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FedEx Accused of Largest Odometer Rollback Fraud in History with Used Vans

491 points by cwwc 3y ago

LinuxBender 3y ago
and then selling them at auction with 100,000 ... However, their real mileage was sometimes as much as four times the odometer readout These numbers matter more here. The Cummins/Allison engine/drive-train in these vehicles are otherwise good for 1 million miles before rebuild on average until they are used as delivery trucks. The constant stopping and starting used as delivery trucks cuts that number down to around 480k miles. So they are selling vehicles that will require engine and transmission rebuilds in less than 80k miles. That's very shady. The engine rebuilds are usually around $10k same as a refurbished engine and the transmission rebuild is around $3k. That does not count the cost to install them.
- bagacrap 3y ago
  HN never fails to deliver someone who really sounds like they know what they're talking about. Internet doesn't really corroborate these numbers afaict but hey
  - jprete 3y ago
    This isn’t the kind of information that has ever been easy to find on the Internet.
  - uncletaco 3y ago
    Well what does the internet say? Do you have links or context?
    - bagacrap 3y ago
      I don't really care what the answer is, I just decided to do a tiny bit of my own research to determine whether this confident sounding stranger was right or just sounded right.
  - tredre3 3y ago
    I did a few google searches and even asked chatgpt, it's surprisingly hard to get a definitive answer. The consensus seems to be that after 500,000 miles the Cummins engine will either be dead or need to be rebuilt. 400,000 miles is considered high mileage that few achieve. So on the surface it seems like you might be right that LinuxBender was wrong. But he did sound quite knowledgeable, didn't he? So I still can't tell one way or another. Ah the beauty of the Internet :).
    - jaclaz 3y ago
      The issue is that "Cummins engine" is very generic, there are tens of different models, different bore x stroke, different power delivered, mounted on tens of different vehicles (with different weights and suited for different uses). Even the specific van/truck model Freightliner MT45 seemingly can mount different models of Cummins engines. Unless you find data for the specific model of engine and truck it is difficult to get valid numbers. Generally speaking, for heavy trucks and large engines, the 600,000 km (or 400,000 miles) is the mileage where an overhaul (not a whole rebuild) is needed. In a professional use, unless it is used in shifts, a truck will probably make 40,000 miles per year, so it should happen around 10 years age. The most common engine on the Freightliner MT45 seems to be the Cummins 6.7, which should be a little more resistant than the older 5.9, both can do 500,000 miles and more, in the "right hands" and with "proper maintenance". I doubt that used in a fleet (possibly "proper maintenance", but likely a lot of "wrong hands") it can reach 400,000 miles or more, and it makes sense for a fleet manager to sell at an auction the vehicles that are expected to need a large overhaul or a rebuild soon, in the article they talk about the fleet renovation happening around 350,000 miles.
      - LinuxBender 3y ago
        The consumer versions last half as long but that is a fun rabbit hole to go down, an adventure into the oil industry lobbyists, emission controls, etc... but it's a taboo topic here on HN. I do not try to red pill anyone and rather let them venture down the rabbit holes and do their own testing where it is safer to do so.
    - AngryData 3y ago
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  There's so much more than just the engine, though. I'm dealing with a bunch of aging issues on a car right now. A lot of this stuff won't even show for a few years down the road. * Shocks and struts wear out * Catalytic converters are a semi-wear item * In winter states that use salt, rust absolutely destroys things. I've had the exhaust system rust through on all of my vehicles (simply happens with age). * Seat cushions, steering wheel, and other high touch surfaces wear. Likely not an issue _now_, but means a few years down the road, these things will be broken. * Engine accessories - belts, starters, alternators, pumps, etc. Everything is just a bit closer to it's failure point. ---- Most of these issues aren't particularly expensive on their own, but they add up. Further, your expected maintenance is wildly different.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    Salt (sodium chloride) is pretty rare anymore. It’s more expensive than another option. Liquid magnesium chloride is the goto in most states now, and you’ll be happy to know it’s even worse!
    - eatbitseveryday 3y ago
      Real table salt is never to be used as an ice melter on streets. “Salt” here is used in the chemical definition I would think.
      - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
        The UK uses 2 million tonnes of rock salt a year for road gritting, which is basically dirty table salt.
      - sgarman 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt It's still a mix often times but it's totally salt in some areas still.
      - randomdata 3y ago
        There is a salt mine up the road from me. The trucks start lining up for miles waiting for loads any time there is a winter storm expected. The only difference between that salt and table salt is that there is additional processing to the salt done when destined for table salt to ensure purity and shape. So, yes, they don't literally use table salt, but it is the same raw ingredient.
- dylan604 3y ago
  >The engine rebuilds are usually around $10k same as a refurbished engine What's the difference between a rebuilt engine and a refurbished engine?
  - LinuxBender 3y ago
    Effectively the same aside from time if you are waiting on yours to be rebuilt. One is the engine you have that needs to be rebuilt and the other was rebuilt because someone did a swap and now its inventory in a shop that sells refurbished engines. [Edit] Adding jaclaz's very good point that one might be able to save money rebuilding their own if it requires less parts.
    - throwaway173738 3y ago
      Some refurbished parts come with a short warranty as well which can help cut risk if the rebuild was done poorly. They come in crates from a factory so the people who did the work specialized and have probably seen all the potential problems.
      - LinuxBender 3y ago
        Agreed that is the direction I would go. The only reason I can think to wait on a rebuild would be if one knows/trusts the mechanic and/or they are having modifications done to the engine for cooling, turbo, fuel efficiency, brackets for different accessories like dual alternators, computer tuning after removing components from the engine, etc...
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    A rebuilt engine is your engine where (hopefully) all needed to be replaced parts were actually replaced (locally). A refurbished engine is another engine (identical to yours) where all needed to be replaced parts were (still hopefully) replaced. The difference is that (it really depends on a case by case basis) your engine might need less parts replaced and the replacement is done by your local mechanic (all in all it can cost less in some cases). With refurbished engines all parts in a given list are replaced, no matter their current condition, and the replacement is done by workers that usually do everyday exactly that. The cost of a refurbished engine (you give them back yours that they will refurbish for next customer) can be a little less (including transport costs) because the refurbisher has spare parts cheaper due to quantity and personnel is faster (because they do this specific work everyday and have all the proper tooling) but often it is very similar. Your advantages with a refurbished engine are that it is generally faster than a local rebuild, and usually you are offered some kind of warranty (which may not be the case for a local rebuild). For a company, it is a way to minimize the stop of the vehicle and to place some responsibilities to the external supplier.
- eschneider 3y ago
