoHere’s a fact: Meta grossed $117 billion in 2022. Almost as much as a major car manufacturer. They’re doing things with that data. It’s a scary amount of power.
- ElFitz 3y agoHence my curiosity regarding the specifics.
- mdp2021 3y agoIt is an extraordinary expectation that a piece of software under that ownership will not collect data.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoIt's also an extraordinary expectation that your friends will use the messaging system you dictate.
- rglullis 3y agoIf I tell a friend "I am not going to use WhatsApp. But you can call me, email me, text me, use Signal, use Matrix, knock on my door..." and this friend refuses to keep in touch, who is the one "dictating" the messaging system?
- harshalizee 3y agoYou. If 20 of your friend's are using Whatsapp to communicate just fine, and you demand they change their mode of communication to suit your needs. I'm starting to see why the trope of techies are anti social is so prevalent. Some of you really are absolutely socially inept.
- rglullis 3y agoI'm not asking them to change their mode of communication with others. I'm just saying that I'm not going to join something that I believe to be harmful out of peer pressure. > Some of you really are absolutely socially inept. So if someone tells you "I'm sorry, I am not available at this channel, can we arrange some other method?" and you refuse to accomodate you take the other as socially inept? It seems like you are projecting. Hard.
- mdp2021 3y agoThis is madness, I will say it explicitly, spelt-out. There exist systems which may violate your privacy, and you think that a possible demand to use them from any third party would be "fair", aproblematic?! Good normalcy is that if some acquaintance put as a condition any controversial constraint, such as destructive behaviour ("binge drinking" etc.), irresponsible behaviour, degrading behaviour (that spyware is part of this latter) - the reply is simply "No". And that would be antisocial behaviour, "No, I will not get tattooed (etc.) just because you would like that"?! Children have replaced Men in this world. Edit: oh, and by the way: behaviour that would stick to the framework of proper Society would be «[anti-]social»?!?!?! That is a dire reversal terms, and it shows the (satanic) perversity these """societies""" have reached.
- rglullis 3y ago- They don't need your contact list to still build your contact graph. - They still collect things like your location, your call history, etc. In Brazil it's quite common for people to use WhatsApp to call their doctors. This means that Facebook can know what type of health issues you have just by checking if you are calling/texting a specialist. - They are still owned by Facebook and they take whatever data they can to feed the Borg. - I can not prove it, but I am convinced that they scan the video stream in the device.
- distcs 3y ago> I can not prove it, but I am convinced that they scan the video stream in the device. You can't prove it, alright. But do you mind sharing why you are convinced they scan the video stream?
- rglullis 3y agoIn a public forum, I do mind it. Sorry. It's nothing really embarrassing or wrong, but I worry that it might be taken out of context.
- distcs 3y agoOk. that's fair. thanks for taking the time to respond. appreciate it.
- qwery 3y agoWhy wouldn't you assume they do? Sorry if that sounds argumentative, it's not my intent. As I understand it, their software processes everything you send to/through them. (And it's easy to imagine reasons why they would be interested in doing so)
- robertlagrant 3y agoTaking your first three points as true, the trade is you get free global multi-way instant messaging, including pictures and video/audio clips, and video calling, for no cost other than minimal data costs. Lots of people are currently willing to make that trade, at least until a competitor comes along that offers something better.
- fauigerzigerk 3y agoI recently started using WhatsApp regularly because it's the only convenient end-to-end encrypted messaging app I know. The only thing they seem to be getting out of it is some metadata and the opportunity to sell services to businesses. Seems like an acceptable compromise to me. Previously I used Matrix/Element but never got it to work reliably with my friends (decryption issues, session verification obsession). And Signal has no web app. So WhatsApp it is for now.
- badcppdev 3y agoCan you tell me in words the value (V1) or values that you're filtering for with this life choice? And whether there are other values (Vall) that you hold and would like your friends to hold. And talk to me about the correlation between V1 and Vall. Because my opinion is that my friends willingness (or preference) to use a non secure messaging app owned by a giant tech corp has very very very low correlation with whether I'd like them to be a friend.
