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“How is your thesis going?” Students’ perspectives on mental health and stress

120 points by luplex 3y ago

tomohelix 3y ago
I think the only reason I was able to get through my PhD was because I am used to the work culture and expectations. After going into the industry in a relatively healthy and good company, I realized just how much stress I had and how bad it was in academia. In a way, the grinder serves as a test of willpower and discipline and those who could persevere through it can say they have the mental fortitude to handle stress and still achieve results despite adverse circumstances. Whenever I am kinda stressed out, I recall my time in school and it gives me something similar to "I have been through worse, I can make this work". On the other hand, I tell everyone who bothers to ask that no, a PhD is not worth it. Get a master and go to work. Or better, get a BS and make the company sponsor that master degree. That PhD will drain both your life and energy and once you got it, you will still need to compete against people of your level. Nothing changes except a permanent mental scar.
- leaveitalone 3y ago
  As a solid B student denied access to a PhD, folks that get PhDs for business reasons really bug me. Especially if they then go on to complain that it was hard. You don't realise how much some of us want to do research but can't get into academia because other, smarter people take the spots for prestige or money. Like, go away and just work on wall street if you're not interested in doing actual science.
  - maxmalkav 3y ago
    The main complain in my environment (composed by both doctors and dropouts) is not about "it being hard" but "it being disappointing", specially when you are interested in doing actual science but you find that will be a small part of the process and many times not as rewarding as expected. You add department politics, personal differences with supervisors or the whole publishing business to the mix and it can get really ugly really fast.
    - leaveitalone 3y ago
      Yeah, but I do wonder how much of the reason you're experiencing that is because a lot of the people who make it miserable are there for the wrong reasons?
  - vector_spaces 3y ago
    I'm sorry that you were denied access, gatekeeping is real, especially in STEM fields. I just want to offer that not everyone doing a PhD is doing so for reasons of money or prestige, and not all of them are coming from money or prestige. And the gatekeeping doesn't end once you get in, either. If anything it intensifies the further along you get, and by orders of magnitude the more your circumstances don't parse to something like {age = <30, marital_status = single, kids = false, parental_income = upper_class | middle_class, parental_support = true, needs_to_work_to_survive = false, parent_has_bachelors = true}
    - leaveitalone 3y ago
      I'm not sure it was gate keeping, I think there just weren't enough spots and my grades weren't as good as my competitors. Just wish the ones who didn't want to do it didn't bother so that more spots for us lesser graded people could have got in.
      - lumiukko 3y ago
        But even the grades are highly contextual. I am unfamiliar with how much they vary across the US, but usually grades depend a lot on the university itself and the professors teaching or grading the courses. The prestige of the university may be taken into account as well. Perhaps it wasn't possible to go to a "better" university, due to financial or simply personal reasons. Diversity is a really important aspect in building PhD cohorts and research teams - only choosing the best candidates based on grades introduces a bad bias that may even exacerbate the situation.
  - ray__ 3y ago
    Not criticizing your take, just curious–grades and GPA have never been a primary factor for any of the PhD admissions committees that I've been on or exposed to. Usually other factors like research experience, letters of rec, and other personal experiences easily outweigh grades, especially if they're just Bs (very low grades would be an issue). Where are your B grades affecting your grad school applications?
    - leaveitalone 3y ago
      It was 20 years ago now, and you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average. This was in Ontario, Canada.
      - clipsy 3y ago
        > you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average Then no one "took your spot."
        leaveitalone 3y ago
        Hi clipsy, it wasn't a cut off, it was just that there were enough people with higher grades taking the spots. If some of those people didn't want to be there and didn't take the spots that they earned, I'm sure they'd have reduced the entry requirements. Best of luck in your future endeavours.
        clipsy 3y ago
        Apologies for my misinterpretation; I can't honestly say I agree with your overall point of view but my objection was misguided.
  - pokerface_86 3y ago
    [dead]
- georgeburdell 3y ago
  For me, the biggest drawback was doing all of the life things later. I graduated at 27, which is on the earlier end, then met my partner a year later, got married 2 years after that, bought a house 2 years after that, and then 2 years after that finally felt settled enough to have our first child (second was born 3 years later). Money was usually gating each step. We’re going to be pushing 70 before our children have children, if they take the same path.
  - TotalCrackpot 3y ago
    Do you have a mortgage on the house or is it actually yours?
    - lumost 3y ago
      Buying a house without a mortgage is something available to a privileged few. Even if the option is available, it’s arguably unwise until you have to prioritize cash flow in your retirement.
  - lumiukko 3y ago
    Are you aware of how privileged you are?
    - tomrod 3y ago
      When discussing with someone, proper manners enlightens a discussant to avoid painting them into a proverbial corner, since such is a negative interaction. From what I read, the person worked their tush off to get through a graduate program, then pushed for more money in a career. What aspect of this do you find privileging? Working their tush off? Pushing for opportunities? A small set of comments online tells one nothing about the background of a person, unless one actively looks for dog whistles and shibboleths.
      - lumiukko 3y ago
        It appeared they rant about how "doing all the things in life later" was the biggest drawback and continues to contradict the point by providing a timeline that places them at 33yo with all of the listed life goals achieved, starting with a graduation (I assume by the context, with a PhD, at 27). Some of such life goals are not even achievable for some. It sounds like a simple attempt to humble-brag. Assuming that they worked their tush off or pushed for opportunities also sounds coming from some privileged background, as it seems to assume that hard work and proper initiative would be sufficient in achieving such things, while for some people the first guard is already getting the necessary elementary education, while being in a stable and safe environment.
- bshep 3y ago
  So i did a masters in engineering(3yrs), worked for 2 years then went into med school (4yrs) and finished residency (3yrs) in the same time a friend of mine did a PHD in engineering… I was shocked when i found out he had just finished the PHD when i was graduating residency.
  - make3 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - AlexSW 3y ago
      Presumably that the opportunity cost can be rather high.
  - dfit99 3y ago
    Just curious, what inspired you to pursue medicine. I have been a SDE at a FAANG with 7 years of experience, but I am curious in maybe pivoting into medicine or at least combining the two fields. I have been feeling extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and was hoping pursuing medicine would give me some renewed passion.
    - 2snakes 3y ago
      You'll need to exhibit character like servant leadership to do well as a doctor.
