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Are people aware that there’s an entire industry with 100s of billions in capital already working on these problems? Every time I read one of these articles and

Are people aware that there’s an entire industry with 100s of billions in capital already working on these problems? Every time I read one of these articles and the comments on them, it reads like a reason why we can’t or shouldn’t decarbonize, rather than a call to do the engineering work to fix the problem. Which plenty of people are doing already! This is Hacker News, right?

dheera 3y ago
Yeah exactly, it's not like the world was ready with gas stations for 300M gas cars when that happened, either.
- shipscode 3y ago
  I doubt that the world was actively preventing consumer vehicles from driving on existing infrastructure. It seems like the same people who are forcing the change over to electric vehicles are also actively working to reduce the presence of vehicles on the roads.. I don’t believe they are operating in good faith.
  - callalex 3y ago
    How are these two things related?
  - mbgerring 3y ago
    Utterly precedented. https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/Shoot-the-tires-The-violent-early-history-16520355.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/Shoot-the-tires-Th...
- mbgerring 3y ago
  Right? Imagine, having the full benefit of hindsight, and still responding to such a massive opportunity by grumping that there’s no way it could ever work!
  - throwaway50606 3y ago
    Gas distribution is a very different problem from electricity distribution, though. Gas was initially sold at pharmacies and it worked just fine before specialized shops cropped up. You can't have that with electrical grid.
    - mbgerring 3y ago
      I am literally building an electric jerry can in my workshop right now so that you can carry around car recharges in your trunk. There are solutions to all of these problems and the technology is getting better all the time. All you have to do is stop looking for reasons why it can never work, and start looking for ways to make it work.
      - throwaway50606 3y ago
        I'm not sure how that helps if the grid is already nearly overloaded and we need gas/coal to cover peak demand. The problem is not the charger and its small battery, the problem is generating clean power and transmitting it.
        jonhohle 3y ago
        He’s solving the transmission problem. A portable battery does not need to be charged from the grid. Edit to add: I have about 1.2kW of storage that can be charged by solar in a few hours that takes up about the space of a 5 gallon NATO jerry can. It can be charged thousands of time for the initial price paid. That’s with 2020 tech. Certainly density and efficiency will improve as market pressures increase.
        throwaway50606 3y ago
        How do you charge that small battery? Going to the powerplant with it doesn't seem like a good answer.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  It wasn't a problem because if you went on a longer trip where there was no gas, you just took more gas with you. Lack of gas stations wasn't even an issue for gas cars. People didn't just jump in their cars and go on a totally unplanned drive like we can do now.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  1/3 of the US gasoline pipeline was held hostage or had a massive leak in 2021, shuts down for hurricanes, and had an explosion in 2016. But every individual household can't high speed charge on their residential service 250 miles every day while their air conditioning is running. (/s) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Pipeline_ransomware_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Pipeline_ransomware... https://newrepublic.com/article/161498/huntersville-north-carolina-colonial-pipeline-spill https://newrepublic.com/article/161498/huntersville-north-ca... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Colonial_Pipeline_leak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Colonial_Pipeline_leak
  - bjustin 3y ago
    Why would everyone high speed charge? You can get 250 miles in Model 3 at 12 hours of 6.6kW (~22 mi/hour). Even only eight hours would get 170 miles. Eight hours of charging per night is doable for most people, I imagine.
    - smileysteve 3y ago
      This is what I am pointing out about the article, industry, and fear mongering on this subject. the p50 for daily commute distance in America is ~41 miles; if cars only had a 200 mile range. they'd still last ~4+ days; and that's not accounting for the possibility of "topping" off at commercial electric properties (places or employment/entertainment, transportation hub, gas stations installing chargers)
  - ip26 3y ago
