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Infantilism as a norm (2018)

107 points by rzk 3y ago

stainablesteel 3y ago
this is a human form of epigenetic changes its from the neverending drive for safety
strken 3y ago
There's no mention of money or real estate prices, nor of extended educational requirements and time in university, nor the increased cost of child-rearing. For a couple, following (what's claimed to be) the traditional path means spending tens of thousands of dollars on an engagement and wedding, hundreds of thousands on a mortgage, having each parent work a full-time job, and buying all the overpriced junk that's expected as part of raising a kid. People are still willing to follow that path, of course, but they increasingly need to build up their savings to afford it. It's incredibly unsurprising that big barriers to entry prevent people from passing through traditional life stages, and instead lead them to sit on the couch smoking weed and watching anime.
- juve1996 3y ago
  I think this is spot on. Most people want to grow up, but they simply can't. They can't afford the same lifestyle without far more debt inducing schooling, both parents have to work, housing is unaffordable, our congress and presidency is filled with ancient people who have no idea how an iPad works, so policy is far behind the times. It's no surprise many people just...gave up. There's nothing to latch onto or own - everything is blocked by someone who already got theirs.
tarsinge 3y ago
It relies on a cliche of the idea of what an adult should be. But the premise that adults were more mature and not showing these traits before is flawed. Many 60+ years old strongly exhibits all the traits of the described "infantile personality" when their lifestyle and world vision is challenged, be it in their private or professional life. Sure if you judge by the capacity to masquerade and give the appearance of showing the traditional adult image of the older generation by definition the younger one will score worse. But it's a facade, on the inside the majority of older adults are still children. > characterized by immature feelings (‘childish’ reactions, lack of willpower, lack of confidence), external locus of control (other people are blamed), inflated self-concept, low demands on self (accompanied by high demands on society), and egocentrism. So you tell me none of your older neighbours will display this and instead be models of "emotional maturity (rationality, self-control, lack of impulsivity, etc.)" when you talk to them about lawn mowing, car usage/size, energy, meat eating, land use regulation, ...? There is no more infantilism than before, what has changed is the definition of achievement.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  The stories that I heard about families before world war II are fairly different. I think the great shift occurred with the boomers, The surge and wealth, and the tragedies of world war II making spoiling a child seem worthwhile
  - _jas 3y ago
    I'm actually quite curious about what you have heard regarding families before WWII. Many of the stories I've heard are themes of struggle and survival.
    - readthenotes1 3y ago
      Yep. With the teenagers pitching in not only for their own spending money, but also their families.
- imbnwa 3y ago
  People forget that the history of the Prohibition movement was already 100 years old when it finally won constitutional prohibition in 1919 (and people literally empowered the Italian and Irish mafias to get around it; so empowered we got a President and an US Attorney General out of it). The Whiskey Rebellion started over a tax that was backed by lots of reformer types who wished to leverage a de facto 'sin tax' to control drinking. People use to drink all the damn time. My grandfather was a silent generation career man for GE, worked there 40 years, fought in WWII by lying about his age and fought in Korea, raised a family, bought a house, the very type one would venerate as a true adult man... and he drank a lot. He didn't stop drinking until I was 8 or 9 and had suffered a heart attack.
hyperhello 3y ago
I'm going to venture the opinion that advertisements and ad-adjacent broadcast media is bursting with adults acting like kids, or adults acting like kids would imagine adults would act, or whatever's slightly appropriate for the product or show being vended. All the way from the "influencer" invented personality down to even where you wouldn't expect it, such as Mythbusters. So we invent the kidult, which is just a scapegoat for all of this -- oh, when will the kids grow up and realize they are adults and act like it? It's a sign, it's a symbol, for what we can't talk about, because you never, ever discuss the way the money influences us.
johnea 3y ago
> Some studies have shown that when live communication is replaced with digital communication, empathy decreases and ‘autistic-like behaviour’ grows (self-absorption, escaping reality). This leads to emotional immaturity. There's just no doubt about the destructive aftermath of abandoning physical reality for life inside one's own mind (i.e. online).
emodendroket 3y ago
> Kidults are people who preserve their teenage likings (from video games, anime and fantasy, to a responsibility-free lifestyle) until they are 30-35 and older. It seems like this is painting with an extremely broad brush… is liking video games (or, I don’t know, the Offspring) really that similar to putting off employment or parenthood?
AlbertCory 3y ago
From a purely selfish-gene perspective, our only purpose is to survive until reproduction, and then maybe be sure our children do, too. And their children. Maybe to help your siblings and extended family. And so on. I've clearly failed that way, having no kids, so I'm in no position to lecture other people. If you're religious, then you think your purpose is to serve God. However, the fixation in this thread on games, especially video, is weird. There are four mentions of "parents" and only one of "games."
flkiwi 3y ago