      - 2snakes 3y ago
        And by that I mean not burning out. The demands on a M.D. are intense. At least from what I know of the ones I’ve talked to.
    - Arch-TK 3y ago
      I've dealt with extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and changed professions (albeit from software to information security) and after years I am again facing the same issues. I feel like there may be deeper problems here. In retrospect, while a career change hasn't damaged my career prospects, (on the contrary, it seems like I am probably more employable) I certainly don't have as much experience in either field as I would have if I had just stuck to one (although, through diligence, I have kept on top of my software skills, at least in my particular set of niches). As such, I can't necessarily recommend pursuing this type of solution to your particular problem (although medicine definitely seems distinctly different to tech so maybe it WILL solve the problem). I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe consider other options such as trying to completely understand the root cause for your dissatisfaction and extreme boredom. Believe me, I know this isn't easy, but at this point I am at a loss for other options and feel like I must figure out exactly what causes me to feel like this in order to avoid having this happen a third time.
- zwaps 3y ago
  I went from finishing my PhD straight into consulting and I am happy about the reduced stress and better work hours
- twelve40 3y ago
  Several startups back, I worked for a pompous boss, ex-Goldman-VP, who told me that people who get masters are worse programmers, especially if it's from a better school than their bachelor's. You'll be surprised how many nutty biases people have out there.
  - totoglazer 3y ago
    Isn’t this a pretty universally held opinion?
    - sgillen 3y ago
      I haven’t seen this bias personally, what is the thought process behind it? If they were any good they would just have gotten a job or something?
      - totoglazer 3y ago
        Exactly. The cynical view: If you were any good you wouldn’t need the master’s degree. If you were good and wanted to learn more you’d do a PhD. But you didn’t learn what you were supposed to in undergrad, or could not get/do a job, or need a visa. So you paid a bunch of money to some school that wouldn’t let you into undergrad or a PhD, but will take your cash for a full fare professional masters degree mill. I’ve seen this in industry and in academia.
        wink 3y ago
        See my other comment, would be fascinating to know if the general perception has changed in countries where the Bachelor's + Master's system has not be the norm forever, i.e. 10-15y ago I knew no one who only did a Bachelor's, then a few started doing that in Computer Science, but still kinda rare. Maybe it's different now. (Of course the degrees still being basically free compared to the US makes a huge difference if you're willing to stay another year or two..)
        3y ago
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  > make the company sponsor that master degree Just a note that I jumped from academia to industry last century, and even then although my advisor and department (science) were horrified at the thought of aiming for anything less than a doctorate (masters? that's a consolation degree!), when I went to talk with the Dean (engineering) he gave me exactly the same advice: if you want a degree, get your company to pay for it.
  - throwaway9870 3y ago
    What is your degree in? Because when I got a PhD in EE it was covered by either being a Research or Teaching Assistant. What school/dept would suggest aiming for anything less than a PhD as horrifying? Most students go that path.
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      Planetary science.
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  > Nothing changes except a permanent mental scar. That's a very broad generalization. Everybody has a different experience, depending on the field, their advisor, their lab, their skills, their personality and so on... To me, a PhD was pretty much like any other job. The last couple of months were bit harder because of the final deadline, but nothing drastic when you're young. My current job in industry is more stressful overall. What sucked for me was after the PhD, being an academic, but it's another story.
  - Fomite 3y ago
    Indeed. For me, my PhD was eye-opening in that it was the first opportunity to work the way I wanted to work, and realizing how much more productive I could be that way.
    - Balgair 3y ago
      What field?
      - Fomite 3y ago
        Epidemiology
- blueprint 3y ago
  on behalf of the world i would like to express thanks to all scientists who have borne personal costs to advance our understanding and life quality wherever it really has done so
- fsckboy 3y ago
  a lot of what you describe in terms of work culture, expectations, stress, grinder, test of willpower and discipline... is pretty much how high achieving students who suicide describe their lives. So, it's not fortitude, it's other supportive elements of one's emotional life that get one through it.
peachypeach 3y ago
Honestly it really just seems like the world’s PhD programs are designed to ritually haze students and sort them into academic society based on unsustainable and barely acceptable expectations. I do not have a PhD but all my friends who do (save one) have expressed that they would rather have done something else with the time and resources it took to get theirs. Really sad. My cousin is a Psych professor at an Ivy League and he says that in his first class of the semester he tells everyone getting PhDs they will likely be taking antidepressants by the time they finish -and- that probably all of their professors are already taking them. Chilling honestly.
- 78124781 3y ago
  "Honestly it really just seems like the world’s PhD programs are designed to ritually haze students and sort them into academic society based on unsustainable and barely acceptable expectations." This is accurate. It's very hard to explain to people who haven't been through a PhD program the kinds of expectations that are placed on students (example: highly influential profs telling an incoming cohort that their expectations were "all of you should get a top-20 job"). Those who do not "make it" are spoken of in hushed tones as if they died and even those who go on to great industry jobs are considered failures of some degree. Many of those who "make it" and get those vaunted prestigious TT jobs are also desperately depressed in many cases (at least up through getting tenure, but even afterward the whole experience seems scarring). This seems to select for incredibly dedicated and usually quite intelligent, but also very obsessive and emotionally fragile people to finally make it through into permanent employment in academia. They then often have similar expectations for their grad students to do the same as they did, even if they claim on social media to be "caring" and such.
  - 2snakes 3y ago
    Yeah, such is the effect of "jigsaw puzzling" hundreds of papers to get a feel for a field. One had better be really interested to come into dialogue with others' observations, and not have it be trite. Philosophically, scientific idealism instead of materialism is one possible way forward as the sense/relationship of self-other evolves.
- 3y ago
TotalCrackpot 3y ago
Imagine that students used to be very active in various grassroot political movements, and these days they cannot organize themselves to do some huge protest, stall every university lesson, not grade papers and finally get some huge reforms that would help them and the rest of the faculty. Unfortunate, this probably happens because people who do PhD are not actually very assertive on their own and they have very impaired cooperation skills.
- shikshake 3y ago
  > people who do PhD are not actually very assertive on their own and they have very impaired cooperation skills Where exactly are you pulling this from? That has not been my experience, both from my research lab and from other students I've met at a variety of conferences.
