14 ms·

Air France denied my delay compensation, so I challenged them and won

• Cyph0n 3y ago
  Air France are complete scumbags. Unfortunately, they are typically the best/fastest option when flying with Delta to Europe.
  • kenhwang 3y ago
    It's European airlines in general. It's what happens when the only airlines are flag carriers that don't have to worry about competition because their respective governments will keep them in business.
    • bobthepanda 3y ago
      It’s interesting because you could say the same about Asian carriers and yet Singapore, Cathay Pacific, JAL etc. are all quite proud and beloved.
      • SeenNotHeard 3y ago
        JAL was privatized in 1987.
        • bobthepanda 3y ago
          Air France-KLM, Lufthansa and BA are also privatized.
      • kenhwang 3y ago
        Because they have competent local competition. ANA is very evenly matched with JAL. Same with HKA and Cathay Pacific. Even Taiwan has China Airlines (flag) and EVA.
    • unsupp0rted 3y ago
      I thought I knew what interacting with empathy-less career government drones was like before but I had my eyes truly opened by Air Canada.
      • chrysler 3y ago
        Air Canada was privatized in 1989.
        • unsupp0rted 3y ago
          They’ve converted into empathy-less career non-government drones. One way or another they have no incentive to be anything but terrible to their passengers.
    • koyote 3y ago
      Europe has plenty of competition in the airlines space? I believe it's thanks to that competition being mostly low-cost that we've now got a race to the bottom in terms of customer service.
      • ekianjo 3y ago
        Customer service was always terrible in Europe
        • koyote 3y ago
          The US legacy carriers were the first "full service" airlines to bring in extra charges for bags, food, seats etc. Luckily delay compensation exists in the EU, otherwise there would be no difference between them nowadays.
          • ekianjo 3y ago
            Its not just US and Europe in the world. Heard of Asia?
    • chrysler 3y ago
      >> It's what happens when the only airlines are flag carriers that don't have to worry about competition because their respective governments will keep them in business. Governments cannot provide aid beyond what a reasonable investor would do. The current European Commissioner for Competition (incumbent since 2014) has had particularly strong focus on that. Several flag carriers that got unreasonable subsidies went bankrupt after they were forced to pay back subsidies. Beyond the European Commission, competitors can challenge approved aid, and they have done so, and they have sometimes won: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/eu-court-backs-ryanair-challenge-klm-tap-state-aid-2021-05-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/eu-court-...
  • mochomocha 3y ago
    They are usually significantly more expensive than United for all SFO<->CDG flights.
    • lmm 3y ago
      But significantly lower risk of getting your teeth busted.
  • ghughes 3y ago
    BA is just as bad. The legacy European flag carriers are now all basically Ryanair with a veneer of prestige but the same number of fucks given about customer service excellence.
    • cogogo 3y ago
      As a regular traveller I have to laugh and disagree. Can’t deny the level of service for flag carriers has dropped but the level of service with Ryanair is an order of magnitude worse.
      • 76SlashDolphin 3y ago
        And as another regular traveller, I have to disagree with your disagreement. It feels like every other BA and Lufthansa flight I get on has issues while I travel to my hometown with RyanAir (due to necessity) frequently and have only had issues due to weather. From what I've seen online and from acquaintances, RyanAir's quality varies depending on the route while traditional airlines have just in general become worse over time.
    • wkat4242 3y ago
      They're actually worse than Ryanair. They have an attitude problem. Ryanair will happily sell you whatever privilege you desire. Priority boarding, seat selection, a nice sandwich. With the legacy airlines you often need to build up points with them first. I much rather fly Ryanair because it's less hassle to get what I need. The problems people have with it usually stem from wanting something but not wanting to pay for it. Bringing too much carryon. Trying to sit together as a family without paying for seat selection and then hassling other passengers on board to move. Stuff like that. Just pay the fee, it's still cheaper than the legacy airline would have been.
  • housemusicfan 3y ago
    I stopped flying AF when they started flying perfectly good albeit temperamental airplanes into the ocean floor. If I wanted to assume that level of risk I'll take my chances on some fartbox submarine. The rigor of their pilot training has since been raised into question.
    • EdwardDiego 3y ago
      IIRC, they've since expanded their training to "the basics of flying a plane without the autopilot holding your hand" and "Here's how to not stall at 35,000 ft, and here's how to recover if you do." The latter part about high-altitude stall recovery was, IIRC, previously absent entirely. https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-way-down-the-crash-of-air-france-flight-447-8a7678c37982 https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-way-down-the-cr...
      • ekianjo 3y ago
        The stall was created by a completely inept pilot in the first place...
      • papertokyo 3y ago
        Air France and Malaysia Airlines are on my 'nope' list and the basic incompetence in AF447 is why.
        • gottorf 3y ago
          MH had a truly awful year that year, but it's hard to blame them for MH370 and certainly not for MH17. Besides that, I think their track record is on the better side among global airlines.
          • sho 3y ago
            Yeah, Malaysian is not a bad airline. Both of those losses were really bad luck that could have, and have, happened to any airline. Not just saying that, I've flown with them twice over the last year and another booked in a few months. After SingAir and maybe Thai, I think they're among the best in the region. LionAir and AirAsia, on the other hand, I wouldn't get on even if their tickets were free...