Infantilism is such a silly term in this context. I'm a fully grown, reasonably successful person. I know who I am and what I'm doing. I also play video games and absolutely refuse to wear suits except for a few religious and government events. In my ever-longer life, I have found that many people at some point expect to put on an adult suit, a metaphorical phase change that involves wearing suits, no longer smiling, putting away the xbox, and the like. I have also found that the vast majority of people who feel very strongly about that adult suit suffer from crushing insecurities. That's ABSOLUTELY not to say that all people who wear suits and do stereotypically adult things are insecure--just, by and large, the ones who lecture and finger-wag at people who don't put on the adult suit. Put another way, I have extremely high demands of the people I work with. Wearing a suit and not playing xbox does not, by itself, give me confidence that your work product is superior. If someone can give me a good product while wearing a bathrobe on a break from a marathon Fornite session? You do you, boo!
- jojobas 3y ago
  The odds of a fortnite binger in a bathrobe turning out a "good product" are rather slim. Putting work (i.e. delayed gratification) before play (instant, or pre-measured artificially-designed-delay gratification) does not guarantee better output, but is pretty much a pre-requisite.
  - flkiwi 3y ago
    I partially reject the premise, that people who play video games are pursuing instant gratification vs. those who "work." Of the hundreds of people I've worked closely with, I've seen no significant difference in willingness to work among the two groups, and there are slackers in both. And, consistently, the gamers, players, infantilists, or whatever produce vastly more creative, interesting work and fine more creative and interesting solutions. In my experience the proper 28-year-olds who put on their proper adult suit and behave like proper adults give me work product that is, at best, competent. I'll take the gamer almost every time, because they're far more likely to be confident and creative.
  - inconceivable 3y ago
edrxty 3y ago
Shrug...? Adulthood is what we choose to make it. Any concept of age brackets is an arbitrary definition we impose on ourselves. Given the current economic and ecological situation, fucking you do you. See: https://xkcd.com/150/ https://xkcd.com/150/
notmypenguin 3y ago
I cannot think of more childish folks than adults adulting because their age number demands it. When society itself is hellbent on turning up the volume on consumerism that is already destroying the conditions for life on earth, I say unto the shrinks: “ show me your adults who are responsible” Individual humans have occasionally impressed me, society has only disappointed me. To butcher and paraphrase Ghandi: “what do you think about snivelization? I think it would be a very good idea.”
ohduran 3y ago
So let me get this straight: the authors of this study find that adults are showing signs of infantilism. And rather than looking at what are the consequences, they focus on the causes, and label the child - adolescent - adult stages as...traditional, hinting that it's just one of many ways in which we can "stratify" lifespans, so to say. In fact, in the very first sentence, they say that this view is no longer relevant. As in, for who knows how long, it was. Suddenly it isn't. This framework for viewing ways of organizing society as equally valid and inconsequential defeats the purpose of what, I believe, social sciences are for. I don't need a taxonomy of options, I want actionable insights!
- abwizz 3y ago
  > This framework for viewing ways of organizing society as equally valid and inconsequential defeats the purpose of what, I believe, social sciences are for. I don't need a taxonomy of options, I want actionable insights! social sciences suffer from a lack significance and repeatability more than others, which suggests to me that they are indeed foremost required to establish taxonomies and definitions because anything more is just guessing with a great potential to harm ppl.
- andyjohnson0 3y ago
  > This framework for viewing ways of organizing society as equally valid and inconsequential defeats the purpose of what, I believe, social sciences are for. I don't need a taxonomy of options, I want actionable insights! The article is describing academic research, not self-help. In this context it is perfectly reasonable to examine causes rather than consequences, and taxonomies rather than "actionable insights". Thats not to say that consequences etc aren't valid areas on inquiry, just that this article isn't examining them.
- kome 3y ago
  "I want actionable insights!" so juvenile :) it's important to understand the phenomenon, this is science. action is about politics.
  - ohduran 3y ago
xg15 3y ago
What surprises me the most is that this was from a russian university. Compare with today, where "western decadence" is one of the main talking points of the russian narrative. (The paper is from 2018, so before the invasion, but already after maidan, so the narrative was likely already taking shape)
- oytis 3y ago
  HSE has been one of the places which allowed a relative academic freedom - as soon as you don't criticise the government directly. These places existed for the whole duration of Putin's regime, and only after 24th of Feb 2022 the government declared zero tolerance to any dissent.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  "Western decadence" isn't anything new. It's been a talking point in USSR just as much. It's a talking point in Europe. It's a talking point in the US too. The generic "${contemporary dominant / liberal culture} decadence" has been a staple of religion and philosophy since the ancient days.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  You think that the concept of western decadence is Russian propaganda from the last five years?
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Russian propaganda of the last three years has used "western decadence" as a theme a lot, but obviously the concept pre-dates that and is common in rightwing messaging throughout the 20th century.
    - lynx23 3y ago
      Critizing "western decadence" is not a rightwing only phenomenon. I wonder why you frame it as such.
      - 3y ago
baxuz 3y ago
This is a really insightful topic. I might be in the wrong here, but I see a number of parallels with gender - a somewhat-strict biological component (age) vs a social component (maturity). Both having alternative models of the normative ones.
coldtea 3y ago
