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Element is one of fourteen messaging apps blocked by Central Indian Government
- prmoustache 3y agohow can you ban a client country wide?
- eimrine 3y agoActually we live in 2023 with all kinds of DPI / Great Firewall so every government considers citizens with an internet access as naughty children, with the corresponding appeal.
- rvense 3y agoGovernments make these things called laws. If you don't follow them they have people with boots and clubs that can take your money, lock you away and/or just rough you up a little when they take your phone to look what's on there. They don't have to make it impossible to get the app, they might not even want to make it impossible! Because now instead of surveillance or not, dissidents (well, everyone) have the choice between surveillance and being a criminal that they can Protect and Serve(tm) at their discretion. This is what the politicians mean when they say the laws of mathematics are below the laws of the country, and they're absolutely right. Don't bring tech to a legal fight, you will lose.
- jeroenhd 3y agoLaws exist. As for banning things in practice: forcing ISPs to do IP and DNS level blocking as a start, combined with fining companies or imprisoning their legal representation if they do not comply with national laws. If IP blocking doesn't work, there are things like SNI inspection that can do the trick. If the business in question has no legal representation within the country, blocking payment providers and other services operating within the country from doing business with them is often an easy way to cut off access. This is probably not going to affect Element much, but if such restrictions come from a more economically influential trading bloc (USA, EU, etc.) international companies may be in more trouble. An example of this is trade with Iran; in many countries there aren't many noticeable sanctions, but doing trade will put you on the naughty list of the USA and that can be a significant problem with the American influence on things like payment providers and the internet.
- slashtab 3y agoInstead of finding solution to to terrorism they keep banning aaps. Although I'm using element and it working fine.
- kranke155 3y agoThis is not a terrorism problem come on.
- known 3y ago[dead]
- DoItToMe81 3y agoWhat does their legal department being stationed in the UK mean when the UK passes anti-encryption laws? I hope this isn't a mistake that damages the project.
- antisocialist 3y ago[flagged]
- isanjay 3y agoI really dislike what BJP is doing with internet in india. Proper authoritarian. I hope they lose in Karnataka and other states in coming months.
- wunderland 3y agoMore info on the other apps that were banned: https://m.timesofindia.com/india/government-bans-14-messaging-apps-used-by-jk-terrorists/amp_articleshow/99917838.cms https://m.timesofindia.com/india/government-bans-14-messagin... Currently, all of these are still available on the app stores.
- walrus01 3y agoThe Indian government is incredibly hostile to an open and free internet. It's well documented. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India Just recently the government has ordered all last mile ISPs in Manipur to turn off the internet for the whole region. https://www.google.com/search?q=manipur%20internet&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m https://www.google.com/search?q=manipur%20internet&ie=utf-8&... The Kashmir internet shutdown is also very well documented. https://www.google.com/search?q=kashmir%20internet%20shutdown&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m https://www.google.com/search?q=kashmir%20internet%20shutdow... This is the country that will threaten to imprison you for bringing in a handheld Iridium phone, as a journalist.
- downvotetruth 3y agoQuestion is if phone service would bring in more than dish for Starlink given a ban or if Musk would see it more advantageous to the whole X/Twitter concept.
- jsheard 3y agoTwitter was recently found to be censoring tweets worldwide, not just for users in India, at the request of the Indian government https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/twitter-takes-down-post-on-home-minister-globally/article66711854.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/twitter-takes-down-po...
- xNeil 3y agoSlightly confused - why is this a problem? If the US government asks Twitter to take a tweet down, do you expect them to take it down only in the USA, while leaving it up everywhere else?
- jsheard 3y agoThat's exactly what Twitter has done for most of its history, if India demanded something be removed, that wasn't against Twitters own rules, then it would be blocked in India but remain visible to the rest of the world. That's why the redaction clumsily says the tweet has been "withheld in Worldwide", normally there would be a specific country there instead of Worldwide. It should go without saying that enforcing every state-requested takedown worldwide would be a complete shitshow. A social media site where you can't post anything that angers any government, even the most authoritarian, would be unusable for many purposes.