  • hfkwer 3y ago
    This thread is amazing. I've flown Paris-DC at least ten times over the past three years. (Yes, my carbon footprint is stupid.) Airfrance was systematically the best experience I had. One other company fucked up my connections so bad that the eventually offloaded me to an AF flight. The first company also lost my luggage, and it was airfrance who led the search effort to find it and send it back to me... As for EU companies being shit, I can only laugh. Customer service might be apparently "friendly" in the USA but fuck you if you expect actual compensation for delays or cancellations. There are just zero regulations, so they don't care. They will however smile and call you buddy while explaining to you that they won't do anything and you better not complain again or they'll charge you extra fees. Which I guess has been dubbed as "customer service excellence" elsewhere in this thread.
    • midoridensha 3y ago
      I'm surprised the employees of American-run airlines aren't demanding a tip to board the plane... In all seriousness though, I've traveled between the US, EU, and Japan in the last 5 years, and haven't had any problems, luckily. The one place where I see the US really sucks compared to the others, though, is security: going through TSA is not a very nice experience, and having to take your shoes off is pretty stupid. And having to leave the line or throw your (reusable) water bottle away if there's water in it is idiotic, and only the US does that AFAICT. Going through security anyplace else is a much better experience. This of course is not the airlines' fault. The other big difference between these places/flights I saw is what kind of passengers you're sharing the plane with; American passengers are more annoying to be around, in general. But that's not the airlines' fault either.
    • Cyph0n 3y ago
      I’m glad your experience has been positive. It only takes one big fuckup to ruin a reputation. In my case, my mother and sister were left stranded in CDG during Covid after being denied boarding to the US (EU travel ban). We were unfortunately not aware that the ban also applied to transits. AF customer service in CDG kept redirecting them and provided absolutely zero assistance. They didn’t even help them book a return flight! In the end, I had to book them a hotel online for the night (in the airport) as well as a return flight to their origin. Obviously, the online complaint I filed with them went straight to the trash, so I was never compensated. The AF agent at the departure point should have picked this up as it was most certainly the first thing they check for when your final destination is the US. I have never had such an experience with any US airline. Even Spirit compensated me for delayed luggage without a fuss. But the absolute worst airline I’ve ever dealt with is Royal Air Maroc. I would probably think twice before flying with them for free..
• jawns 3y ago
  The post concludes that because Air France eventually agreed to compensate the passenger, they must have been lying to the passenger initially. I think it's more likely that they decided it would be cheaper to pay the claim than to continue denying it, which would incur costs on their end to provide documentation and defend its denial. Happens all the time with legal settlements. It's not an indication of actual guilt.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • 23B1 3y ago
    Actually, I have been through this and they will absolutely lie, and gaslight you with all kinds of nonsense. I have a series of screenshots and recordings where United would change information on their official app from, say, insufficient crew, to crew rest, to blaming weather. Had to take them to court (their delays cost us thousands) and won thanks to demonstrating how they altered their own information to blame everyone but themselves.
    • apollo_mojave 3y ago
      What was their defense in court?
    • wkat4242 3y ago
      It's funny, I've had this issue with one of the most cost-cutting airlines before (Ryanair). And they just paid right out. A lot more than the ticket for the flight sector had cost, too. And it was due to the airport being closed for inclement weather. Not even their fault.
      • papertokyo 3y ago
        People love to rag on Ryanair but they get the job done admirably for the price you pay.
    • cpncrunch 3y ago
• koolba 3y ago
  I’ve had similar interactions with Air France regarding baggage delays (for days, not hours…). A full compensation claim for any necessities purchased while waiting for your bags requires itemized receipts. The claim must be submitted within 30 days. Unfortunately their website refused to let me include attachments in the request form. Attaching images would cause a bunch of HTTP 500 errors. After repeated attempts, I ended up submitting it without the attachments and added a note that their website was broken. I also took screen shots of the web page, the browser network errors, and recorded all the timestamps. After an extended radio silence that exceeds the deadline to file a claim, they responded that since I didn’t include receipts, they were only going to give 100 euros of compensation. It took a lot of back and forth, calling customer service, learning the exact voodoo to get through to someone who even knew who to contact, and then more back and forth to be able to email them the receipts. The end result was full payment. But only because the principle of getting full compensation and not letting this slide kept me in dogged pursuit. Fuck Air France.
  • pm90 3y ago
    From their perspective, the system probably worked. You're probably 95th percentile of persistence among their customer disputes. Most people would accept the 100 Euros and move on.
    • pixelpoet 3y ago
      I've essentially gifted Deutsche Bahn several hundred euros because it's like drawing blood from a stone and I was genuinely having mental health issues because of it (on top of the stress of having travel plans completely upended).
      • rqtwteye 3y ago
        They probably have lessons from US hospitals and insurances in how to wear down people who complain.
      • Semaphor 3y ago
        Can you elaborate? I have no personal experience as I don’t travel enough, but I heard the reimbursement process is pretty straightforward?
• pingec 3y ago
  I wish there was a huge decision tree covering all possible scenarios for flight delay/cancellation, it is very hard to know exactly whwt to do in such cases.
  • tenpies 3y ago
    And a little check box with the initial claim form: [ ] Check this box if having your claim rejected will make it your life's mission to appeal, cost us exponentially more money in customer services resources, and you're broadly willing to sink hours of clerical work into getting the full claim approved, even if it means you're effectively making less than Singapore minimum wage. If you tick the box your full claim gets approved from the start.
    • avidiax 3y ago
      I think the airlines and various other industries prefer the current trial by ordeal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_ordeal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_ordeal
  • hfkwer 3y ago
    There kind of is. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...
• 23B1 3y ago
  If you want to see how enshittification truly hurts customers, simply check twitter during a storm at, say, Newark or O'hare. Thousands of people stranded in lines with airlines providing one, maybe two CSRs to service them – children crying, parents weeping, family reunions and weddings destroyed, business meetings cancelled. It is a complete embarrassment how weak consumer protections are in the U.S. for travelers.