>‘Legitimation’ of infantilism can also be related to its assessment as a protective mechanism, a way to overcome the difficulties in life. Nancy McWilliams, a psychoanalyst from the U.S., emphasized that the term ‘infantile personality’ is disappearing from the official list, which is logical; in modern terms, it’s just an alternative life course. Fall of Rome vibes... I'm sure the parents of e.g. "back to parent's house at 30 to find myself" types are also delighted for their alternative life course involving freeloading on them...
- vkou 3y ago
  Rome fell for a million reasons, but 'the average Roman got decadent and lazy and unproductive' or 'Romans stopped calling it how it is' weren't among them.
- jhanschoo 3y ago
  If you have good relations with your parents as a young/middle aged adult it's actually not a bad idea moving back; it doesn't necessarily mean freeloading off them. If you have kids they get to look after your kids and you get to look after them. After experiencing independence perhaps it isn't so bad learning interdependence with family.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Yeah, those are not the cases I had in mind - or the extended family living together of times past. More about the "30 year old avid gamer living in parent's basement" or "coming back to live with parents after the dream of skateboarding-pop-singer career didn't pan out".
    - Balgair 3y ago
      Not trying to needle you at all here: How many people are like that? I tried to google around for this, but really didn't come up with much, statistics-wise.
      - 3y ago
zer0tonin 3y ago
>Kidults are people who preserve their teenage likings (from video games, anime and fantasy, to a responsibility-free lifestyle) until they are 30-35 and older This is always something that has bothered by society's concept of adulthood. Are people just supposed to not like things past 35? Is the only acceptable use of your free time as an adult reading non-fiction about finding the meaning of life?
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  I think the idea is that adolescent activities prepare us for life as adults, as adults we concern our self with the grown-up version of the same thing. Whether it's running a business or waging war or building machines or whatever. That's predicated on adulthood being a state where you're autonomous and free to do something with your life, and falls apart when we're up to our ears in debt and working as wage-slaves. In the latter scenario, you may satisfy the itch for the thing you've been preparing for by additional preparation. We play video games or watch TV-shows about people going on adventures instead of actually going on adventures ourselves because that's not an option.
- taneq 3y ago
  Is this still "society's" concept of adulthood? Or is it just certain demographics? Most people I know in tech-type careers still play video games (or would if they had time), read a wide range of fantasy and sci-fi books, enjoy hobbies etc. I would regard someone as being immature if they thought that, as an adult, you shouldn't do the things you enjoy once you've met your responsibilities.
- wooque 3y ago
  Yes, most people lose interest for video games, cartoons, superhero movies, etc when they grow up. This happen to me as well. Some keep clinging to childish escapism.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- whoisthemachine 3y ago
  "Kidults" is a silly term, and feels like another baseless attack implying that younger generations shouldn't enjoy life and should instead be productive. My grandparents would get together with their friends and play card games well into old age (I wonder at what age they learned those games?). My parents' generation (the baby boomers) seem to still enjoy movies, national sports, TV, and other leisure activities of their generation. There is nothing wrong with anyone enjoying leisure activities, and humanity has probably done so since the earliest of times.
Tade0 3y ago
> People's life courses have become unpredictable. For example, people earn a degree, work, and then study again and change their profession. When we moved to Italy me and my SO joked that people in the west have two youths: one for generally screwing around and the other for picking up their first jobs, making initial career choices etc. Back home the age at which women give birth for the first time is lower than the EU average, but so is fertility rate - it's actually some of the lowest in the union. And this was visible when we returned after four years - in the meantime some of our friends went the, as my aunt puts it, "marriage, mortgage, family" route, while others seemingly changed nothing in their lifestyles. The best predictor of this that I can think of is whether someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually and are willing to provide support - be it by helping finance real estate or participating in care for the infant.
- 0xcafefood 3y ago
  > The best predictor of this that I can think of is whether someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually and are willing to provide support - be it by helping finance real estate or participating in care for the infant. I think this is a good insight. I don't agree with your other comments that one can draw up a rational "pros vs cons" list to weigh the merits of reproducing and inevitably find it's a bad deal. It's ultimately a question of what gives you joy in life. We are now in an era where people who do not want to reproduce can choose not to without being celibate. Over time, this will select for a population more full of people who value children and will choose to have them. And, to your point, it will select for people will also choose to help their own children do the same. Essentially, strong selection pressure is currently being exerted (at least in developed societies) which selects specifically for people who innately want children. And that apparently also correlates strongly with other beliefs, like religiosity and traditional views.
- Hendrikto 3y ago
  > someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually Fulfilling other people‘s expectations is a really bad reason for having children.
  - 3y ago
EGreg 3y ago
The value of adulthood as a period of certainty has declined for many, which means that this period is being delayed. Delayed? It means it’s being eliminated for some. Like Einstein, who said; Do not grow old, no matter how long you live. Never cease to stand like curious children before the Great Mystery into which we were born.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Of course by that he really meant "screw real life achievement, play minecraft all day".
