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> There's just no reason to do the job when you can get the same compensation working remotely in tech. Looking through the "Who's Hiring" thread is soul-crushi

> There's just no reason to do the job when you can get the same compensation working remotely in tech. Looking through the "Who's Hiring" thread is soul-crushing. Physician salaries are the only ones that do not grow relative to inflation and have decreased year-on-year relative to inflation for decades. What ? Most U.S physicians make 300K + after residency with job security set for life. The real bright ones, the "faang" doctors make close to a million. Show me anyone in tech who can have that guaranteed for him. You're basically guaranteed to join the millionaire club if you decide to work enough years even as a mediocre doctor. Yes its an extremely difficult job I have no argument there, but there's no comparison to tech in terms of compensation or job security.

jimmydddd 3y ago
The job security issue is huge. Many of my tech and finance friends in their early 50's are getting pushed out of their jobs, while my physician friends in their 60's can keep their career as long as they want. A family member recently visited a dr. in his late 70's.
- hn976827 3y ago
  Difference is that in tech you can retire with 50. Few people who still work at 70 do so by choice.
  - Mordisquitos 3y ago
    So can many physicians. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that most doctors in the 50–70 age group that continue to work do so not because they cannot retire, but rather because they do not want to retire because they find their practice fulfilling.
    - haldujai 3y ago
      Not true, some do (stereotypically the surgeon with 4 ex wives and children that don’t know them) but it really depends on your country/practice pattern. On one extreme Canadian physicians are (generally) ineligible for pension/retirement benefits. Many US private practice jobs are the same. Academic US jobs usually have some form of retirement support. Add in the opportunity cost of not earning income until you’re 30+ as well as loans and I don’t think it’s a fair characterization to say “most physicians in the 50-70 age range want to work”, especially full time and considering burnout rates of ~50-60%. Can’t speak about Europe which has very different compensation structure and debt burden.
      - sarchertech 3y ago
        > Many US private practice jobs are the same. Where are you getting this from? The vast majority of doctors have access to the same kinds of fixed benefit retirement plans as people in other industries have.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        Very few people in private industry have access to fixed benefit plans (other than social security). Most everyone has fixed contribution plans: 401(k) [or 403(b) for education/non-profit].
        sarchertech 3y ago
        Sorry I invented the term fixed benefit to be in opposition to defined benefit. What I meant was defined contribution. Which was my point physicians generally have access to the same plans as other industries.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        "Fixed" and "defined" would be roughly synonyms in this usage, which is why no one understood you. Defined contribution everyone would have understood to be in opposition of defined benefit.
        haldujai 3y ago
        From my job search as a physician. Literally no private practice job I’ve interviewed at or heard of provides defined-benefit retirement, if you know one let me know. Similarly I don’t know of many non-medicine jobs that still offer this either, but they do offer defined-contribution plans and GlassDoor suggests Google matches 7%. The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions (depending if you own your own facilities you can potentially exit for a lump-sum at retirement, if you are just part of a hospital based group you don’t have any assets other than the contract so it’s like a 1-200k exit similar to the buy-in). My surgeon friends in that income bracket are also all fee-for-service/eat what you kill rats that also don’t get employer retirement contributions/benefits or equity. A lot of us don’t even get paid sick days. The jobs that offer you defined-benefit or employer contributions for retirement are academia or HMOs which is like 250-350k in radiology. In Canada we’re technically corporations (for tax deferral) and consequently don’t even have RRSP (401k/IRA equivalent) contribution room (unless you pay yourself in salary). But there’s no employer matching/contribution in either case.
    - hansthehorse 3y ago
      Many of the doctors at the VA I go to are retired then took the VA job. They see 8 to 10 patients a day and spend between 20 to 30 minutes with each. They work 8am to 4pm and go home. On the other hand surgeons and their support staff have crazy schedules.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    That is BS, a big load of BS. There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. This thread must have a lot of top FAANG's managers posting this morning.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      An above average eye surgeon in the US with a few years of experience is the rough equivalent of a middle manager in terms of age and could be in terms of rarity.
    - hn976827 3y ago
      > There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. In the literal sense I doubt that. If they are "nearly living on the street" then they seem to have issues handling money. Literally everybody else around then is making less and is not in the street either. Or are you saying that the lady behind the Walmart cashier or the pizza place guy or the girl moving the office lawn all make more than the tech guy? Hardly. In the figurative sense, sure, some of them may not have a big detached single-family house with two big BMWs in front, but if anything below that is considered "nearly living on the street" then it's your perspective that needs some adjusting, not mine.
      - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        Perhaps I was over-stating. But it is true, that tech people retiring at 50 and living comfortably is a real small minority, not some common occurrence like everyone in tech is swimming in gold. Living on street was hyperbole, but I do see a lot of tech people working long hours, on -call 24-7, dealing with bad bosses, all because of the 'fear' of living on the street. So maybe they aren't close to the street. And if over 50, that fear drives the 'do-whatever-it-takes-even-if-pulling-another-weekend'. It isn't some golden retirement, that is so bogus. Its like there is some assumption that everyone in tech got stock options at google.
        hn976827 3y ago
  - 8b16380d 3y ago
    That’s not true at all.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    If you got on the FANG train around the time they dropped the standards and kept the comp going. Tech is boom/bust. Ask a grandpa who worked for DEC in the 80s how that worked out for him.
- JJMcJ 3y ago