  • smilespray 3y ago
    Unable to check Twitter due to enshittification.
    • haarolean 3y ago
      This made my day :)
  • MicropenisMike 3y ago
    What's the solution though?
    • lmm 3y ago
      Laws similar to those EU laws mentioned in the article. You can definitely go further than that - a strong consumer protection agency that actually enforced these rules would help more - but having those rules in place would at least help people like OP who are willing to stand on their rights (and in turn that creates incentives for airlines to do the right thing), and is already proven to be a viable approach.
      • garbagecoder 3y ago
        >Laws similar to those EU laws mentioned in the article. Doesn't seem to stop Air France.
        • orangewindies 3y ago
• yardstick 3y ago
  AA delayed my flight out of LHR once by just under a day. No compensation beside food vouchers and put up in a hotel. EU rules applied to them since it was a flight operating into/out of the EU at the time. Reason for delay? Staff shortage due to a (false) fire alarm at their local crew rest hotel meaning the crew could not operate the flight. They claimed such an incident was outside their control and unforeseen. Yet it happened several times in the year odd before my flight. I would have thought they have substitute crews on standby (maybe from an alliance pool?), and at the very least not put all their crew in 1-2 hotels. They told me fire alarms were unusual. I sent them a UK gov report showing hotel fire alarms happened hundreds of times in the prior year. No change. I no longer fly AA- but I don’t expect any US carrier to act differently. Sadly.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • 10u152 3y ago
    Interesting - the argument being that getting woken by a fire alarm precluded work the next day? I did some work for a IHG and was told that one of their Sydney hotels hosted all staff from a particular airline when they were in town. Seems like putting all your eggs in one basket?
    • wkat4242 3y ago
      Well you don't want an exhausted flight crew, trust me. Those rules are written in blood.
      • Aeolun 3y ago
        Yeah, I’ll absolutely take the delay over exhausted crew. It’s just, the airline never tells you why the flight is delayed, it’s just ‘delay’, and you tend to assume incompetence instead of anything else.
        • yardstick 3y ago
• tristor 3y ago
  I am a very frequent traveler, and I want to correct one misunderstanding that the author of this blog has in their About Us page which I think is a more general misunderstanding. Most people believe that you are not entitled to compensation from a US based air carrier for delays or cancellation of a flight, this is true only for domestic flights. For any international flight on a US carrier or originating in the US, you are entitled to compensation under Article 19 of the IATA Montreal Convention of 1999, as the US (along with 130 other countries) is a signatory to this treaty and treaties in the US hold the same force of law as the Constitution. Nothing an airline states in its policies can override the law, and this is as much the law as anything else. Per Article 19 "The carrier is liable for damage occasioned by delay in the carriage by air of passengers, baggage or cargo. Nevertheless, the carrier shall not be liable for damage occasioned by delay if it proves that it and its servants and agents took all measures that could reasonably be required to avoid the damage or that it was impossible for it or them to take such measures." Where this gets a little tricky in the US is that FAA regulations (each ICAO nation independently enforces regulations related to international agreements) specifically give airlines a pass for weather related irregular operations (irrops). The trick is that airlines LIE all the time about this, such as the big blow-up around Christmas last year with Southwest Airlines where they initially claimed it was caused by weather and denied compensation, however later started offering compensation after getting called out by the Department of Transportation. The actual issue was caused by a computer systems problem that affected their crew scheduling software. So just like in the OP, airlines will lie. If you can prove their statement is a lie, you can often get just compensation. The other challenge in the US is that the FAA doesn't take any actions on behalf of consumers in these matters, unlike the role of civil aviation authorities in Europe under the EU treaty. The FTC also rarely gets involved, even though as a consumer-protection item it falls under their purview. If an airline refuses to pony up under Article 19, you usually only have the option to sue them in the US. So, to summarize: 1. You can be compensated for a flight delay or cancellation in the US /if/ it's an international flight under Article 19 of the Montreal Convention (MC99) 2. Compensation is not required per FAA regulations for weather-related delays/cancellations 3. Airlines often lie and claim weather when it's not weather-related, if you can catch them they'll often pony up. 4. If the airline denies your claim, your only recourse is a lawsuit, however it can be handled in small claims.
• teeray 3y ago
  > They know you wont chase them down in courts, and there’s no automatic oversight. Every ticket sold should incur a delay reimbursement tax, and a disinterested third party should process claims. Management fees can be taken out of the tax pool and the balance refunded to airlines when they file at the end of the year.
• MicropenisMike 3y ago
  "if you are dissatisfied with the airline's reply, you may resort to judicial or extrajudicial means." What exactly is "extrajudicial means"?
  • hfkwer 3y ago
    Arbitration.
  • EdwardDiego 3y ago
    Rustle up a posse, the airline knows what it did.
    • bunga-bunga 3y ago
      Horse heads are my go-to.
  • tristor 3y ago
    It means you can bring them into arbitration. Judicial means a lawsuit, arbitration/mediation is extrajudicial. While "extrajudicial" can mean other things, they're not advocating vigilantism against the airline no matter how satisfying it may be for the CSR on the phone to hear about some executive's car getting keyed in the parking lot.
    • wkat4242 3y ago
      Still, throwing a tantrum on Twitter often does help a lot and it's also extrajudicial.