- nl 3y agoI agree with this completely. I'd also point out that this is exactly how bubbles occur. "Everyone I know hates WhatsApp/Facebook/whatever" says the person who refuses to communicate via those platforms.
- Zambyte 3y ago> I'd also point out that this is exactly how bubbles occur No it isn't. You'd be surprised in the variety of people that you meet when you don't use algorithmic systems to do so. Just because you only maintain relationships with people who are not so glued to WhatsApp that they won't communicate through any other means, does not mean you have created a bubble for yourself.
- kalleboo 3y agoSo do you just call random phone numbers or something?
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y agoThey might walk somewhere and talk to some of the people they see on the way. They might do something when they get there and talk to people who are doing the same thing (or who just happen to be there).
- kalleboo 3y ago
- emptyfile 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sanderjd 3y agoI want friends with a diverse set of viewpoints and values, within a pretty broad window.
- magic_hamster 3y agoPractically it's impossible to quit WhatsApp, more so in certain countries. However if you still have that old account, you can choose not to accept any of Meta'a new terms and agreements, and surprisingly they still let you use it! The last time I accepted the terms was probably around 2013.
- 3pt14159 3y agoEh—not really. I just say "can we use Signal? It's super secure." And people generally are fine to use Signal. They don't use SMS because it's expensive and many that own an iPhone in countries where Android dominate don't use iMessage because, well, few around them use iPhone and the interface (i.e., the phone number) doesn't really tell them that they won't get charged for a text message. I've posted up in many countries, and it's rarely a show stopper.
- Closi 3y agoThat's fine but you aren't on the group chat, so won't know about the hike next Sunday.
- latexr 3y agoAnecdotally, all of my friends who are part of group chats are annoyed by them. Too much noise for too little signal. On a personal level, if there’s anything in a group chat that would be relevant to me I’ll know about it from one of the participants through another medium, like an SMS or phone call or when we see each other.
- Closi 3y agoYou can be both annoyed and find value in them. Mine are annoying too, but I keep them because they also keep me in the loop.
- counterbead 3y agoif they are people worth your while, they'll make sure to let you know about it using other means...
- nata79 3y agohow was that worth the impact on your life?
- oblio 3y agoHe felt good :-)
- isomorph 3y agoI did the same (although some years after the acquisition) and had a similar experience, though over the years I've managed to claw back some of the friends I lost. Though it's still hard to communicate with them.
- CalRobert 3y agoIt's been slow, but I've noticed a slow trickle of users towards Signal, at least in Europe. I was happily surprised when the owners of a house we viewed defaulted to reaching us via Signal instead of whatsapp.
- Semaphor 3y agoMost people I know are on Signal here (Germany), that includes older relatives. Alas, for group conversations or bad connection situations (e.g. at a festival), everyone uses WA. Not sure why groups are always WA, but Signal (and actually any other messenger) sucks for bad connections.
- sergimansilla 3y agoIn my experience, Telegram excels at speed and bad connection situations.
- Moldoteck 3y agoand at unsecure communication. Their chats aren't e2ee by default, making it worse than Whatsapp. Also, videocalls in telegram are much worse compared to said messenger
- Geezus_42 3y agoI could have sworn WA isn't true e2e. As in it's encrypted over the wire, but the Meta servers decrypt the data during relay.
- losvedir 3y agoNo, WhatsApp is truly e2e encrypted and uses the same Ratchet algorithm in Signal, IIRC. That's why tptacek and moxie were generally positive about it. I think there's something about key rotation and a default setting where it doesn't notify you if the keys change, or something like that, at one point.
- devinjon 3y agoIn my view, and as someone who's never used instant messaging, it should be a small accommodation to make for a friendship. In the same way that I would be happy to provide a vegetarian option at a dinner.