  I'm surprised they didn't get caught sooner. If it was _just_ an odometer rollback, it should have been easy to catch something being 'off' from a cursory inspection of the vehicle. The wear on things like driver seat bolsters is very different at 100K miles and 400K miles (and even at much lower mileage) and when stuff like that doesn't match the odometer readings, alarm bells should be going off.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Note that the lawsuit was filed back in 2017, so it seems to have been working its way through the legal system for a few years at this point.
    - xethos 3y ago
      That's actually a seperate lawsuit, unrelated to the class action in the headline.
      - justinclift 3y ago
        Oh thanks. My misunderstanding then. :)
        cududa 3y ago
        The original plaintiff in the 2017 lawsuit popped into the comments section of the parent article, and did quite an amusing "AMA" sort of thing there. He makes a great point by saying something like "I filed this lawsuit in 2017, which means they were made aware of this practice 6 years they're doing this, and are apparently still doing it." Interesting that the top comment on this thread now is cautioning skepticism on the claims.
- fredoralive 3y ago
  I did have a weird thought, in a organisation as big as FedEx, would they have a pool of spare engines to minimise downtime? You could get unlucky and get a can with an engine that's been through a few chassis and end up with an ECU that knows the engine has done 400k miles whilst the chassis has only done 180k? Although that's probably a mad theory, if there is hijinks it probably is the good old fashioned kind, probably from this 3rd party middleman rather than FedEx themselves though.
  - oasisbob 3y ago
    The value of having reliable vehicles probably outweighs the possible savings due to reactive deferred maintenance.
- dghughes 3y ago
  I had a 1/2 ton Dodge with a Cummins. The one thing you know or learn fast with a diesel is you change the fuel filter often. Diesel engines are nearly indestructible if the maintenance is done right at the very least the fuel filter.
  - yardie 3y ago
    I've seen a diesel pulled out from the bottom of the bay, scrubbed clean, and installed in a new boat. The old boat caught on fire and sank. The old common rail diesels are damn hard to kill. Diesels need 3 things: fuel, oil, and coolant. Do not ever skimp on those 3.
    - birdman3131 3y ago
      Air helps a tiny bit as well.
      - yardie 3y ago
        You don’t supply the air. The list are the things a diesel need from you the operator.
- themitigating 3y ago
  What about every other component in the car?
- daniel-cussen 3y ago
  [dead]
ourmandave 3y ago
Some comment said these were resold as completely refurbed food trucks so the Fedex connection is dubious at best.
- last_responder 3y ago
  They were refurbed AFTER they were sold by Fed-Ex . Not sure what your point is.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  The lawsuit states that a number of people from different states are making the same accusation. That the trucks were utilized by Fedex for nearly 200k miles after the odometer swap is a worthwhile indicator that Fedex was complicit.
  - sunk1st 3y ago
    If all sales were brokered by the same 3rd party then it doesn’t help us determine culpability.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      This seems to ignore that FedEx drove their altered odometers to ~200k miles.
      - delfinom 3y ago
        The problem is, it's not illegal to alter your odometer and drive it yourself. It is illegal not to report the odometer misreading in a sale. The real question is, who make the odometer change and where did the intentional or not breakdown happen on failure to report the odometer inaccuracy.
        WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
        > The real question is, who make the odometer change Better stated, I think, as who knew the odometers were changed out to zero reads, before the vehicles were then driven another ~200k miles. Trying to craft a scenario where no one at FedEx had any knowledge at all that their well used vehicles suddenly had zero miles seems like low-return effort. For an even better question, why undertake that specific project (at scale) except to perpetrate fraud?
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
For the how: The lawsuit accuses FedEx of replacing the odometers in many of its vans with new ones that read zero miles, using the vans for a bit longer after that Being born into a 5 digit odometer world and growing up around people who learned every way possible to suss out mileage - this seems nuts to me. How could they think that zero people would suspect and investigate an odometer swap? Past that, how could so few company mechanics notice a discrepancy between mileage and wear - that no whistleblowers came forward?
- jnwatson 3y ago
  Yeah this is such garden variety auto fraud.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- delfinom 3y ago
  Company mechanics don't give a fuck that's why, either they are underpaid and/or underpressure to get as many vehicles done each night as possible. (Read up on how the mechanics trade works in general and its pretty shit, mechanics are often paid on minimum wage + "commission" on amount of work rushed through). It's not a field that people are going to stick their necks out and make themselves unhirable either. In this case FedEx outsources the work to a fleet management services company to remove even more liability from themselves.
sunk1st 3y ago
A close reading of the article leaves room to doubt whether FedEx was complicit in the alleged scheme. I’m not surprised to see that FedEx denies the allegations. Given that there is another defendant in the lawsuit I suspect there is more to this story than what’s been presented here.
- habnds 3y ago
  not very much room... the companies weren't all that separate and fedex profited off the alleged fraud >>> FedEx started auctioning old vans off through its fleet company, Holman Fleet Leasing (also a defendant in the lawsuit). The lawsuit alleges that both FedEx and Holman intentionally replaced the odometers to artificially inflate the values of the vans, so they'd sell for higher prices at various auctions throughout the United States. Then, according to the accusations, both companies would split the profits.
  - sunk1st 3y ago
    The allegation is that both FedEx and Holman were involved, yes. If FedEx can produce an audit trail showing that the vehicles left FedEx facilities with true odometers then I don’t think Holman stands a chance.
    - unregistereddev 3y ago
      Or if FedEx can produce an audit trail indicating the odometers were faulty and had been replaced. A vehicle with 400,000 miles has seen a lot. If the dash gauges were replaced around 220,000 miles, then 180,000 miles have passed since then - and the new odometer will read 180,000. It is normal practice to replace a broken odometer with a new one. That is not fraudulent. However, when that vehicle is sold the seller is legally required to flag the title. A lot of liability depends on why the odometer was replaced, who transferred the title (does FedEx transfer the title to Holman before sending the vehicle to auction, or does Holman hold the title the entire time?), and whether the title was appropriately flagged as "Not actual mileage".
mdrzn 3y ago
"It isn't illegal to replace odometers and it isn't even illegal to sell vehicles with odometers that have inaccurate mileage readouts. However, to do so, a disclaimer needs to be made by the seller, indicating to the buyer that its mileage readout is inaccurate and that the odometer was replaced." How is it even legal? "You can lie but you have to admit to it".
- jabradoodle 3y ago
  If your odemeter malfunctions and you don't realise you may legitimately have no idea what the true value is.
- kgermino 3y ago
  Sometimes you need to replace the odometer (or the module it’s built into) and you can’t always update the new one with the correct value. Sometimes parts break and the odometer is no longer accurate, it’s reasonable to say you can still sell a car in that condition if you disclose the situation
- icegreentea2 3y ago
  Because you're not lying at that point? You've just told them that the odometer reading is wrong, and unless you can find some other way to backup your mileage claim, they'll just be priced as if they were nearly maxed out?