  • brewdad 3y ago
    Hire a man with a very specific set of skills…
• apollo_mojave 3y ago
  I'm American and once traveled through Europe with my then girlfriend, now wife. We had two (!) flights canceled for mechanical issues -- one on TAP, the other on United. Both cancelations resulted in unplanned overnight stays in Lisbon. The folks at the service desk at the airport provided us information about our legal rights after we got off the plane, and my wife and I immediately filed claims. Happily we're both attorneys so this sort of thing comes naturally to us. Between the two of us and two canceled flights, we recovered about USD $2400, which more than paid for our airfare. Honestly, not a bad deal!
  • atdrummond 3y ago
    I know people who purposely schedule transatlantic flights with iffy connections and bad on-time records specifically in order to maximize their chance of EU/UK 261 compensation.
    • gruez 3y ago
      What's the compensation under EU/UK 261? Based on a quick search it looks like it's a 250 euros/pounds for a continental flight, and more if it's a trans-atlantic flight. In the latter case, the delay window is up to 4 hours, which seems unlikely barring some natural catastrophe, which would make the delay ineligible for compensation. What sort of a person has the income to spend on transatlantic flights, but is willing to put up with all that hassle for $250?
      • apollo_mojave 3y ago
        IIRC, it does depend on distance and time, and it maxes out at about $600.
      • Aeolun 3y ago
        The delay window is difference in arrival time. If you have one flight rescheduled you have a pretty good time of making that unless there’s 10s of flights per day to the same destination.
      • cperciva 3y ago
• JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  TL; DR A shortcut in most countries to hiring a lawyer is to loop in a regulator. (You still need to be able to write a coherent, non-ranting complaint letter.)
  • ElFitz 3y ago
    > You still need to be able to write a coherent, non-ranting complaint letter. I’m pretty sure that would be right up GPT4’s street. It has done wonders when we had some trouble with some hotels.
• gouggoug 3y ago
  I recently had an issue with Air France as well while trying to change a "flex" ticket. Flex tickets are just tickets whose dates you can change for no fee, all you pay is the airfare difference. This summer, I needed to change my Flex ticket. So I went online and found a new flight that would cost me just 13 EUR in airfare difference. As I was about to pay for the fare, the website told me "a technical error happened" and that I needed to call customer service... So I called customer service, told them my issue and the flight I was looking for. The agent on the phone told me there was indeed an issue and that he fixed it and that my total fare was 69 EUR. To which I answered that on the website the fare was 13 EUR and not 69 EUR. The agent insisted that the fare was 69 EUR and there was no other possibility. So, as I was talking to him over the phone, I went on the website and tried purchasing the 13 EUR fare... and it went through. I am now convinced that 1- AirFrance is purposefully preventing people from changing their fare online (unless someone on HN tells me they had a different experience) 2- that the agent on the phone did something that allowed me to pay for the fare 3- that the agent or someone was going to pocket out the 56 EUR difference. I might be wrong on all 3 points, and these might just be pure coincidences, but I am used to airlines being scummy, so I'll easily believe my current narrative. edit: I so happen to currently have a Flex fare for a flight in December of this year. I went online and tried changing the fare. And of course the website keeps telling me "Sorry, there are no flights available for this combination of departure airport, arrival airport and travel dates. Please try again.". I took a look at the XHR call and sure enough, although this time it's hidden from me, the XHR response is: {"errors":[{"message":"unexpected error occurred","locations":[{"line":2,"column":3}],"path":["flightOffers"],"extensions":{"code":"3100","exception":{"name":"AviatoError"}}}],"data":{"flightOffers":null},"extensions":{"aviatoCacheControl":{"hasPrivateData":true}}}
  • kbar13 3y ago
    or legitimately there was a server error and you just happened to hit the right "try later" window lol
    • gouggoug 3y ago
      I could have been more clear in my story. I tried multiple times over a few days, before caving in and calling customer support. The agent 100% did something that fixed the error.
• daedric7 3y ago
  The moment I saw Lisbon, I instantly rolled eyes.
• hartator 3y ago
  Lot of work for $658, but I am glad the OP did it and shared it!
  • Fogest 3y ago
    What do you mean lots of work? They replied to a few customer service responses and then sent an email with some proof to the relevant authority and got paid. That's a good amount of money back for a fairly small amount of work. Honestly I'd spend a lot of time even fighting to get $5 back from the company. Sometimes it's just about the principle of the matter and not wanting to be another person they exploit for cash. Because if they do that to 10,000 people that is a lot of extra money they just scammed. I don't like letting companies get away with abusing me like that.
• partiallypro 3y ago
  I just had a friend that flew United, was going to a honeymoon in Argentina. Got caught up in the problems from the past week, they delayed his flight by 6 days (all the rebookings filled up every day going forward)! They refused to compensate him. He had to cancel the whole thing and they wouldn't give him a dime. How is that legal? They claimed it wasn't their fault, so it's not their responsibility to refund. I told him to at least try to get compensated with points (which they will normally do, but it can take a month+ for them to do it and requires a lot of bitching.) I've had my flight delayed by 36 hours before and AmEx did a full claw back of the fare, since I missed a major event I was going to. If I hadn't had AmEx I'd have been SOL. The Airline in my case also claimed it wasn't their fault as well, though we had a 4-hour delay before because of a landing gear problem. They blamed it on air traffic control and said they couldn't do anything to refund me. Very lucky AmEx thought otherwise, otherwise I was out $2k. The airline industry is getting away with murder, which considering they've been saved by the government several times at this point is just infuriating.