  - TotalCrackpot 3y ago
    Why they don't organize, do a mass protest and get better treatment from the system?
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      They do organize, PhDs at my uni (grad students in general) have their own union which negotiates contracts, benefits and minimum wages. The issue is that there's only so much they can do given their position as people more dependent on the system than the system is on them. Especially when adding in how different PhD programs and funding can be between departments or even within deparments.
    - shikshake 3y ago
      Because their work does not directly financially support the university in the short-term, so any forms of protest negatively affect their own advisors while the institution feels very little impact. There are still student unions and this is an ongoing discussion in the academic community. Again, why do you claim phd students are "not assertive" with "impaired cooperation skills"? Or is that just a personal judgement on your part?
marcodiego 3y ago
My father died (heart attack) while writing his master thesis, 2001. In the closer family we all attribute this to stress during the period. He was a professor at a university, maintained a farm and often traveled to São Paulo for meetings with his advisor and classes. It was a common sight for me to go sleep while he was still writing, wake up and see him still writing. He had a coffee, went to the farm, come back home, lecture at the university and went back to writing again. When he could, he went to São Paulo. I went somewhat the same route. I finished my master degree but I gave up doctorate when I started to feel the impact it had in my health. Not only mentally but also physically. My girlfriend is now also somewhat on the same route. Fortunately she will finish her doctorate soon and will still be alive, but I see many of the symptoms of my father in her.
- nradov 3y ago
  I'm sorry that you lost your father. But stress alone doesn't cause heart attacks. Most likely there was some other medical issue. https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/risk-factors/stress https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/risk-factors/stres...
shikshake 3y ago
The responses on this thread from january did a good job of displaying the variety of phd experiences HN users have had: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34449626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34449626 From these and my own experiences, the results of this study are not surprising but I'm happy to see some published work on it.
beoberha 3y ago
I only have a Bachelor’s but work at a large tech company where a good portion of the technical leadership have PhDs. I can’t imagine deciding to just go for a PhD right out of undergrad. In the grand scheme of things, you know nothing after a 4 year degree. I could not fathom finding a topic on which you are truly passionate and decide to dedicate the next 5-7 years of your life studying it. After 6 years in industry, I have a much more solid foundation and idea of what I want to focus on for the rest of my career. But at this point, getting a PhD is not remotely a possibility for numerous reasons. It’s an interesting conundrum and I see a lot of PhDs who advise against getting one. But I will always have a small pang of jealousy towards those that have one.
- GianFabien 3y ago
  People doing a PhD immediately after their bachelors or masters are used as cheap workers by the PIs to do some subset of their main research, to write papers and TA. I went back to do my PhD after more than 20 years in industry. Being an independent researcher gave me the freedom to pursue a topic that I saw a need for in industry. Of course, I'm biased by my experiences, but I do think we would make more practical contributions to industry if all PhD candidates had to gain industry experience before enrolling in their research program.
  - senel 3y ago
    I started my PhD last year and was interested in working with this PI in his lab. My bad maybe but I never contacted anyone in his lab about their experience. When I got here I realized the members of the lab are almost all petite white women. A common reason why they’re doing their PhD in this lab? The PI saw something in them and thought they were special when they were undergraduates. To top it off, most of them are doing projects predetermined by the PI for their dissertation. Goes without saying, I intend to work with another professor but still very disheartening to see.
  - Fomite 3y ago
    I did my PhD directly after my bachelors (technically I had a semester between them but close enough), and I was given a huge amount of freedom and independence in crafting my research topic, and my career is, by and large, indistinguishable from my colleagues who had more experience before coming in.
shoo 3y ago
see also: Jeff Schmidt's book Disciplined Minds > In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identity of the individual, as is graduate school, where professionals are trained. He shows that professional work is inherently political, and that professionals are hired to subordinate their own vision and maintain strict "ideological discipline." > The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy. https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/
- nradov 3y ago
  And yet the majority of people with real political power in business and government have some sort of advanced degree. There's no guarantee that completing professional education will allow you to contribute to society and add meaning to your life but it surely increases the odds. The rest is up to you.
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  Sure is a good reason to start a startup!
  - senel 3y ago
    That’s what I’m doing in addition to a PhD. Even then, if my idea is really good, I know I’ll have to fight copyright trolls, or imitators, and the like. Life is a challenge man. All I want is to help people and make an impact but I find you need to be f-ing resilient.
whatever1 3y ago
An even worse question to a PhD student is: "When are you finishing your PhD?"
- GianFabien 3y ago
  Every time somebody asks about finishing, the PhD student's mental health gets worse by another notch.
- ergocoder 3y ago
  I still remember the story from my friend where his professor died and caused a delay to his final thesis for more than 2 years. He hated that question, but he had a perfect reason for a delay. At the end, his PhD took 7 years, and he said that wasn't bad. lol Phd students need a union. The characteristics of the job very much need it. Low pay. High switching cost. Success depends on a single person mostly (your prof).
Kirr 3y ago
The study is based on a web questionnaire, answered by 589 out of 2552 Ph.D. students. The mental health of the remaining 1963 students who did not take the survey is very likely to be in worse shape than of those who did. In discussion the authors say "Moreover, we want to emphasize the likely sample bias in our data. We recruited participants mainly via mailing lists and our project therefore probably has especially appealed to people who are already interested in health or aware of mental health issues." I guess this bias could be significant. I can't imagine that someone who is particularly stressed, depressed and sleep-deprived will pay attention to a mailing list message that has anything to do with mental health, or aks "How's your PhD going?". Personally, if I saw such email, I would close it and forget it as fast as I possibly could. Another problem is that people tend to lie to themselves about their mental health issues, telling themselves that it's not too bad. They would answer the survey more optimistically, as if this makes the issues go away. It takes a good capacity of self reflection to see the problems clearly, and the loss of such capacity often accompanies other mental health problems. Additionally, it takes a particularly trusing personality to discuss your health issues in a web survey. You never know how anonymous it all really is and where the collected data may end up eventually. I'm not sure how this correlates with mental health. The paranoid types will obviously be less trusting, but I guess a certain level of care when sharing your personal health data should be normal. In any case, this is another inevitable source of bias in survey-based data. These points don't invalidate the study, just suggest that it probably underestimates the real prevalence of mental health issues.