- rblatz 3y ago
  It’s called a True Mileage Unknown title brand. It significantly impacts the value of a vehicle.
- jnwatson 3y ago
  Odometers break and get replaced (and you can’t set the new one to the old value). Sometimes they get stuck. It isn’t lying if you say “this odometer is 40k low”.
  - LocalH 3y ago
    > and you can’t set the new one to the old value Perhaps this should be possible? If nothing else, it should technically be possible to hook it to a load and run the odometer up to what it should be. You'd have to be careful not to overshoot, since you can't reduce the value on an odometer if they're properly designed. It'd still be useful to denote "this vehicle has had the odometer replaced, but care was taken to ensure the odometer value is within +/- 1% of the authentic value" Of course, this is really only for mechanical-style odometers. Digital ones, I know almost nothing about, wouldn't surprise me if there is no "stored mileage" in such an odometer.
oefrha 3y ago
> When he sold the truck, his buyer hooked it up to a computer that told them the real mileage was around 400,000 miles. I’m not knowledgeable about odometers at all, but if it’s as easy as “hooking up to a computer” to get the real mileage, why don’t people do that when they buy the trucks?
- raincom 3y ago
  By 'hooking up to a computer', one tampers odometers in the first place. That's how leased cars' odometers are tampered by some lessees.
  - Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
    The OBD port can easily spit out a read only mileage reading which is not tampering with the recorded value in the ECU. The OBD port is supposed to be user accessible and usable by the end user and 3rd parties (at least in the EU) even though manufacturers are trying their hardest to put “non diagnostic data” behind their proprietary software and/or wireless comms. Reading the data from the OBD port isn’t (at least shouldn’t) be classed as tampering. One of the ways tampering happens on digital dashes that read the mileage from the ECU is by putting a interceptor in between the dash and the ECU as it’s easier than reprogramming the ECU. https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ
  - yetihehe 3y ago
    This comment was not clear. Odometer in car computer can be changed too. There exists special obd command to do this (when you need to replant ECU between engines), but you need to have a password (which is provided with "official" diagnostic computers/tools). If car has no mechanical odometer (most new passenger cars today don't), this is the only way to change odometer values.
    - fmntf 3y ago
      This is not how odometers are scammed. The EEPROM gets rewritten to zero, then you can increment the odometer to your preferred value via OBD/UDS. Please note that you can only increment the odometer without a specialized (authenticated) diagnostic session. FYI I do not reset odometers, I am on the other side, developing software for instrument clusters.
ryanmercer 3y ago
Doesn't surprise me, they didn't give me a cost of living increase for over a decade and new hires were making almost as much as I was when I quit after 15 and a half years (office job), along with about half the office quitting within a year.
jmclnx 3y ago
> Tom Layton of Henderson, Nevada first noticed FedEx's odometer rollbacks in 2017. Layton, who's been buying and selling trucks and vans for 36 years, bought a FedEx Freightliner truck with around 180,000 indicated miles. When he sold the truck, his buyer hooked it up to a computer that told them the real mileage was around 400,000 miles. And yet another reason to ensure "Right to Repair" Laws are passed and enforced. Right now, one state, I forgot which, was informed by the auto industry they will ignore the law. I do not know if enforcement has started yet.
- primer42 3y ago
  Massachusetts I think https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-not-to-comply-with-mass-right-to-repair-law/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-no...
  - bagacrap 3y ago
    Thanks for the link. Instructed by the federal government not to comply seems quite a bit different than what gp is implying. Why would legislators bother considering the full implications of their bills?
- sunk1st 3y ago
  We only know that “buyer hooked it up to his computer and said [something]” - how does that strengthen an argument for (or against) right to repair, exactly?
  - sp332 3y ago
    Car manufacturers are trying to lock out that kind of interface. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-not-to-comply-with-mass-right-to-repair-law/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-no...
llimos 3y ago
When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society? Maybe I'm naive but I think there used to be at least a modicum of self-restraint on this kind of thing. Sure, people always tried to make as much money as possible, but there used to be some limit somewhere - not because you'll get caught but because c'mon, we just don't do that! That seems to have now been totally lost.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  Because the cost of fraud is far too low and it's now factored into business plans. And no executive at FedEx will go to jail for this. When you can break the law for less than the profits you get for breaking the law, that's just got business sense.
  - IE6 3y ago
    > the cost of fraud is far too low > no executive will go to jail for this This seems to be the pervasive trend
- dylan604 3y ago
  >When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society? When were we not there?
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    Lots of little girls and boys are taught that and end up somewhere screaming "but that's not fair!" in the rain.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      And quickly realize they were lied to when they were taught things were fair to begin with, which reading between the lines argues that it wasn't fair to begin with. All of which to say, you just reiterated my point.
whartung 3y ago
Semi-related anecdote regarding this. This won’t happen with UPS delivery vans, as they have them custom made and scrap them at end of life. I assume for trademark purposes, among other things.
- h2odragon 3y ago
  Keeping outsiders from inspecting them may be a goal too. I hear they are at best a "rattletrap calamity" anymore.
mabbo 3y ago
All I can think is "why would you replace every odometer if you weren't committing fraud?". Like that costs money and time to do. Were they all broken and needed replacing? And if you aren't committing fraud and there's a reasonable reason to do this, why not do it just before sale? Why drive another 100k on them afterwards? It's just so dumb and obvious.
- unregistereddev 3y ago
  Some odometers have common problems. For several years Toyota's digital odometers had a bug that caused them to stop counting at 299,999 miles. Porsche's mechanical odometers from the late 1970's through the mid 1980's had a plastic gear that tended to strip out and cause them to stop counting at some random point. It is possible FedEx's odometers all came from the same supplier and all had a MTBF of around 300,000 miles - which would explain driving another 100k miles before selling the trucks when they reach 400,000 miles.
chriscappuccio 3y ago
I find this hard to believe. The claims of both lawsuits are basically the same. The FedEx routes are all independently owned. The route owners are responsible for fixing their vehicles. Parts get replaced constantly. Its a never ending mechanics job to serve these fleet vehicles.
j-bos 3y ago
Is anyone facing jail time for this historic fraud?
- activiation 3y ago
  No, because corporations are considered people that can't go to jail. They only get the benefits of being a person.
  - db48x 3y ago
    The phrase “corporations are people” is somewhat ambiguous. It does not mean that every corporation is a person, it means that corporations are _composed of_ people. (Think “soylent green is people”, if it helps you understand.) The people in a corporation have rights, and thus any action taken by a corporation may be an expression of those rights. A corporate press release has just as much protection from the first amendment as any other statement a person might make. The people in a corporation can and do get sent to jail, even if the corporation itself does not.