    Air conditioning peak load is 2-7pm, 5.5kW. EV peak load is like 7pm-1am, 6-12kW (and can be dialed back). Frankly they are complimentary. If you have the service to run AC, you already have the service for an EV.
    - smileysteve 3y ago
      Exactly. And modern thermostats and modern electric cars can work around each other, around grid usage dynamics while also extending the average driver's battery life because 8 hours of sleep doesn't require full speed charging.
- worrycue 3y ago
  No one pushed a deadline for transition from horses to ICE car though. It just happened over time at its own pace. People bought cars when they could afford it and there was infrastructure to support them.
throwaway50606 3y ago
Where? I haven't seen anyone upgrading all the powerlines and power stations around my home... I haven't even seen any plans to do so. The local power distribution monopoly says it can't be done unless they raise prices 5x - which nobody wants to pay. Also, power generation - if everyone wants to charge at night, we need to completely change the concept and stop the move to solar energy in favor of nuclear.
- fourseventy 3y ago
  So because you don't see anyone upgrading the powerlines by your house that means that there is no work taking place on the power grid?
  - throwaway50606 3y ago
    Yes, exactly. Where I live it's a political thing so I'd know. The situation now is that they say they're not going to do it because people oppose the higher prices. They even stopped allowing people to connect their solar arrays without large batteries because the grid is that overloaded. (of course they're doing work on it - but definitely not the sort of work required to allow everyone to charge their 1-3 cars per household).
  - Arcanum-XIII 3y ago
    There’s none in the Brussel area of Belgium. In fact, we’re stuck for the foreseeable future to a grid at 3x220 (nearly the only one in the world) because it’s too costly to update the network, cabin and so on. We’re speaking about industrial level of power delivery to charge all those EV. Things need to change at a huge scale and the operator are not ready for that. Source ? I discussed that with my operator for high power need - their answer was to move elsewhere.
    - SECProto 3y ago
      I was curious about the "grid at 3x220" mention so I did some research. Couldn't find what you meant by this, but did find a page from the electric utility in Brussels explicitly saying there are no problems or work required by the EV conversion plans by 2030. https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/an-electricity-grid-ready-for-the-electric-car https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/...
leetcrew 3y ago
it does seem to me that we have decided on a date for the solution (EVs) without high confidence that the dependencies (generation) will actually be ready by that date. but besides that, I'm not convinced that EVs are the best solution to begin with. EVs solve only one of several major issues with ICE vehicles. they still shed tire/brake particles, take up tons of space, encourage sprawling development, and are just as hazardous to pedestrians. I can't help but think this massive investment of time and resources might be better spent on public transit that is actually pleasant to use. pax will typically optimize for travel time over all else. if the fastest option is public transit more often than not, personal vehicles will become a niche that doesn't matter much from an emissions perspective. btw, I am an auto enthusiast. I love driving and I love cars. but it seems to me that most people don't enjoy driving at all. imo we would all be better off if cars were enjoyed intentionally by a small minority of enthusiasts. why spend so much to fix something most people don't like to begin with?
- mbgerring 3y ago
  The massive investment in time in resources is mostly private capital, on the assumption that that capital will see a return, which is unlikely to ever happen with public transit. I agree with you, and I also know we are running out of time to avoid the worst consequences of climate change. I’m resigned at this point to doing whatever is likeliest to get the job done in time. And either way, the busses, trains and ferries all need to be electrified too, and any grid improvements, advancements in battery tech etc. will also help those efforts.
- JoshTriplett 3y ago
  > but it seems to me that most people don't enjoy driving at all. While many people don't enjoy driving, many people do prefer cars as a mode of transit. Don't assume that people "don't like cars", whether or not they like driving as an activity. People overwhelmingly prefer cars. > if the fastest option is public transit more often than not That's a very high bar to reach. And you also have to take into account the hassle of transit not actually getting you where you want to be. It's one thing to have a transit system that can get you between cities or to a large general area; it's another to have a transit system that can get you from an arbitrary door to an arbitrary door, which a car can do.
