5 ms·

Difference is that in tech you can retire with 50. Few people who still work at 70 do so by choice.

Mordisquitos 3y ago
So can many physicians. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that most doctors in the 50–70 age group that continue to work do so not because they cannot retire, but rather because they do not want to retire because they find their practice fulfilling.
- haldujai 3y ago
  Not true, some do (stereotypically the surgeon with 4 ex wives and children that don’t know them) but it really depends on your country/practice pattern. On one extreme Canadian physicians are (generally) ineligible for pension/retirement benefits. Many US private practice jobs are the same. Academic US jobs usually have some form of retirement support. Add in the opportunity cost of not earning income until you’re 30+ as well as loans and I don’t think it’s a fair characterization to say “most physicians in the 50-70 age range want to work”, especially full time and considering burnout rates of ~50-60%. Can’t speak about Europe which has very different compensation structure and debt burden.
  - sarchertech 3y ago
    > Many US private practice jobs are the same. Where are you getting this from? The vast majority of doctors have access to the same kinds of fixed benefit retirement plans as people in other industries have.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      Very few people in private industry have access to fixed benefit plans (other than social security). Most everyone has fixed contribution plans: 401(k) [or 403(b) for education/non-profit].
      - sarchertech 3y ago
        Sorry I invented the term fixed benefit to be in opposition to defined benefit. What I meant was defined contribution. Which was my point physicians generally have access to the same plans as other industries.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        "Fixed" and "defined" would be roughly synonyms in this usage, which is why no one understood you. Defined contribution everyone would have understood to be in opposition of defined benefit.
    - haldujai 3y ago
      From my job search as a physician. Literally no private practice job I’ve interviewed at or heard of provides defined-benefit retirement, if you know one let me know. Similarly I don’t know of many non-medicine jobs that still offer this either, but they do offer defined-contribution plans and GlassDoor suggests Google matches 7%. The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions (depending if you own your own facilities you can potentially exit for a lump-sum at retirement, if you are just part of a hospital based group you don’t have any assets other than the contract so it’s like a 1-200k exit similar to the buy-in). My surgeon friends in that income bracket are also all fee-for-service/eat what you kill rats that also don’t get employer retirement contributions/benefits or equity. A lot of us don’t even get paid sick days. The jobs that offer you defined-benefit or employer contributions for retirement are academia or HMOs which is like 250-350k in radiology. In Canada we’re technically corporations (for tax deferral) and consequently don’t even have RRSP (401k/IRA equivalent) contribution room (unless you pay yourself in salary). But there’s no employer matching/contribution in either case.
      - vibrio 3y ago
        “ The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions” Am I reading correctly that having no 401k match would be a concern for someone making $500k-$1m annually?
        haldujai 3y ago
        You’re reading incorrectly and I also wasn’t very clear. It’s not a concern and I’m not saying we’re not well-compensated but 7% is something to consider when comparing total compensation across industries (and is one of the easiest line-items to objectively discuss). A larger part of that physician’s income has to go towards planning retirement and inflation (and self managing that) than is being posited here. In addition to health benefits, sick leave and vacation. Someone making 400k at a place matching 7% with a good benefits package isn’t making less than a radiologist at 500k in private practice. As an example a colleague of mine recently changed jobs and went to ~350k in an academic environment from ~520k PP and after calculating all of the benefits and reduced hours (less evenings/weekends, so assumed he would sign up for extra shifts) came out financially ahead. I haven’t worked an engineering job in over a decade but my gut/recollection is that similar base comp numbers would probably pan out the same especially as there is a significant opportunity cost. It’s the difference between any independent contractor vs employee, regardless of if that’s medicine, construction or freelance SWE so when comparing the “high income physician” job it should be compared like you would a freelancer to FAANG employee @ 10 years of experience. FWIW the median in private practice radiology is ~500k. As our compensation is literally per work-unit the only way to go higher is to work more hours, so the equivalent of FAANG engineer doing freelance work on the side.
- hansthehorse 3y ago
  Many of the doctors at the VA I go to are retired then took the VA job. They see 8 to 10 patients a day and spend between 20 to 30 minutes with each. They work 8am to 4pm and go home. On the other hand surgeons and their support staff have crazy schedules.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
That is BS, a big load of BS. There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. This thread must have a lot of top FAANG's managers posting this morning.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  An above average eye surgeon in the US with a few years of experience is the rough equivalent of a middle manager in terms of age and could be in terms of rarity.
- hn976827 3y ago
  > There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. In the literal sense I doubt that. If they are "nearly living on the street" then they seem to have issues handling money. Literally everybody else around then is making less and is not in the street either. Or are you saying that the lady behind the Walmart cashier or the pizza place guy or the girl moving the office lawn all make more than the tech guy? Hardly. In the figurative sense, sure, some of them may not have a big detached single-family house with two big BMWs in front, but if anything below that is considered "nearly living on the street" then it's your perspective that needs some adjusting, not mine.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    Perhaps I was over-stating. But it is true, that tech people retiring at 50 and living comfortably is a real small minority, not some common occurrence like everyone in tech is swimming in gold. Living on street was hyperbole, but I do see a lot of tech people working long hours, on -call 24-7, dealing with bad bosses, all because of the 'fear' of living on the street. So maybe they aren't close to the street. And if over 50, that fear drives the 'do-whatever-it-takes-even-if-pulling-another-weekend'. It isn't some golden retirement, that is so bogus. Its like there is some assumption that everyone in tech got stock options at google.
    - hn976827 3y ago
8b16380d 3y ago
That’s not true at all.
Spooky23 3y ago
If you got on the FANG train around the time they dropped the standards and kept the comp going. Tech is boom/bust. Ask a grandpa who worked for DEC in the 80s how that worked out for him.