  • tristor 3y ago
    > If I hadn't had AmEx I'd have been SOL. Although I wrote about Article 19 of the Montreal Convention below which would have applied in your case, I should point out that in practice as a heavy traveler I mostly also rely on AmEx. AmEx has saved my bacon so many times I've lost count, in one case they basically literally saved my life by providing me a translator and guaranteeing my deposit to be treated in a hospital for 4 days while I was traveling in a foreign country one time. They've helped cover damage to rental cars, and flight cancellations, and all sorts of other things throughout the nearly 20 years I've had my card. While knowing the law is a good thing, I honestly think for us Americans the most important thing is having a competent travel card and knowing what your coverages are and using them. AmEx is a godsend when dealing with shady airlines, rental companies, and hotels.
    • partiallypro 3y ago
      As much of a bad rap as credit cards get (and rightfully so in many cases) having a good travel card is essential if you travel relatively often. I think Capital One is fairly good about this type of thing as well. That being said...such a thing shouldn't be required for most of these instances. Airlines are just screwing people. I understand the frustration people have. I've been lucky to only ever have had minor delays (sans my example,) but people that get really screwed over have every right to be angry and demand the FAA do something.
• atdrummond 3y ago
  If you’re having issues with UK 261 claims, one surefire way to move things along (beyond escalating to the national agency, which may be more or less effective depending on the country of departure) is to take the claim to CEDR. Many times simply filing with CEDR will result in the airline paying out the claim; otherwise, if you have a legitimate claim, they’ll be ordered to pay in a relatively reasonable timeframe. There’s a lot of great airline specific information on EU/UK 261 issues on FlyerTalk.com in the forums if you ever need to conduct additional research.
• zahrc 3y ago
  The best advice I can give people who struggle to claim something from an airline and get exhausted of getting rejected, use flightright.com. (No - not affiliated with them) I had a claim rejected and initially it was rejected when flightright attempted to claim it. It went to court and even after commission I ended up with more money than I paid for the tickets. All I had to do was sign a few documents and have patience.
  • phs318u 3y ago
    Wow. Just checked them out. Hadn't heard of them before. Will definitely be bookmarking this one. Thanks.
  • azov 3y ago
    From their FAQ: > How do I enforce my rights in case of a flight problem? To enforce your claims, it is advisable to seek professional assistance. This makes me reluctant to trust them or their advice. I'd expect an honest answer to be "you can totally do it yourself, but we will help you for X% commission".
    • Fogest 3y ago
      Probably just there for legal reasons. They do mention their compensation on the site however. > If successful, we transfer your money to you immediately. If the airline refunds your ticket within 7 days, our service is free of charge. After that, you only pay if we are successful (commission 14-28% plus VAT). For compensation claims, the commission is usually 20-30 % (plus VAT).
      • Scoundreller 3y ago
        > If the airline refunds your ticket within 7 days, our service is free of charge. I think they know that just never happens.
        • Fogest 3y ago
          If it's under 7 days it's probably because the airline is just less sketchy and it's super easy for them to get the money for you. The ones that take longer are probably the ones that are a bigger pain in the butt.
• mananaysiempre 3y ago
  Transfers of under an hour with AF/KLM are a complete crapshoot; if you actually need to get to your destination on time (as opposed to somewhere within half a day of that), don’t use them (otherwise, go for it). For several years pre-Covid, AF/KLM would sell you evening tickets from Moscow SVO to Paris CDG with a transfer of IIRC half an hour to an hour and a half in AMS, and they virtually never made it, putting you up in the airport hotel until the next flight in the morning. It wasn’t a bad deal if you expected the delay (I still carry around one of the very nice foldable hairbrushes they gave out in the hotel), but I don’t understand how that could ever be a sensible business decision.
  • sprite 3y ago
    I just had a delayed flight out of ATL and missed my 2pm connection at CDG, next flight was 9pm. Delta gave me 15k sky miles, better than nothing I guess.
    • sebii 3y ago
      Should have booked with an EU airline and you would have gotten 600 Euro...
      • Scoundreller 3y ago
        They might still be able to if they were sold a codeshare by an EU airline: https://simpleflying.com/eu-261-applied-to-non-eu-carriers/ https://simpleflying.com/eu-261-applied-to-non-eu-carriers/
        • sprite 3y ago
          The connecting flight was AF, but the delayed flight out of ATL was DL.
  • Aeolun 3y ago
    I’ve never had issues with KLM (aside from the one time when there was a warzone in flux directly beneath their flight path, I can kind of forgive them for that). AF and especially CDG though. That whole place is a shitshow. At least Schiphol allows you to run to wherever you need to be instead of cooling your heels waiting for the shuttle to arrive.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• PaulWaldman 3y ago
  It seems that the tickets indicate the flight was purchased through Delta. Wouldn't it be necessary to address these claims with the carrier from whom you bought the ticket, rather than the carrier who operated the flight?
  • tristor 3y ago
    No, the claim is to the operator, not to the ticker originator. These are claims related to "irregular operations" in aviation speak, so are the responsibility of the operator. This has weird impacts sometimes, but in most cases the operator and the ticket originator are the same for most people so doesn't much matter.
• foxh0und 3y ago
  Took me 6-7 months to get my compensation from Etihad after I was bumped off my flight for technical issues, and had to stay in transit (in a hotel albeit) for 24 hours.
• Izikiel43 3y ago
  I did the same with Icelandair, they didn’t answer within the allowed time, raised the issue to the Icelandic air controller, and suddenly they decided to answer emails. Our flight from Canada to Europe and back became free.
  • brogrammernot 3y ago
    I should’ve done this a few years ago, I lost out on some nights because they had to move my flights up because of a weather event. Didn’t get anything besides “free” flight change. Now I know better
• callmeed 3y ago
  I'm about to submit a delay compensation claim with Air Canada. Any tips?