api 3y ago
It’s not a technology problem. I expect to see grid failures in some areas for a while because of general NIMBY opposition and bureaucratic inertia preventing expansion from occurring until it’s an acute problem.
traceroute66 3y ago
> Are people aware that there’s an entire industry with 100s of billions in capital already working on these problems? I'm confused, what problem do you think they are fixing ? Because they cannot fix an inherently practical problem. In most countries on this planet, you have three "problems" when it comes to EV demand, and none of them can be fixed by "100s of billions in capital" by private industry. Thee are : 1) There is (usually) only one national grid 2) There are only a finite number of power stations 3) Most people live in cities and in apartments / dense-housing This leads to two (because there's nothing you can do about point 3) super-hard, super-expensive "problems" that need fixing for all these EVs: 1) Expanding the grid is effectively a non-starter, the cost would be measured in trillions, not billions. 2) Building new power stations takes decades, not years. And right now there are not enough of them. 3) As I said, there's nothing you can do about point (3), i.e. it's simply not remotely viable that everybody can magically have solar panels and battery storage at home. Most people don't have the space. And expecting everyone to retro-fit is, realistically, a non-starter. Now, on the subject of power stations, you will probably come back and say "but, but .... renewables". Well, yes, renewables are cool and quick(er) to build than power stations, but they are not the panacea. Grid-level bulk solar is cool, but all those panels take vast amounts of space that most countries don't have to spare. Solar is also cool, until it gets dark at night. Grid-level wind is cool, but then on hot summer days there's not much wind. So you end up relying back on the old-school power generation (nuclear, coal, gas etc.). Hydro is cool, but for obvious reasons not available everywhere. And nobody's going to be rushing out building large numbers of new dams any time soon. Bulk-storage in batteries at grid level is not feasible to deal with all millions of EVs coming on stream. You would need millions of batteries, which as we know, batteries don't last forever.... So ultimately whether you love em or hate em, you still need old-school power generation. Which brings us neatly back to my point (2) ... Building new power stations takes decades, not years. And right now there are not enough of them. Hence 2030 is a pipe dream.
- skybrian 3y ago
  You don’t necessarily need “most people” to have a big and growing business, though. Getting electric cars into the garages of people in suburban and rural areas is still a pretty big market, and in these places there is often room to install solar panels. That will reduce load on the grid, which can be used for other purposes, including electric car charging in cities. Also, maybe we shouldn’t expect one kind of transportation to dominate like happened for cars? There can be different solutions for different use cases. Driverless taxis, electric bikes, and public transportation all work sometimes, and they can be usefully combined.
pastacacioepepe 3y ago
> it reads like a reason why we can’t or shouldn’t decarbonize Only if you give in to the strawman that it's either fossil fuel or EV, when in fact our top priority should be retiring most private cars anyway. Independently from the engine type, developing our infrastucture and cities around car usage is unsustainable.
juujian 3y ago
I won't hold my breath for that turn of events. Grid companies are not exactly known for proactively investing into infrastructure.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- vkou 3y ago
  Grid companies are some of the most competent corporations I've interacted with. The power is mostly on, I don't need to play stupid telephone customer support games with them, and they keep things running. Maybe PG&E, or whatever they have in Texas sucks, but as a general rule of thumb, I wouldn't assume that grid operators are stupid.
ianai 3y ago
Not only that, but it’s obviously a huge market opportunity from bottom up. Kids looking to enter the workforce should be able to expect all sorts of work related to electrification-electricians, engineers, etc. It’s likely to actually create niches and market segments.
rawfan 3y ago