4gotunameagain 3y ago
[flagged]
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Strange - I interpret a lot of the far right movements to be very immature. MAGA enthusiasts would seem to fit a lot of those descriptions and there does seem to be a lot of childish opinions not anchored in reality spouted from far-right politicians (e.g. it conflicts with MY religion, so it should be banned).
  - 4gotunameagain 3y ago
    I agree, almost all of far * movements are immature. The antiquated left-right political dimension is a circle with a very small gap between the extremes
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      I think that it's more the authoritarian movements that are especially immature and of course that's orthogonal to left/right classifications. As a lefty myself, I find that right/capitalist politics to remind me of the toddler stage when kids are claiming things to be their own ("mine!") and exaggerating all of their accomplishments (e.g. Trumpism). Lefties tend to have more of a notion of sharing and trying to be emphatic with others, but there's certainly a breed of self-righteous, angry lefties too (c.f. Linus Torvalds' angry outbursts). Edit: Another thought - is the infantilism better associated with populism? i.e. to appeal to a large demographic, it's best to keep slogans simple (e.g. "Get Brexit Done" from the UK Tories) and having simple ideas that can appeal to people despite the ideas not actually being practical (e.g. "Eat the rich")
      - mordae 3y ago
        I feel that "Eat the rich" reaction is simply an outcome of when people realize that they are in fact being exploited. Many were feeling similar in USSR. "Who does not rob the state, robs his own family" was a pretty popular slogan back in those days. About the "immaturity", I don't have a good grasp of what it's supposed to mean. Maybe we should stop using it altogether (outside of biology) and concentrate on specific skills.
thriftwy 3y ago
One dark issue here is that you can surely let yourself to be immature towards the age of 35, but for women it becomes progressively harder to have children after this point. Males have it easier, but if you plan to have a "normative" family with small age gap between spouses, these problems are also yours. Quality of the offspring also suffers somewhat, though this may be offset by superior medicine and post-natal care. That, or exchange a prolonged youth for having effectively no adulthood, while also moving your society in unsustainable mode* So our social behavior no longer matches our biology, in which by a quirk we (at least women) are only fertile for around 1/4 of our total life, and less than that in socially acceptable fashion. * Caveat emptor, perhaps it would be great if we could deflate population of most countries by having low birth rate for a while, but this is not what we are good at - instead, countries seem to race into hyperurbanization and population replacement
- Hendrikto 3y ago
  > we (at least women) are only fertile for around 1/4 of our total life What? Women become infertile around 45-50. Going with the lower bound, your 1/4 figure implies a lifespan of 180 years.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    Much higher probability of birth defects and fertility problems at that point, even if you're still menstruating.
    - kpw94 3y ago
      For people wondering exactly how "much higher probability". This is for example down syndrome, but many of the other syndroms follow the same trend: https://courses.fetalmedicine.com/images/Course/Course.007-000.png https://courses.fetalmedicine.com/images/Course/Course.007-0... Notice the y-axis is a log scale. This may be offset if women froze their eggs beforehand, but, obviously not everyone can afford it, and also until recently, it wasn't really needed as couples would have children earlier in life.
pixel3234 3y ago
[flagged]
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  All animals produce CO2 just by breathing. Should we cull their populations? Sterilise the largest mammal species so they can become extinct? To revert global warming, the breathing of animals such as ourselves is rounding error. Furthermore, reducing population is only useful to the extent that the population is assumed to have a carbon footprint (breathing excluded) which is still unsustainable as is that of the current population. It is a measure that can have an effect on the macro policy level of "promote the conditions that will encourage demographic transition" [0], not on the micro "don't have kids" scale. Honestly, the idea that having kids is irresponsible because "population growth causes global warming" is a prime example of an infantile idea. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition
- vlunkr 3y ago
  Maybe, just maybe, people think that there are more factors to consider when having kids than their CO2 footprint.
- refurb 3y ago
  Side note: any CO2 humans exhale was already in the atmosphere and fixed by plants. Humans produce no net new CO2 by breathing.
- K0balt 3y ago
  Peter Pan has a carbon footprint, and leaves the world a worse place than when he arrived. The Peter pans of the world need to get out and plant some trees, at least, to justify their existence. Or stop playing childish games and join one of the many clans of “escape extinction” 3.0.
  - pixel3234 3y ago
    [flagged]
mothsonasloth 3y ago
I would argue that growing up in a comfortable Western lifestyle is contributing to this infantilism and will be one of the contributors of the decline of the western world. If you are a Syrian refugee, the last thing you are caring about is the new Mario Nintendo game and Starbucks frappucino. Time to get serious and have children (me talking to myself)
- the_only_law 3y ago
  I suppose you can move to Syria then. Thankfully the mature mindset of the socioeconomic realities have led to prosperity, and not total collapse, like the childish west.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Once the Syrian refugees arrive somewhere safe and settle, they quite like the creature comforts too. It's not an innate property of different groups, it's a Maslow situation.
  - barelyauser 3y ago
    Of course he does. Parent comment means the socioeconomic conditions of the refugee place of origin.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    There is a huge difference between fighting tooth and nail for creature comforts and just being born into it.