- Fomite 3y ago
  I would suggest it's possible that it overestimates things - online discussions of graduate school - on here, on Twitter, on Academia StackExchange, etc. have, in my experience, been oriented toward discussing negative experiences.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  > The mental health of the remaining 1963 students who did not take the survey is very likely to be in worse shape than of those who did. In discussion the authors say "Moreover, we want to emphasize the likely sample bias in our data. We recruited participants mainly via mailing lists and our project therefore probably has especially appealed to people who are already interested in health or aware of mental health issues." I would counter that it may go in the other direction too. The other group of people who have little interest in the topic of mental health are those who are already doing really well. It's a non-problem for them, so why would they engage?
photochemsyn 3y ago
For any young person contemplating a graduate program who is also interested in technology and science (ie HN reader), the only reason to do that is if you gain access to tools and materials and knowledge that are unavailable anywhere else. This means cutting-edge research labs in whatever discipline you're interested in, opportunities to travel abroad to other research centers, affiliations with National Labs or NASA's JPL, Stanford SLAC, etc. Also, they should be paying you enough to cover expenses and tuition, paying for it yourself or heaven forbid taking out more loans is not how it's supposed to work. Of course, you'll have to have put in the work and be at the top of your class to have much hope of getting such offers, plus get some good recommendations from your undergrad teachers, and have done a fair amount of technical work on an independent thesis or as a research lab assistant or some such. Also, you have to vet your prospective PI's lab very carefully to make sure they're not a fraudster or a manipulative sociopath. Not as uncommon a situation as you might expect. You also might just end up working as someone's underpaid lab tech for six years and while you get the PhD at the end of it, nobody will ever even cite your research and you'll probably regret the experience (in industry, you might have been into a six-figure salary and well on your way career-wise by that point, while learning more real-work skills at the same time). If you're doing it for vanity reasons or because it's expected best option is to bail on the whole thing and go get a job in industry, same if you find yourself in some crap lab run by a shyster PI. You can easily end up overworked, underpaid and with nothing much to show for it in the end.
ls612 3y ago
I’m doing a PhD in Economics right now and it’s not too stressful at this point when I’m just working on research. But my first two years when I needed to take classes and pass exams and then Covid happened they were some of the worst times of my life. I don’t know how much of that is just how our university responded to the virus though. I guess I got through that grinder (only a little more than half of us did) in the end but now my experience is completely the opposite to what I’m seeing from others in this thread. Maybe it’s just that engineering is different.
killjoywashere 3y ago
I'm starting to think that there's an intrinsic challenge with young people being vulnerable to depression. They are thinking hard, trying to figure out what they're going to do, having all sorts of "firsts". Oppenheimer was apparently quite moody, more so when he was younger. There's an especially stark moment in American Prometheus where he unintelligbly screams, seemingly out of nowhere, and throws his luggage down a staircase, putting a woman on the stairs at mortal risk. His parents traveled to Europe to attend to him. His daughter committed suicide. As did a lover of his. I certainly have dark spells. When I was younger, I coped by withdrawing. Now, in my 40s, leading teams executing missions, I can't withdraw, it's very much "Hello darkness, my old friend". Charles Bukowski has become a favorite author. Typing question stems into Google is far more therapeutic than browsing social media. Talking with a friend is more helpful than a therapist. Exercise, similarly. Talking with a friend while riding a bike is positively curative. Life sucks, then you die. Stop and smell the roses. Shadenfreude isn't all bad. Etc.
a_bonobo 3y ago
As an ex-academic, this isn't a secret. The mental health of the entire sector is in shambles, see https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01708-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01708-4 The Nature article and OP's article identify one culprit: poor supervision. I have a shit-list of awful supervisors that I try to steer potential students away from. Universities know that these people are awful but do nothing: in some cases I personally know, the Vice-Chancellor of the university and the toxic supervisors are best buddies. Case in point: Alan Cooper, international ancient DNA expert, was fired after a long battle because he was so incredibly toxic. He just got hired by another university! https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02147-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02147-x Academia has no interest in weeding out its most bad members. So I, and many others, left.
DoctorMckay101 3y ago
Tbh, the only reason I am crawling myself through a PhD is that I want to be a professor. Maybe in the USA this is almost unachievable, not to mention you will probably have to get an academic tenure too. But where I live (northern Spain), mainly in engineering, getting a PhD almost always ensures the opportunity for an academic tenure and a professor position. We are still growing our universities' numbers and new professors are needed every year. Would I be paid triple what I get now outside academia for my expertise? Yeah. But teaching is my passion so that balances out. Maybe I'll get out for a few years after I change my credentials from Mr. to Dr., just so I can afford a house, but I will come back to academia no doubt.
- awesomeMilou 3y ago
  Insane. I'm a student in Germany, at a university of applied sciences. With a PhD you can become a tenured professor here after a while of being a guest lecturer, but the uni is always looking. To me though it feels like the very large majority of professors actually loathe teaching and would much rather be elsewhere, i.e. researching independently.
mlacademe 3y ago
I wish people would stop discussing academia as a single experience. The variability between labs and programs is enormous and depends almost entirely on the PI. There are lots of toxic, stressful companies with poor leadership in competitive fields, but I wouldn't say that "industry is terrible choice" or some other sweeping generalization. People can leave a bad company and still find a great fit somewhere else, just as people can leave bad academic labs and join a better one en route to a successful career. IME, most of the toxic traits ascribed to academics may be sufficient for success, but they are not necessary. There are highly successful academics who go against all the stereotypes of publish or perish, overwork, or poor management skills.
duckhelmet 3y ago
I saw another report where asking the students to keep a journal monitoring their mental health caused stress.