Exactly. I work for a larger company that builds and maintains the electrical grid in many European countries. I won’t say there are no challenges, but I can assure you that we are confident that we can build the solution(s) to sustain no only EVs but everything else that’s gonna rely on the grid. One of the biggest show stoppers is actually current regulation. And even here, at least my employer is building and investing in solutions as if the required market regulation changes were already in place.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  >I work for a larger company that builds and maintains the electrical grid in many European countries. Also European here. The problem for EV charging is gonna be the last mile, not the grid. Upgrading the grid is the easiest part. The charging points are the painful part to fix that nobody seems to have an answer to or want to talk about in the first place. In my city, most of the residential streets where people live (in flats) are full of parked cars on both sides of the street. How will all those cars charge once they switch to EV? Will the already narrow sidewalks be full of charging stations next to each parking spot, and will pedestrians constantly be tripping over the charging cables? How will this work? Currently all EV owners here are well off people who own their houses in the suburbs or in rural areas, and can install their own chargers at home for their EVs, but how will the people living in flats who have to park on the street charge their cars? Effectively those who aren't well off to own their own houses are penalized by the lack of EV charging infrastructure where they live. Ideally, we'd get rid of private cars in the city completely and replace them with better public transport and cycling infrastructure, but looking at the real life facts, there's no political will to push car owners out of car ownership, and car owners are by far a majority of the voting population, even among the low earners. And upgrading the public transport and making it run frequent enough to make people give up cars ownership voluntarily would most likely make tickets too expensive for car owners to justify. And public transports is already subsidized. Edit 1: Also, regarding the last mile charging infrastructure stations, another one of their weaknesses compared to filling up with gas at a gas station, is that they suck, the billing & payment systems sucks, the UX sucks and they often have faults or are broken, making them unusable or seeing people struggle to get them to work. MKBHD did a video on this proving this point and is definitely worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2qJKU8t2k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2qJKU8t2k Edit 2: Another issue with EV adoption is the EV range and charging durations. Many Europeans hop into their cars in the summer and drive their family to the south of Europe hundreds or thousands of km. The range of a cheap EV still is subpar compared to a cheap ICE and so is the charging duration VS the refueling duration, making long holiday trips by EV a nightmare compared to a ICE car. We'd need a lot more charging points around these routes to cover summer or winter holiday trafic, and by a lot more, I mean a lot a lot more. Even some gas stations can have 15-20 minute queues for a 3 minute tank refuel at peak holiday season in summer or winter near popular routes like Austria, Italy or Croatia, so imagine what EV charging queues would look like when a charge easily needs 30 minutes instead of 3.
alex_lav 3y ago
Yeah I was going to respond “Well it better get ready I guess”, as I agree, this content reads like disparagement instead of encouragement
pmlnr 3y ago
... Are you aware how shitty the grid in most residential areas actually is?
PM_me_your_math 3y ago
You're going to replace every transmission line, every transformer, and retrofit every substation in the United States in 7 years? Ok...
jmspring 3y ago
California, a state with many EVs, can’t keep its power grid going during high winds, heat waves, etc. PG&E and other power companies are a long way from fixing this issue.
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
As someone who works in the industry, the projects to increase grid capacity are dependent on investment mostly from the government or from large customers of which there are few. It's not like executives at every public utility are excited to sink themselves further into debt, assuming they can get access to all the capital, and betting it all on a completely unrelated industry and an unsure customer base.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I can only speak for my own observations but I think it comes down to the fact that fewer people are trusting “the market” to competently predict, deliver and maintain critical fundamental infrastructure for human life. “The market will take care of that problem” seems to only benefit a small group of people and we’re not seeing the requisite proof that any future development will do any better