    - activiation 3y ago
      It's not ambiguous and i think that you misunderstood the law.
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      it means the corporation is literally a legal person: an identical but unincorporated organization would not be
SoftTalker 3y ago
I have doubts that we're getting an accurate story here, I know it's trendy to hate big companies but this seems like a really stupid thing to do and something you're likely to get caught doing if you're doing it on every truck. Anyone buying used delivery trucks knows they get driven all day every day until it's uneconomical for the owner to continue operating them. Hundreds of thousands of miles. It would be very unusual to see one for sale with under 200k miles, that's "just getting broken in" for trucks like this. I'm even surprised that these trucks have mechanical odometers. I havent's seen one in a passenger car in many years, they are all digital, rarely fail and (I assume) would be harder to tamper with.
- shiftpgdn 3y ago
  Depending on the manufacturer the digital odometers are even easier to tamper with. There are a dozen people on my local craigslist that will reset/rollback odometers for you for $100.
- bhouston 3y ago
  The article is dealing with a real lawsuit and it has many different members of the class action in multiple different states. They will have to prove their case in the court so it is unlikely that it is completely made up. There does seem to be a pattern of behavior here.
- delfinom 3y ago
  >I have doubts that we're getting an accurate story here, Well that's the magic of the court system, the filing of the lawsuit is to either get them to settle/admit wrongdoing or to force this to discovery. >I'm even surprised that these trucks have mechanical odometers. Freightliner vans aren't fancy hi-tech vehicles, they are utility vehicles. But there's no difference between mechanical and digital odometers here. If you swap a digital cluster, you end up swapping the odometer reading. Architecturally vehicles have seldom moved on from storing the reading in the cluster. It really becomes a question of where do you store the reading? A engine computer is more likely to be replaced due to an accident than the odometer in the car even though on many vehicles it will still track the mileage. >they are all digital, rarely fail and (I assume) would be harder to tamper with. Actually, in most cars they are absolutely tamperable over CAN or physical access. If I remember right, the Honda digital cluster even up to my 2021 just has a standard SPI flash chip that you can tamper with to change the odometer value.
floren 3y ago
> they're resold and repurposed for various purposes. "Allow myself to introduce... myself"
cm2012 3y ago
If its true I'm sure there will be a number of lawsuits. The existing court system can settle this kind of thing pretty well.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dredmorbius 3y ago
There was a brief discussion of this about five days ago, though well below the dupelicate-submission threshold, with only 5 comments: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36460395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36460395> From Jalopnik: "FedEx Odometer Fraud" <https://jalopnik.com/fedex-named-in-what-could-be-one-of-the-largest-odomete-1850570768 https://jalopnik.com/fedex-named-in-what-could-be-one-of-the...>
crhulls 3y ago
I'd encourage a bit more skepticism to this article. While this accusation could possibly be true, there are two things to keep in mind, which I am sharing having experience as a founder/CEO who has gone from startup to IPO: 1) This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want. And journalists go for clicks, so they amplify the sensationalism. It doesn't mean this is one of those, but a class action complaint should not just blindly be trusted. 2) There is a strong theme of "of course execs lie cheat steal at every turn" and I also think this narrative should be questioned. Ethics aside, the level of compliance in a public company is insanely high. Execs are already rich. To risk jailtime, which fraud can lead to, you'd need to see something more existential than slightly increasing margins on used van sales. I felt inclined to comment as I've been on the other end of articles like this, and it is astounding the level of mind reading people have done into my intent and actions on things that were factually just not true at all. I also truly would find it very difficult to commit a broad organizational fraud even if I wanted to and my company is only 500 people. If I had to make a prediction, the case is less black and white than it appears, and if there was fraud, it was probably committed at a non-executive level by the person whose P&L was directly tied to these resales. Or, it was done independently by the much smaller leasing company where this was more existential to them. It is highly unlikely to be a Fed Ex executive-level conspiracy. I'm sure there are a few counter examples, such as say the VW emissions scandal, but I would counter these were the exceptions that proved the rule and in general when the C-level was involved was much higher stakes.
- zucked 3y ago
  Even if you turn out to be flat wrong, I still appreciate the level-headedness to consider how we got to this point and the urging we all slow down a bit before we all march on FedEx headquarters.
  - fundad 3y ago
    > before we all march on FedEx headquarters It's a good thing the ownership class doesn't get away with literally everything because that would drive people to vigilante violence.
philip1209 3y ago
As a public company, FedEx undergoes routine audits. Do accounting firms audit vehicle mileage? I'd assume that vehicle depreciation is is an important part of the balance sheet calculations at Fedex, and that mileage might be audited as part of the depreciation functions.
sb057 3y ago
Complete shot in the dark, but I bet culpability lies with FedEx's thousands of subcontractors. Their van lease agreements with FedEx obviously benefit them if they return them with fewer miles. Given that a great deal of contractors tiny family businesses, it doesn't surprise me that enough of them tried to eek out more profit for people to start to notice.
ranting-moth 3y ago
I remember hearing a story of a car rental doing this on a systematic scale. When they were caught, they acknowledged a "mistake" and offered to reimburse difference in price. However, they were caught fiddling the mileage again on the 'reimbursed' cars (not upping it enough). They were caught for the second time because the catalytic converter had a chip that counted every 250 miles or something along those lines.
bastardoperator 3y ago
Maybe it has something to do with talking a package from Southern California, to Florida, to Texas, delay shipping twice, and then back to Northern California. If I need the item and I see FedEx as the shipping agent, I go look elsewhere.
rasz 3y ago
Similar, but much smaller scandal in UK involving BMW and Police. 1 BMW N57 Diesel engines like to catch fire if idled for a long time and then flogged (Oil/EGR coolant leak) https://jalopnik.com/bmws-are-bursting-into-flames-so-they-don-t-have-to-be-1848542518 https://jalopnik.com/bmws-are-bursting-into-flames-so-they-d... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11637379/Widow-PC-killed-horror-crash-praises-BMWs-decision-stop-selling-cars-UK-police-forces.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11637379/Widow-PC-k... 2 Police are exempt from MOD so their cars dont have documented service/odometer history. 3 Tons of dealers bought decommissioned Police BMWs and rolled odometers. The Clocked Up Holy Engine Scandal of the UK Police BMW Fleet by Geoff Buys Cars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEryJeBcg-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEryJeBcg-8 No more BMW Police Cars in the UK... thanks to N57 Engine Fires by Geoff Buys Cars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJFDdnMXKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJFDdnMXKg
technick 3y ago
The simple solution is never...ever... buy a used fleet vehicle.
x3874 3y ago
[dupe]