• azov 3y ago
  Had a similar story with British Airways. My flight was cancelled last moment and I was rebooked for the next day - changing my direct flight to an inconvenient connection and arriving to the final destination over 24hrs late. When I filled out compensation form they first lied to me about who operated the flight: it's not us, it's our codeshare! Once we sorted it out they lied about the distance: your disrupted journey was less than 1,500km, so here is less then half of your compensation (for a flight from London to San Francisco). I eventually got my full compensation, but it took several months of back and forth. Airlines will absolutely lie to you, in writing, about the things that are trivial to verify. I guess there's no downside to them - in the best case some people may settle for no or smaller compensation, in the worst case they pay what they were supposed to pay anyway.
  • byecancer21 3y ago
    AF also tried to pull the codeshare thing with me once. Didn't want to go around in circles with customer service and found it easier to initiate litigation. AF then hired a big law firm to defend the tiny case. A week before a scheduled court hearing their lawyer calls me to negotiate. I tell her there is nothing to negotiate about, and she agrees. We chat for an hour anyway which was surely billed to her client AF. I receive full payment two days later. Haven't booked an AF flight since.
    • Scoundreller 3y ago
      Which jurisdiction was this lawsuit filed?
    • cubefox 3y ago
      What were you chatting about for an hour then?
  • adhvaryu 3y ago
    Interesting, I had a comp case with BA but it was very easy. Likely because they were clearly at fault (mechanical failure) but all I had to do was fill in one form and I had my money 3 months later. I think the experience is circumstantial and definitely depends on how 'obviously' in fault the airlines is. All in all I came out with a profit of £200 but can't say 24 hours at an airport is worth it honestly.
• jupp0r 3y ago
  I wish US airlines had to follow similar regulations. EU passenger rights are awesome.
• atum47 3y ago
  I'm trying to do the same with United. They kept in the airport from 9 am to 5 pm (they kept delaying the flight hour by hour until they cancelled) and they say they didn't need to provide me a hotel because the flight was cancelled due to external forces (outside their control). I think it was a lie. The plane was in the gate they did not have the crew to fly it. I'm Brazilian and that happened in the USA, so I'm not quite sure how to proceed. But I'm thinking about sueing them in the small cases tribunal. Sorry if this is not completely related to the story, i just felt like getting it out of my chest.
• lxm 3y ago
  ITA (former Alitalia) lost my baggage in transfer and delivered it four days later. While their phone support in Italy assured me I could send in the receipts for essentials and a change of clothes, their US office completely ghosted my inquiries and receipt scans. I filed a complaint with US Department of Transportation https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/file-consumer-complaint https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/file-consumer-com... received a written confirmation from DOT that yes, they agree what ITA did was wrong and that my case was being forwarded to the airline. A few days later a manager who was suddenly "informed of my disappointing experience with ITA" reached out and asked for the receipt scans to be sent directly to him. Not that it inspired any confidence in ITA processes (there was no ticketing system, just a message to the guy's corp email account) but I did get my check a month or so later.
  • Fogest 3y ago
    I've found that contacting regulating bodies/government agencies is often the best way to get a resolution when a company is shady. They will rollover easily once they get a call from the government telling them they are in the wrong. In Canada my phone company raised my phone plans prices randomly. Companies are typically required in law to give proper warning to the customer of such changes. Their "warning" was a single month of notice, and they put it on a tiny section on page 7 or 8 of the phone bill. The bills are digital and I have it set to autopay the same amount every month. So of course no reason to read an 8-9 page bill every month. They had my email on file, as well as my phone number. They send promo message offers all the time to my email and phone number yet used none of those avenues to inform me the price would be increasing. Who knows if their fine print method of increasing prices is legal or not, but I contacted the relevant agency in Ontario, Canada and they contacted me a week after the ticket for details. They indicated it doesn't sound like I was properly informed and they would reach out to the phone company. Soon after I get a call from the phone company. They set my bill back to the previous rate plus applied a $10 discount per month for a year. Great for me, but ultimately I still hate it. Because they know it's wrong to do, but they do it anyway because there isn't much competition. They know most people just won't say anything and will suck up the extra cost or not even notice for awhile. Even if it's $5 a company wrongly took from me I will go out of my way to get it back. Because if everyone lets them get away with it then they will keep doing it.
• gavinsyancey 3y ago
  If they falsely deny the claim, they should have to pay double or triple damages. Otherwise there's nothing stopping them from denying every claim until you fight them hard enough to force them to pay (and in fact it seems like many airlines do just this).
  • waqf 3y ago
    Triple damages, that reminds me of something … if you happen to live in Massachusetts you might be able to send them a Chapter 93A letter (which entitles you to triple damages if they don't attempt to settle in good faith)
  • tehwebguy 3y ago
    This may be the difference between arbitration and court. My guess is the arbitration company doesn’t care if their biggest client is always lying or not but a judge might just ruin your attorney’s week if you give them lies to present in court.
  • occz 3y ago
    Mandatory fines in the seven figure range would maybe be a sufficient deterrent, on account of most people probably not even filing claims, and less people disputing a denial. The penalties need to be extremely harsh to make up for this imbalance. Another solution would maybe be to not require people to claim by law, and make it mandatory for airlines to pay this out themselves. Combine with airlines having to self-report every flight and its on-time status to a governing body, which can then audit their honesty in this regard. The current system, while better than nothing, is in all honesty inadequate.