107 points by rzk 3y ago

this is a human form of epigenetic changes its from the neverending drive for safety

There's no mention of money or real estate prices, nor of extended educational requirements and time in university, nor the increased cost of child-rearing. For a couple, following (what's claimed to be) the traditional path means spending tens of thousands of dollars on an engagement and wedding, hundreds of thousands on a mortgage, having each parent work a full-time job, and buying all the overpriced junk that's expected as part of raising a kid. People are still willing to follow that path, of course, but they increasingly need to build up their savings to afford it. It's incredibly unsurprising that big barriers to entry prevent people from passing through traditional life stages, and instead lead them to sit on the couch smoking weed and watching anime.

juve1996 3y ago
I think this is spot on. Most people want to grow up, but they simply can't. They can't afford the same lifestyle without far more debt inducing schooling, both parents have to work, housing is unaffordable, our congress and presidency is filled with ancient people who have no idea how an iPad works, so policy is far behind the times. It's no surprise many people just...gave up. There's nothing to latch onto or own - everything is blocked by someone who already got theirs.

tarsinge 3y ago

It relies on a cliche of the idea of what an adult should be. But the premise that adults were more mature and not showing these traits before is flawed. Many 60+ years old strongly exhibits all the traits of the described "infantile personality" when their lifestyle and world vision is challenged, be it in their private or professional life. Sure if you judge by the capacity to masquerade and give the appearance of showing the traditional adult image of the older generation by definition the younger one will score worse. But it's a facade, on the inside the majority of older adults are still children. > characterized by immature feelings (‘childish’ reactions, lack of willpower, lack of confidence), external locus of control (other people are blamed), inflated self-concept, low demands on self (accompanied by high demands on society), and egocentrism. So you tell me none of your older neighbours will display this and instead be models of "emotional maturity (rationality, self-control, lack of impulsivity, etc.)" when you talk to them about lawn mowing, car usage/size, energy, meat eating, land use regulation, ...? There is no more infantilism than before, what has changed is the definition of achievement.

readthenotes1 3y ago
The stories that I heard about families before world war II are fairly different. I think the great shift occurred with the boomers, The surge and wealth, and the tragedies of world war II making spoiling a child seem worthwhile
- _jas 3y ago
  I'm actually quite curious about what you have heard regarding families before WWII. Many of the stories I've heard are themes of struggle and survival.
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    Yep. With the teenagers pitching in not only for their own spending money, but also their families.
imbnwa 3y ago
People forget that the history of the Prohibition movement was already 100 years old when it finally won constitutional prohibition in 1919 (and people literally empowered the Italian and Irish mafias to get around it; so empowered we got a President and an US Attorney General out of it). The Whiskey Rebellion started over a tax that was backed by lots of reformer types who wished to leverage a de facto 'sin tax' to control drinking. People use to drink all the damn time. My grandfather was a silent generation career man for GE, worked there 40 years, fought in WWII by lying about his age and fought in Korea, raised a family, bought a house, the very type one would venerate as a true adult man... and he drank a lot. He didn't stop drinking until I was 8 or 9 and had suffered a heart attack.

hyperhello 3y ago

I'm going to venture the opinion that advertisements and ad-adjacent broadcast media is bursting with adults acting like kids, or adults acting like kids would imagine adults would act, or whatever's slightly appropriate for the product or show being vended. All the way from the "influencer" invented personality down to even where you wouldn't expect it, such as Mythbusters. So we invent the kidult, which is just a scapegoat for all of this -- oh, when will the kids grow up and realize they are adults and act like it? It's a sign, it's a symbol, for what we can't talk about, because you never, ever discuss the way the money influences us.

johnea 3y ago

> Some studies have shown that when live communication is replaced with digital communication, empathy decreases and ‘autistic-like behaviour’ grows (self-absorption, escaping reality). This leads to emotional immaturity. There's just no doubt about the destructive aftermath of abandoning physical reality for life inside one's own mind (i.e. online).

emodendroket 3y ago

> Kidults are people who preserve their teenage likings (from video games, anime and fantasy, to a responsibility-free lifestyle) until they are 30-35 and older. It seems like this is painting with an extremely broad brush… is liking video games (or, I don’t know, the Offspring) really that similar to putting off employment or parenthood?

AlbertCory 3y ago

From a purely selfish-gene perspective, our only purpose is to survive until reproduction, and then maybe be sure our children do, too. And their children. Maybe to help your siblings and extended family. And so on. I've clearly failed that way, having no kids, so I'm in no position to lecture other people. If you're religious, then you think your purpose is to serve God. However, the fixation in this thread on games, especially video, is weird. There are four mentions of "parents" and only one of "games."