491 points by cwwc 3y ago

and then selling them at auction with 100,000 ... However, their real mileage was sometimes as much as four times the odometer readout These numbers matter more here. The Cummins/Allison engine/drive-train in these vehicles are otherwise good for 1 million miles before rebuild on average until they are used as delivery trucks. The constant stopping and starting used as delivery trucks cuts that number down to around 480k miles. So they are selling vehicles that will require engine and transmission rebuilds in less than 80k miles. That's very shady. The engine rebuilds are usually around $10k same as a refurbished engine and the transmission rebuild is around $3k. That does not count the cost to install them.

bagacrap 3y ago
HN never fails to deliver someone who really sounds like they know what they're talking about. Internet doesn't really corroborate these numbers afaict but hey
- jprete 3y ago
  This isn’t the kind of information that has ever been easy to find on the Internet.
- uncletaco 3y ago
  Well what does the internet say? Do you have links or context?
  - bagacrap 3y ago
    I don't really care what the answer is, I just decided to do a tiny bit of my own research to determine whether this confident sounding stranger was right or just sounded right.
- tredre3 3y ago
  I did a few google searches and even asked chatgpt, it's surprisingly hard to get a definitive answer. The consensus seems to be that after 500,000 miles the Cummins engine will either be dead or need to be rebuilt. 400,000 miles is considered high mileage that few achieve. So on the surface it seems like you might be right that LinuxBender was wrong. But he did sound quite knowledgeable, didn't he? So I still can't tell one way or another. Ah the beauty of the Internet :).
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    The issue is that "Cummins engine" is very generic, there are tens of different models, different bore x stroke, different power delivered, mounted on tens of different vehicles (with different weights and suited for different uses). Even the specific van/truck model Freightliner MT45 seemingly can mount different models of Cummins engines. Unless you find data for the specific model of engine and truck it is difficult to get valid numbers. Generally speaking, for heavy trucks and large engines, the 600,000 km (or 400,000 miles) is the mileage where an overhaul (not a whole rebuild) is needed. In a professional use, unless it is used in shifts, a truck will probably make 40,000 miles per year, so it should happen around 10 years age. The most common engine on the Freightliner MT45 seems to be the Cummins 6.7, which should be a little more resistant than the older 5.9, both can do 500,000 miles and more, in the "right hands" and with "proper maintenance". I doubt that used in a fleet (possibly "proper maintenance", but likely a lot of "wrong hands") it can reach 400,000 miles or more, and it makes sense for a fleet manager to sell at an auction the vehicles that are expected to need a large overhaul or a rebuild soon, in the article they talk about the fleet renovation happening around 350,000 miles.
    - LinuxBender 3y ago
      The consumer versions last half as long but that is a fun rabbit hole to go down, an adventure into the oil industry lobbyists, emission controls, etc... but it's a taboo topic here on HN. I do not try to red pill anyone and rather let them venture down the rabbit holes and do their own testing where it is safer to do so.
  - AngryData 3y ago
SkyPuncher 3y ago
There's so much more than just the engine, though. I'm dealing with a bunch of aging issues on a car right now. A lot of this stuff won't even show for a few years down the road. * Shocks and struts wear out * Catalytic converters are a semi-wear item * In winter states that use salt, rust absolutely destroys things. I've had the exhaust system rust through on all of my vehicles (simply happens with age). * Seat cushions, steering wheel, and other high touch surfaces wear. Likely not an issue _now_, but means a few years down the road, these things will be broken. * Engine accessories - belts, starters, alternators, pumps, etc. Everything is just a bit closer to it's failure point. ---- Most of these issues aren't particularly expensive on their own, but they add up. Further, your expected maintenance is wildly different.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  Salt (sodium chloride) is pretty rare anymore. It’s more expensive than another option. Liquid magnesium chloride is the goto in most states now, and you’ll be happy to know it’s even worse!
  - eatbitseveryday 3y ago
    Real table salt is never to be used as an ice melter on streets. “Salt” here is used in the chemical definition I would think.
    - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
      The UK uses 2 million tonnes of rock salt a year for road gritting, which is basically dirty table salt.
    - sgarman 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt It's still a mix often times but it's totally salt in some areas still.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      There is a salt mine up the road from me. The trucks start lining up for miles waiting for loads any time there is a winter storm expected. The only difference between that salt and table salt is that there is additional processing to the salt done when destined for table salt to ensure purity and shape. So, yes, they don't literally use table salt, but it is the same raw ingredient.
dylan604 3y ago
>The engine rebuilds are usually around $10k same as a refurbished engine What's the difference between a rebuilt engine and a refurbished engine?
- LinuxBender 3y ago
  Effectively the same aside from time if you are waiting on yours to be rebuilt. One is the engine you have that needs to be rebuilt and the other was rebuilt because someone did a swap and now its inventory in a shop that sells refurbished engines. [Edit] Adding jaclaz's very good point that one might be able to save money rebuilding their own if it requires less parts.
  - throwaway173738 3y ago
    Some refurbished parts come with a short warranty as well which can help cut risk if the rebuild was done poorly. They come in crates from a factory so the people who did the work specialized and have probably seen all the potential problems.
    - LinuxBender 3y ago
      Agreed that is the direction I would go. The only reason I can think to wait on a rebuild would be if one knows/trusts the mechanic and/or they are having modifications done to the engine for cooling, turbo, fuel efficiency, brackets for different accessories like dual alternators, computer tuning after removing components from the engine, etc...
- jaclaz 3y ago
  A rebuilt engine is your engine where (hopefully) all needed to be replaced parts were actually replaced (locally). A refurbished engine is another engine (identical to yours) where all needed to be replaced parts were (still hopefully) replaced. The difference is that (it really depends on a case by case basis) your engine might need less parts replaced and the replacement is done by your local mechanic (all in all it can cost less in some cases). With refurbished engines all parts in a given list are replaced, no matter their current condition, and the replacement is done by workers that usually do everyday exactly that. The cost of a refurbished engine (you give them back yours that they will refurbish for next customer) can be a little less (including transport costs) because the refurbisher has spare parts cheaper due to quantity and personnel is faster (because they do this specific work everyday and have all the proper tooling) but often it is very similar. Your advantages with a refurbished engine are that it is generally faster than a local rebuild, and usually you are offered some kind of warranty (which may not be the case for a local rebuild). For a company, it is a way to minimize the stop of the vehicle and to place some responsibilities to the external supplier.
eschneider 3y ago
I'm surprised they didn't get caught sooner. If it was _just_ an odometer rollback, it should have been easy to catch something being 'off' from a cursory inspection of the vehicle. The wear on things like driver seat bolsters is very different at 100K miles and 400K miles (and even at much lower mileage) and when stuff like that doesn't match the odometer readings, alarm bells should be going off.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Note that the lawsuit was filed back in 2017, so it seems to have been working its way through the legal system for a few years at this point.
  - xethos 3y ago
    That's actually a seperate lawsuit, unrelated to the class action in the headline.
    - justinclift 3y ago
      Oh thanks. My misunderstanding then. :)
      - cududa 3y ago
        The original plaintiff in the 2017 lawsuit popped into the comments section of the parent article, and did quite an amusing "AMA" sort of thing there. He makes a great point by saying something like "I filed this lawsuit in 2017, which means they were made aware of this practice 6 years they're doing this, and are apparently still doing it." Interesting that the top comment on this thread now is cautioning skepticism on the claims.
fredoralive 3y ago
I did have a weird thought, in a organisation as big as FedEx, would they have a pool of spare engines to minimise downtime? You could get unlucky and get a can with an engine that's been through a few chassis and end up with an ECU that knows the engine has done 400k miles whilst the chassis has only done 180k? Although that's probably a mad theory, if there is hijinks it probably is the good old fashioned kind, probably from this 3rd party middleman rather than FedEx themselves though.
- oasisbob 3y ago
  The value of having reliable vehicles probably outweighs the possible savings due to reactive deferred maintenance.
dghughes 3y ago
I had a 1/2 ton Dodge with a Cummins. The one thing you know or learn fast with a diesel is you change the fuel filter often. Diesel engines are nearly indestructible if the maintenance is done right at the very least the fuel filter.
- yardie 3y ago
  I've seen a diesel pulled out from the bottom of the bay, scrubbed clean, and installed in a new boat. The old boat caught on fire and sank. The old common rail diesels are damn hard to kill. Diesels need 3 things: fuel, oil, and coolant. Do not ever skimp on those 3.
  - birdman3131 3y ago
    Air helps a tiny bit as well.
    - yardie 3y ago
      You don’t supply the air. The list are the things a diesel need from you the operator.
themitigating 3y ago
What about every other component in the car?
daniel-cussen 3y ago
[dead]