  • LorenPechtel 3y ago
    I've been saying this for years. Improper denials or non-payments (like when the other driver's insurance went silent after agreeing on what they owed me) should carry a penalty multiplier and a high interest rate beyond that. If improper rejection saves them money they'll do it. The system has to be engineered that proper behavior is also economically sensible behavior.
• dfsakljvklj 3y ago
  > Just to be clear: ANAC requested clarification from Air France, and instead of blaming weather or ATC, AF simply rolled over without challenge. Why? Because the burden of proof falls on the airline and they were presumably lying to me. Just because big corp X disagrees with you doesn't mean they're all baddies. Maybe they really were lying to you. Or maybe whoever's job it was to document the weather issue didn't document thoroughly enough. You don't know, and shouldn't just presume mal-intent.
  • brewdad 3y ago
    Forgive me, but when it comes to corporations and a fair number of people, I’m going to assume mal-intent in matters of money.
    • gdflkjslkdaj 3y ago
      Reality is corporations are made of people, just like you. In fact you may know someone who works for a corporation.
• mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Note the legislation was passed over a decade before the pandemic decimated the airline workforce. I'm surprised more flights aren't canceled. We have had a few more close call mid-air incidents, and I would expect more mistakes with such a thinned out team.
• pcurve 3y ago
  Not to teabag on Air France, but I was curious about how bad the delay is at the Lisbon airport. 1. Toronto Pearson International Airport: 51.9% 2. Montreal-Trudeau International Airport: 47.8% 3. Frankfurt International Airport: 44.5% 4. Humberto Delgado Airport (Lisbon): 43% 5. London Gatwick Airport: 42% 6. Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport: 41.6% 7. Munich International Airport: 40.1% 8. Manchester Airport: 39% 9. Athens International Airport: 38.5% 10. Vancouver International Airport: 37.8% Fewest? Japan Haneda: 13.6% I guess I'll have to watch out for layover at these airports. Hrm.
  • midoridensha 3y ago
    >Fewest? Japan Haneda: 13.6% This doesn't surprise me at all. (Note: Haneda is in Tokyo) What's worse is Tokyo (and much of Japan) gets a lot of bad weather from typhoons during the summer. But the weather doesn't disrupt things very much. Most of these other places (like London, Frankfurt, Vancouver, etc.) don't have this problem, or other problems with natural disasters (Japan gets earthquakes all the time), but they still can't keep things working smoothly for some reason.
    • Xixi 3y ago
      I wonder if it's the same as with the Shinkansen: they are not running when there is a typhoon, and stop when there is an earthquake, but typhoon/earthquake induced delays/cancellations are usually not included in statistics (at least the ones you generally read in the press). So it's possible that due to typhoons more than 13.6% of flights are late in Haneda, but they are simply not included here.
• patrickdavey 3y ago
  We had a delayed flight (24 hours) from Frankfurt to Christchurch, New Zealand. As the compensation is a sliding scale of time and distance we were the maximum. It did take about 4 months to get the money, but, Singapore air were very good (well, they didn't deny anything at least). Hurrah for European legislation, and hurrah for Frankfurt airport not letting take offs after 11pm so that even if they could have fixed the fault in time it would have been too late :)
• brogrammernot 3y ago
  Is there a reliable, not too biased source/website to read about what airlines are best to take for what routes? For example, I’ve flown BA and AA to LHR direct & it was an awful flight (tiny seats & super uncomfortable) & would’ve paid more $$$ for a better airline but I couldn’t find a reliable website to help me understand who generally has better seats (pitch, width, etc) and all that. I’ve resorted to my own spreadsheets for flights (I know…) where I put the different info down & then compare prices. It’s not awful but damn, it’s a bit time consuming. For context, I’m not an overweight individual I’m just willing to pay extra to not be crammed into a tiny seat with no pitch for 12+ hours.
  • thesh4d0w 3y ago
    Get into credit card churning and use the points to fly business class.
    • brogrammernot 3y ago
      Yeah, I’ve looked at that and done the points guy, transfers, spend X in 4 months get XX points but was hoping there was a general guide to flying in economy without losing your fucking mind lol
  • splonk 3y ago
    SeatGuru isn't perfect but it'll be right more often than not with the seat dimensions, especially on popular routes. Realistically I think airlines have figured out that they're mostly competing on price, not seat quality. Very few people price out flights and then choose the one that's $20 more expensive based on what the seats are like.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  • rurban 3y ago
    As general rule, always fly KLM the atlantic route. Houston is business class only with normal fares. I.e. you can sleep through.
• vzaliva 3y ago
  Given the time and effort spent to get compensated, the amount should be significantly increased in the law.
• jagtstronaut 3y ago
  Same thing happened to me except it was with air Portugal. They would never reject me but they would always say something like, “call this number and they will help you” and no one would ever answer. The day I submitted a claim to the right governing body they sent me my money haha. 900 bucks so I was pretty hype.
• dclowd9901 3y ago
  I actually think this law might have some bad unintended consequences if people are able to recoup fees in earnest. The last thing I think we want is a plane trying to rush off without necessary checks. Airlines already have a pretty good incentive structure to fly people out on time. Not sure it needs a time pressure on top of it.
• loufe 3y ago
  I am going through a similar case here in Canada, and our government body (the CTA) responsible for handling claims against the airlines told me this last month: "We continue to receive a high number of cases. There are more than 46,000 cases waiting to be reviewed. The wait time between when you submitted your case and when it is reviewed can be more than 18 months." I have written proof that they changed narratives partway through, but given the long delay, I'm not holding my breath.