  A 50 year old physician or lawyer, if they are good, is at the absolute top of their profession and can 90% expect work another ten or twenty or more years still earning top dollar. A 50 year old non-management programmer? Look forward to having 23 year olds asking if you know what an array is for the rest of your work life.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    I don't agree about lawyers actually. If you haven't made it into something close to partner level or have extremely valuable knowledge and skillset you'll be seen as a liability. There's plenty of people in their late 20s to early 40s who will be preferred over you. Same goes for most jobs actually, doctors are the outliers. For now...wait till A.I makes progress in medical circles.
    - singleshot_ 3y ago
      One fact I can add to your knowledge is that at my firm, the lawyers who have been practicing longest have the highest billable rate. One more is that I very, very rarely ask any 29 year old lawyers at my firm any questions, although I love them dearly. When I need someone to review my work or answer a ticklish question, I seek out 72 year olds and ask them. I'm not sure who clients prefer but when it comes to legal problems I prefer elder lawyers.
      - weatherlite 3y ago
        Yes they are partner level. How many 50 year old lawyers has your firm hired recently? Ones who haven't advanced to partner?
        weatherlite 3y ago
        To be clear I'm not saying this never happens (hiring of mid level 50 year olds), I'm just saying it's just as rare as in tech. I don't think I'm imagining this, it's a pretty well established statistic that after 50 job participation rates begin to fall.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  It's interesting that places value seniority and experience so much more in medicine vs tech. Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism. Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?
  - haldujai 3y ago
    I wouldn't say they're valued, the compensation is (with some nuance) based on a work-unit/fee-code which is the same for all of us. The academic component goes up for relevant physicians like it does for any professor-type role. Doctors work longer mostly because you can't fire them unless they're negligent/incompetent (for various reasons including that most are self-employed/contractors either individually or as a group). The only value the hospital places on seniority is that you know the local practice patterns so there's less of a learning curve as compared to someone ewer. > Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism. We have continuing medical education requirements but the reality is most of medicine is designed to be easy and guideline based. Weird and wonderful stuff benefits from experience. > Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer? A 60 year old surgeon is still taking out an appendix, just with newer tools than when they were 30, for the same amount of money as a newer one. I would imagine an older developer would want to be more well-compensated and have career growth focusing on things like architecture or having a team but I defer to practicing developers for their input on why they're not valued.
    - sarchertech 3y ago
      When it comes to value, when my wife interviews for a job (she’s a physician) they fly her out and spend a day taking her to see the sights, so they convince here how great the city is. Then they take her out to a fancy dinner and woo her some more. When I interview at a new job as a very senior engineer (and relatively well known I in my area), I get to jump through 7 rounds of interviews where someone asks me the equivalent of medschool exam questions. If I’m lucky my connections might let me whittle the interview rounds down to 5. There may be 20 people in any given tech stack/industry who are valued the way my wife is by employers.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  As someone in the midst of a difficult career pivot from tech to medicine, I confirm that this is the primary motivation for making the switch at this stage of my life.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
PheonixPharts 3y ago
Even now 300k TC is pretty easy to get for any competent engineer wanting to work for a publicly traded company that can get comp in RSUs. It's also very easy to get a 200k+ remote eng job, even now, that will allow you to spend as much time with your family as you like, rarely have you working past 5pm, and working in predictable, relatively low stress (potentially fun!) problems all day. The job security is a good point, but job security isn't as meaningful for extremely high stress jobs since the risk of burnout is much higher. Doesn't matter if it's easy to get work if you find that work destroying your personal life.
- soared 3y ago
  Your circle of 2/300k engineers does not represent average people. 99% of Americans should not be able to get a faang job even if the exact park was laid in front of them before college.
  - PheonixPharts 3y ago
    I have never worked for a FAANG company, or anything close, and can usually not get in the front door at any "prestigious" company. In my last round of interviews nearly all startups/small companies I talked to where offering 200k+ for remote senior engineers. It's not hard to break 200k remote as a software engineer. If you're not there I highly recommend you start looking around, even in this market, rather than simply dismissing this comp as "prestigious faang only". Personally I think the 500k+ TCs are going to disappear for all but the rarest of cases (this is closer to what FAANG engs that I know make), but 200k+ is likely to be the baseline for the foreseeable future for experienced software engineers.
    - VirusNewbie 3y ago
      Do you make 300k? You said it was “easy to get” so surely you’re above that?
      - PheonixPharts 3y ago
chimeracoder 3y ago
> What ? Most U.S physicians make 300K + after residency Most US physicians also pay for a lot of work-related expenses out-of-pocket (insurance, continuing ed, etc), and due to the nature of tax codes, most that often is not actually deductible in practice (particularly since they'll usually end up paying AMT). There's a lot of variance depending on which specialty you choose and where you work, but as a point of reference: most new attending physicians in metro areas are actually netting less than an engineer in the same area who has been working since graduating college[0]. (And that's before you factor in any student debt, or the opportunity cost of forgoing ~10 years of gainful employment). > with job security set for life. May have been true 40 years ago, but definitely not true today, especially for certain fields. [0] If two people graduate college at the same time, and one goes into medicine and the other goes to work as an engineer, the engineer will easily reach career level (senior) by the time the other person is done with their residency.
- nradov 3y ago
  All true, but the unemployment rate for licensed physicians is virtually zero. They can always find some kind of job, although they might have to move somewhere undesirable.
foobiekr 3y ago
Exactly. Longevity is much greater outside of tech.