120 points by luplex 3y ago

I think the only reason I was able to get through my PhD was because I am used to the work culture and expectations. After going into the industry in a relatively healthy and good company, I realized just how much stress I had and how bad it was in academia. In a way, the grinder serves as a test of willpower and discipline and those who could persevere through it can say they have the mental fortitude to handle stress and still achieve results despite adverse circumstances. Whenever I am kinda stressed out, I recall my time in school and it gives me something similar to "I have been through worse, I can make this work". On the other hand, I tell everyone who bothers to ask that no, a PhD is not worth it. Get a master and go to work. Or better, get a BS and make the company sponsor that master degree. That PhD will drain both your life and energy and once you got it, you will still need to compete against people of your level. Nothing changes except a permanent mental scar.

leaveitalone 3y ago
As a solid B student denied access to a PhD, folks that get PhDs for business reasons really bug me. Especially if they then go on to complain that it was hard. You don't realise how much some of us want to do research but can't get into academia because other, smarter people take the spots for prestige or money. Like, go away and just work on wall street if you're not interested in doing actual science.
- maxmalkav 3y ago
  The main complain in my environment (composed by both doctors and dropouts) is not about "it being hard" but "it being disappointing", specially when you are interested in doing actual science but you find that will be a small part of the process and many times not as rewarding as expected. You add department politics, personal differences with supervisors or the whole publishing business to the mix and it can get really ugly really fast.
  - leaveitalone 3y ago
    Yeah, but I do wonder how much of the reason you're experiencing that is because a lot of the people who make it miserable are there for the wrong reasons?
- vector_spaces 3y ago
  I'm sorry that you were denied access, gatekeeping is real, especially in STEM fields. I just want to offer that not everyone doing a PhD is doing so for reasons of money or prestige, and not all of them are coming from money or prestige. And the gatekeeping doesn't end once you get in, either. If anything it intensifies the further along you get, and by orders of magnitude the more your circumstances don't parse to something like {age = <30, marital_status = single, kids = false, parental_income = upper_class | middle_class, parental_support = true, needs_to_work_to_survive = false, parent_has_bachelors = true}
  - leaveitalone 3y ago
    I'm not sure it was gate keeping, I think there just weren't enough spots and my grades weren't as good as my competitors. Just wish the ones who didn't want to do it didn't bother so that more spots for us lesser graded people could have got in.
    - lumiukko 3y ago
      But even the grades are highly contextual. I am unfamiliar with how much they vary across the US, but usually grades depend a lot on the university itself and the professors teaching or grading the courses. The prestige of the university may be taken into account as well. Perhaps it wasn't possible to go to a "better" university, due to financial or simply personal reasons. Diversity is a really important aspect in building PhD cohorts and research teams - only choosing the best candidates based on grades introduces a bad bias that may even exacerbate the situation.
- ray__ 3y ago
  Not criticizing your take, just curious–grades and GPA have never been a primary factor for any of the PhD admissions committees that I've been on or exposed to. Usually other factors like research experience, letters of rec, and other personal experiences easily outweigh grades, especially if they're just Bs (very low grades would be an issue). Where are your B grades affecting your grad school applications?
  - leaveitalone 3y ago
    It was 20 years ago now, and you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average. This was in Ontario, Canada.
    - clipsy 3y ago
      > you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average Then no one "took your spot."
      - leaveitalone 3y ago
        Hi clipsy, it wasn't a cut off, it was just that there were enough people with higher grades taking the spots. If some of those people didn't want to be there and didn't take the spots that they earned, I'm sure they'd have reduced the entry requirements. Best of luck in your future endeavours.
        clipsy 3y ago
        Apologies for my misinterpretation; I can't honestly say I agree with your overall point of view but my objection was misguided.
- pokerface_86 3y ago
  [dead]
georgeburdell 3y ago
For me, the biggest drawback was doing all of the life things later. I graduated at 27, which is on the earlier end, then met my partner a year later, got married 2 years after that, bought a house 2 years after that, and then 2 years after that finally felt settled enough to have our first child (second was born 3 years later). Money was usually gating each step. We’re going to be pushing 70 before our children have children, if they take the same path.
- TotalCrackpot 3y ago
  Do you have a mortgage on the house or is it actually yours?
  - lumost 3y ago
    Buying a house without a mortgage is something available to a privileged few. Even if the option is available, it’s arguably unwise until you have to prioritize cash flow in your retirement.
- lumiukko 3y ago
  Are you aware of how privileged you are?
  - tomrod 3y ago
    When discussing with someone, proper manners enlightens a discussant to avoid painting them into a proverbial corner, since such is a negative interaction. From what I read, the person worked their tush off to get through a graduate program, then pushed for more money in a career. What aspect of this do you find privileging? Working their tush off? Pushing for opportunities? A small set of comments online tells one nothing about the background of a person, unless one actively looks for dog whistles and shibboleths.
    - lumiukko 3y ago
      It appeared they rant about how "doing all the things in life later" was the biggest drawback and continues to contradict the point by providing a timeline that places them at 33yo with all of the listed life goals achieved, starting with a graduation (I assume by the context, with a PhD, at 27). Some of such life goals are not even achievable for some. It sounds like a simple attempt to humble-brag. Assuming that they worked their tush off or pushed for opportunities also sounds coming from some privileged background, as it seems to assume that hard work and proper initiative would be sufficient in achieving such things, while for some people the first guard is already getting the necessary elementary education, while being in a stable and safe environment.
bshep 3y ago
So i did a masters in engineering(3yrs), worked for 2 years then went into med school (4yrs) and finished residency (3yrs) in the same time a friend of mine did a PHD in engineering… I was shocked when i found out he had just finished the PHD when i was graduating residency.
- make3 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - AlexSW 3y ago
    Presumably that the opportunity cost can be rather high.
- dfit99 3y ago
  Just curious, what inspired you to pursue medicine. I have been a SDE at a FAANG with 7 years of experience, but I am curious in maybe pivoting into medicine or at least combining the two fields. I have been feeling extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and was hoping pursuing medicine would give me some renewed passion.
  - 2snakes 3y ago
    You'll need to exhibit character like servant leadership to do well as a doctor.
    - 2snakes 3y ago
      And by that I mean not burning out. The demands on a M.D. are intense. At least from what I know of the ones I’ve talked to.
  - Arch-TK 3y ago
    I've dealt with extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and changed professions (albeit from software to information security) and after years I am again facing the same issues. I feel like there may be deeper problems here. In retrospect, while a career change hasn't damaged my career prospects, (on the contrary, it seems like I am probably more employable) I certainly don't have as much experience in either field as I would have if I had just stuck to one (although, through diligence, I have kept on top of my software skills, at least in my particular set of niches). As such, I can't necessarily recommend pursuing this type of solution to your particular problem (although medicine definitely seems distinctly different to tech so maybe it WILL solve the problem). I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe consider other options such as trying to completely understand the root cause for your dissatisfaction and extreme boredom. Believe me, I know this isn't easy, but at this point I am at a loss for other options and feel like I must figure out exactly what causes me to feel like this in order to avoid having this happen a third time.
zwaps 3y ago
I went from finishing my PhD straight into consulting and I am happy about the reduced stress and better work hours
twelve40 3y ago
Several startups back, I worked for a pompous boss, ex-Goldman-VP, who told me that people who get masters are worse programmers, especially if it's from a better school than their bachelor's. You'll be surprised how many nutty biases people have out there.
- totoglazer 3y ago
  Isn’t this a pretty universally held opinion?
  - sgillen 3y ago
    I haven’t seen this bias personally, what is the thought process behind it? If they were any good they would just have gotten a job or something?
    - totoglazer 3y ago
      Exactly. The cynical view: If you were any good you wouldn’t need the master’s degree. If you were good and wanted to learn more you’d do a PhD. But you didn’t learn what you were supposed to in undergrad, or could not get/do a job, or need a visa. So you paid a bunch of money to some school that wouldn’t let you into undergrad or a PhD, but will take your cash for a full fare professional masters degree mill. I’ve seen this in industry and in academia.
      - wink 3y ago
        See my other comment, would be fascinating to know if the general perception has changed in countries where the Bachelor's + Master's system has not be the norm forever, i.e. 10-15y ago I knew no one who only did a Bachelor's, then a few started doing that in Computer Science, but still kinda rare. Maybe it's different now. (Of course the degrees still being basically free compared to the US makes a huge difference if you're willing to stay another year or two..)
        3y ago
082349872349872 3y ago
> make the company sponsor that master degree Just a note that I jumped from academia to industry last century, and even then although my advisor and department (science) were horrified at the thought of aiming for anything less than a doctorate (masters? that's a consolation degree!), when I went to talk with the Dean (engineering) he gave me exactly the same advice: if you want a degree, get your company to pay for it.
- throwaway9870 3y ago
  What is your degree in? Because when I got a PhD in EE it was covered by either being a Research or Teaching Assistant. What school/dept would suggest aiming for anything less than a PhD as horrifying? Most students go that path.
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    Planetary science.
yodsanklai 3y ago
> Nothing changes except a permanent mental scar. That's a very broad generalization. Everybody has a different experience, depending on the field, their advisor, their lab, their skills, their personality and so on... To me, a PhD was pretty much like any other job. The last couple of months were bit harder because of the final deadline, but nothing drastic when you're young. My current job in industry is more stressful overall. What sucked for me was after the PhD, being an academic, but it's another story.
- Fomite 3y ago
  Indeed. For me, my PhD was eye-opening in that it was the first opportunity to work the way I wanted to work, and realizing how much more productive I could be that way.
  - Balgair 3y ago
    What field?
    - Fomite 3y ago
      Epidemiology
blueprint 3y ago
on behalf of the world i would like to express thanks to all scientists who have borne personal costs to advance our understanding and life quality wherever it really has done so
fsckboy 3y ago
a lot of what you describe in terms of work culture, expectations, stress, grinder, test of willpower and discipline... is pretty much how high achieving students who suicide describe their lives. So, it's not fortitude, it's other supportive elements of one's emotional life that get one through it.