So can many physicians. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that most doctors in the 50–70 age group that continue to work do so not because they cannot retire, but rather because they do not want to retire because they find their practice fulfilling.

haldujai 3y ago
Not true, some do (stereotypically the surgeon with 4 ex wives and children that don’t know them) but it really depends on your country/practice pattern. On one extreme Canadian physicians are (generally) ineligible for pension/retirement benefits. Many US private practice jobs are the same. Academic US jobs usually have some form of retirement support. Add in the opportunity cost of not earning income until you’re 30+ as well as loans and I don’t think it’s a fair characterization to say “most physicians in the 50-70 age range want to work”, especially full time and considering burnout rates of ~50-60%. Can’t speak about Europe which has very different compensation structure and debt burden.
- sarchertech 3y ago
  > Many US private practice jobs are the same. Where are you getting this from? The vast majority of doctors have access to the same kinds of fixed benefit retirement plans as people in other industries have.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    Very few people in private industry have access to fixed benefit plans (other than social security). Most everyone has fixed contribution plans: 401(k) [or 403(b) for education/non-profit].
    - sarchertech 3y ago
      Sorry I invented the term fixed benefit to be in opposition to defined benefit. What I meant was defined contribution. Which was my point physicians generally have access to the same plans as other industries.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        "Fixed" and "defined" would be roughly synonyms in this usage, which is why no one understood you. Defined contribution everyone would have understood to be in opposition of defined benefit.
  - haldujai 3y ago
    From my job search as a physician. Literally no private practice job I’ve interviewed at or heard of provides defined-benefit retirement, if you know one let me know. Similarly I don’t know of many non-medicine jobs that still offer this either, but they do offer defined-contribution plans and GlassDoor suggests Google matches 7%. The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions (depending if you own your own facilities you can potentially exit for a lump-sum at retirement, if you are just part of a hospital based group you don’t have any assets other than the contract so it’s like a 1-200k exit similar to the buy-in). My surgeon friends in that income bracket are also all fee-for-service/eat what you kill rats that also don’t get employer retirement contributions/benefits or equity. A lot of us don’t even get paid sick days. The jobs that offer you defined-benefit or employer contributions for retirement are academia or HMOs which is like 250-350k in radiology. In Canada we’re technically corporations (for tax deferral) and consequently don’t even have RRSP (401k/IRA equivalent) contribution room (unless you pay yourself in salary). But there’s no employer matching/contribution in either case.
    - vibrio 3y ago
      “ The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions” Am I reading correctly that having no 401k match would be a concern for someone making $500k-$1m annually?
      - haldujai 3y ago
        You’re reading incorrectly and I also wasn’t very clear. It’s not a concern and I’m not saying we’re not well-compensated but 7% is something to consider when comparing total compensation across industries (and is one of the easiest line-items to objectively discuss). A larger part of that physician’s income has to go towards planning retirement and inflation (and self managing that) than is being posited here. In addition to health benefits, sick leave and vacation. Someone making 400k at a place matching 7% with a good benefits package isn’t making less than a radiologist at 500k in private practice. As an example a colleague of mine recently changed jobs and went to ~350k in an academic environment from ~520k PP and after calculating all of the benefits and reduced hours (less evenings/weekends, so assumed he would sign up for extra shifts) came out financially ahead. I haven’t worked an engineering job in over a decade but my gut/recollection is that similar base comp numbers would probably pan out the same especially as there is a significant opportunity cost. It’s the difference between any independent contractor vs employee, regardless of if that’s medicine, construction or freelance SWE so when comparing the “high income physician” job it should be compared like you would a freelancer to FAANG employee @ 10 years of experience. FWIW the median in private practice radiology is ~500k. As our compensation is literally per work-unit the only way to go higher is to work more hours, so the equivalent of FAANG engineer doing freelance work on the side.
hansthehorse 3y ago
Many of the doctors at the VA I go to are retired then took the VA job. They see 8 to 10 patients a day and spend between 20 to 30 minutes with each. They work 8am to 4pm and go home. On the other hand surgeons and their support staff have crazy schedules.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

That is BS, a big load of BS. There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. This thread must have a lot of top FAANG's managers posting this morning.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
An above average eye surgeon in the US with a few years of experience is the rough equivalent of a middle manager in terms of age and could be in terms of rarity.
hn976827 3y ago
> There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. In the literal sense I doubt that. If they are "nearly living on the street" then they seem to have issues handling money. Literally everybody else around then is making less and is not in the street either. Or are you saying that the lady behind the Walmart cashier or the pizza place guy or the girl moving the office lawn all make more than the tech guy? Hardly. In the figurative sense, sure, some of them may not have a big detached single-family house with two big BMWs in front, but if anything below that is considered "nearly living on the street" then it's your perspective that needs some adjusting, not mine.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Perhaps I was over-stating. But it is true, that tech people retiring at 50 and living comfortably is a real small minority, not some common occurrence like everyone in tech is swimming in gold. Living on street was hyperbole, but I do see a lot of tech people working long hours, on -call 24-7, dealing with bad bosses, all because of the 'fear' of living on the street. So maybe they aren't close to the street. And if over 50, that fear drives the 'do-whatever-it-takes-even-if-pulling-another-weekend'. It isn't some golden retirement, that is so bogus. Its like there is some assumption that everyone in tech got stock options at google.
  - hn976827 3y ago

8b16380d 3y ago

That’s not true at all.

Spooky23 3y ago

If you got on the FANG train around the time they dropped the standards and kept the comp going. Tech is boom/bust. Ask a grandpa who worked for DEC in the 80s how that worked out for him.