dheera 3y ago

Yeah exactly, it's not like the world was ready with gas stations for 300M gas cars when that happened, either.

shipscode 3y ago
I doubt that the world was actively preventing consumer vehicles from driving on existing infrastructure. It seems like the same people who are forcing the change over to electric vehicles are also actively working to reduce the presence of vehicles on the roads.. I don’t believe they are operating in good faith.
- callalex 3y ago
  How are these two things related?
- mbgerring 3y ago
  Utterly precedented. https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/Shoot-the-tires-The-violent-early-history-16520355.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/Shoot-the-tires-Th...
mbgerring 3y ago
Right? Imagine, having the full benefit of hindsight, and still responding to such a massive opportunity by grumping that there’s no way it could ever work!
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  Gas distribution is a very different problem from electricity distribution, though. Gas was initially sold at pharmacies and it worked just fine before specialized shops cropped up. You can't have that with electrical grid.
  - mbgerring 3y ago
    I am literally building an electric jerry can in my workshop right now so that you can carry around car recharges in your trunk. There are solutions to all of these problems and the technology is getting better all the time. All you have to do is stop looking for reasons why it can never work, and start looking for ways to make it work.
    - throwaway50606 3y ago
      I'm not sure how that helps if the grid is already nearly overloaded and we need gas/coal to cover peak demand. The problem is not the charger and its small battery, the problem is generating clean power and transmitting it.
      - jonhohle 3y ago
        He’s solving the transmission problem. A portable battery does not need to be charged from the grid. Edit to add: I have about 1.2kW of storage that can be charged by solar in a few hours that takes up about the space of a 5 gallon NATO jerry can. It can be charged thousands of time for the initial price paid. That’s with 2020 tech. Certainly density and efficiency will improve as market pressures increase.
        throwaway50606 3y ago
        How do you charge that small battery? Going to the powerplant with it doesn't seem like a good answer.
olyjohn 3y ago
It wasn't a problem because if you went on a longer trip where there was no gas, you just took more gas with you. Lack of gas stations wasn't even an issue for gas cars. People didn't just jump in their cars and go on a totally unplanned drive like we can do now.
smileysteve 3y ago
1/3 of the US gasoline pipeline was held hostage or had a massive leak in 2021, shuts down for hurricanes, and had an explosion in 2016. But every individual household can't high speed charge on their residential service 250 miles every day while their air conditioning is running. (/s) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Pipeline_ransomware_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Pipeline_ransomware... https://newrepublic.com/article/161498/huntersville-north-carolina-colonial-pipeline-spill https://newrepublic.com/article/161498/huntersville-north-ca... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Colonial_Pipeline_leak https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Colonial_Pipeline_leak
- bjustin 3y ago
  Why would everyone high speed charge? You can get 250 miles in Model 3 at 12 hours of 6.6kW (~22 mi/hour). Even only eight hours would get 170 miles. Eight hours of charging per night is doable for most people, I imagine.
  - smileysteve 3y ago
    This is what I am pointing out about the article, industry, and fear mongering on this subject. the p50 for daily commute distance in America is ~41 miles; if cars only had a 200 mile range. they'd still last ~4+ days; and that's not accounting for the possibility of "topping" off at commercial electric properties (places or employment/entertainment, transportation hub, gas stations installing chargers)
- ip26 3y ago
  Air conditioning peak load is 2-7pm, 5.5kW. EV peak load is like 7pm-1am, 6-12kW (and can be dialed back). Frankly they are complimentary. If you have the service to run AC, you already have the service for an EV.
  - smileysteve 3y ago
    Exactly. And modern thermostats and modern electric cars can work around each other, around grid usage dynamics while also extending the average driver's battery life because 8 hours of sleep doesn't require full speed charging.
worrycue 3y ago
No one pushed a deadline for transition from horses to ICE car though. It just happened over time at its own pace. People bought cars when they could afford it and there was infrastructure to support them.

throwaway50606 3y ago

Where? I haven't seen anyone upgrading all the powerlines and power stations around my home... I haven't even seen any plans to do so. The local power distribution monopoly says it can't be done unless they raise prices 5x - which nobody wants to pay. Also, power generation - if everyone wants to charge at night, we need to completely change the concept and stop the move to solar energy in favor of nuclear.

fourseventy 3y ago
So because you don't see anyone upgrading the powerlines by your house that means that there is no work taking place on the power grid?
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  Yes, exactly. Where I live it's a political thing so I'd know. The situation now is that they say they're not going to do it because people oppose the higher prices. They even stopped allowing people to connect their solar arrays without large batteries because the grid is that overloaded. (of course they're doing work on it - but definitely not the sort of work required to allow everyone to charge their 1-3 cars per household).
- Arcanum-XIII 3y ago
  There’s none in the Brussel area of Belgium. In fact, we’re stuck for the foreseeable future to a grid at 3x220 (nearly the only one in the world) because it’s too costly to update the network, cabin and so on. We’re speaking about industrial level of power delivery to charge all those EV. Things need to change at a huge scale and the operator are not ready for that. Source ? I discussed that with my operator for high power need - their answer was to move elsewhere.
  - SECProto 3y ago
    I was curious about the "grid at 3x220" mention so I did some research. Couldn't find what you meant by this, but did find a page from the electric utility in Brussels explicitly saying there are no problems or work required by the EV conversion plans by 2030. https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/an-electricity-grid-ready-for-the-electric-car https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/...

leetcrew 3y ago

it does seem to me that we have decided on a date for the solution (EVs) without high confidence that the dependencies (generation) will actually be ready by that date. but besides that, I'm not convinced that EVs are the best solution to begin with. EVs solve only one of several major issues with ICE vehicles. they still shed tire/brake particles, take up tons of space, encourage sprawling development, and are just as hazardous to pedestrians. I can't help but think this massive investment of time and resources might be better spent on public transit that is actually pleasant to use. pax will typically optimize for travel time over all else. if the fastest option is public transit more often than not, personal vehicles will become a niche that doesn't matter much from an emissions perspective. btw, I am an auto enthusiast. I love driving and I love cars. but it seems to me that most people don't enjoy driving at all. imo we would all be better off if cars were enjoyed intentionally by a small minority of enthusiasts. why spend so much to fix something most people don't like to begin with?

