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Ten Thousand Ways to Use Chopsticks
- izzydata 3y agoTime to practice lateral Gangnam style.
- gretch 3y agoAs an ethnic chinese person (grew up in the states but parents immigrated and don't speak english) I've always tried to convey this to my non-asian friends. When we go out to eat together, they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. It's 2 sticks; put the food in your mouth. Did you do it? If so, then you're good. It's not deeper than that. Plenty of times in my family we would just stab stuff because that was the easiest thing to do and no one thinks twice. addendum: growing up, I organically evolved the 'scissorhand' grip. At like ~18 years old, I consciously switched to standard because I was trying to pick up something small and realized my grip lacked precision.
- qumpis 3y agoI thought that parents in China are very strict about instilling "the right" chopstick habits.
- zht 3y agoThere is definitely a right way. But no one would be offended if you didn’t hold it the right way
- ipnon 3y agoYou usually can tell who grew up mainly using chopsticks to eat because they don’t have a standard grip. It’s people who start using them when they’re older who have proper form.
- powersnail 3y agoThat’s just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of the population. There is one alleged proper form, but many adults don’t even do it that way, let alone instilling it on their child. Most parents are cool as long as the child can use the chopstick, which is exactly how adults who don’t hold it the “proper” way come into being. Theoretically, the proper form has some practical advantage. Practically, the difference in utility is minuscule.
- Baeocystin 3y ago>That’s just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of the population. It was absolutely a Big Deal part of table manners when I was a kid, FWIW. SE Asia, southern China, late 70's. FWIW.
- qumpis 3y agoI based my comment on convos with a few Chinese friends, all anecdotes from their childhoods though.
- adhesive_wombat 3y agoMany parents in the UK are very strict about knives and forks, to be fair. Usually in my ham-fisted experience in frustratingly inverse proportion to the likelihood of serving peas and other small vegetables and grains as opposed to easily tackled lumps of beige and gloopy-sauced beans. And, in the UK and China and elsewhere, some parents are, evidently, decidedly not.
- AITree 3y agoYes, it's true that in China, parents often teach their children proper chopstick etiquette and techniques from a young age. This is because chopsticks are a fundamental part of Chinese culture and are used in almost every meal. Parents believe that learning to use chopsticks correctly not only shows respect for the food, but also reflects good manners and discipline.
- ghaff 3y agoAt some point early-on, I decided that the "correct" (don't really even remember which finger at this point--probably middle finger) top knuckle position someone taught me just didn't work for me for whatever reason. So I essentially use two fingertips. >Plenty of times in my family we would just stab stuff because that was the easiest thing to do and no one thinks twice. And, yeah, there are some things like dumplings that conventional chopstick usage just don't really work all that well for with many people. (Per article I was probably taught something like standard rule but use something closer to finger pistol.)
- alanbernstein 3y agoWell it does kinda make sense to think about it explicitly, to make up for lacking the formative experience of growing up using them. But I get your point, it's a funny contrast. I've been wondering recently, how and what age do Chinese households get their children started using chopsticks? You make it sound like there isn't much instruction, if any. In my house, where spoons and forks are available, I think we have to actively encourage our toddler if we want her to try chopsticks.
- ackfoobar 3y agoThis reminds me of the bowling analogy. https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/ https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-th... It's a ball; rolling it down and hit the pins. It's not deeper than that. Just like bowling, some ways to hold them get you more precision and control. Efficiency aside, I don't think they're overthinking it worrying about table manner of other cultures. It's no different from learning which forks to use in a Western formal setting.
- gretch 3y agoI don't really think this is anything like that bowling analogy. -Bowling is an explicit competition. Eating is not. -Bowling has objective markers for performance (160/300). Eating doesn't -Bowling is completely human created (as is software creation). As a result, both are highly abstract. Eating is one of the most basic things we all do The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low. Once the food gets into your mouth and you are able to nourish yourself, the game is solved. Bowling is capped at 300. Software creation is not capped presumably. > It's no different from learning which forks to use in a Western formal setting. Yes I completely agree. In my opinion it's a useless form of gatekeeping used to artificially put people in 1 class over another. This is the type of thing we do when we eat at King Charles' coronation and I reject it.