• Affric 3y ago
  I despise Air France perhaps like few other companies. [1] With that said: > Why? Because the burden of proof falls on the airline and they were presumably lying to me. This is a non sequitur. Dispute resolution schemes like these (Ombudsman etc) are rightly set up so that the customer cannot under any circumstances simply be dismissed by the heft of the corporation. Going through any kind of dispute resolution process the corporation will often look at the cost of winning and decide that it's simply cheaper to give the complainant what they want. It's the height of arrogance to come out of this thinking anything else except that Air France chose the cheapest option. [1] Air France once delayed a flight my mother and my siblings were meant to be on by 8 hours and 56 minutes and then told my mother that if she did not board then she'd lose the money for all the tickets despite our plans being obviously destroyed. There was no compensation of any sort. We would only have been eligible for a refund if they had taken 9 hours delay. In tears, she got us on the plane.
• firstlink 3y ago
  It looks like there are no provisions for double or treble damages. Look no farther for the reason airlines deny automatically.
• justinclift 3y ago
  Wonder if this person is still able to use Air France? aka, I'd kind of expect them to be banned now
• gbil 3y ago
  Funnily enough I just had a similar interaction with Lufthansa but the result was much different, within half an hour of filling in the relevant form I got the reply with the proper compensation amount and within 2 days entering my bank details the transfer was complete. Good to have the view on different airlines
  • CogitoCogito 3y ago
    Lufthansa moved my girlfriend's flight by an entire day and then when calling in, the worker even admitted it saying she could see she was never informed. She found this out upon arrival to the airport. They never did anything for her. After she kept the tickets leaving a day later, on one of her legs she missed a connection and had to spend the night and they refused to do anything for her. Not pay the hotel not pay a late fee, nothing. In fact, they didn't even get on the phone with here at the airport. Lufthansa has changed flights on me and never done anything for it and basically just said "cancel it and take back the 15% which is taxes which we'll return to you". At the time I didn't have the bandwidth to do anything else. They never even paid and it's too much energy to even get anyone to acknowledge this. Fact is Lufthansa also is a shit organization. The correct thing is to either (1) with minimal effort send official complaints to government agencies with documentation, (2) to hire one of those companies to just do it for you, or (3) go zen and just stop caring that companies are breaking their contracts and ignoring their legal obligations. Sure sometimes it works, but no Lufthansa isn't one of the good airlines. They're just as corrupt as the rest.
• mig39 3y ago
  ANAC doesn't fuck around. And they're great with e-mailing in English. So formal though :-) I've had a similar issue with KLM, and once ANAC is involved, it's over.
• perlgeek 3y ago
  Next step: open a criminal case for attempted fraud with your local prosecutor. I find it outrageous that we simply let it slide that companies lie to avoid fulfilling their legal obligations, and count it as a victory if we can get them to pay up eventually. Where are the consequences?
• kif 3y ago
  When in Italy, my train was delayed by more than two hours due to bad weather. I got an email saying I might be entitled to compensation. So I completed a simple form regarding my itinerary, and it confirmed it, and processed it automatically.
• ritzaco 3y ago
  > My itinerary allowed for just an hour to disembark the first segment, go through immigration in Paris, then board the international segment. This connection was going to be tight—doable, but tight. Yeah anyone who has been to CDG (Paris) knows that that is very much not doable in normal circumstances. CDG is honestly one of the worst airport experiences of my life and many others say the same. I happily pay more for flights to avoid going through paris.
• ranting-moth 3y ago
  The airline I flew with just ignored my compensation request. After an initial automatic "Thanks, we're working on it", there was no replies or response. When I finally took them to the local CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) the responded very quickly. The CAA had already investigated that specific flight due to complaints from other passengers.
• prima-facie 3y ago
  These days I just use a third party service to sustain these claims for me. Not worth the time, effort and anxiety in dealing with these companies. I used AirHelp (they're a german company) and received compensation from a bunch of Wizzair flights. Airhelp has an easy online form which always works, you can upload documents, screenshots, etc. And they keep you posted with periodic emails on the outcome. This is not meant as an ad for them, I'm genuinely satisfied even though they kept some money as part of their commission fee.
• boulos 3y ago
  Related: what experiences have people had with middlemen services that handle the EU claims process for you?
• zudcow 3y ago
  I used to work as a major European lowcost airline customer rep and handled Eu261 requests. All disrupted flights were being collected to an excel sheet and let me tell ya, the "Settle" or accept claims category lines always seemed arbitrary. Think 60-80% Deny category on each batch of disrupted flights. Made up and simplified example: Flightnumber123 - Paris to London - cancelled due ATC disruption --> Decline Flightnumber124 - Paris to Eindhoven - cancelled due ATC disruption --> Settle The real kicker: if claims came through a lawyer/solicitor we had to escalate to "Senior Agents" due to "procedural differences", as in the company actually had to pay 80% of time which was an open secret in the office. (but with other shady stuff like waiting for customary UK solicitor's 'Last Request' type of emails to eventually accept the valid claims).
• commiepatrol 3y ago
  Does a similar law exist in the USA?
• nickdothutton 3y ago
  Remember, you cannot improve the customer service of these companies. The only way they “get better” for them to fail, collapse, and be replaced by new companies. Every compensation claim brings this brighter future closer.
• tt_dev 3y ago
  Similar experience with TAP. Delayed bags by 1 week out of LHR. - Submitted 10 support tickets. - Created a well crafted PDF with meticulous detail of receipts, ticket numbers, costs, justification for costs and problems encountered with the websites. - Found 4 emails for them and sent an email every other day using a script Got full payment about 6 months later. To be fair they got hacked that year so had some bigger issues. But it seems that the attachments and media uploads on websites is a common bug/tactic.