jimmydddd 3y ago

The job security issue is huge. Many of my tech and finance friends in their early 50's are getting pushed out of their jobs, while my physician friends in their 60's can keep their career as long as they want. A family member recently visited a dr. in his late 70's.

hn976827 3y ago
Difference is that in tech you can retire with 50. Few people who still work at 70 do so by choice.
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  So can many physicians. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that most doctors in the 50–70 age group that continue to work do so not because they cannot retire, but rather because they do not want to retire because they find their practice fulfilling.
  - haldujai 3y ago
    Not true, some do (stereotypically the surgeon with 4 ex wives and children that don’t know them) but it really depends on your country/practice pattern. On one extreme Canadian physicians are (generally) ineligible for pension/retirement benefits. Many US private practice jobs are the same. Academic US jobs usually have some form of retirement support. Add in the opportunity cost of not earning income until you’re 30+ as well as loans and I don’t think it’s a fair characterization to say “most physicians in the 50-70 age range want to work”, especially full time and considering burnout rates of ~50-60%. Can’t speak about Europe which has very different compensation structure and debt burden.
    - sarchertech 3y ago
      > Many US private practice jobs are the same. Where are you getting this from? The vast majority of doctors have access to the same kinds of fixed benefit retirement plans as people in other industries have.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        Very few people in private industry have access to fixed benefit plans (other than social security). Most everyone has fixed contribution plans: 401(k) [or 403(b) for education/non-profit].
        sarchertech 3y ago
        Sorry I invented the term fixed benefit to be in opposition to defined benefit. What I meant was defined contribution. Which was my point physicians generally have access to the same plans as other industries.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        "Fixed" and "defined" would be roughly synonyms in this usage, which is why no one understood you. Defined contribution everyone would have understood to be in opposition of defined benefit.
      - haldujai 3y ago
        From my job search as a physician. Literally no private practice job I’ve interviewed at or heard of provides defined-benefit retirement, if you know one let me know. Similarly I don’t know of many non-medicine jobs that still offer this either, but they do offer defined-contribution plans and GlassDoor suggests Google matches 7%. The super high income (radiology) jobs people are alluding to here (500k-1m) are structured as partnerships that don’t offer employer contributions (depending if you own your own facilities you can potentially exit for a lump-sum at retirement, if you are just part of a hospital based group you don’t have any assets other than the contract so it’s like a 1-200k exit similar to the buy-in). My surgeon friends in that income bracket are also all fee-for-service/eat what you kill rats that also don’t get employer retirement contributions/benefits or equity. A lot of us don’t even get paid sick days. The jobs that offer you defined-benefit or employer contributions for retirement are academia or HMOs which is like 250-350k in radiology. In Canada we’re technically corporations (for tax deferral) and consequently don’t even have RRSP (401k/IRA equivalent) contribution room (unless you pay yourself in salary). But there’s no employer matching/contribution in either case.
  - hansthehorse 3y ago
    Many of the doctors at the VA I go to are retired then took the VA job. They see 8 to 10 patients a day and spend between 20 to 30 minutes with each. They work 8am to 4pm and go home. On the other hand surgeons and their support staff have crazy schedules.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  That is BS, a big load of BS. There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. This thread must have a lot of top FAANG's managers posting this morning.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    An above average eye surgeon in the US with a few years of experience is the rough equivalent of a middle manager in terms of age and could be in terms of rarity.
  - hn976827 3y ago
    > There are a ton of people in tech that struggle, and reach 50 just to be nearly living on the street. In the literal sense I doubt that. If they are "nearly living on the street" then they seem to have issues handling money. Literally everybody else around then is making less and is not in the street either. Or are you saying that the lady behind the Walmart cashier or the pizza place guy or the girl moving the office lawn all make more than the tech guy? Hardly. In the figurative sense, sure, some of them may not have a big detached single-family house with two big BMWs in front, but if anything below that is considered "nearly living on the street" then it's your perspective that needs some adjusting, not mine.