flkiwi 3y ago

Infantilism is such a silly term in this context. I'm a fully grown, reasonably successful person. I know who I am and what I'm doing. I also play video games and absolutely refuse to wear suits except for a few religious and government events. In my ever-longer life, I have found that many people at some point expect to put on an adult suit, a metaphorical phase change that involves wearing suits, no longer smiling, putting away the xbox, and the like. I have also found that the vast majority of people who feel very strongly about that adult suit suffer from crushing insecurities. That's ABSOLUTELY not to say that all people who wear suits and do stereotypically adult things are insecure--just, by and large, the ones who lecture and finger-wag at people who don't put on the adult suit. Put another way, I have extremely high demands of the people I work with. Wearing a suit and not playing xbox does not, by itself, give me confidence that your work product is superior. If someone can give me a good product while wearing a bathrobe on a break from a marathon Fornite session? You do you, boo!

jojobas 3y ago
The odds of a fortnite binger in a bathrobe turning out a "good product" are rather slim. Putting work (i.e. delayed gratification) before play (instant, or pre-measured artificially-designed-delay gratification) does not guarantee better output, but is pretty much a pre-requisite.
- flkiwi 3y ago
  I partially reject the premise, that people who play video games are pursuing instant gratification vs. those who "work." Of the hundreds of people I've worked closely with, I've seen no significant difference in willingness to work among the two groups, and there are slackers in both. And, consistently, the gamers, players, infantilists, or whatever produce vastly more creative, interesting work and fine more creative and interesting solutions. In my experience the proper 28-year-olds who put on their proper adult suit and behave like proper adults give me work product that is, at best, competent. I'll take the gamer almost every time, because they're far more likely to be confident and creative.
- inconceivable 3y ago

edrxty 3y ago

Shrug...? Adulthood is what we choose to make it. Any concept of age brackets is an arbitrary definition we impose on ourselves. Given the current economic and ecological situation, fucking you do you. See: https://xkcd.com/150/ https://xkcd.com/150/

notmypenguin 3y ago

I cannot think of more childish folks than adults adulting because their age number demands it. When society itself is hellbent on turning up the volume on consumerism that is already destroying the conditions for life on earth, I say unto the shrinks: “ show me your adults who are responsible” Individual humans have occasionally impressed me, society has only disappointed me. To butcher and paraphrase Ghandi: “what do you think about snivelization? I think it would be a very good idea.”

ohduran 3y ago

So let me get this straight: the authors of this study find that adults are showing signs of infantilism. And rather than looking at what are the consequences, they focus on the causes, and label the child - adolescent - adult stages as...traditional, hinting that it's just one of many ways in which we can "stratify" lifespans, so to say. In fact, in the very first sentence, they say that this view is no longer relevant. As in, for who knows how long, it was. Suddenly it isn't. This framework for viewing ways of organizing society as equally valid and inconsequential defeats the purpose of what, I believe, social sciences are for. I don't need a taxonomy of options, I want actionable insights!

abwizz 3y ago
> This framework for viewing ways of organizing society as equally valid and inconsequential defeats the purpose of what, I believe, social sciences are for. I don't need a taxonomy of options, I want actionable insights! social sciences suffer from a lack significance and repeatability more than others, which suggests to me that they are indeed foremost required to establish taxonomies and definitions because anything more is just guessing with a great potential to harm ppl.
andyjohnson0 3y ago
> This framework for viewing ways of organizing society as equally valid and inconsequential defeats the purpose of what, I believe, social sciences are for. I don't need a taxonomy of options, I want actionable insights! The article is describing academic research, not self-help. In this context it is perfectly reasonable to examine causes rather than consequences, and taxonomies rather than "actionable insights". Thats not to say that consequences etc aren't valid areas on inquiry, just that this article isn't examining them.
kome 3y ago
"I want actionable insights!" so juvenile :) it's important to understand the phenomenon, this is science. action is about politics.
- ohduran 3y ago

xg15 3y ago

What surprises me the most is that this was from a russian university. Compare with today, where "western decadence" is one of the main talking points of the russian narrative. (The paper is from 2018, so before the invasion, but already after maidan, so the narrative was likely already taking shape)

oytis 3y ago
HSE has been one of the places which allowed a relative academic freedom - as soon as you don't criticise the government directly. These places existed for the whole duration of Putin's regime, and only after 24th of Feb 2022 the government declared zero tolerance to any dissent.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
"Western decadence" isn't anything new. It's been a talking point in USSR just as much. It's a talking point in Europe. It's a talking point in the US too. The generic "${contemporary dominant / liberal culture} decadence" has been a staple of religion and philosophy since the ancient days.
pessimizer 3y ago
You think that the concept of western decadence is Russian propaganda from the last five years?
- pjc50 3y ago
  Russian propaganda of the last three years has used "western decadence" as a theme a lot, but obviously the concept pre-dates that and is common in rightwing messaging throughout the 20th century.
  - lynx23 3y ago
    Critizing "western decadence" is not a rightwing only phenomenon. I wonder why you frame it as such.
    - 3y ago

baxuz 3y ago

This is a really insightful topic. I might be in the wrong here, but I see a number of parallels with gender - a somewhat-strict biological component (age) vs a social component (maturity). Both having alternative models of the normative ones.