- ackfoobar 3y agoEvery analogy can be stretched to the point that things don't match up. My original point is only about the skill ceiling. > Bowling has objective markers for performance (160/300). Eating doesn't Neither does software engineering, the thing discussed in the linked article. > The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low. Occasionally foods can be slippery or delicate. Then the grip force (which generates friction) and precision matter.
- midoridensha 3y agoUsing chopsticks is completely human created, just like bowling. Eating is a basic thing, yes, but cavemen didn't use chopsticks or other utensils (as far as we know), they used their bare hands and had little concept of hygiene which humans later created to try to minimize diseases. The skill ceiling for chopsticks isn't that low. Try picking up individual grains of rice with them. Skilled users can do this easily; beginners, not so much. It's far more difficult than using your fingers to grab things and shove them into your mouth, which is something any toddler can do. As for "gatekeeping", I find that one difficult to believe, since it's absolutely the norm for everyone, regardless of class, in Asian nations (namely CJK plus a few others) to use chopsticks for eating. Whereas in western nations, only certain upper-class (or aspiring) people really give a shit about which forks to use. In most Asian restaurants (in Asia), you'll have a really hard time eating if you can't use chopsticks, because it's assumed that everyone can and they don't usually provide western utensils unless it's a western-food restaurant.
- yamtaddle 3y ago> they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them and also haven't put in quite a bit of practice. They may be hoping for tips to make it less difficult.
- robofanatic 3y ago> They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them and also haven't put in quite a bit of practice. This is true with most tools. If you have never used it in your life even a tool as simple as pencil can be challenging.
- yamtaddle 3y agoA pencil's exactly what I was thinking about comparing it to, actually. Spoon, fork, knife... hell, shovel, screwdriver? All easier. Pencils and chopsticks are more precise and require more fine motor control.
- OJFord 3y agoI think chopsticks are more than twice as hard as a pencil (even never having used either) simply because you're trying to use two rods together. (Unless we allow just stabbing stuff I suppose, but that only works with certain foods and generally they won't be the whole meal anyway.)
- oldtownroad 3y agoAs a white person who grew up in the west, I was berated often for holding my knife and fork the “wrong” way and so it’s instilled in me that there is a “right” way to use utensils — thankfully, I only embarrassed myself a few times asking about the right way to use chopsticks before learning.
- yamtaddle 3y ago> I was berated often for holding my knife and fork the “wrong” way and so it’s instilled in me that there is a “right” way to use utensils Norms on that vary country-to-country, as does which hand the fork and knife go in, plus things like cutting a single bite at a time vs. pre-cutting several, or things like using a different hand to hold the fork while cutting versus while picking up food to eat, or keeping them in the same hands the whole time. [EDIT] Oh, and tines-up vs tines-down!
- gretch 3y agoSorry for your experience. In my opinion those people were using chopstick technique as a vehicle for their bullying. Take the chopsticks out of the equation and they are probably doing some other form of gatekeeping.
- Baeocystin 3y agoAs a caucasian who grew up in SE Asia... Lemme tell you, the number of times I was politely but firmly 'corrected' in how to hold chopsticks as a kid (which varied literally from family to family, so there was no way to win this game) is an equal part funny and stressful memory. :D Local parents had Strong Opinions on this!
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoAs a lefty who lived in China for 9 years, they took one look at me and gave up. Something about using the wrong hand to eat with chopsticks just freezing minds.
- xarope 3y agoif everybody is using chopsticks with their right hand, and you use your left, there will be "contention" haha
- sohkamyung 3y agoLeft-hander here. Yes, that's why I'm practising using my right hand to use chopsticks too. It's still weaker and not as flexible as using my left hand to eat, but I'm working on it. :-)
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoYes, tightly packed circular tables were my bane.