peachypeach 3y ago

Honestly it really just seems like the world’s PhD programs are designed to ritually haze students and sort them into academic society based on unsustainable and barely acceptable expectations. I do not have a PhD but all my friends who do (save one) have expressed that they would rather have done something else with the time and resources it took to get theirs. Really sad. My cousin is a Psych professor at an Ivy League and he says that in his first class of the semester he tells everyone getting PhDs they will likely be taking antidepressants by the time they finish -and- that probably all of their professors are already taking them. Chilling honestly.

78124781 3y ago
"Honestly it really just seems like the world’s PhD programs are designed to ritually haze students and sort them into academic society based on unsustainable and barely acceptable expectations." This is accurate. It's very hard to explain to people who haven't been through a PhD program the kinds of expectations that are placed on students (example: highly influential profs telling an incoming cohort that their expectations were "all of you should get a top-20 job"). Those who do not "make it" are spoken of in hushed tones as if they died and even those who go on to great industry jobs are considered failures of some degree. Many of those who "make it" and get those vaunted prestigious TT jobs are also desperately depressed in many cases (at least up through getting tenure, but even afterward the whole experience seems scarring). This seems to select for incredibly dedicated and usually quite intelligent, but also very obsessive and emotionally fragile people to finally make it through into permanent employment in academia. They then often have similar expectations for their grad students to do the same as they did, even if they claim on social media to be "caring" and such.
- 2snakes 3y ago
  Yeah, such is the effect of "jigsaw puzzling" hundreds of papers to get a feel for a field. One had better be really interested to come into dialogue with others' observations, and not have it be trite. Philosophically, scientific idealism instead of materialism is one possible way forward as the sense/relationship of self-other evolves.
3y ago

TotalCrackpot 3y ago

Imagine that students used to be very active in various grassroot political movements, and these days they cannot organize themselves to do some huge protest, stall every university lesson, not grade papers and finally get some huge reforms that would help them and the rest of the faculty. Unfortunate, this probably happens because people who do PhD are not actually very assertive on their own and they have very impaired cooperation skills.