- bkishan 3y agoI wonder if Signal will be next. Then it will truly mark the beginning of the end for democracy in India.
- isanjay 3y agoBJP won't last forever. Next general elections aren't too far away
- coolg54321 3y agoBJP will be there till there is a strong opposition party, congress is a mess
- isanjay 3y agoI don't think they will as many parliament seats as they did last time. I agree with your point though
- 0xDEF 3y agoThe rest of the world didn't care about Indian politics before the right-wing populist BJP was elected. Many Westerners have seen Modi's name along with the year 2002 so they assume he has been the sole dictator of India since 2002.
- rayiner 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoYou've been crossing well into flamewar lately and what begins to look like trolling in many cases—in effect if not intent (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=troll%20effects%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). You're a formidable commenter who has contributed a great deal to HN, often with minority views and that's fine. But we need you to take a few steps into the intended spirit of the site, because your comments have been trending in very much the inflammatory direction. Can you please review the guidelines and recalibrate? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- kevinak 3y agoGood alternative: https://keet.io https://keet.io
- russelg 3y agoElement is banned, not Matrix. A more realistic alternative would be a client such as FluffyChat.
- Arathorn 3y agoor Cinny, given its country of origin... (https://cinny.in https://cinny.in)
- 3np 3y agoClosed source and proprietary. Not really comparable to FLOSS clients for p2p or federated networks.
- jeroenhd 3y agoCan this talk to other people on Matrix? As for other alternatives, there's a nice list here: https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/ Edit: this seems to be a peer-to-peer alternative chat client. I'm not sure you'll want to use peer-to-peer messengers under a government that issues such bans as the peer-to-peer nature exposes exactly who you talk to and how often. I think the federated model is a lot stronger in preserving privacy (though the Matrix team is running experiments on running peer-to-peer, which would create a very similar model and a similar threat).
- usrusr 3y agoHeh, almost reads as if unlike in the West, Indian crooks are too clever to fall for crypto honeypots like those "anom" phones.
- mftrhu 3y agoWhat does this have to do with Element - the reference client for the Matrix protocol, but still one amongst many - Briar - a peer-to-peer messaging app - or Mediafire, one of the oldest file hosting websites?
- achow 3y agoSeems to be terrorism related and not isolated to Element: The Indian government has blocked 14 messenger mobile apps that were used by terrorists in Pakistan to transmit information to Jammu & Kashmir. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/centre-blocks-14-mobile-apps-used-by-terrorists-in-pakistan-to-send-info-in-jammu-and-kashmir-101682913776616-amp.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/centre-blocks-14-m...
- Gigachad 3y agoIndia is a clown show. They recently banned VLC for piracy.
- ftyhbhyjnjk 3y ago60% politicians hold criminal records. Most are illiterate. Almost all are super corrupt.
- aww_dang 3y agoPolitics rewards dishonesty. All of the incentives are there. What else can be expected? Of course, true believers in Democracy will say, "We'll just vote out the bad ones". How is that working out?
- cies 3y agoA rite of passage for Element/Matrix. Apparently it does it's job so well that gov'ts are afraid on one end (India in this case), and adopting it on the other end (the German govt trying to not be spied on by the US). Element/Matrix is growing up. Element/Matrix is making a dent in the universe. Congratulations!
- villgax 3y agoWow, the rest of world should ban everything that comes out of India if they don't have representation/offices in 200+ countries I guess. Did these clowns miss the memo on how the internet works & what sort of business/applications can be made without needing to be physically present anywhere Jesus.....
- samarthr1 3y agoMy understanding of the issue is that the government of India required executive presence as an insurance of sorts, so that the stick of throwing the local executive in jail can be wielded to get some measure of control. Now, whether that is good or bad is a different matter altogether
- suyash 3y agoGood luck doing business in China without local representative and or for that matter doing the same in the US. Everyone large economy has similar criteria more or less.