coldtea 3y ago

>‘Legitimation’ of infantilism can also be related to its assessment as a protective mechanism, a way to overcome the difficulties in life. Nancy McWilliams, a psychoanalyst from the U.S., emphasized that the term ‘infantile personality’ is disappearing from the official list, which is logical; in modern terms, it’s just an alternative life course. Fall of Rome vibes... I'm sure the parents of e.g. "back to parent's house at 30 to find myself" types are also delighted for their alternative life course involving freeloading on them...

vkou 3y ago
Rome fell for a million reasons, but 'the average Roman got decadent and lazy and unproductive' or 'Romans stopped calling it how it is' weren't among them.
jhanschoo 3y ago
If you have good relations with your parents as a young/middle aged adult it's actually not a bad idea moving back; it doesn't necessarily mean freeloading off them. If you have kids they get to look after your kids and you get to look after them. After experiencing independence perhaps it isn't so bad learning interdependence with family.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Yeah, those are not the cases I had in mind - or the extended family living together of times past. More about the "30 year old avid gamer living in parent's basement" or "coming back to live with parents after the dream of skateboarding-pop-singer career didn't pan out".
  - Balgair 3y ago
    Not trying to needle you at all here: How many people are like that? I tried to google around for this, but really didn't come up with much, statistics-wise.
    - 3y ago

zer0tonin 3y ago

>Kidults are people who preserve their teenage likings (from video games, anime and fantasy, to a responsibility-free lifestyle) until they are 30-35 and older This is always something that has bothered by society's concept of adulthood. Are people just supposed to not like things past 35? Is the only acceptable use of your free time as an adult reading non-fiction about finding the meaning of life?

marginalia_nu 3y ago
I think the idea is that adolescent activities prepare us for life as adults, as adults we concern our self with the grown-up version of the same thing. Whether it's running a business or waging war or building machines or whatever. That's predicated on adulthood being a state where you're autonomous and free to do something with your life, and falls apart when we're up to our ears in debt and working as wage-slaves. In the latter scenario, you may satisfy the itch for the thing you've been preparing for by additional preparation. We play video games or watch TV-shows about people going on adventures instead of actually going on adventures ourselves because that's not an option.
taneq 3y ago
Is this still "society's" concept of adulthood? Or is it just certain demographics? Most people I know in tech-type careers still play video games (or would if they had time), read a wide range of fantasy and sci-fi books, enjoy hobbies etc. I would regard someone as being immature if they thought that, as an adult, you shouldn't do the things you enjoy once you've met your responsibilities.
wooque 3y ago
Yes, most people lose interest for video games, cartoons, superhero movies, etc when they grow up. This happen to me as well. Some keep clinging to childish escapism.
deleted 3y ago
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whoisthemachine 3y ago
"Kidults" is a silly term, and feels like another baseless attack implying that younger generations shouldn't enjoy life and should instead be productive. My grandparents would get together with their friends and play card games well into old age (I wonder at what age they learned those games?). My parents' generation (the baby boomers) seem to still enjoy movies, national sports, TV, and other leisure activities of their generation. There is nothing wrong with anyone enjoying leisure activities, and humanity has probably done so since the earliest of times.

Tade0 3y ago

> People's life courses have become unpredictable. For example, people earn a degree, work, and then study again and change their profession. When we moved to Italy me and my SO joked that people in the west have two youths: one for generally screwing around and the other for picking up their first jobs, making initial career choices etc. Back home the age at which women give birth for the first time is lower than the EU average, but so is fertility rate - it's actually some of the lowest in the union. And this was visible when we returned after four years - in the meantime some of our friends went the, as my aunt puts it, "marriage, mortgage, family" route, while others seemingly changed nothing in their lifestyles. The best predictor of this that I can think of is whether someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually and are willing to provide support - be it by helping finance real estate or participating in care for the infant.

0xcafefood 3y ago
> The best predictor of this that I can think of is whether someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually and are willing to provide support - be it by helping finance real estate or participating in care for the infant. I think this is a good insight. I don't agree with your other comments that one can draw up a rational "pros vs cons" list to weigh the merits of reproducing and inevitably find it's a bad deal. It's ultimately a question of what gives you joy in life. We are now in an era where people who do not want to reproduce can choose not to without being celibate. Over time, this will select for a population more full of people who value children and will choose to have them. And, to your point, it will select for people will also choose to help their own children do the same. Essentially, strong selection pressure is currently being exerted (at least in developed societies) which selects specifically for people who innately want children. And that apparently also correlates strongly with other beliefs, like religiosity and traditional views.
Hendrikto 3y ago
> someone's parents both expect grandchildren to appear eventually Fulfilling other people‘s expectations is a really bad reason for having children.
- 3y ago

EGreg 3y ago

The value of adulthood as a period of certainty has declined for many, which means that this period is being delayed. Delayed? It means it’s being eliminated for some. Like Einstein, who said; Do not grow old, no matter how long you live. Never cease to stand like curious children before the Great Mystery into which we were born.

jojobas 3y ago
Of course by that he really meant "screw real life achievement, play minecraft all day".