shikshake 3y ago
> people who do PhD are not actually very assertive on their own and they have very impaired cooperation skills Where exactly are you pulling this from? That has not been my experience, both from my research lab and from other students I've met at a variety of conferences.
- TotalCrackpot 3y ago
  Why they don't organize, do a mass protest and get better treatment from the system?
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    They do organize, PhDs at my uni (grad students in general) have their own union which negotiates contracts, benefits and minimum wages. The issue is that there's only so much they can do given their position as people more dependent on the system than the system is on them. Especially when adding in how different PhD programs and funding can be between departments or even within deparments.
  - shikshake 3y ago
    Because their work does not directly financially support the university in the short-term, so any forms of protest negatively affect their own advisors while the institution feels very little impact. There are still student unions and this is an ongoing discussion in the academic community. Again, why do you claim phd students are "not assertive" with "impaired cooperation skills"? Or is that just a personal judgement on your part?

marcodiego 3y ago

My father died (heart attack) while writing his master thesis, 2001. In the closer family we all attribute this to stress during the period. He was a professor at a university, maintained a farm and often traveled to São Paulo for meetings with his advisor and classes. It was a common sight for me to go sleep while he was still writing, wake up and see him still writing. He had a coffee, went to the farm, come back home, lecture at the university and went back to writing again. When he could, he went to São Paulo. I went somewhat the same route. I finished my master degree but I gave up doctorate when I started to feel the impact it had in my health. Not only mentally but also physically. My girlfriend is now also somewhat on the same route. Fortunately she will finish her doctorate soon and will still be alive, but I see many of the symptoms of my father in her.

nradov 3y ago
I'm sorry that you lost your father. But stress alone doesn't cause heart attacks. Most likely there was some other medical issue. https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/risk-factors/stress https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/risk-factors/stres...

shikshake 3y ago

The responses on this thread from january did a good job of displaying the variety of phd experiences HN users have had: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34449626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34449626 From these and my own experiences, the results of this study are not surprising but I'm happy to see some published work on it.

beoberha 3y ago

I only have a Bachelor’s but work at a large tech company where a good portion of the technical leadership have PhDs. I can’t imagine deciding to just go for a PhD right out of undergrad. In the grand scheme of things, you know nothing after a 4 year degree. I could not fathom finding a topic on which you are truly passionate and decide to dedicate the next 5-7 years of your life studying it. After 6 years in industry, I have a much more solid foundation and idea of what I want to focus on for the rest of my career. But at this point, getting a PhD is not remotely a possibility for numerous reasons. It’s an interesting conundrum and I see a lot of PhDs who advise against getting one. But I will always have a small pang of jealousy towards those that have one.

GianFabien 3y ago
People doing a PhD immediately after their bachelors or masters are used as cheap workers by the PIs to do some subset of their main research, to write papers and TA. I went back to do my PhD after more than 20 years in industry. Being an independent researcher gave me the freedom to pursue a topic that I saw a need for in industry. Of course, I'm biased by my experiences, but I do think we would make more practical contributions to industry if all PhD candidates had to gain industry experience before enrolling in their research program.
- senel 3y ago
  I started my PhD last year and was interested in working with this PI in his lab. My bad maybe but I never contacted anyone in his lab about their experience. When I got here I realized the members of the lab are almost all petite white women. A common reason why they’re doing their PhD in this lab? The PI saw something in them and thought they were special when they were undergraduates. To top it off, most of them are doing projects predetermined by the PI for their dissertation. Goes without saying, I intend to work with another professor but still very disheartening to see.
- Fomite 3y ago
  I did my PhD directly after my bachelors (technically I had a semester between them but close enough), and I was given a huge amount of freedom and independence in crafting my research topic, and my career is, by and large, indistinguishable from my colleagues who had more experience before coming in.

shoo 3y ago

see also: Jeff Schmidt's book Disciplined Minds > In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identity of the individual, as is graduate school, where professionals are trained. He shows that professional work is inherently political, and that professionals are hired to subordinate their own vision and maintain strict "ideological discipline." > The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy. https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/

nradov 3y ago
And yet the majority of people with real political power in business and government have some sort of advanced degree. There's no guarantee that completing professional education will allow you to contribute to society and add meaning to your life but it surely increases the odds. The rest is up to you.
theGnuMe 3y ago
Sure is a good reason to start a startup!
- senel 3y ago
  That’s what I’m doing in addition to a PhD. Even then, if my idea is really good, I know I’ll have to fight copyright trolls, or imitators, and the like. Life is a challenge man. All I want is to help people and make an impact but I find you need to be f-ing resilient.

whatever1 3y ago

An even worse question to a PhD student is: "When are you finishing your PhD?"

GianFabien 3y ago
Every time somebody asks about finishing, the PhD student's mental health gets worse by another notch.
ergocoder 3y ago
I still remember the story from my friend where his professor died and caused a delay to his final thesis for more than 2 years. He hated that question, but he had a perfect reason for a delay. At the end, his PhD took 7 years, and he said that wasn't bad. lol Phd students need a union. The characteristics of the job very much need it. Low pay. High switching cost. Success depends on a single person mostly (your prof).

Kirr 3y ago

The study is based on a web questionnaire, answered by 589 out of 2552 Ph.D. students. The mental health of the remaining 1963 students who did not take the survey is very likely to be in worse shape than of those who did. In discussion the authors say "Moreover, we want to emphasize the likely sample bias in our data. We recruited participants mainly via mailing lists and our project therefore probably has especially appealed to people who are already interested in health or aware of mental health issues." I guess this bias could be significant. I can't imagine that someone who is particularly stressed, depressed and sleep-deprived will pay attention to a mailing list message that has anything to do with mental health, or aks "How's your PhD going?". Personally, if I saw such email, I would close it and forget it as fast as I possibly could. Another problem is that people tend to lie to themselves about their mental health issues, telling themselves that it's not too bad. They would answer the survey more optimistically, as if this makes the issues go away. It takes a good capacity of self reflection to see the problems clearly, and the loss of such capacity often accompanies other mental health problems. Additionally, it takes a particularly trusing personality to discuss your health issues in a web survey. You never know how anonymous it all really is and where the collected data may end up eventually. I'm not sure how this correlates with mental health. The paranoid types will obviously be less trusting, but I guess a certain level of care when sharing your personal health data should be normal. In any case, this is another inevitable source of bias in survey-based data. These points don't invalidate the study, just suggest that it probably underestimates the real prevalence of mental health issues.