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      Perhaps I was over-stating. But it is true, that tech people retiring at 50 and living comfortably is a real small minority, not some common occurrence like everyone in tech is swimming in gold. Living on street was hyperbole, but I do see a lot of tech people working long hours, on -call 24-7, dealing with bad bosses, all because of the 'fear' of living on the street. So maybe they aren't close to the street. And if over 50, that fear drives the 'do-whatever-it-takes-even-if-pulling-another-weekend'. It isn't some golden retirement, that is so bogus. Its like there is some assumption that everyone in tech got stock options at google.
      - hn976827 3y ago
- 8b16380d 3y ago
  That’s not true at all.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  If you got on the FANG train around the time they dropped the standards and kept the comp going. Tech is boom/bust. Ask a grandpa who worked for DEC in the 80s how that worked out for him.
JJMcJ 3y ago
A 50 year old physician or lawyer, if they are good, is at the absolute top of their profession and can 90% expect work another ten or twenty or more years still earning top dollar. A 50 year old non-management programmer? Look forward to having 23 year olds asking if you know what an array is for the rest of your work life.
- weatherlite 3y ago
  I don't agree about lawyers actually. If you haven't made it into something close to partner level or have extremely valuable knowledge and skillset you'll be seen as a liability. There's plenty of people in their late 20s to early 40s who will be preferred over you. Same goes for most jobs actually, doctors are the outliers. For now...wait till A.I makes progress in medical circles.
  - singleshot_ 3y ago
    One fact I can add to your knowledge is that at my firm, the lawyers who have been practicing longest have the highest billable rate. One more is that I very, very rarely ask any 29 year old lawyers at my firm any questions, although I love them dearly. When I need someone to review my work or answer a ticklish question, I seek out 72 year olds and ask them. I'm not sure who clients prefer but when it comes to legal problems I prefer elder lawyers.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      Yes they are partner level. How many 50 year old lawyers has your firm hired recently? Ones who haven't advanced to partner?
      - weatherlite 3y ago
        To be clear I'm not saying this never happens (hiring of mid level 50 year olds), I'm just saying it's just as rare as in tech. I don't think I'm imagining this, it's a pretty well established statistic that after 50 job participation rates begin to fall.
candiddevmike 3y ago
It's interesting that places value seniority and experience so much more in medicine vs tech. Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism. Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer?
- haldujai 3y ago
  I wouldn't say they're valued, the compensation is (with some nuance) based on a work-unit/fee-code which is the same for all of us. The academic component goes up for relevant physicians like it does for any professor-type role. Doctors work longer mostly because you can't fire them unless they're negligent/incompetent (for various reasons including that most are self-employed/contractors either individually or as a group). The only value the hospital places on seniority is that you know the local practice patterns so there's less of a learning curve as compared to someone ewer. > Things change daily in both fields--new procedures, new findings--yet tech seems to have far more ageism. We have continuing medical education requirements but the reality is most of medicine is designed to be easy and guideline based. Weird and wonderful stuff benefits from experience. > Why is an older doctor so much more valuable than an older developer? A 60 year old surgeon is still taking out an appendix, just with newer tools than when they were 30, for the same amount of money as a newer one. I would imagine an older developer would want to be more well-compensated and have career growth focusing on things like architecture or having a team but I defer to practicing developers for their input on why they're not valued.
  - sarchertech 3y ago
    When it comes to value, when my wife interviews for a job (she’s a physician) they fly her out and spend a day taking her to see the sights, so they convince here how great the city is. Then they take her out to a fancy dinner and woo her some more. When I interview at a new job as a very senior engineer (and relatively well known I in my area), I get to jump through 7 rounds of interviews where someone asks me the equivalent of medschool exam questions. If I’m lucky my connections might let me whittle the interview rounds down to 5. There may be 20 people in any given tech stack/industry who are valued the way my wife is by employers.
ChainOfFools 3y ago
As someone in the midst of a difficult career pivot from tech to medicine, I confirm that this is the primary motivation for making the switch at this stage of my life.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