ourmandave 3y ago

Some comment said these were resold as completely refurbed food trucks so the Fedex connection is dubious at best.

last_responder 3y ago
They were refurbed AFTER they were sold by Fed-Ex . Not sure what your point is.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
The lawsuit states that a number of people from different states are making the same accusation. That the trucks were utilized by Fedex for nearly 200k miles after the odometer swap is a worthwhile indicator that Fedex was complicit.
- sunk1st 3y ago
  If all sales were brokered by the same 3rd party then it doesn’t help us determine culpability.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    This seems to ignore that FedEx drove their altered odometers to ~200k miles.
    - delfinom 3y ago
      The problem is, it's not illegal to alter your odometer and drive it yourself. It is illegal not to report the odometer misreading in a sale. The real question is, who make the odometer change and where did the intentional or not breakdown happen on failure to report the odometer inaccuracy.
      - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
        > The real question is, who make the odometer change Better stated, I think, as who knew the odometers were changed out to zero reads, before the vehicles were then driven another ~200k miles. Trying to craft a scenario where no one at FedEx had any knowledge at all that their well used vehicles suddenly had zero miles seems like low-return effort. For an even better question, why undertake that specific project (at scale) except to perpetrate fraud?

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

For the how: The lawsuit accuses FedEx of replacing the odometers in many of its vans with new ones that read zero miles, using the vans for a bit longer after that Being born into a 5 digit odometer world and growing up around people who learned every way possible to suss out mileage - this seems nuts to me. How could they think that zero people would suspect and investigate an odometer swap? Past that, how could so few company mechanics notice a discrepancy between mileage and wear - that no whistleblowers came forward?

jnwatson 3y ago
Yeah this is such garden variety auto fraud.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
delfinom 3y ago
Company mechanics don't give a fuck that's why, either they are underpaid and/or underpressure to get as many vehicles done each night as possible. (Read up on how the mechanics trade works in general and its pretty shit, mechanics are often paid on minimum wage + "commission" on amount of work rushed through). It's not a field that people are going to stick their necks out and make themselves unhirable either. In this case FedEx outsources the work to a fleet management services company to remove even more liability from themselves.

sunk1st 3y ago

A close reading of the article leaves room to doubt whether FedEx was complicit in the alleged scheme. I’m not surprised to see that FedEx denies the allegations. Given that there is another defendant in the lawsuit I suspect there is more to this story than what’s been presented here.

habnds 3y ago
not very much room... the companies weren't all that separate and fedex profited off the alleged fraud >>> FedEx started auctioning old vans off through its fleet company, Holman Fleet Leasing (also a defendant in the lawsuit). The lawsuit alleges that both FedEx and Holman intentionally replaced the odometers to artificially inflate the values of the vans, so they'd sell for higher prices at various auctions throughout the United States. Then, according to the accusations, both companies would split the profits.
- sunk1st 3y ago
  The allegation is that both FedEx and Holman were involved, yes. If FedEx can produce an audit trail showing that the vehicles left FedEx facilities with true odometers then I don’t think Holman stands a chance.
  - unregistereddev 3y ago
    Or if FedEx can produce an audit trail indicating the odometers were faulty and had been replaced. A vehicle with 400,000 miles has seen a lot. If the dash gauges were replaced around 220,000 miles, then 180,000 miles have passed since then - and the new odometer will read 180,000. It is normal practice to replace a broken odometer with a new one. That is not fraudulent. However, when that vehicle is sold the seller is legally required to flag the title. A lot of liability depends on why the odometer was replaced, who transferred the title (does FedEx transfer the title to Holman before sending the vehicle to auction, or does Holman hold the title the entire time?), and whether the title was appropriately flagged as "Not actual mileage".

mdrzn 3y ago

"It isn't illegal to replace odometers and it isn't even illegal to sell vehicles with odometers that have inaccurate mileage readouts. However, to do so, a disclaimer needs to be made by the seller, indicating to the buyer that its mileage readout is inaccurate and that the odometer was replaced." How is it even legal? "You can lie but you have to admit to it".