- petesergeant 3y agoHa! Was it Thailand? Thailand is weird because you eat food deemed Chinese with chopsticks, and food deemed Thai with a fork and spoon, and displaying some Chinese heritage is a prestige thing
- WastingMyTime89 3y ago> displaying some Chinese heritage is a prestige thing Considering the amount of racism towards Chinese I have encountered in Thailand, I somewhat doubt that.
- kadoban 3y ago> When we go out to eat together, they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. As someone who both learned to use chopsticks as an adult and also taught _several_ people how to use them: what they're likely asking for is the basic hand position to use. It feels real awkward at first, so it's not obvious. The less correct ways feel about as awkward at first, but never actually improve too much, so it's really not a bad thing to ask.
- esturk 3y agoSo you admit the standard grip is "better" than the scissor grip.
- gretch 3y agoYou put the most significant word in your question in quotes, which means that you are putting some kind of special non-standard meaning on it. I can't guess at what you mean. What do you mean is it "better"?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dgeiser13 3y agoAs a white dude: > It's 2 sticks; put the food in your mouth. Did you do it? No. The food is not in my mouth. Now what?
- gretch 3y agoThen I would diagnose your technique and give you some advice. In all of my personal experiences though, I've never seen someone fail on this level. It was almost always anxiety about 'proper' form. Or, they just needed to use a spoon. People forget chinese cuisine comes with a spoon a lot of the time (same with korean) and sometimes the spoon is the better instrument.
- xarope 3y agoor learn to use a bowl and the scoop technique with chopsticks, coz that works too!
- wink 3y agoI actually thought about this a lot until I visited Singapore/Hong Kong. Just put the bowl to your mouth and drink the soup while shoveling the noodles - at first I thought I just saw some hurried people, but at least in food stalls and low key restaurants everyone was doing it. It's also much quicker and you don't really need a lot of chopstick ability...
- dantraztrev 3y agoAlso info about using chopsticks with hand impairment https://www.accessible-japan.com/surviving-without-chopsticks-eating-disability-japan/ https://www.accessible-japan.com/surviving-without-chopstick...
- tonymet 3y agoAny effort to evangelize chopsticks to the west is a welcome one. "chopstick shaming" should be avoided. There are so many useful applications including cooking, preparing, serving food. Chopsticks are effectively sanitary fingers (when used politely). Years ago i used chopsticks to eat snacks at work, in order to keep my keyboard clean. People ridiculed me in a friendly way. They've since come around. Since covid people have become more conscious of sanitation and to a lesser degree table etiquette and i'm glad to see chopsticks supporting both of those trends.
- blacksmith_tb 3y agoI agree, and I find them useful for even non-food tasks like fishing small things out of jars, but they aren't really 'sanitary fingers' if you're in the middle of eating with them, are they? They must have at least a little saliva on them, unless you make a point of only dropping things into your open mouth?
- pengaru 3y agoThey're more finger extending isolators than sanitary fingers.
- Filligree 3y agoYour own saliva. The point is you’re not ferrying bacteria from the meeting rooms to your mouth.
- yongjik 3y agoAs a Korean, I can confirm that chopsticks serve as a great germ distributor. Their ends go into your mouth and then end up poking everything else on the table. :)
- ackfoobar 3y agoSome restaurants provide two sets of chopsticks of different colours for this reason. Use one to pick up the food, use another to eat with.
- JKCalhoun 3y agoMy foreign exchange student (Japanese, FWIW) told me I held chopsticks wrong, ha ha. I can't quite find the exact way I hold chopsticks on the chart — maybe Finger Pistol but my middle & ring have a good grip on the lower stick. I am pretty sure I learned by looking at the little pictures on the chopsticks wrapper when we ordered Chinese food. (There was some confusion in the text — something about "Tuck under thurnb...")
- abudabi123 3y agoAn interesting challenge is for Tesla Bot Optimus to function at an eating house and intervene when a 6 year old is operating the chopsticks subergonomically and the parents don't know howto. Which of the East Asia cultures can train the best A.I.? More challenging than the team sport robo football tournaments.