4gotunameagain 3y ago

[flagged]

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
Strange - I interpret a lot of the far right movements to be very immature. MAGA enthusiasts would seem to fit a lot of those descriptions and there does seem to be a lot of childish opinions not anchored in reality spouted from far-right politicians (e.g. it conflicts with MY religion, so it should be banned).
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  I agree, almost all of far * movements are immature. The antiquated left-right political dimension is a circle with a very small gap between the extremes
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    I think that it's more the authoritarian movements that are especially immature and of course that's orthogonal to left/right classifications. As a lefty myself, I find that right/capitalist politics to remind me of the toddler stage when kids are claiming things to be their own ("mine!") and exaggerating all of their accomplishments (e.g. Trumpism). Lefties tend to have more of a notion of sharing and trying to be emphatic with others, but there's certainly a breed of self-righteous, angry lefties too (c.f. Linus Torvalds' angry outbursts). Edit: Another thought - is the infantilism better associated with populism? i.e. to appeal to a large demographic, it's best to keep slogans simple (e.g. "Get Brexit Done" from the UK Tories) and having simple ideas that can appeal to people despite the ideas not actually being practical (e.g. "Eat the rich")
    - mordae 3y ago
      I feel that "Eat the rich" reaction is simply an outcome of when people realize that they are in fact being exploited. Many were feeling similar in USSR. "Who does not rob the state, robs his own family" was a pretty popular slogan back in those days. About the "immaturity", I don't have a good grasp of what it's supposed to mean. Maybe we should stop using it altogether (outside of biology) and concentrate on specific skills.

thriftwy 3y ago

One dark issue here is that you can surely let yourself to be immature towards the age of 35, but for women it becomes progressively harder to have children after this point. Males have it easier, but if you plan to have a "normative" family with small age gap between spouses, these problems are also yours. Quality of the offspring also suffers somewhat, though this may be offset by superior medicine and post-natal care. That, or exchange a prolonged youth for having effectively no adulthood, while also moving your society in unsustainable mode* So our social behavior no longer matches our biology, in which by a quirk we (at least women) are only fertile for around 1/4 of our total life, and less than that in socially acceptable fashion. * Caveat emptor, perhaps it would be great if we could deflate population of most countries by having low birth rate for a while, but this is not what we are good at - instead, countries seem to race into hyperurbanization and population replacement

Hendrikto 3y ago
> we (at least women) are only fertile for around 1/4 of our total life What? Women become infertile around 45-50. Going with the lower bound, your 1/4 figure implies a lifespan of 180 years.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Much higher probability of birth defects and fertility problems at that point, even if you're still menstruating.
  - kpw94 3y ago
    For people wondering exactly how "much higher probability". This is for example down syndrome, but many of the other syndroms follow the same trend: https://courses.fetalmedicine.com/images/Course/Course.007-000.png https://courses.fetalmedicine.com/images/Course/Course.007-0... Notice the y-axis is a log scale. This may be offset if women froze their eggs beforehand, but, obviously not everyone can afford it, and also until recently, it wasn't really needed as couples would have children earlier in life.

pixel3234 3y ago

[flagged]

Mordisquitos 3y ago
All animals produce CO2 just by breathing. Should we cull their populations? Sterilise the largest mammal species so they can become extinct? To revert global warming, the breathing of animals such as ourselves is rounding error. Furthermore, reducing population is only useful to the extent that the population is assumed to have a carbon footprint (breathing excluded) which is still unsustainable as is that of the current population. It is a measure that can have an effect on the macro policy level of "promote the conditions that will encourage demographic transition" [0], not on the micro "don't have kids" scale. Honestly, the idea that having kids is irresponsible because "population growth causes global warming" is a prime example of an infantile idea. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition
vlunkr 3y ago
Maybe, just maybe, people think that there are more factors to consider when having kids than their CO2 footprint.
refurb 3y ago
Side note: any CO2 humans exhale was already in the atmosphere and fixed by plants. Humans produce no net new CO2 by breathing.
K0balt 3y ago
Peter Pan has a carbon footprint, and leaves the world a worse place than when he arrived. The Peter pans of the world need to get out and plant some trees, at least, to justify their existence. Or stop playing childish games and join one of the many clans of “escape extinction” 3.0.
- pixel3234 3y ago
  [flagged]

mothsonasloth 3y ago

I would argue that growing up in a comfortable Western lifestyle is contributing to this infantilism and will be one of the contributors of the decline of the western world. If you are a Syrian refugee, the last thing you are caring about is the new Mario Nintendo game and Starbucks frappucino. Time to get serious and have children (me talking to myself)

the_only_law 3y ago
I suppose you can move to Syria then. Thankfully the mature mindset of the socioeconomic realities have led to prosperity, and not total collapse, like the childish west.
pjc50 3y ago
Once the Syrian refugees arrive somewhere safe and settle, they quite like the creature comforts too. It's not an innate property of different groups, it's a Maslow situation.
- barelyauser 3y ago
  Of course he does. Parent comment means the socioeconomic conditions of the refugee place of origin.
- jojobas 3y ago
  There is a huge difference between fighting tooth and nail for creature comforts and just being born into it.