jabradoodle 3y ago
If your odemeter malfunctions and you don't realise you may legitimately have no idea what the true value is.
kgermino 3y ago
Sometimes you need to replace the odometer (or the module it’s built into) and you can’t always update the new one with the correct value. Sometimes parts break and the odometer is no longer accurate, it’s reasonable to say you can still sell a car in that condition if you disclose the situation
icegreentea2 3y ago
Because you're not lying at that point? You've just told them that the odometer reading is wrong, and unless you can find some other way to backup your mileage claim, they'll just be priced as if they were nearly maxed out?
rblatz 3y ago
It’s called a True Mileage Unknown title brand. It significantly impacts the value of a vehicle.
jnwatson 3y ago
Odometers break and get replaced (and you can’t set the new one to the old value). Sometimes they get stuck. It isn’t lying if you say “this odometer is 40k low”.
- LocalH 3y ago
  > and you can’t set the new one to the old value Perhaps this should be possible? If nothing else, it should technically be possible to hook it to a load and run the odometer up to what it should be. You'd have to be careful not to overshoot, since you can't reduce the value on an odometer if they're properly designed. It'd still be useful to denote "this vehicle has had the odometer replaced, but care was taken to ensure the odometer value is within +/- 1% of the authentic value" Of course, this is really only for mechanical-style odometers. Digital ones, I know almost nothing about, wouldn't surprise me if there is no "stored mileage" in such an odometer.

oefrha 3y ago

> When he sold the truck, his buyer hooked it up to a computer that told them the real mileage was around 400,000 miles. I’m not knowledgeable about odometers at all, but if it’s as easy as “hooking up to a computer” to get the real mileage, why don’t people do that when they buy the trucks?

raincom 3y ago
By 'hooking up to a computer', one tampers odometers in the first place. That's how leased cars' odometers are tampered by some lessees.
- Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
  The OBD port can easily spit out a read only mileage reading which is not tampering with the recorded value in the ECU. The OBD port is supposed to be user accessible and usable by the end user and 3rd parties (at least in the EU) even though manufacturers are trying their hardest to put “non diagnostic data” behind their proprietary software and/or wireless comms. Reading the data from the OBD port isn’t (at least shouldn’t) be classed as tampering. One of the ways tampering happens on digital dashes that read the mileage from the ECU is by putting a interceptor in between the dash and the ECU as it’s easier than reprogramming the ECU. https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ https://youtu.be/f4af1OBU5nQ
- yetihehe 3y ago
  This comment was not clear. Odometer in car computer can be changed too. There exists special obd command to do this (when you need to replant ECU between engines), but you need to have a password (which is provided with "official" diagnostic computers/tools). If car has no mechanical odometer (most new passenger cars today don't), this is the only way to change odometer values.
  - fmntf 3y ago
    This is not how odometers are scammed. The EEPROM gets rewritten to zero, then you can increment the odometer to your preferred value via OBD/UDS. Please note that you can only increment the odometer without a specialized (authenticated) diagnostic session. FYI I do not reset odometers, I am on the other side, developing software for instrument clusters.

ryanmercer 3y ago

Doesn't surprise me, they didn't give me a cost of living increase for over a decade and new hires were making almost as much as I was when I quit after 15 and a half years (office job), along with about half the office quitting within a year.

jmclnx 3y ago

> Tom Layton of Henderson, Nevada first noticed FedEx's odometer rollbacks in 2017. Layton, who's been buying and selling trucks and vans for 36 years, bought a FedEx Freightliner truck with around 180,000 indicated miles. When he sold the truck, his buyer hooked it up to a computer that told them the real mileage was around 400,000 miles. And yet another reason to ensure "Right to Repair" Laws are passed and enforced. Right now, one state, I forgot which, was informed by the auto industry they will ignore the law. I do not know if enforcement has started yet.

primer42 3y ago
Massachusetts I think https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-not-to-comply-with-mass-right-to-repair-law/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-no...
- bagacrap 3y ago
  Thanks for the link. Instructed by the federal government not to comply seems quite a bit different than what gp is implying. Why would legislators bother considering the full implications of their bills?
sunk1st 3y ago
We only know that “buyer hooked it up to his computer and said [something]” - how does that strengthen an argument for (or against) right to repair, exactly?
- sp332 3y ago
  Car manufacturers are trying to lock out that kind of interface. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-not-to-comply-with-mass-right-to-repair-law/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/feds-tell-automakers-no...

llimos 3y ago

When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society? Maybe I'm naive but I think there used to be at least a modicum of self-restraint on this kind of thing. Sure, people always tried to make as much money as possible, but there used to be some limit somewhere - not because you'll get caught but because c'mon, we just don't do that! That seems to have now been totally lost.

light_hue_1 3y ago
Because the cost of fraud is far too low and it's now factored into business plans. And no executive at FedEx will go to jail for this. When you can break the law for less than the profits you get for breaking the law, that's just got business sense.
- IE6 3y ago
  > the cost of fraud is far too low > no executive will go to jail for this This seems to be the pervasive trend
dylan604 3y ago
>When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society? When were we not there?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Lots of little girls and boys are taught that and end up somewhere screaming "but that's not fair!" in the rain.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    And quickly realize they were lied to when they were taught things were fair to begin with, which reading between the lines argues that it wasn't fair to begin with. All of which to say, you just reiterated my point.

whartung 3y ago

Semi-related anecdote regarding this. This won’t happen with UPS delivery vans, as they have them custom made and scrap them at end of life. I assume for trademark purposes, among other things.

h2odragon 3y ago
Keeping outsiders from inspecting them may be a goal too. I hear they are at best a "rattletrap calamity" anymore.

mabbo 3y ago

All I can think is "why would you replace every odometer if you weren't committing fraud?". Like that costs money and time to do. Were they all broken and needed replacing? And if you aren't committing fraud and there's a reasonable reason to do this, why not do it just before sale? Why drive another 100k on them afterwards? It's just so dumb and obvious.

unregistereddev 3y ago
Some odometers have common problems. For several years Toyota's digital odometers had a bug that caused them to stop counting at 299,999 miles. Porsche's mechanical odometers from the late 1970's through the mid 1980's had a plastic gear that tended to strip out and cause them to stop counting at some random point. It is possible FedEx's odometers all came from the same supplier and all had a MTBF of around 300,000 miles - which would explain driving another 100k miles before selling the trucks when they reach 400,000 miles.

chriscappuccio 3y ago

I find this hard to believe. The claims of both lawsuits are basically the same. The FedEx routes are all independently owned. The route owners are responsible for fixing their vehicles. Parts get replaced constantly. Its a never ending mechanics job to serve these fleet vehicles.

j-bos 3y ago

Is anyone facing jail time for this historic fraud?

activiation 3y ago
No, because corporations are considered people that can't go to jail. They only get the benefits of being a person.
- db48x 3y ago
  The phrase “corporations are people” is somewhat ambiguous. It does not mean that every corporation is a person, it means that corporations are _composed of_ people. (Think “soylent green is people”, if it helps you understand.) The people in a corporation have rights, and thus any action taken by a corporation may be an expression of those rights. A corporate press release has just as much protection from the first amendment as any other statement a person might make. The people in a corporation can and do get sent to jail, even if the corporation itself does not.
  - activiation 3y ago
    It's not ambiguous and i think that you misunderstood the law.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    it means the corporation is literally a legal person: an identical but unincorporated organization would not be