- zwieback 3y agoIs there a difference in level of chopstick decorum between Japanese and Chinese?
- anigbrowl 3y agoYes. Besides the grip (where the standard matters more), Japanese food culture emphasizes particular ways of picking things up. Stabbing a piece of food with your chopstick is considered poor manners.
- modernpink 3y agoI believe this goes back to the ancient Shinto belief that all beings are inhabited by kami (gods). Therefore to pierce a food is to pierce the god within. This is also why origami developed more broadly in Japan, because paper cutting (a Chinese artform) would damage the kami whereas folding fortified the kami. That is why much origami is of animals. There is also a belief that all food prepared in Japan is given "as is": a crafted piece given down from a master sushi chef, a wagashi artisan, or a tonkatsu expert. Sliced, shaped and formed as a bespoke morsel for the diner, not to be tampered with, but to be appreciated whole.
- esturk 3y agoThe "roll" angle (as in roll/pitch/yaw) w.r.t. your elbow is relevant.
- krispyfi 3y agoYes. For example, in Japan, resting your chopsticks by leaving them stuck vertically in your bowl of rice, and passing food directly from your chopsticks to someone else's chopsticks, are both discouraged because they remind people of funeral customs.
- dylanzhangdev 3y agoIn China, especially in the northern provinces, sticking chopsticks vertically into food is also reviled by adults, as this method is only used to offer sacrifices to deceased ancestors
- mastermedo 3y agoMost of my Eastern friends use the scissorhand grip, while my Western friends use a mix of righthand rule / standard. TIL thanks!
- crumpled 3y agoThe emoji at "Scissorhand" is one of the defective scissor glyphs. Just an observation. This page is great. I was just discussing chopstick techniques last night during dinner with my 5-year-old.
- kibwen 3y agoChopsticks themselves are not homogenous: https://nadhrahwritesatrefruit.medium.com/the-different-designs-of-chopsticks-in-asia-5ac5f264f6f9 https://nadhrahwritesatrefruit.medium.com/the-different-desi... Different countries favor different chopstick designs and materials, which can influence the comfort of different grips.
- dirtyid 3y agoI'm still struggling to find a comfortable grip for korea's flat steel chopsticks.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- _ZeD_ 3y agostill trying to understand what's wrong with fork and spoon to eat
- midoridensha 3y agoI challenge you to try eating potato chips or cheetos with a fork and spoon.
- waste_monk 3y agoYou are free to not use chopsticks, and most places will happily provide western cutlery if you can't use them. It is easier to handle some kinds of food with chopsticks however, and they're versatile for cooking as well as dining. Why limit yourself?
- neom 3y agoRandom story: My wife's Korean family always comment on how I'm better at using chopsticks then them, it's something that always seems to come up. In fact one of the first things my wife proudly said to my in-laws when we first met was "look he's so much better at chopsticks than us" - I just graciously declined the compliment, insisted it's not true etc and moved on, but always makes me chuckle at bit and I've never asked why they think that for fear of appearing rude (or that they're being polite because I'm white). Thing is... I find Korean chopstick style way easier to use than Chinese. I learned to use chopsticks on Chinese sticks + Lateral Chick held at the very very top of the sticks, these days I mostly use standard, and adjusting to Korean chopsticks from Chinese is almost like moving from driving stick to auto. I guess the sticks matter as much as a grip. :)
- wahern 3y agoBeetle mandibles looks close to the grip for using spoons or forks as tongs, which skillful waiters sometimes make use of at a restaurant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4-X7NZ2cFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4-X7NZ2cFw That's a technique that will turn heads regardless of one's chopstick-using heritage.