mbgerring 3y ago
The massive investment in time in resources is mostly private capital, on the assumption that that capital will see a return, which is unlikely to ever happen with public transit. I agree with you, and I also know we are running out of time to avoid the worst consequences of climate change. I’m resigned at this point to doing whatever is likeliest to get the job done in time. And either way, the busses, trains and ferries all need to be electrified too, and any grid improvements, advancements in battery tech etc. will also help those efforts.
JoshTriplett 3y ago
> but it seems to me that most people don't enjoy driving at all. While many people don't enjoy driving, many people do prefer cars as a mode of transit. Don't assume that people "don't like cars", whether or not they like driving as an activity. People overwhelmingly prefer cars. > if the fastest option is public transit more often than not That's a very high bar to reach. And you also have to take into account the hassle of transit not actually getting you where you want to be. It's one thing to have a transit system that can get you between cities or to a large general area; it's another to have a transit system that can get you from an arbitrary door to an arbitrary door, which a car can do.

api 3y ago

It’s not a technology problem. I expect to see grid failures in some areas for a while because of general NIMBY opposition and bureaucratic inertia preventing expansion from occurring until it’s an acute problem.

traceroute66 3y ago

> Are people aware that there’s an entire industry with 100s of billions in capital already working on these problems? I'm confused, what problem do you think they are fixing ? Because they cannot fix an inherently practical problem. In most countries on this planet, you have three "problems" when it comes to EV demand, and none of them can be fixed by "100s of billions in capital" by private industry. Thee are : 1) There is (usually) only one national grid 2) There are only a finite number of power stations 3) Most people live in cities and in apartments / dense-housing This leads to two (because there's nothing you can do about point 3) super-hard, super-expensive "problems" that need fixing for all these EVs: 1) Expanding the grid is effectively a non-starter, the cost would be measured in trillions, not billions. 2) Building new power stations takes decades, not years. And right now there are not enough of them. 3) As I said, there's nothing you can do about point (3), i.e. it's simply not remotely viable that everybody can magically have solar panels and battery storage at home. Most people don't have the space. And expecting everyone to retro-fit is, realistically, a non-starter. Now, on the subject of power stations, you will probably come back and say "but, but .... renewables". Well, yes, renewables are cool and quick(er) to build than power stations, but they are not the panacea. Grid-level bulk solar is cool, but all those panels take vast amounts of space that most countries don't have to spare. Solar is also cool, until it gets dark at night. Grid-level wind is cool, but then on hot summer days there's not much wind. So you end up relying back on the old-school power generation (nuclear, coal, gas etc.). Hydro is cool, but for obvious reasons not available everywhere. And nobody's going to be rushing out building large numbers of new dams any time soon. Bulk-storage in batteries at grid level is not feasible to deal with all millions of EVs coming on stream. You would need millions of batteries, which as we know, batteries don't last forever.... So ultimately whether you love em or hate em, you still need old-school power generation. Which brings us neatly back to my point (2) ... Building new power stations takes decades, not years. And right now there are not enough of them. Hence 2030 is a pipe dream.

skybrian 3y ago
You don’t necessarily need “most people” to have a big and growing business, though. Getting electric cars into the garages of people in suburban and rural areas is still a pretty big market, and in these places there is often room to install solar panels. That will reduce load on the grid, which can be used for other purposes, including electric car charging in cities. Also, maybe we shouldn’t expect one kind of transportation to dominate like happened for cars? There can be different solutions for different use cases. Driverless taxis, electric bikes, and public transportation all work sometimes, and they can be usefully combined.

pastacacioepepe 3y ago

> it reads like a reason why we can’t or shouldn’t decarbonize Only if you give in to the strawman that it's either fossil fuel or EV, when in fact our top priority should be retiring most private cars anyway. Independently from the engine type, developing our infrastucture and cities around car usage is unsustainable.