SoftTalker 3y ago

I have doubts that we're getting an accurate story here, I know it's trendy to hate big companies but this seems like a really stupid thing to do and something you're likely to get caught doing if you're doing it on every truck. Anyone buying used delivery trucks knows they get driven all day every day until it's uneconomical for the owner to continue operating them. Hundreds of thousands of miles. It would be very unusual to see one for sale with under 200k miles, that's "just getting broken in" for trucks like this. I'm even surprised that these trucks have mechanical odometers. I havent's seen one in a passenger car in many years, they are all digital, rarely fail and (I assume) would be harder to tamper with.

shiftpgdn 3y ago
Depending on the manufacturer the digital odometers are even easier to tamper with. There are a dozen people on my local craigslist that will reset/rollback odometers for you for $100.
bhouston 3y ago
The article is dealing with a real lawsuit and it has many different members of the class action in multiple different states. They will have to prove their case in the court so it is unlikely that it is completely made up. There does seem to be a pattern of behavior here.
delfinom 3y ago
>I have doubts that we're getting an accurate story here, Well that's the magic of the court system, the filing of the lawsuit is to either get them to settle/admit wrongdoing or to force this to discovery. >I'm even surprised that these trucks have mechanical odometers. Freightliner vans aren't fancy hi-tech vehicles, they are utility vehicles. But there's no difference between mechanical and digital odometers here. If you swap a digital cluster, you end up swapping the odometer reading. Architecturally vehicles have seldom moved on from storing the reading in the cluster. It really becomes a question of where do you store the reading? A engine computer is more likely to be replaced due to an accident than the odometer in the car even though on many vehicles it will still track the mileage. >they are all digital, rarely fail and (I assume) would be harder to tamper with. Actually, in most cars they are absolutely tamperable over CAN or physical access. If I remember right, the Honda digital cluster even up to my 2021 just has a standard SPI flash chip that you can tamper with to change the odometer value.

floren 3y ago

> they're resold and repurposed for various purposes. "Allow myself to introduce... myself"

cm2012 3y ago

If its true I'm sure there will be a number of lawsuits. The existing court system can settle this kind of thing pretty well.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dredmorbius 3y ago

There was a brief discussion of this about five days ago, though well below the dupelicate-submission threshold, with only 5 comments: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36460395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36460395> From Jalopnik: "FedEx Odometer Fraud" <https://jalopnik.com/fedex-named-in-what-could-be-one-of-the-largest-odomete-1850570768 https://jalopnik.com/fedex-named-in-what-could-be-one-of-the...>

crhulls 3y ago

I'd encourage a bit more skepticism to this article. While this accusation could possibly be true, there are two things to keep in mind, which I am sharing having experience as a founder/CEO who has gone from startup to IPO: 1) This is taken from a complaint in a class action lawsuit. Class action lawyers are very similar to patent trolls whereby they can spin almost any story they want. And journalists go for clicks, so they amplify the sensationalism. It doesn't mean this is one of those, but a class action complaint should not just blindly be trusted. 2) There is a strong theme of "of course execs lie cheat steal at every turn" and I also think this narrative should be questioned. Ethics aside, the level of compliance in a public company is insanely high. Execs are already rich. To risk jailtime, which fraud can lead to, you'd need to see something more existential than slightly increasing margins on used van sales. I felt inclined to comment as I've been on the other end of articles like this, and it is astounding the level of mind reading people have done into my intent and actions on things that were factually just not true at all. I also truly would find it very difficult to commit a broad organizational fraud even if I wanted to and my company is only 500 people. If I had to make a prediction, the case is less black and white than it appears, and if there was fraud, it was probably committed at a non-executive level by the person whose P&L was directly tied to these resales. Or, it was done independently by the much smaller leasing company where this was more existential to them. It is highly unlikely to be a Fed Ex executive-level conspiracy. I'm sure there are a few counter examples, such as say the VW emissions scandal, but I would counter these were the exceptions that proved the rule and in general when the C-level was involved was much higher stakes.

zucked 3y ago
Even if you turn out to be flat wrong, I still appreciate the level-headedness to consider how we got to this point and the urging we all slow down a bit before we all march on FedEx headquarters.
- fundad 3y ago
  > before we all march on FedEx headquarters It's a good thing the ownership class doesn't get away with literally everything because that would drive people to vigilante violence.

philip1209 3y ago

As a public company, FedEx undergoes routine audits. Do accounting firms audit vehicle mileage? I'd assume that vehicle depreciation is is an important part of the balance sheet calculations at Fedex, and that mileage might be audited as part of the depreciation functions.

sb057 3y ago

Complete shot in the dark, but I bet culpability lies with FedEx's thousands of subcontractors. Their van lease agreements with FedEx obviously benefit them if they return them with fewer miles. Given that a great deal of contractors tiny family businesses, it doesn't surprise me that enough of them tried to eek out more profit for people to start to notice.

ranting-moth 3y ago

I remember hearing a story of a car rental doing this on a systematic scale. When they were caught, they acknowledged a "mistake" and offered to reimburse difference in price. However, they were caught fiddling the mileage again on the 'reimbursed' cars (not upping it enough). They were caught for the second time because the catalytic converter had a chip that counted every 250 miles or something along those lines.

bastardoperator 3y ago

Maybe it has something to do with talking a package from Southern California, to Florida, to Texas, delay shipping twice, and then back to Northern California. If I need the item and I see FedEx as the shipping agent, I go look elsewhere.

rasz 3y ago

Similar, but much smaller scandal in UK involving BMW and Police. 1 BMW N57 Diesel engines like to catch fire if idled for a long time and then flogged (Oil/EGR coolant leak) https://jalopnik.com/bmws-are-bursting-into-flames-so-they-don-t-have-to-be-1848542518 https://jalopnik.com/bmws-are-bursting-into-flames-so-they-d... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11637379/Widow-PC-killed-horror-crash-praises-BMWs-decision-stop-selling-cars-UK-police-forces.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11637379/Widow-PC-k... 2 Police are exempt from MOD so their cars dont have documented service/odometer history. 3 Tons of dealers bought decommissioned Police BMWs and rolled odometers. The Clocked Up Holy Engine Scandal of the UK Police BMW Fleet by Geoff Buys Cars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEryJeBcg-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEryJeBcg-8 No more BMW Police Cars in the UK... thanks to N57 Engine Fires by Geoff Buys Cars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJFDdnMXKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJFDdnMXKg

technick 3y ago

The simple solution is never...ever... buy a used fleet vehicle.

x3874 3y ago

[dupe]