- murphyslab 3y agoOne piece of analysis missing from Macrosticks is how hand size and shape is influencing individuals' preferred hold. The author seems to have an underlying thesis that it's all about how the holder learned, but I don't believe it. I learned at ~8 and my "ah ha!" moment came when I realized that it was easier to hold chopsticks with my left hand despite writing right handed. Now I can do it well enough with both hands. My hold is somewhat like the "right hand rule" grip, although the lower chopstick fits into the groove of my thumb unlike the reference photos. And while I've tried other grips — as demonstrated to me by Asian friends — they've never "fit" with my relatively large hands.
- sohkamyung 3y agoI believe it is mentioned, but not on that particular page. See this one [1] > Anatomical differences in human hands > We were given hints about anatomical differences in human hands very early on. The ergonomic marcostick prototypes we created did not work on a few individuals in our test group. We noted that one person in particular could not make the thumb pose required for Standard Grip. Forced adoption of Standard Grip for this user led to chopstick cramps. We created the model T training marcosticks and model H finger helpers in response, but did not think much further about this thumb condition. > It wasn’t until after folks sent us more pictures and videos of their alternative grips, that we started to appreciate this as a prevalent issue. [1] https://marcosticks.org/the-art-and-science-of-chopsticking/ https://marcosticks.org/the-art-and-science-of-chopsticking/
- gnicholas 3y agoThis is great! Reminds me of how my uncle can hold two spoons/forks like chopsticks to serve food quickly and efficiently. I never mastered the technique, but it seems like a useful skill to have!
- robofanatic 3y agoI am in my mid 40s, so far none of them has worked well for me. I have tried to hold it in a lot of different ways but soon lose patience. I guess the food is too tempting for me than trying to figure out how to eat it :-) I always fall back to my backup -> fork. One day I'll master it.
- anon946 3y agoSeems to be more about holding chopsticks. But two ways to use chopsticks that might be less known: Opening a bottle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPLrGfAbhnw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPLrGfAbhnw Also, I couldn't find a video, but at least in my Asian family, we will sometimes cut food like, say, an eggroll by using the chopsticks as a scissors. Lastly, a chopsticks hack is that they are great way to eat food like buttered popcorn without getting your fingers greasy. :-)
- knaik94 3y agoOne thing I see most online guides not mention is the idea of changing grips depending on the food/task or how your hand is feeling. Certain grips take more energy than others, and different style of chopsticks require different grips too. Chinese cooking chopsticks are so versatile in the kitchen, but require a different set of techniques being 13 to 17 inches. When using chopsticks to pick up medium sized things like popcorn, my grip is further back on the chopsticks and usually a standard grip because it feels less tiring and gives me more control. When I am picking up something very small or heavy, I often switch to something closer to the vulkan grip, because using the pads on my ring finger gives me more leverage, fine dexteriry, and a wider range of wrist motion. But it's also more tiring. I learned how to use chopsticks as an adult, because my favorite place to eat lunch was a little korean restaruant. After a few weeks, I felt confident enough to ask one of the owners to critique my technique. He said I was as proficient as him and he found it humerous how I used them for the rice, the standard in Korea is to use a spoon. I feel that for snacks and certain meals, the chopstick is more useful while eating the majority of it, but a spoon is better for getting the last bit. I started using chopsticks for snacking because I found it makes distracted eating harder.
- pachico 3y agoPlease don't get this the wrong way as it's an admission and confession of ethnocentrism: I use chopsticks quite fluently, I like to think, but I still cannot understand why people aren't switching to forks once they try them out for the first time :)
- wink 3y agoI can't really prove it, but as far as environmental impact goes, single use wooden chopsticks are just so much nicer than wooden forks. They usually seem to make them in such a weird texture that my arm hairs go stand up if I lick a wooden fork. Ugh. Eating without full on contact is hard, and wooden knives are also a joke. Also I usually have a pair of plastic chopsticks in my backpack and they're much more compact (despite being longer) and aren't smashed or broken like an emergency plastic spoon. Also you kinda need 3 pieces. Totally different for proper metal cutlery, there I agree.
- pimlottc 3y agoShouldn’t the number be removed from the title as per HN policy? The author as much as admits it’s clickbait in the first sentence.