- villgax 3y agoYeah right, the last thing we want is to be like them.
- throwaway384629 3y agoYup, no difference in India and China now...
- 3np 3y ago> The Element app is just one of many apps that give access to the Matrix network. A simple parallel is that banning Element because it gives access to the Matrix network is the equivalent to blocking Google Chrome because it gives people access to the web, or Gmail because it gives people access to email. Outlook would have been a better example than Gmail for email.
- veeti 3y agoFWIW Gmail on Android supports other mail providers too.
- ftyhbhyjnjk 3y agoBJP is turning India into North Korean like dictatorship. Modi seems a coward who can't take criticism.
- isanjay 3y agoHe definitely can't take criticism. Over the past decade many public figures were targets of IT raids, right after criticising BJP.
- 3np 3y agoSomething that's not clear from OP: What does "banned" imply? I'm assuming at least Google and Apple are demanded to take them off their stores. What are are consequences if they don't? What about users? Would you be in trouble of LE caught you red-handed using a banned app?
- arihant 3y agoNo, these bans (as I understand it) usually happen under IT Act that apply to service providers and ISPs, not citizens. For example, TikTok is blocked by ISPs and taken off from app stores, and TikTok might itself be fined if they continue to provide service but it’s is not illegal for a citizen to use it. There are very few cases where it’s illegal for a citizen to access some things, but those things are illegal just about everywhere.
- viraptor 3y agoThat would make no sense for Element. That client it not bound to any specific network - you have to specify which matrix server you connect to when using it, so ISPs can't control that without some active probing of all possible endpoints.
- shaan7 3y agoThats the beauty (/s) of Indian IT legislation, it doesn't have to make sense technically. It just needs to make sense to ministers who have no idea how the Internet works. It was funny a decade ago, but now it has become frustrating.
- 0xDEF 3y agoTelegram and Signal are much more popular in India than many if not all of these apps. So why are they not included in this ban?
- jeroenhd 3y agoThis article: https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2023/05/01/14-messaging-apps-banned-in-jammu-and-kashmir-for-spreading-terror.html https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2023/05/01/14-messaging-ap... suggests that the ban has to do with some specific terror plot(s). If this is the true reason and the terrorists used neither Telegram nor Signal, that would be a good reason why one is banned and the other is not.
- kevincox 3y agoThey were so busy spreading a political message that they forgot to help the users. Sure, it sucks that Element was banned but they would highlight the fact that affected users can use other Matrix clients.
- mr_pinnen 3y agoBut they do mention this in the post. > We assume that this ban on Element is a result of a misunderstanding around decentralised and federated services such as Matrix (an open standard for real time communication). The Element app is just one of many apps that give access to the Matrix network. A simple parallel is that banning Element because it gives access to the Matrix network is the equivalent to blocking Google Chrome because it gives people access to the web, or Gmail because it gives people access to email.
- kevincox 3y agoThis implies it but isn't direct. I would have liked to see a specific callout to users telling them how to solve the problem they are having. Instead their are clues scattered around the post in messaging directed at political influence,not problem solving.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- xzax_tyagi 3y agoThey failed to hire a representative for the largest populated country on planet, now crying foul.
- goku12 3y agoThe most populated country and the authorities still don't understand P2P, federation and multiple clients. What makes you believe that: - Element (the company) represents the entire federated network - Users can't access the network if just one point of contact is blocked? Official representation doesn't make sense for matrix, briar, etc.
- prmoustache 3y ago>Some of the mobile applications that have been blocked include Crypviser, Enigma, Safeswiss, Wickrme, Mediafire, Briar, BChat, Nandbox, Conion, IMO, Element, Second line, Zangi, Threema, and others. > While investigating one of these channels, it was discovered that the app did not have a representative in India, making it challenging to monitor activities on the platform. This is basically an indirect validation that most non listed messaging apps supposedly offering e2e encryption such as Whatsapp or Signal have backdoors with access from any government asking for access.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- masklinn 3y agoIs it? Or is it that they’re starting from clients with low usage rates & little to no backing, which would be easier to attack? And / or they’re going at it network bu network?