PheonixPharts 3y ago

Even now 300k TC is pretty easy to get for any competent engineer wanting to work for a publicly traded company that can get comp in RSUs. It's also very easy to get a 200k+ remote eng job, even now, that will allow you to spend as much time with your family as you like, rarely have you working past 5pm, and working in predictable, relatively low stress (potentially fun!) problems all day. The job security is a good point, but job security isn't as meaningful for extremely high stress jobs since the risk of burnout is much higher. Doesn't matter if it's easy to get work if you find that work destroying your personal life.

soared 3y ago
Your circle of 2/300k engineers does not represent average people. 99% of Americans should not be able to get a faang job even if the exact park was laid in front of them before college.
- PheonixPharts 3y ago
  I have never worked for a FAANG company, or anything close, and can usually not get in the front door at any "prestigious" company. In my last round of interviews nearly all startups/small companies I talked to where offering 200k+ for remote senior engineers. It's not hard to break 200k remote as a software engineer. If you're not there I highly recommend you start looking around, even in this market, rather than simply dismissing this comp as "prestigious faang only". Personally I think the 500k+ TCs are going to disappear for all but the rarest of cases (this is closer to what FAANG engs that I know make), but 200k+ is likely to be the baseline for the foreseeable future for experienced software engineers.
  - VirusNewbie 3y ago
    Do you make 300k? You said it was “easy to get” so surely you’re above that?
    - PheonixPharts 3y ago

chimeracoder 3y ago

> What ? Most U.S physicians make 300K + after residency Most US physicians also pay for a lot of work-related expenses out-of-pocket (insurance, continuing ed, etc), and due to the nature of tax codes, most that often is not actually deductible in practice (particularly since they'll usually end up paying AMT). There's a lot of variance depending on which specialty you choose and where you work, but as a point of reference: most new attending physicians in metro areas are actually netting less than an engineer in the same area who has been working since graduating college[0]. (And that's before you factor in any student debt, or the opportunity cost of forgoing ~10 years of gainful employment). > with job security set for life. May have been true 40 years ago, but definitely not true today, especially for certain fields. [0] If two people graduate college at the same time, and one goes into medicine and the other goes to work as an engineer, the engineer will easily reach career level (senior) by the time the other person is done with their residency.

nradov 3y ago
All true, but the unemployment rate for licensed physicians is virtually zero. They can always find some kind of job, although they might have to move somewhere undesirable.

foobiekr 3y ago

Exactly. Longevity is much greater outside of tech.