Fomite 3y ago
I would suggest it's possible that it overestimates things - online discussions of graduate school - on here, on Twitter, on Academia StackExchange, etc. have, in my experience, been oriented toward discussing negative experiences.
_aavaa_ 3y ago
> The mental health of the remaining 1963 students who did not take the survey is very likely to be in worse shape than of those who did. In discussion the authors say "Moreover, we want to emphasize the likely sample bias in our data. We recruited participants mainly via mailing lists and our project therefore probably has especially appealed to people who are already interested in health or aware of mental health issues." I would counter that it may go in the other direction too. The other group of people who have little interest in the topic of mental health are those who are already doing really well. It's a non-problem for them, so why would they engage?

photochemsyn 3y ago

For any young person contemplating a graduate program who is also interested in technology and science (ie HN reader), the only reason to do that is if you gain access to tools and materials and knowledge that are unavailable anywhere else. This means cutting-edge research labs in whatever discipline you're interested in, opportunities to travel abroad to other research centers, affiliations with National Labs or NASA's JPL, Stanford SLAC, etc. Also, they should be paying you enough to cover expenses and tuition, paying for it yourself or heaven forbid taking out more loans is not how it's supposed to work. Of course, you'll have to have put in the work and be at the top of your class to have much hope of getting such offers, plus get some good recommendations from your undergrad teachers, and have done a fair amount of technical work on an independent thesis or as a research lab assistant or some such. Also, you have to vet your prospective PI's lab very carefully to make sure they're not a fraudster or a manipulative sociopath. Not as uncommon a situation as you might expect. You also might just end up working as someone's underpaid lab tech for six years and while you get the PhD at the end of it, nobody will ever even cite your research and you'll probably regret the experience (in industry, you might have been into a six-figure salary and well on your way career-wise by that point, while learning more real-work skills at the same time). If you're doing it for vanity reasons or because it's expected best option is to bail on the whole thing and go get a job in industry, same if you find yourself in some crap lab run by a shyster PI. You can easily end up overworked, underpaid and with nothing much to show for it in the end.

ls612 3y ago

I’m doing a PhD in Economics right now and it’s not too stressful at this point when I’m just working on research. But my first two years when I needed to take classes and pass exams and then Covid happened they were some of the worst times of my life. I don’t know how much of that is just how our university responded to the virus though. I guess I got through that grinder (only a little more than half of us did) in the end but now my experience is completely the opposite to what I’m seeing from others in this thread. Maybe it’s just that engineering is different.

killjoywashere 3y ago

I'm starting to think that there's an intrinsic challenge with young people being vulnerable to depression. They are thinking hard, trying to figure out what they're going to do, having all sorts of "firsts". Oppenheimer was apparently quite moody, more so when he was younger. There's an especially stark moment in American Prometheus where he unintelligbly screams, seemingly out of nowhere, and throws his luggage down a staircase, putting a woman on the stairs at mortal risk. His parents traveled to Europe to attend to him. His daughter committed suicide. As did a lover of his. I certainly have dark spells. When I was younger, I coped by withdrawing. Now, in my 40s, leading teams executing missions, I can't withdraw, it's very much "Hello darkness, my old friend". Charles Bukowski has become a favorite author. Typing question stems into Google is far more therapeutic than browsing social media. Talking with a friend is more helpful than a therapist. Exercise, similarly. Talking with a friend while riding a bike is positively curative. Life sucks, then you die. Stop and smell the roses. Shadenfreude isn't all bad. Etc.

a_bonobo 3y ago

As an ex-academic, this isn't a secret. The mental health of the entire sector is in shambles, see https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01708-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01708-4 The Nature article and OP's article identify one culprit: poor supervision. I have a shit-list of awful supervisors that I try to steer potential students away from. Universities know that these people are awful but do nothing: in some cases I personally know, the Vice-Chancellor of the university and the toxic supervisors are best buddies. Case in point: Alan Cooper, international ancient DNA expert, was fired after a long battle because he was so incredibly toxic. He just got hired by another university! https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02147-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02147-x Academia has no interest in weeding out its most bad members. So I, and many others, left.

DoctorMckay101 3y ago

Tbh, the only reason I am crawling myself through a PhD is that I want to be a professor. Maybe in the USA this is almost unachievable, not to mention you will probably have to get an academic tenure too. But where I live (northern Spain), mainly in engineering, getting a PhD almost always ensures the opportunity for an academic tenure and a professor position. We are still growing our universities' numbers and new professors are needed every year. Would I be paid triple what I get now outside academia for my expertise? Yeah. But teaching is my passion so that balances out. Maybe I'll get out for a few years after I change my credentials from Mr. to Dr., just so I can afford a house, but I will come back to academia no doubt.

awesomeMilou 3y ago
Insane. I'm a student in Germany, at a university of applied sciences. With a PhD you can become a tenured professor here after a while of being a guest lecturer, but the uni is always looking. To me though it feels like the very large majority of professors actually loathe teaching and would much rather be elsewhere, i.e. researching independently.

mlacademe 3y ago

I wish people would stop discussing academia as a single experience. The variability between labs and programs is enormous and depends almost entirely on the PI. There are lots of toxic, stressful companies with poor leadership in competitive fields, but I wouldn't say that "industry is terrible choice" or some other sweeping generalization. People can leave a bad company and still find a great fit somewhere else, just as people can leave bad academic labs and join a better one en route to a successful career. IME, most of the toxic traits ascribed to academics may be sufficient for success, but they are not necessary. There are highly successful academics who go against all the stereotypes of publish or perish, overwork, or poor management skills.

duckhelmet 3y ago

I saw another report where asking the students to keep a journal monitoring their mental health caused stress.