- remedan 3y agoLet's say that person A refuses to use $APP and person B only communicates through $APP. Then, from A's perspective, it is just a small accommodation for B to communicate through alternative means. And from B's perspective, it is just a small accommodation for A to use $APP.
- mordae 3y agoUnless one of them says: "Look, I am not letting Zuck suck up my personal data and watch ads if there is an alternative that's owned by a non-profit, does not show ads and end-to-end encrypts everything as a rule." Asking to use Zucks apps anyway as a small accommodation would paint the one asking as an ignorant who is being unreasonable and does not take care of their digital hygiene properly. Sure, they might resent the other person for pointing their own failings out, but it's hard to actually argue.
- remedan 3y agoI think it's pretty clear at this point that most non-techies place no value on digital privacy. So, from the perspective of someone whose friends all use Zuck's app, the other person is trying to complicate their life for no benefit. Within their value system, they're not being ignorant. Rather, they're perfectly rational.
- hermannj314 3y agoUsually B has several friends, A1...An, that all ask B to use $APP1...$APPk, where k >> 1. There is an incentive to converge to $APP, the tradeoffs are not collectively symmetric when one $APP is already globally dominant.
- jhbadger 3y ago
- H8crilA 3y agoSo it was a very bad decision, you gained nothing, changed nothing, but lost something quite substantial.
- quickthrower2 3y agoHe lost nothing. He gained some information that some people were never his friend.
- lrem 3y agoAnd how was WhatsApp incentivising them to pretend to be friends?
- quickthrower2 3y agoBecause, I am guessing it was less like friendship and more like convenient boredom reduction. The WhatsApp group is there, a joke or whatever gets posted, maybe a lets go to the bar guys (or girls?) but the bond is not strong enough that they bother to contact people who are on another medium.
- H8crilA 3y agoThis is called "splitting", or all-or-nothing thinking. It's a common psychological defense mechanism. You don't just have friends and non-friends. It's a spectrum. By raising the bar for reaching you some people no longer cared to be your acquaintances, and others remained connected but talked to you less frequently. And so you lose some of the contact that you had with other people because of your own actions, no one else's. At the "far end of friendship spectrum", that is the closest form of friendship, there's no one there. Given enough obstacles that you yourself put up eventually you'll lose absolutely everyone.
- Arch-TK 3y agoI genuinely don't get how people manage to find excuses to talk to most people. Even before I left Facebook I mostly spoke to people face to face and when that became impractical I stopped talking altogether.
- elektrontamer 3y agoDid the same for a very long time until recently I had to join a group for colleagues from Istanbul. Just wanted to be notified of any social activities in that group still refuse to use it for anything else. It even cost me a job opportunity one time. You should see the look on peoples faces when I ask them to email me something.
- tambourine_man 3y agoI didn’t have WhatsApp in a country where it’s synonymous to instant message. It did very much impacted my life, missed parties, etc. I caved in during the pandemic. Lots of dear friends and family members, especially elderlies who couldn’t be bothered with anything else, and volunteer work to help the medical emergencies. It felt ridiculous to ask people to use other means of communications under such circumstances. My noble ideologies felt very small and I said fuck it. I’m glad I did. It’s the only Meta service I use, but I’m a heavy user. There’s no turning back.
- kome 3y agoI don't have WhatsApp in a country where it’s synonymous to instant message, and it's pure joy. the joy of missing out.
- tambourine_man 3y agoI get that, but it wears out.
- oblio 3y agoUntil you want to chat with grandma or that girl you really like.
- Koshkin 3y agoYou could use the damn phone as such and call. They even might appreciate it more. (Unless you have to be “chatting” continuously, of course.) And no, nobody really wants to see your face, believe me.
- dopidopHN 3y agoI don’t think those people use the video function of whatapps really often. In many places the default app to text is whatapps. But fair; if in the same country you can call. ( and if not, you can go thought a service allowing you to call abroad. Like the now senile Skype )
- ulfw 3y agoOkay so now we know the downsides. Destruction of friendships and negative impact on your social life. Can you tell us a bit more of the benefits/upsides of your decision?