- jraph 3y ago> This is basically an indirect validation that most non listed messaging apps supposedly offering e2e encryption such as Whatsapp or Signal have backdoors with access from any government asking for access. Not really. At least, I'm not convinced. Signal for instance does not have public channels like Matrix has, maybe that's the big difference. Signal's code can also be audited if in doubt (well, actually, Signal could always provide altered binaries on the App Store and Google Play Store, you'd have to build it yourself to be sure - though they do have reproducible builds for Android [1]). [1] https://signal.org/blog/reproducible-android/ https://signal.org/blog/reproducible-android/
- prmoustache 3y agoHow many people are: - auditing signal source code - recompiling the signal client to make sure they haven't tampered binaries. I remember a blog post from signal showing how to build a compilation environment to validate the source but it was itself relying on docker images that you should first rebuild yourself to make sure the compiler and any other dependencies are the same as the upstream ones.
- 2Gkashmiri 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35825227 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35825227 my submission prior to the blogpost. its funny how element wrote the blog and i was unable to access the page 3-7 times during today. the site doesn't work, then it works 10 minutes later. BTW, AMA.
- prhrb 3y agoI hope they don't ban tor now
- throwawayrocket 3y ago[flagged]
- sokoloff 3y agoMy view is that it's not my business the form of government that another country takes for its internal affairs. I have standing to object when (sadly, not if) my government becomes too authoritarian, when another country breaks a treaty, invades a neighbor, etc, but what they do inside their borders is not my business.
- throwawayrocket 3y ago[flagged]
- throwawayrocket 3y ago[flagged]
- bkishan 3y ago> Indians support NSA accessing data From where exactly did you arrive at this conclusion?
- throwawayrocket 3y agoAfter reading YouTube comments. You don't have to trust me. Just ask your Indian friends
- darthrupert 3y agoThis might be the biggest endorsement for Matrix I've seen in a while.
- TriNetra 3y agoIndia is hosting G20 event in Kashmir but Pakistan doesn't want it to happen peacefully. There's already a terrorist attack [0] in which 5 army personnel lost their lives. As per intel more attacks are being planned in near future. The ban is related to this as per my reading. Not a perfect solution IMO. 0: https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/army-jawans-killed-terror-attack-jammu-kashmir-poonch-2362556-2023-04-20 https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/army-jawans-killed-ter...
- 3np 3y agoRelated, as in an opportunity and convenient excuse.
- vinay_ys 3y agoNot just related. It is the actual matter at hand.
- nerdbert 3y agoIndia doesn't want it to happen peacefully either - the choice of venue was a deliberate provocation.
- 2Gkashmiri 3y agoWhat a stupid way of making connections when they don't exist. Did terrorism start in India since e2ee became available? Was there no terrorism 5 years ago? 10? 20? 30? 40? Years ago? G20 meeting is scheduled for september so what does a random action months ago mean anything? Wasn't there such things last year or 2 years ago? So you are saying Pakistan is suddenly relying on the generosity of element to orchestrate their terror plots? Why are they using off the shelf products and not their own? Your reading is flawed because its painted by the propaganda machinery of the state wanting you to think in that way.
- tortoise_in 3y ago[flagged]
- 3y ago
- AHOHA 3y agoWhen a government goes on banning certain apps/protocols/etc., you know that these didn’t provide what would compromise their users. It also indirectly implies that other apps indeed are either compromised or willing to provide any data, apps like whatsapp, signal, etc., funny part is I did say before -and got downvoted- that any app still uses a phone number as a form of identity/authentication should never be trusted, now you know why.
- DuckFeathers 3y ago[flagged]
- throwawayzzer 3y ago[flagged]
- suyash 3y agoSo the official from Element are indirecting telling users to find a hack in their statement "As much as people in India will be able to trivially circumvent the blocking of the 14 messaging apps ...." ? That won't help their case, just might get a permanent ban from one of the largest countries in the world.