juujian 3y ago

I won't hold my breath for that turn of events. Grid companies are not exactly known for proactively investing into infrastructure.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vkou 3y ago
Grid companies are some of the most competent corporations I've interacted with. The power is mostly on, I don't need to play stupid telephone customer support games with them, and they keep things running. Maybe PG&E, or whatever they have in Texas sucks, but as a general rule of thumb, I wouldn't assume that grid operators are stupid.

ianai 3y ago

Not only that, but it’s obviously a huge market opportunity from bottom up. Kids looking to enter the workforce should be able to expect all sorts of work related to electrification-electricians, engineers, etc. It’s likely to actually create niches and market segments.

rawfan 3y ago

Exactly. I work for a larger company that builds and maintains the electrical grid in many European countries. I won’t say there are no challenges, but I can assure you that we are confident that we can build the solution(s) to sustain no only EVs but everything else that’s gonna rely on the grid. One of the biggest show stoppers is actually current regulation. And even here, at least my employer is building and investing in solutions as if the required market regulation changes were already in place.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago
>I work for a larger company that builds and maintains the electrical grid in many European countries. Also European here. The problem for EV charging is gonna be the last mile, not the grid. Upgrading the grid is the easiest part. The charging points are the painful part to fix that nobody seems to have an answer to or want to talk about in the first place. In my city, most of the residential streets where people live (in flats) are full of parked cars on both sides of the street. How will all those cars charge once they switch to EV? Will the already narrow sidewalks be full of charging stations next to each parking spot, and will pedestrians constantly be tripping over the charging cables? How will this work? Currently all EV owners here are well off people who own their houses in the suburbs or in rural areas, and can install their own chargers at home for their EVs, but how will the people living in flats who have to park on the street charge their cars? Effectively those who aren't well off to own their own houses are penalized by the lack of EV charging infrastructure where they live. Ideally, we'd get rid of private cars in the city completely and replace them with better public transport and cycling infrastructure, but looking at the real life facts, there's no political will to push car owners out of car ownership, and car owners are by far a majority of the voting population, even among the low earners. And upgrading the public transport and making it run frequent enough to make people give up cars ownership voluntarily would most likely make tickets too expensive for car owners to justify. And public transports is already subsidized. Edit 1: Also, regarding the last mile charging infrastructure stations, another one of their weaknesses compared to filling up with gas at a gas station, is that they suck, the billing & payment systems sucks, the UX sucks and they often have faults or are broken, making them unusable or seeing people struggle to get them to work. MKBHD did a video on this proving this point and is definitely worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2qJKU8t2k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA2qJKU8t2k Edit 2: Another issue with EV adoption is the EV range and charging durations. Many Europeans hop into their cars in the summer and drive their family to the south of Europe hundreds or thousands of km. The range of a cheap EV still is subpar compared to a cheap ICE and so is the charging duration VS the refueling duration, making long holiday trips by EV a nightmare compared to a ICE car. We'd need a lot more charging points around these routes to cover summer or winter holiday trafic, and by a lot more, I mean a lot a lot more. Even some gas stations can have 15-20 minute queues for a 3 minute tank refuel at peak holiday season in summer or winter near popular routes like Austria, Italy or Croatia, so imagine what EV charging queues would look like when a charge easily needs 30 minutes instead of 3.

alex_lav 3y ago

Yeah I was going to respond “Well it better get ready I guess”, as I agree, this content reads like disparagement instead of encouragement

pmlnr 3y ago

... Are you aware how shitty the grid in most residential areas actually is?

PM_me_your_math 3y ago

You're going to replace every transmission line, every transformer, and retrofit every substation in the United States in 7 years? Ok...

jmspring 3y ago

California, a state with many EVs, can’t keep its power grid going during high winds, heat waves, etc. PG&E and other power companies are a long way from fixing this issue.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

As someone who works in the industry, the projects to increase grid capacity are dependent on investment mostly from the government or from large customers of which there are few. It's not like executives at every public utility are excited to sink themselves further into debt, assuming they can get access to all the capital, and betting it all on a completely unrelated industry and an unsure customer base.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

I can only speak for my own observations but I think it comes down to the fact that fewer people are trusting “the market” to competently predict, deliver and maintain critical fundamental infrastructure for human life. “The market will take care of that problem” seems to only benefit a small group of people and we’re not seeing the requisite proof that any future development will do any better