- throwawaylinux 3y agoWhen you die and go to secular-heaven you will be able to tell Saint Dawkins that you successfully resisted the billionaires by not giving them the pleasure of messaging your friends on their platforms, and will be permitted entry. Just don't tell him you were resisting from your iPhone.
- oblio 3y agoKind of like Marquess Brownlee reviewing tech phones, recommending a ton of them, being asked constantly which one of them he uses, saying it's one of the phones he recommended. And then seeing him in non phone review videos reading stuff constantly from... his iPhone :-)
- MattRix 3y agohttps://youtu.be/zfHTRMnqY5I https://youtu.be/zfHTRMnqY5I
- srameshc 3y agoI did the same in 2014 and lost touch with lots of friends. I am now in touch with a very few via Signal and email or phone. But I couldn't convert many to use Signal, even though they I got them to try it with a lot of effort.
- glauber 3y agoNot having WhatsApp here in Brazil is tough - Basically my entire family and close friends(?) use it as an asynchronous way of communication, which is good at the end of the day. But not answering regular phone calls is not good. Unfortunately I cannot just walk away from it because of this.
- treprinum 3y agoI left FB when somebody on HN leaked they were feeding data straight to some military intelligence agency pipeline. I lost many acquaintances because of it but I saved a huge amount of time and completed two graduate degrees after.
- jacquesm 3y agoCan you dig up that comment? I'd like to read it.
- treprinum 3y agoThe HN search doesn't show anything like that. I wish I saved the link somewhere. It was a long time ago but IIRC they had some bug that browser was directly contacting the agency instead of doing it via a backend or redirects so people monitoring their own online traffic could see the target servers directly.
- billy_bitchtits 3y agoi really need to figure out how to export media from WhatsApp so I can delete it. I have too much and the export option they provide fails.
- oefnak 3y agoYes, I'm in the same boat. And we can all thank the EU that it will be forced to open the API to other chat applications!
- lazylion2 3y agoWhy not get another "unsafe" phone?
- itsoktocry 3y ago>I actually lost friends because of it-- they didn't answer calls or texts or any other form of communication You made an effort to reach out by other means, and they ignored you? This is an odd definition of a "friend".
- ryandrake 3y agoI was ready to post the same thing. If someone is unwilling to communicate with you, well… I have some bad news for ya: they aren’t much of a friend. I don’t use any of these social media sites, don’t use WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, or whatever else is out there, and still manage to have a robust social life and actual friends. They know my phone number if they want to talk, and I know their numbers. It doesn’t have to be complicated or mediated by some megacorp.
- ninjanomnom 3y agoEvery additional form of communication you take part in is a burden to some degree, and depending on the person they may only have the capacity for a handful before it becomes overwhelming. Personally I can handle like 4 forms of primary communication before either further forms become mostly ignored or it starts hurting my ability to communicate with anyone on anything. I can understand that someone, no matter how much they may want to stay in touch, may just be unable to through some forms of communication.
- SoftTalker 3y agoYep, I use SMS and email, and don't see a need for anything else. Neither of these impose any particular demand on anyone who wants to contact me; they don't need to install any apps or set up any new accounts.
- that_guy_iain 3y agoWho says they ignored them? Everyone seems to be jumping to this conclusion that these people weren't friends and that they disliked him in the first place. We've all lost touch with friends. That's how things happen in life. We move on and what not. If you're using one app to talk to all your buddies and one person messages you on a different app. It's very easy to not even notice the other app especially if they don't have it installed or don't get notifications and only go in and check messages once a day and go through the list so they don't get constantly distracted.
- the_gipsy 3y agoIt may go against the principle, but it is possible to use whatsapp (and others) bridged through matrix.
- xwowsersx 3y ago> I actually lost friends because of it- they didn't answer calls or texts or any other form of communication on another platform reliably. Those people were not your friends